Seriously considering Class Action suit against Microsoft. Anyone else have these probs?

[The Doctor.]

(cross-posted)

The last time my Windows XP OS 'automatically updated' (aside from last night), everything went to hell. I couldn't get anything to work right, so I reinstalled the OS... all better.

Until it updated again yesterday.

Now, there's nothing I can seem to do to avoid a total reformat.

Fine, so be it, I will.

Meanwhile, I would love for all you 'PC lovers' out there to explain to me just how this happens.

You see, if I created operating systems upon which so many operations and applications depend, I would seriously consider sending out updates that screwed up the obsolete OS's so that customers would upgrade to the New OS that my company just released.

But because that would be a serious violation of anti-trust laws, I would not do it.

Microsoft has a shady history here. I'd love to hear from anyone else that has experienced these problems with Windows, specifically and recently with the XP operating system.

Now, if any PC people who either love or hate MS operating systems would like to try and help a fellow out, I'll be thrilled to give details on just what is happening. Frankly I'd be ecstatic if anyone had a solution and I'd be happy to donate for any DUer that can help.

But if this is rampant, then we need to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Hey, hit me with the details.

I can say I have not had these problems here and I have built two new computers and done two reinstalls in the past two weeks or so.

I might add that my install of WindowsXP x64 is doing fine as well.

[The Doctor.]

14. K... you asked for it....

It started this morning when my son told me that everything froze on him when he tried to go online. Last night, my system told me it was 'automatically shutting down to install updates'. All I could do was delay the shut down while I worked until I was done, then I just let it happen.

So after my son tells me this, I look at the tower, the operating light is on... ok, but there's no actual activity.

The machine does not respond to the reset button. The machine did not respond to the power switch on the supply. I unplug it, plug it back in, flip the switch in the back, it starts up. I hit IE (version 6) and it brings up my homepage which happens to be DU. ;) So far so good, right?

I pull up favorites and try to go to another site. Ballocks, nothing... IE freezes then goes into convulsions until I shut it down in taskmon... which takes a while to work.

I try it a few more times, it turns out that I can only go to my assigned home page in internet tools/options. Try to leave the homepage... same results. I shut down, start up... same results.

I run msconfig and play with all the startup apps and accesories, PITA. I meticulously go through and try to find out if there's something running that's affecting my IE. Hours later... no luck.


Fine. I go to reinstall XP. It's worked before. Get this... as I'm trying to install it, it tells me that setup 'failed to find a hard drive', yet they're fully functional (I have two, on 80gb master and a 250 gb slave).

I try a few things, nothing works.

I get my Vista Disk that came with my laptop (which is what I'm using now but with my wireless logitec keyboard, tracman trackball logitec mouse, and 20" flatscreen plugged into it... just easier with the toys), download the keyfinder to get the key from the laptop because they didn't give it to me with the disk, and attempt to install Vista.

It gets to a blue screen that basically says; "Windows had to shut down to prevent damage to one or more of your drives"... frozen.

I can get more exact details, but just so you know I have 2gb of fully functional ram, an athlon 64 dual, nvidia 6800 series video card, and the drives I mentioned that have been scanned and passed with flying colors.

I have many problems that even my most tech-savvy friends don't understand. They've witnessed shit going wrong when they saw me do nothing wrong.

I think I may be a technofere.

Ideas or questions?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

22. First mistake:

Turning off the computer during an update install. Yuhhh-eeesh.

Without going into a long, wordy and ultimately boring laundry list of long-distance forensics, her's is the digested version:

Back up all your important settings, bookmarks and personal data, off the machine. Do a format and reinstall. What I suspect is that you have some hosed stuff in your registry. Unless you are a master registry alchemist, that is the only good suggestion I can give you.

Note: Sometimes, with Windows, it is good to start over.

[backscatter712]

24. This man speaks truth.

It's probably a hosed registry. With Windows, sometimes things get so screwed up that the only thing left to do is boot with a rescue disk, save your stuff onto CDs or USB flash drives or whatever backup solution you have handy, then format and reinstall.

If it's still FUBAR after you formatted the hard disk and reinstalled, then chances are good you might have a hardware problem.

[The Doctor.]

27. Yeah... but that's just it...

It would therefore be the updates that caused the problem.

I installed nothing else.

Hmmm... perhaps I should grill the boy, he was the last to see a healthy PC... :mad:

I'm highly confident the reformat will solve it. It'll skip over bad sectors and stuff, and I don't think the bios is messed.

Thanks for mentioning, DU is great for that.

:yourock:

Oh, and welcome to DU;

:patriot:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

29. Here's the good news:

At http://newegg.com, hard drives are cheap. Really cheap. Go-to-hell cheap.

Do yourself a favor, especially if that hard drive is over three years old: Get a new one. Especially if you got bad sectors.

7200 RPM, 8-16 MB cache. SATA if your computer takes it, IDE if not.

On edit: When you do the reinstall, set the computer to place "My Documents" off on the slave drive. It's in the My Documents properties, accessible with a right mouse click on the folder icon. An excellent way to save space on the C: drive and keep your documents and data and pictures and pr0...uhhh..."other things" just that little bit safer.

[The Doctor.]

34. I love newegg.

I bought most of my new hardware there. Their first impression was the email they sent to me after I ordered a CD from them. It said that 'Upon receipt of your order, the president and CEO of newegg {forgot name} took out his golden key and unlocked the music vault. A team of highly trained newegg specialists, wearing silk gloves, carefully removed your CD from it's hyperbaric chamber and gently placed it in a down and velvet lined box. Together, all the newegg personel marched your box in a mile-long parade to the airport while singing "Gimme Some Lovin'" by Steve Winwood. There, your CD was secured in it's package, and everybody waved goodbye as the plane dissappeared into the blue sky on it's way to you.'

- It's nothing big or very creative, but it said something to me the TD didn't.

I used to use Tigerdirect, but I didn't like their service, so fuck 'em.

I very much appreciate the suggestion. I've put bigger files of apps, music, por..uh... 'videos', and data on Mr. Slave, but I will put my target folders on the other. That will save a lot of file shuffling later when I already know where the stuff will wind up.

Thanks for that.

[The Doctor.]

25. I didn't 'turn off the computer during an update install', I simply 'let it' do it's thing.

I'd love to hear the forensics, but I think I get the gist that updates effect registry settings and priority settings and goes through a process of editing the registry and therefore the 'brain' of the OS. If the editing is interrupted, it leaves a whole shitload of redundant priorities where they don't belong, and a gaping hole of broken registry links where they should be.

- Am I warm?

And yes, I've played around in the registry before doing some manual 'spy hunting' and 'application relief', but I can't even imagine trying to back-engineer off the update code and fix the connections in the registry unless I had a hundred years or was a full-metal Alchemist. ;)

I think you've given sage advice, and yes... I spent a few hours backing stuff up on the spacious slave just in case. I think that I shall once again foray into the abyss, bite the bullet, grimace, and start fresh.

It will be a waste of time to do otherwise at this point.

Thanks much, I hope I can bug you again over stuff. (I think I did before when I asked about how to do the 'master' 'slave' thing with the hard drives... thank God for tweezers!)

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

30. I am hard to bug...

But I love to help people out with their computer problems, if I can. I ain't got all the answers, but I have a few and they might fit. ;-)

[mikelgb]

2. Windows XP always installs its updated for me and restarts my PC

sometimes losing important work

[drm604]

7. I really hate that.

I've had long jobs running overnight and it updates and restarts destroying all of that work. :grr:

[Deja Q]

3. If it was deliberate, almost every computer in the world would go down.

And Microsoft has backtracked on Vista, in favor of extending XP sales.

MS has played games in the past, compelling people to get the newest OS or to ditch OS/2 or whatever else, but there are sometimes legitimate security issues as well.

I've been lucky in that I've never had to reformat a system. But 2 years ago, I did find fault with one update that hampered the computer's ability to access some websites. The 'fix' was to rename one file, which seemed odd.

Have you tried booting in safe mode and removing the patch MS automatically installed? (I typically let the OS download the updates, and let me decide which ones I want to install. For Vista, so far, the only problems I've had came from 3rd party driver updates that tend to break the activation. :eyes: It only happened once, but it shouldn't have happened at all. Not with 5 years of development by lots of H1Bs who are said to be infinitely superior to everyone else.)

[blogslut]

4. You could disable auto-updates

:)

[NYC]

8. Please tell me how.

I always manage to interrupt the automatic updates when they try to start at home, but in the office it has been a tremendous interference.

I would love to disable the automatic updates.

[LearnedHand]

13. How to disable automatic updates

Start > Control Panel > Automatic Updates > Turn off automatic updates.

[NYC]

31. Thank you.

:) Now, I'm happy.

[The Straight Story]

15. I suggested that to a friend of ours, who mentioned it later to some of his tech friends

And they said 'no, always get the updates' and they wondered what sort of tech *I* was.

So I explained step-by-step to my friend that updates don't always translate into 'better'. Which, of course, he already knew because that is was hosed his apps in the first place.

In the larger companies I worked for we always tested the updates and rolled them out ourselves.

I think though people are so scared of MS products and that there are swarms of hackers waiting to get into their computer that they just trust MS to do the right thing the right way.

[The Doctor.]

16. I've tried.

It never sticks.

I must be doing something wrong.

[blogslut]

19. I feel for you

Personally I have WIN 2000 on my big PC and will not upgrade to any newer MS OS. I have a little program I downloaded years ago that will disable the updates but sadly, the software is no longer free. It's system tweaker and has a nifty behind-your-back wizard that will let you mess with those nasty setting Windows tries to hide. It costs 19.95 now and maybe it will be worth it to you:

http://www.x-setup.net

[slowry]

5. Haxors or bad RAM! imho

1) Do you have a router w/a firewall? If not, make sure your network cable is physically unplugged, when you do a reinstall. Then either get such a hardware firewall (router is most common), or a good software one (Microsoft's isn't that super). Also, be sure to have a good antivirus program installed. Ignore 1) if you're way ahead of me on this.

2) If you are able to write to a floppy, or burn a CD (perhaps on another computer), it might be worth running memtest86 (utility for checking RAM integrity): http://www.memtest86.com/download.html

It sounds to me like a bad stick of RAM (at least, I had similarly random and often fatal problems, due to that, a few times in the past).

The test will take anywhere from 15minutes to 1hour, depending on the amount of RAM you have. However, you may notice errors right away (hint: red text :(!!)

[The Doctor.]

17. Way ahead of you.

Have PCCillin '07, full firewall.

I have memtest and have used it on memory before when the exact same problems occured. The Rambus was fine then. Now I have a new MB with 2 gig of DDR... brand new.

That doesn't mean it's not worth checking. I'll do it if I can get past the error.

Thanks!

[LostInAnomie]

6. Same story with my PC

Up until about a week ago my PC had been running fine, that is until the automatic updates started downloading and automatically installing themselves. Since then I have having "serious hard drive errors" daily.

I don't know what the hell was in that last update, but someone needs their ass kicked.

[elifino]

9. XP UPDATE PROBLEM

I had this problem also, the PC came with XP which I upgraded to XP-PRO. The problem came at the first update after the upgrade. I loaded Linux on that PC and bought a new PC with XP-PRO, no problems with updates the last two years. I work part time from home IT SUPPORT for the company I retired from two years ago. It could have been a problem with the upgrade from XP to XP-PRO.

elifino

[Gregorian]

10. Possible answer that's probably way too easy. Do a system restore.

The first thing I do when I get a new machine is turn off all automatic updating. I spent a week just uninstalling software and turning the machine to bare bones.

[The Doctor.]

18. I tried to do a sys restore... No restore point is available... I shit you not.

I had them before, I created restore points. I'm guessing that I forgot to do it after I reinstalled XP Pro the last time because I figured the install would be counted. Bad assumption with MS.

But yeah, I've shut down so much superfluous crap, but I guess my attempt to shut down the updates failed.

[cutlassmama]

11. I have VISTA and haven't had any problems eom

[ruiner4u]

12. I want to sue microsoft for just being microsoft...

I have far too many rants, snipes, bitches to write out... simply, their system sucks...

And Live OneCare? I hope there is a special level of hell for Gates..

[The Doctor.]

20. LOL... Yeah. It's like owning a Fiat...

I was never a tech geek, but I always pick up on stuff quickly.

I say that using MS products is like owning a Fiat.

My father owns a '78 Fiat Spider convertible, forest green. He bought it in the early '80s. I remember that thing being in pieces more than together. For every ride he took, it seemed the car required a day of maintenance.

I suppose that is how the car got it's nick; "Fix It Again Toni". Did I mention it's an Italian sports car?

So despite my lack of education on tech stuff, I had to gain an understanding in order to perform all the maintenance on my system.

Hell, I've been on my knees weeding the registry for Christ's sake... something no tech guy would recommend. And I succeeded. :freak:

Everyone that uses a Windows OS either has to learn how to fix shit, or wind up paying other people to do it.

It's like owning a Fiat.

[ruiner4u]

23. the best comparison ive ever seen...

and ive known the fiat joke for years...



Thats exactly what its like...

[tkmorris]

41. I gotta jump in here

You're already getting outstanding computer advice so I won't add anything there, but I once owned a 1980 Fiat 2000 Spider and that car was the most fun I ever had sitting down. And I never fixed anything on it except the radiator fan, replaced the radiator, replaced the ignition motor, mounted a toggle on the dash to control the radiator fan manually (temp sensor kept frying), replaced the clock, needed to replace the wiring harness but rigged it instead, several lights, the water pump, and replaced a faulty antenna cable.

Not bad for a year in a Spider. :evilgrin: FWIW I still check all the sale ads locally and on Ebay for one like it. It broke a lot but it was a helluva lot easier to work on than any car I've owned since and I loved it when it did run.

[rucky]

21. Same thing happened to me the first time it updated!

Had to reformat. Lost all my iTunes.

[ladjf]

26. My auto updates from MS caused my streaming videos to

show only green sceens. Each time I had to reinstall explorer. I finally gave up and turned off auto-updates.

[JCMach1]

28. Ummmm. Turn off those auto updates...

only allow updates if you KNOW it is critical and back-up before you install it.

[ladjf]

49. That's what I have done. However, there are other risks incurred

by refusing the updates.

[porphyrian]

32. What do you expect from pirates?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Hmm given that I am thinking of getting XP home for one

of the drives on this vista machine... nope don't think so

But it sounds like you have some sector problems

[The Doctor.]

35. Yeah, that seems to be the consensus.

Nothing a good ole' reformatting won't fix. *sigh*

Thanks. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Well it might also be XP

we got some Service Packs for XP in the last days, and trust me... I had to do a system restore...

SP 3 I think they are calling it and it is asked by apps such as Word 07

[The Doctor.]

39. Ahh. Hey... one more thing...

How do I get into dos on startup and enter the reformat command?

Win 98se had that option, and I can do it otherwise, but I don't remember how to start in dos and the commands from there.

Off the top of your head?

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Here you go,

http://www.5starsupport.com/xp-faq/1-1.htm

Several methods to do this, you can even do this with your install cd, which is what I thought... but was not sure

[The Doctor.]

43. Awesome!

Thanks!

[Sanctified]

36. Sounds like you are using Trend Micro for your anti-virus which is causing the problem not XP.

If you are using Trend Micro boot to safemode and uninstall Windows Update KB938828. Then reboot to safemode and uninstall Trend Micro PC-Cillin. After that boot to normal mode and run your microsoft updates, and then re-install Trend Micro and your issue is solved.

[The Doctor.]

40. That's such a good answer I'd attach a disclaimer.

If I can get to safe mode, I may just try that before I try wiping the drive.

[Sanctified]

46. You can get to safe mode no problem.

If you have Trend Micro thats exactly your problem. What is happening is trend micro is preventing any changes to your system files, basically Microsoft is no longer able to update your system files because of trend micro.

[Kutjara]

38. The major obstacle to suing M$ for the shortcomings of its products...

...are the End User Licence Agreements (EULAs) to which every user has to agree before being allowed to use the software. All that boring verbiage that nobody reads says "if this doesn't work, you're shit outta luck buddy/buddette (delete as apropriate). If you agree, click OK. If not, fuck off." (I'm paraphrasing.)

The reason M$ software doesn't work is because the company spends most of the money they should devote to development on lawyers who ensure it doesn't have to spend anything on development.

[Neshanic]

44. As a longtime Microsoft victim, this is my theory, which others have said I need tinfoil.

Every time Microsoft has a new product, say Windows to Windows ME to Window XP, I have noticed the following. After the release of the new product, the earlier product mystifyingly starts getting buggy. When I went to ME, and waited a bit while XP was out, then ME became unstable. Now I have Vista Ultimate, and am hearing from non Vista people these type of things.

I think that Microsoft throws the program out there, then has updates for the new program they want people to buy, but the updates do something to the older version, in this case XP. They want you to reach that "I give up" moment, and trot off to Best Buy to get Vista. Whole product lines do not work. My 11x17 HP printer now is a non Vista machine, and HP has no intention of making it one. The same for the scanner.

Adobe Creative Suite, iTunes....the list is endless, but the bottom line is that if you sue Microsoft, you need to go after HP and Adobe also.

I sympathize with you. I have been there.

[Horse with no Name]

45. As long as my PC works fine

I don't do updates.
AT ALL. That function is disabled.
The last time I did, I lost work on my computer and ended up losing a contract AND a couple of clients over it.
Hard lesson.
Again--I DO NOT update anymore,lol.

[The Doctor.]

47. Figures... I go to take care of the reformat... the screen isn't getting signal..

fuck all.

Someone's getting a laugh. Glad to have the laptop, but it just doesn't have that 'master console' feel my system does.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[moondust]

48. I've suspected that.

For 15 years. And what is to prevent them from doing it? After all, they do have a history of abusing their OS monopoly and predatory business practices.

That said, I have two PCs running XP Pro that I keep up to date monthly and they currently have only a minor problem or two that I can attribute to Microsoft.

Sometimes I think they've tried to incorporate too many bells and whistles (because that's what sells) and it has all gotten so complex that it's out of control; things interfering with each other that are beyond the comprehension of the programmers assigned to fix them.

You shouldn't have to reformat. As a last resort you can boot from the CD and choose to repair the current installation of Windows. Apply Service Pack 2 if necessary and then do an online update (around 90 updates since SP2).

Good luck.