I was sitting in a BAPTIST church in the SOUTH

[rateyes]

enjoying a supper that they made this past Wednesday evening. The table conversation was steered to the war in Iraq, and Bush's invocation of Vietnam into the argument when one of the long time members of the church said to me...

(First, let me give you a phrase that I used that prompted this response....I said that God (if there is a God)...must get pretty angry hearing his/her name invoked to justify war/violence/evil, and that I can hear God saying..."Please, leave my name out of it."

That's when this long-time Baptist surprised me by saying:

"Bush said that it's God's will for all the nations of the world to live in freedom and democray. That's just horseshit. If that's true, then God has certainly screwed up bigtime. Surely God could have brought democracy to Iraq in 5 years. And, God has had since the beginning of time to bring about democracy for all nations. If Bush is right, then God better get a move on."

Just thought I'd share the story.
:wow:

[immoderate]

1. Good for him.

Reason lives.

--IMM

[ptolle]

4. lives and

reason does indeed live and is sometimes found in the unlikeliest places.
I'm as guilty as anyone but IMO this ought to be a cautionary tale against stereotyping southerners,baptists, southern baptists, religionists in general. Also IMO it's a most hopeful sign for if even that group is drifting away from the PNACers then their support is thin on the ground and unlikely to recover.

[crim son]

2. Thank you!

Your long-time Baptist shows common sense, and it's very encouraging to hear that some evangelicals are questioning the shrub's laughable claims.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. Either This Story Isn't True Or This Long Time Member Of The Church Needs To Pay More Attention When

there.

Even someone who isn't that long time of a member should be able to recall that the Lord's will is not always done on Earth, since we have free will. Just because it is God's will for something does not mean that something will occur. Even someone who is basically trained in the concept of religion should be able to realize that.

God's will is done in heaven, not on Earth. If God's will were done on Earth without fail, then this would in fact be heaven. So the theory that it couldn't possibly be God's will for all nations to be free, since it hasn't yet occurred, is monumentally flawed in its intellectual reasoning and core understanding of how God works on Earth.

So either this story is just simply made up, or the person who uttered the statement to you is fairly ignorant in their understanding of God and religion.

[alfredo]

7. Most are ignorant of their religion, they are Sunday Morning Christians.

That's what makes them so easily manipulated.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

8. I'm glad to know someone who knows how God works..

Would you please explain what God was thinking when He deliberately created human beings with Progeria?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progeria


""If a person who indulges in gluttony is a glutton, and a person who commits a felony is a felon, then God is an iron." -Spider Robinson

[Arugula Latte]

11. Don't you just love it when someone starts spelling out in detail how it all works?

First of all, assuming there IS some sort of omnipotent being pulling the strings seems bizarre to me, but then to say "god does this" and "this is how it works in heaven" and then criticizing someone else's theory as intellectually flawed when his is based on a bunch of hooey, dogma and guesswork just makes me sick.

Such arrogance.

[Jax]

28. Good points. Agree, such arrogance.

But not surprising anymore.

I wonder if god would have a 'fuck nader' avatar...

[rateyes]

10. I assure you it wasn't made up....

...and obviously you don't understand hyperbole. And, BTW, I thought God was supposed to be sovereign and could do anything God wanted to do. It was a tongue in cheek comment, but basically shows that even some Baptists in the South understand that Bush is a lying sack of shit.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. Okey Dokey Pokey!

[Selatius]

21. I don't think God intervenes in the affairs of man much if at all.

Because it violates His own principle of giving humans free will. It's why I call him the "Divine Watchmaker." He made the watch (the universe), and He cranked it up. He can then watch the machine run itself according to the laws of nature that He laid down.

[rateyes]

25. I lean toward Theism myself...

while I attend a Baptist church, I don't buy into all the doctrines. I'm universalist in my theology...not a traditionally Baptist concept. But, then again, the church I attend, while Baptist, is more liberal than most.

[Selatius]

31. At this point I lean towards Deism, the "divine watchmaker" phrase was coined by Deists.

An example of a Deist is Thomas Jefferson.

I came to Deism after having left the Catholic Church after the horrible child molestation scandals, the sheer hypocrisy. I came to conclude each one of us is capable of deciding for himself or herself the path one should walk through the gift of reason. It was not given to be thrown away on dogma and fear and authority. I don't need a cardinal or a pope to tell me what is right. His opinion is no better than mine regardless if he claims religious authority. To study God's work, you study the universe and yourself. As a result, the scientific method becomes a valuable tool in learning about the world. Just because the Bible says the earth is 7,000 years old doesn't necessarily make it true.

[rateyes]

32. That's what I meant...

my bad.

[immoderate]

39. And Darwin showed the watchmaker is superfluous.

He's the divine clock watcher.

--IMM

[Selatius]

40. I agree as far as evolution, but I think the Big Bang was God turning the key.

But once the machine started up, the laws of nature laid down governed everything else beyond that point.

[immoderate]

41. My question is...

What was god doing before that?

--IMM

[yodermon]

14. "basically trained in the concept of religion"?

"monumentally flawed in its intellectual reasoning"?
"core understanding of how God works on Earth."?
"fairly ignorant in their understanding of God and religion?"

And you're privy to such understanding?
:crazy:

I'll cite you one:
"Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven"

as opposed to your statement 'God's will is done in heaven, not on Earth.'

Go ahead, insert transcendent masturbatory mental gymnastics here as an explanation: ______________________________

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. LOL You're Kidding Right?

"Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven"

Do you not understand this quite simple prayer? :rofl:

Insert a 'may' before each line for what it's getting at. It's to pray that His will be done, since often on Earth it is not. It's a prayer of hope that the Lord will guide us to do His Will. It is not a declaration that God's will rules us here. To ascertain that is quite simply ignorant.

The Lord's will is done in heaven. We can only pray that it be done here on Earth, but most often it is not. OUR will is done on Earth, due to our free will. Sometimes, our will aligns with His will, and the truly wise amongst us can follow His will. But the Lord's will does not rule us here, nor determine daily events.

Did you really get that part of the prayer that wrong in your understanding of it? Did you truly think that was your big 'gotcha' that would bolster your argument? Rilly? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! :rofl:

Sorry pal, but that prayer actually bolstered my case, not yours...

[Arugula Latte]

44. And you're taking a made-up prayer made up as Fact

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You are nothing if not entertaining, I'll have to say that.

[alphafemale]

5. Sounds like a "Jimmy Carter" type Baptist.

Loved the former Pres on "God's Warriors" last night.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

26. Jimmy is probably an AMERICAN Baptist rather than Southern..

Different branches. American Baptist branch has traditionally been more intellectual, liberal, freer thinking.

[rateyes]

27. Jimmy Carter grew up a Southern Baptist...

he was never a member of the American Baptist denomination. His church in Americus, GA was Southern Baptist (I don't know if they still are). But, Jimmy left the Southern Baptist Convention himself. He's independent (in the best sense of that word).

[classof56]

6. In a BAPTIST church in the SOUTH?? Wow!

I feel much better--thanks for sharing! After watching "God's Warriors" last night, I have been pretty damned depressed. Jimmy Carter and Greg Boyd give me some hope for organized Christianity, but the rest of 'em...argh..

I spent the first 25 years of my life, and a few since, in Baptist churches and I've now given up on 'em. Glad to hear you encountered one that is using the brain God gave him!

Tired Old Cynic

[lapfog_1]

9. I have a darker take on his/her comment.

"Bush said that it's God's will for all the nations of the world to live in freedom and democray. That's just horseshit."

Which means this person doesn't believe that freedom and democracy are ordained... which means that he or she could just as easily support a monarchy or (drum roll) theocracy... for any nation... even this one.

[rateyes]

12. No, I know this guy...

he is most assuredly not a RW theocrat. He is very strong on the separation of church and state.

[lapfog_1]

15. OK, but you can see how that comment could cut both ways...

and the evangelicals have me on edge these days.

[rateyes]

20. Yes, I do see it. And, I'm on the edge with you...

:hi:

[emilyg]

16. Thank you.

[michreject]

17. My take on it

:bounce:

[RB TexLa]

18. Of course s/he might also say "if God had not wanted those people to die, he would have done

something about Hitler."

[rateyes]

22. Like I said,

I'm more comfortable leaving God (or the concept of God) out of it. We shouldn't use the argument "God is on our side" in fighting a war (or anything else). That just gives people false justification for doing evil things.

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. And THIS is why I contend that the Democrats cannot just

abandon the South, as posited in some other threads.

[marions ghost]

30. After the serial abuses of the Bushbotts...

betrayal after betrayal, fuckup after fuckup, blowjob after blowjob...

This is the BEST opportunity the Dems have had in a long while to make inroads in the South. Look at what happened in Virginia.

And so they would give it up? :shrug:

Doesn't make sense to me.

[Colorado Progressive]

23. Are Baptists supposed to say "horseshit"? Just wonderin nt

[rateyes]

24. I'm one Baptist that does...

...and, so does that one. Some of us understand that shit like that doesn't matter.

[alphafemale]

29. Question: If you invite a Baptist fishing, how do you keep him/her from drinking all your beer?

Answer: Invite two of them.

[rateyes]

33. There are three things you have to remember...

to be a good Baptist:

1. Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

2. Protestants don't recognize the authority of the Pope.

and,


















3. Baptists don't recognize each other when they are in the liquor store.

:evilgrin:

[Colorado Progressive]

34. LOL nt

[Ikonoklast]

35. OK, just remember, you started it.....

Do you know why Baptists never have sex while standing?














They don't want to be accused of dancing.

[rateyes]

38. Do you know how many Baptists it takes

to change a light bulb?
























Baptists? Change?

[truedelphi]

37. God better get a move on

What a wonderful quote!!

Thanks for that insight

[salin]

42. Response:

when did God begin to talk through George Bush? What if Bush is one of those false prophets the Bible talks about? Maybe the President is using God's name (and claim) in vain... (Duh!)

[Clark2008]

43. When I was growing up in the South, all Southern Baptists

were like this.

I was raised in both Southern Baptists (Dad's side) and Catholic (Mom's side) churches all my life and I never heard to horseshit that comes out of their mouths today.

Maybe they're moving back to the way they used to be before politicians started pandering to them and they thought THEY were God.