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Pot, porn, and pants that hang low--what causes the busybody reaction to these phenomena?

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:14 AM
Original message
Pot, porn, and pants that hang low--what causes the busybody reaction to these phenomena?
In my view it's a fundamental lack of understanding, and a natural urge to stereotype and dehumanize that which is different. For some people, the idea that other people have a different idea of right/wrong or pleasant/unpleasant or even polite/impolite is offensive and inconceivable. If we find something very unpleasant, offensive or wrong, we have an incredibly difficult time accepting or even attempting to understand why others would see it differently. Something that totally defies definition as objectively "good" or "bad" is a good illustrator--music. How often have you seen people disagree over a musical group as though one opinion is irrevocably valid and any other is objectively "wrong"? There comes a point when the musical taste of two people are so alien to one another that even entertaining the idea that each person has an equally valid opinion becomes abhorrent. This inclination dehumanizes and devalues the person holding the opposing opinion to a dangerous degree.

This phenomenon is also caused by the natural inclination to identify with those most similar to ourselves, dehumanizing those who are different by shunting them into stereotypical groups. Don't nod your head or feel superior yet--we all do this. You may be the most liberal, enlightened individual on this Earth, but I wager that you do it also.

A common example is that of the bad driver--when we see a bad driver belonging to our social class, race and gender we are far less likely to say "that type of person is a bad driver" because we view such a person as an individual. We don't say "Ah, another one of -those- is driving badly." Why? Because our similarity to the person makes us hesitant to stereotype. When we see several bad drivers who belong to an easily identifiable social group that is alien (by race, gender, class, whatever) to us, we are far more likely to start stereotyping the entire group as bad drivers. We stop to say "Ah, that person is an immigrant, a woman, white trash," and if we see the same behavior enough from the same group, we start to associate that trait with the group. Due to how memory works, we don't recall the good drivers from that group because by their nature good drivers are far less memorable. In other words you don't remember the times you win with a full house quite as keenly as you remember the few times you lose with one.

This is why the Duke rape case debate was drawn so bizarrely on gender lines here at DU. The women largely identified with the victim and stereotyped the accused, whereas the men largely identified with the accused and stereotyped the victim. It doesn't matter so much who turned out to be right, since even before -any- definitive evidence was revealed you could witness this phenomenon in the works. A female DUer could easily put herself in the place of the victim, especially if she had bad experiences with abusive men, and a male DUer could easily put himself in the place of the accused, especially if he was particularly sensitive to and worried by false rape accusations.

So with porn, you see people who can't imagine certain types of pornography as being anything but unpleasant exploitation for the female performer and deviant misogynistic fantasy fulfillment for the consumer. They simply find attempting to identify with either abhorrent and unacceptable, and resort to stereotypes while upholding their opinion on a very subjective matter as the one "right" point of view. They vehemently condemn porn as furthering the "sex-class" role of women, yet are far less vocal on the matter of other cinema, literature, painting, music, etc which by their criteria would be as bad or worse in furthering that "sex-class" role. Why? Because they identify more with consumers and producers of music, art, etc., and don't identify with consumers and producers of porn.

With pot, it's the same thing again. Those who see pot as congruent with other far more harmful substances (or as a step down an inevitable road to those substances) are completely unable to identify with the average pot user, whereas they have far less trouble identifying with a drinker or someone who enjoys fatty, unhealthy, addictive foods. Otherwise, threads about people sitting back with a martini or a Big Mac would be as controversial here as the threads about pot.

Low-hanging pants is the same thing. People are incapable of realizing that their own societal standards of propriety are necessarily out of date. Kids always seem to offend their parents' ideas of proper attire with their wardrobe, and today is no different. Whereas the miniskirt was the big no-no in the seventies, somehow those boomers who donned such skirts in defiance of their parents' ideas of propriety now unleash contradictory vitriol on "offensive" clothing that ironically is far less revealing. The claims of it being "tasteless" and "classless" are again just failures to even make the -attempt- to identify with those who wear them.

In all cases, people fail to even make the effort to see the other point of view as valid. Note in all cases there is no clear cut case to be made that active harm is being done to anyone who does such things by choice and under zero duress. When actual harm is being done or rights are being trampled, then subjectivity takes a back seat to protect human rights. But when no harm is being done, and people are very resistant to identifying with the behavior, they grasp at vague indefinite "societal" harm, such as we see in the gay marriage debate. While a good case can be made for such harm, watch out. If your claim for ephemeral societal damage is based on your lack of identification with something others enjoy and do by choice, which infringes on no one's human rights, you may need to take a closer look at your assumptions.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. I agree with you, mostly - except that low hanging pants ARE stupid
I don't see it as a difference in "social attitudes" or lack of understanding on my part - it's just fucking dumb.

I don't think low pants cause societal damage, though, and I don't think it's "wrong" per se in a moral or ethical sense; it's just fucking dumb.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Opinions on such things are fine--they doesn't masquerade as objective truth or support censorship
And yes they are dumb. :D
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Pants that are so tight..
Folks can tell your religion are not all that smart either.

I don't see big pants as any dumber than any other fashion.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. When I was in high school, many people thought that the pegged
pants the boys wore were stupid too. They were so tight at the ankles that you'd think they had to unscrew their feet to get them on.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. I would rather live in a world
with too little camel toe than too much of it.
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LibInternationalist Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. Which "other cinema, literature... etc"
Would be as bad or worse than porn in furthering the sex class role of women? And why?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Need I direct you to the feminist stylings of Too Short?
If you can't see cases of women being valued only as sex objects in popular music and cinema, well, then I really wonder about you. And such examples reach millions more people.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. ....
"the feminist stylings of Too Short"

:rofl: You made me giggle.
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LibInternationalist Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. That doesn't answer my question.
I certainly agree that most aspects of pop culture reinforce the patriarchal idea that women are the sex class.

I asked you to point out examples that are as bad or worse than porn, and to state why you think they are as bad or worse than porn.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Bad or worse is subjective. What do you find so objectionable about porn?
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LibInternationalist Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. The fact that it starkly presents women as sex objects
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 11:05 AM by LibInternationalist
Often to be verbally and physically abused, without the veneer of euphemism that other products of pop culture possess.

ETA - Among other things, which I'm not sure I can express sufficiently well.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Cinema and popular music do all those things on a regular basis
And by the very nature of porn, aren't all the performers sex objects? There's plenty of dominatrix porn where the man is physically/verbally abused, to say nothing of the problems your theory encounters with gay/lesbian porn. There's plenty of dehumanizing abuse without euphemism in cinema and popular music--hip hop and the worst serial killer films often do exactly what you are talking about above.
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LibInternationalist Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. I beg to differ
Cinema and popular music are for the most part simulated and descriptive only. Porn is more often than not video evidence of real women experiencing degradation.

And no, all the performers are not sex objects.

The men in the vast majority of porn are sex *subjects*, acting upon sex objects played by women.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. So in part it's the fact that it's real sex that bothers you?
Why?

Is every woman penetrated by a man by definition a sex object? Assuming no, what particulars turn her into one? What's the difference between a sex object and sex subject?

What specific acts are degradation and which are not? If you're not comfortable with that question, don't you think reasonable people can disagree (men and women) on which acts are degrading? Why should your opinion be more valid than anyone else's?
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LibInternationalist Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #35
49. My opinion is more valid to me, because it is mine.
A subject is one who acts, an object is something that is acted upon.

I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with this answer, but here's a stab - an act is not degrading as long as a person makes a choice to do it that is not constrained in any way whatsoever.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. That's a tough definition of degradation to work with, but I'd agree with you
How you define "constrained" can be difficult--while active coercion and intimidation can be identified, broader societal constraints are difficult to identify and pin down. Do women agree to certain sex acts because they really want to or are they constrained in some way? How do you know for sure? Really tough definition to work with, but I'd agree with you. As long as no one's rights are being violated and all parties consent without coercion, I don't see the degradation aspect.

As for the subject/object debate: Would you see a woman performing oral sex on a man as the male being the object and the female being the subject? What about the other way around? Is it just a societal perception that makes the woman more readily seen as the object?
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. We need less Too short and more Skee Lo
The man just wishes to be a little bit taller... Is that so wrong? WELL IS IT GODDAMIT???
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FredStembottom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. To answer your initial question...
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 10:33 AM by FredStembottom
We "Busybodies" represent a group that has simply never been convinced that the social equivalent of Free Trade leads to the promised land.

In the 60's it was Free Love that would lead us all to a garden of Eden. I remember the claims. I was there. Now I see that no Eden appeared. While an explosion of STD's, divorce-ruined families and the sexualization of children did appear in the time since.

I am no researcher - I have no statistics - but I am damn sure that the utopia that "freeing all you repressions, man" was supposed to bring... didn't arrive.

And I am constantly amazed that lefties (like me) who see that the total lack of rules on the economic side of things leads to corruption, exploitation and powerlessness for millions can be so blind to what a total lack of social rules might bring.

None of this is science. I just always remember what gets promised at the beginning of "revolutions" and compare that with the actual results - and Total Freedom ain't looking good!
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Free trade generates profit by suppressing human rights
I don't see whose rights are being suppressed by a guy's low-hanging pants, or someone smoking marijuana in her house. On porn there are obvious examples of trampled rights in the realm of child pornography, but when performers are there by choice and enjoy the work, and people enjoy the product, again there doesn't seem to be a case for societal harm there. Is the idea that people could enjoy such things just inconceivable to you?
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FredStembottom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. I would say that Free Trade _leads_ to a suppression of Human Rights
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 10:59 AM by FredStembottom
When the heads of corporations are encouraged to "let it all hang out" one of the evils that just might hang out is human rights abuse as a road to even higher profits.

I think people having trouble with greed go on the offensive and concoct economic theories that promise the rest of us that if they are simply allowed to make manifest every economic notion that pops into their heads.... peace and love will be spread by some invisible hand.

I also think that people having trouble with sexual addiction also would have us believe that if they are simply allowed to play out that last fantasy..... peace and love will be spread by some invisible hand.

Ditto with drugs. Having drug problems? There's a theory waiting for you that makes you out to be the avant-garde of a Total Drug Freedom utopia.

I think the rude shock waiting for so many Americans is that there is no Total Freedom. That invisible hands don't arrive. That we are better Americans when we each leaven our freedoms with some doubt about the nature of Freedom.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
79. With economics, it's who the rules favor
If we had trade agreements that prioritized labor and the enviroment over corporations, would you object to them?

The notion that "free love" is behind rising divorce rates is nonsense, IMO. I'm betting it has to do with women not being constrained by total dependence on male incomes is more relevant. Most people who went from "free love" into swinging or polyamory quickly realized that they'd better establish other sets of rules and stick to them if they were going to toss out the ones they were raised with.

All too many people conclude, when they observe others not living by their rules, that those others just don't have any rules at all. This is bullshit. Like if we don't like trade rules that favor corporations we must hate both trade and rules.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
8. Low slung pants=great comedy IMO
I don't have any particular moral dilemna over low slung pants, but with with that said;

I don't really think I need to see some chunky teenager losing his pants as he skate boards around town--Why? Not because I am offended, but because often times the people wearing the pants just look plain silly and I feel guilty laughing at them...But hey to each their own and God knows the pants falling off crowd has provided me with a lot of laughs over the last few years! JMO
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
9. Crass is crass. And flaunting underpants is crass. Let's not gussy this up with "sociology".
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 10:33 AM by WinkyDink
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. What was crass to your parents? To your grandparents?
I assume every aspect of your personal life was totally in conjunction with their religious and social beliefs? No "devil music," I hope.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Are you speaking of in-house private behaviors? Or public, as the OP is? I stayed on-topic.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 10:41 AM by WinkyDink
And for the record, my Grandmother liked Elvis, and my WWII Vet father thought Lennon was a genius.

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Most men wore suits and hats outside in the 30s--would they consider our wardrobes "crass"?
This sort of thing is subjective.
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Get off my lawn, you kids!
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. You know me too well. :)
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. "Busybody reactions"


Well. You may be a "busybody" if it bothers you that people discuss these issues.

Molly I. said it well: The answer to too much free speech is more free speech.

WE are certainly not irresponsible when we discuss these issues and attempt to learn what others believe. For example, I am for complete legalization of all drugs. But I am willing to listen to others explain why maybe that isn't such a great idea to them.

I don't feel compelled to call them names or to tell them they have "no right to speak about this." I listen to their arguments rather than playing keyboard psychologist.

Up above, you go all judgmental yourself in your characterization of those who have complaints about porn. From your post, you make them sound like not so nice or intelligent people.

Actually, "nice people" have the right and the responsibility to discuss what is purchased/consumed in their culture. The funny thing is in the recent porn threads here, I never saw one person who dislikes pornography suggest censorship. I never saw any post which said: "i am going to stop someone else from using porn."

Yet almost to a person, the people who have absolutely no problem with porn cried out in anguish that people wanted to take away their right to view porn. It's ridiculous that a mere discussion of porn creates so much paranoia.

With your post here, you seem to also operate under the delusion that those who don't like porn and wish to discuss it are "busybodies" who want to take away porn. Huh? How about they are just PEOPLE who want to discuss what they don't like about porn?

How about YOU might be the busybody since you seem to seek to censure these people, shame them into not talking about whatever it is they want to talk about?

Why is it so frightening to some when we discuss porn as a topic, even when censorship NEVER enters the discussion?

I think I know which side has a problem with "free speech" where that topic is concerned.

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Where did I ask anyone to stop voicing an opinion? Where did I say anyone wanted to take away porn?
I'm just trying to understand why people so easily condemn others and view their opinions as the wholly valid truth.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
34. Isn't that exactly what you are doing?


Isn't that what many have done here all week : condemn those who don't like porn? Claim that only those who think all porn is the knee's bees are the ones with opinions which are the "only valid truth?"

And let me ask you this; Doesn't the term "busybody" imply that someone wants to limit what someone else does? Did you NOT mention "censorship" yourself above, when in all truth "censorship" was never the issue with the porn threads?

How does discussing the negatives of porn/low pants/pot or anything else equal "limiting what someone else does?"

Are you saying we should never discuss our opinions on porn, pot or visible underwear becasue if we do so, we are merely "busybodies?"

I would suggest YOU are the busybody in attemptimg to shame the discussions others might want to have....
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. I get curious when people condemn others for doing what they enjoy while harming no one
That's my view of a busybody. I don't condemn anyone, and in fact I took pains to point out that almost everyone does this to some extent. Any quotes that show me accusing someone of advocating censorship? Any quotes that show me asking people to shut up and not express their opinions? Let's see them.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Well who do I harm when i discuss why i don't like porn?


Am I harming anyone? What if I enjoy such discussions?

Calling people "busybodies" is a condemnation.






Any quotes that show me accusing someone of advocating censorship

only in your own thread! Scroll down, Pal!


:rofl:

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Post the quotes. I don't see them anywhere
And if you see "busybody" as a condemnation on level with calling someone a misogynist/bigot/racist, well that's interesting to say the least.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. Thank you
I couldn't have said it better.

I will only add this. The OP's suggestion that the discussions of the last few days stem from an older generation's inclination to be "busybodies" could be used to justify any behavior. It belittles the arguments made by dismissing them out of hand as the conservatism of an older generation. In addition to ignoring the merits of what was being said, it also presupposes that those saying it even WERE an older generation, a fact which is most emphatically not in evidence.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #43
51. Thank you


It is really aggravating to be told that you are "anti-sex/pro-censorship/fundy/mental/busybody" just for having a discussion on your likes and dislikes.

To me, the real "old fogies" are the ones who can't discuss the issue. They have Alzheimers or something because they continue to mention censorship as if that is the issue. One trick ponies or one track minds or dementia.

I think i've decided: porn causes dementia.


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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
80. This is very true--I haven't seen any calls for censorship
One antiporn activist I recall once said "This is not about what should or should not be shown, it is about the meaning of what IS being shown." Of course people can disagree about the meaning of any particular instance of porn.
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
15. old people are funny
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
20. I don't like looking at a$$cracks in public, that's why.
Anatomical or political.

I don't really care about the pot or porn, as long as it doesn't involve kids or animals.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
23. The pot thing is just a racist thing - that's easy. So, too, are the low pants, probably....
... Porn? Well, it's porn.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
24. So if I think that low-hanging pant are just plain ridiculous looking
So if I think that low-hanging pant are just plain ridiculous looking I'm a busy-body?

My parents thought my Members-Only jacket was silly. I guess they were busy bodies, too.

If you place too many disingenuous motivations to someone like me, who's opinion is that low-hanging pants are up there in the annals of civilization with green ketchup, leaf-blowers, and the Bay City Rollers, then maybe I'm not the one who needs to further examine my assumptions...
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Having an opinion is fine. When it masquerades as fact or supports censorship, that's different
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 10:47 AM by jpgray
For instance, you share my opinion. :D
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. Who supported censorship of porn?


here we go again.

earth to jpgray:

MERELY DISCUSSING WHY I DON'T LIKE SOME PORN DOES NOT INDICATE I SUPPORT CENSORSHIP.

Over and over, people said this same thing. Over and over and over.

And here you go again, another one who thinks we're going to take away your porn merely because we say we don't like porn.

Doesn't this get old to you people? It's like you are all arguing with yourselves in a corner over censorship when NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT CENSORSHIP.

Maybe porn causes dementia?


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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Calm down. Where did I accuse anyone of doing this?
If you read a hypothetical statement as an accusation, how is that my problem?
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. But you brought up censorship several times up above


I can only conclude that this is your fear or that this is an issue to you. YOU typed the word censorship in your OWN posts.

Why?

As an intelligent person, I can only conclude that you are implying that you view discussions about the relative merits or harm of pornography as support of censorship. You and you alone brought censorship into the discussion.

It's your thread, Pal. Take it where you want it to go but don't tell me to ignore the words you yourself write. Or to ignore their implications....



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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Post the quotes. I said -if- it advocates censorship, it's different than just an opinion
Nowhere do I say someone on DU was doing this, and nowhere do I say that all those who find pornography distasteful advocate censorship. I put out a hypothetical statement and you read it as a directed accusation. What does that say about your mindset here? You've already decided my motivation and my opinions for me based on a stereotyped opponent, not on what I said as an individual. Which is exactly the phenomenon I described above. Thanks for proving my point so beautifully.

:D
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #47
58. Sorry but that ain't gonna fly


Why did you feel the need to bring censorship up in this thread?

YOU are the one who put up this post complaining about those who do not like porn/pot and low pants.

THIS IS YOUR THREAD.

Since the issue is people's discussions on porn/pot/low pants, the posts of yours which follow would have some connection to your OP, no? Or do you just post random crap in your threads?

Is your next post going to say "I like cornflake breading on my fried chicken?"

Because what you post here doesn't have anything to do with your OWN OP?

If you brought up censorship as it relates to your OP, YOU explain it.

It is not up to me to tell you or to guess why YOU brought up censorship.

So explain why you brought up censorship in the context of YOUR OWN THREAD.

Thank you.

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I said I have a problem with people who want to censor behavior they don't like
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 12:02 PM by jpgray
How is that accusing you of censorship unless you fit that description? If you don't, it has nothing to do with you. Stop trying to tie yourself in knots to say it's a condemnation or accusation (by any objective standard of English it isn't), ease off the all-caps, and read. People asked me when I have a problem with opinions, and I answered. I never accused anyone in the OP of wanting to censor anything, nor did I ask anyone to stop saying what they were saying. You can't find quotes of either for a good reason--they don't exist. I never said what you claim, but you -assume- that I did. Why do you do that?
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. So let me get the logic straight here:



You are not accusing anyone of censorship but you have a problem with people who want to censor behavior they don't like. In your very first response to Rabrrrrr, you brought up censorship, so this is obviously a rather important fear you have. It's a wise fear, IMO. Censorship is wrong.

But you are not accusing anyone on DU of advocating censorship? Correct?
You are talking about society at large? Perhaps you were inspired to post by a chat with college buddies about porn/pot/low pants? Your use of the word censorship in the context of this thread has absolutely nothing to do with any similar discussions on DU?


Is this correct?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. That's correct--in both cases I was asked if I have a problem with opinions
I tried to outline cases where I do have a problem personally with opinions, which would include advocation of censorship. I didn't mean to imply that I thought those with negative opinions towards pornography wanted to censor it. I have no way of knowing that and didn't read any statements to that effect. I can, however, readily see why you drew that conclusion since many people in the debate over the past few days have accused people of advocating censorship. It's easy to get caught up in that and assume it's just more of the same. For example, my past few replies to you have been irritated and unnecessarily snarky, and there's no call for that either. I didn't bother to think that my statements might have been unclear or may have implied condemnation, accusation, and broad-brush generalization when they easily could have done all those things. So I screwed up badly there doing exactly what I said was wrong above.

:dunce:
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. It's hard to be cool


;)

I think you get it then. Which makes bhg do a happy dance.

When people cry "censorship!!!!" in the middle of a discussion that has nothing to do with censorship, it distracts from the actual discussion.

And this leads me to believe that some people are very afraid of discussing the darker side of issues like porn and addiction. But how are we ever going to learn about each other or fix some of the darkness if we try to derail conversations and paint others as 'prudes' for discussing their own opinions on these issues?

It just seems very unfair to me when people try to limit discussions with baseless accusations of censorship. It seems unfair to society as well.

And for the record, the pants don't bother me. We had plenty of ass crackage showing in the '70s....this, too, shall pass....


BTW, DU can help us refine our debating skills. I've enjoyed debating with you :hi:

(Am i #69?????)


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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
30. Dunno about porn and pot...
...since they don't bug me unless someone shoves them in my face. But low-hanging pants?

Now WHY would I wanna look at the top of someone else's buttcrack?

opinionatedly,
Bright
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regularguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
32. I try to imagine giving a flying f--k about how people wear their
pants. But I keep coming up blank. "OOOO your underwear is oppressing me!!!!"
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
36. Busybody.....
Well, I sure don't want to be a busybody, so I agree with whatever you said!! :sarcasm:

Persuasion by name-calling is a cheap shot.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. What do you call people who condemn others for doing what they enjoy while harming no one?
Any other similarly descriptive term would be fine by me.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. You're doing some condemning here yourself, my friend...
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 11:45 AM by Jade Fox
One of the most annoying qualities of Lefties (which I have been guilty of myself) is sanctimoniously instructing others to stop being sanctimonious. By dismissing people as "busybodies", you're making it clear you are condemning those people, whoever they are.

I have no real argument with what you said in your original post, but I grate at your assumption that others need you to correct our thinking--the original definition of being "politically correct", before the Right got a hold of that term.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Where do I ask anyone to "correct" their thinking? I just ask them to consider where it comes from
I never thought I'd be compared with the right wing for asking people to think about their condemnations of others.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. Please re-read the post....
I did NOT compare you to the Right. I said the Right stole a term the Left invented to describe ourselves (lefties) when we get a little too zealous.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Sorry. I'm a little irritated I keep getting accused of bossing people around
The only thing I ask is for people to consider where those opinions come from, what the thought process is, etc. The rest is all opinion on how I think it works.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
45. I once said 'let's get some social lubricants' at where I worked and this lady about blew a gasket
After we all had a good laugh, we tactfully informed her that I meant, as Harry Truman would have said, 'let's go strike a blow for liberty'--go get a beer after work !
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
50. Great...You're A Modern Day Mill
"In all cases, people fail to even make the effort to see the other point of view as valid. Note in all cases there is no clear cut case to be made that active harm is being done to anyone who does such things by choice and under zero duress. When actual harm is being done or rights are being trampled, then subjectivity takes a back seat to protect human rights. But when no harm is being done, and people are very resistant to identifying with the behavior, they grasp at vague indefinite "societal" harm, such as we see in the gay marriage debate. While a good case can be made for such harm, watch out. If your claim for ephemeral societal damage is based on your lack of identification with something others enjoy and do by choice, which infringes on no one's human rights, you may need to take a closer look at your assumptions."


John Stuart Mill addressed this topic in "On Liberty" and concluded "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."

The only time society is justified in stopping a behavior is when that behavior has a direct effect on others...It is not enough for it to have a merely contingent effect on others...
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
55. Almost completely agree;
but one sentence is off the mark in my opinion. It is crucially important as to who was right in the Duke non-rape case. The mob mentality of many women and pro-feminist men to immediately assume guilt on the part of any man accused of this type of despicable and violent crime is what led to these young men being vilified for something they didn't do.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Right, but for the purposes of this post, just the phenomenon of identification is illustrative
Before almost -any- evidence was out there, we had people lining up on both sides.
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. Thanks for the response
Point well taken as to purpose of your post. Glad you see my point, though, about the tendency to convict on no more than an accusation in too many cases. By the way, completely off the point, but how did you get that magnificent picture of that old Bo Diddley album? Bo used to live around here ( near Albuquerque) and a lot of my friends have played with him. I did, myself, but just once. I don't know if it was nervousness or what, but I played really poorly and never played with him again. Oh well... If you're a fan you might know he had a stroke recently ;not life threatening but not sure if he's been able to play since then...
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
57. I see you doing the same thing in your essay, in a few instances...

that you are pointing out that we, as a society shouldn't be doing: painting people with broad brush strokes. You should re-read what you have written and you'll see what I mean.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. As I say in the beginning, it's a natural almost irresistable impulse to generalize groups of people
You lose their individuality, you dehumanize them to an extent, and you start getting lazy in questioning your own assumptions. If I had to do that to outline why I have a problem with exactly that behavior, it goes to show how pervasive that phenomenon is. I can't ask people to stop doing it, but I -did- ask people to think about it and whether or not it has an impact on their opinions. I tried to outline a general group of behaviors rather than outline a general group of people--people can have negative opinions about all the above without engaging in the behavior I described.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #59
72. actually appx 30%V of the population reacts adversely to the unfamiliar....
but 30% has an affinity for novelty, no predudice towards the other- and the balance lay somewhere in between.
I read that they were studying the gene markers for it.
myself? i say vive la difference!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
64. public discourse on matters of public interest ...

... what causes the right-wing demagogue reaction of misrepresenting the positions and motivations of people with whom one disagrees?

Danged if I know.

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
66. stereotyping the Duke rape case response
My first reaction was 'those fucking assholes'. I had no problem at all believing that out of jock culture came a sordid alcohol and hired strippers gang rape incident. It was only after the whole case started unravelling, when the facts no longer supported any doubt that the alleged victim and the DA were just making shit up, that I changed my position. What astonished me was the 'after the Duke rape case fell apart' response. I still don't understand how some people, of whatever gender they might happen to be, still managed to consider the members of the Lacrosse team guilty of some unspecified horror.

So as far as stereotyping goes, I think your position might apply to the second phase of this case, but not the first.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
67. Ya know, I learned a LONG time ago to "live and let live" and to mind my own business.
I don't care what anyone else does UNLESS it infringes on MY rights.

Be cool!:smoke::hippie:

Peace.

If pot were legal, I'd have me a VERY NICE little garden.:hippie:

Do I care if kids walk around in low-hanging pants? Not after wearing some of the things I wore back in the 70s!:hippie:

Porn? WHO CARES! If adults want to star in porn movies. Let 'em. If adults want to watch porn, who am I to tell them not to?

Live and let live and we'll all be a lot happier for it.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
68. Too many people care about being 1990s-style culture warriors rather then caring about real issues.
:banghead:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. 1990's style culture warriors? What's that?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. WOOOHOOO POST #69!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. The modern equivalent of the prohibitionists.
The people on both sides who encouraged the social issue-obsessed and identity politics-obsessed rhetoric the 90s.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
73. I'm just gonna repeat one part of your post
When actual harm is being done or rights are being trampled, then subjectivity takes a back seat to protect human rights.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. I don't think anyone can argue with that
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 08:54 PM by jpgray
The problem is, people -will- argue on what constitutes an attack on human rights. The more subtle of these attacks (such as art that supposedly "encourages" behavior) can be difficult to pin down, and usually a line is drawn somewhat arbitrarily that satisfies nobody.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Well, that's true
Fred Phelps is an interesting case. Most people think he's within his constitutional rights to do what he does, and it certainly doesn't directly harm anyone in a physical way. They don't want to make what he's doing illegal.

But at the same time, they recognize that he's spreading homophobia, and encouraging bigotry in our society - and they recognize a connection between hate speech against a group, and violence against that group. So they speak out against him on that basis, without wanting him to be arrested.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Yep, and I think people tend to ascribe the wrong motivations to people
When someone really condemns something (like me in this thread :hide:), the presumption is that person wants to somehow get the behavior stopped by some direct means. People who don't like porn are accused of wanting to censor it, for example. It's difficult sometimes to cut through the fog of those assumed motives and get at what people really think--I know I had trouble with that upthread, proving my point by my own ungracious behavior. :P
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TheFriendlyAnarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
75. When did pot become bad? Link?
If it is, I guess I'm just going to hell.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
78. But what if I came here for an argument? - n/t
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