Doom and gloom -- Why Bother Talking about it?

[Time for change]

There has been a kind of divide on DU lately. On the one side are the so-called “Doom and gloomers” – which I am not ashamed to say includes myself. And on the other side are those who criticize the “Doom and gloomers” for what is perceived as “giving up” or claiming that “the sky is falling”.

The criticizers make a good point by saying that even when things are bad we should not proclaim them to be hopeless, and we should not give up. I agree with that. But I also believe that the criticizers misunderstand the position of most of the Doom and gloomers, especially with regard to the claim that they advocate “giving up”. I can’t say for sure that they’re mistaken about this because maybe they’ve been reading different posts than I have been. But it is my impression that only a rare Doom and gloom poster, if any, advocates giving up. That’s my interpretation of the situation, and I think that a large part of the divide that I speak of is caused by misinterpretation of our attitudes.

I think that this is an extremely important issue. So it is my intention in this post to talk about the point of view of the so-called “Doom and gloomers”, as best I understand that point of view, since I am one of them. Though in actual point of fact, of course I am only speaking for myself here, as far as I know for sure.


How I/we feel about today’s situation

I have many reactions to the sad state of affairs in our country today, many related to the fact that the Democratic Congress hasn’t turned out at all like I hoped or expected. One difference between me and at least some of the doom and gloomers is that I haven’t been scathingly critical of our elected Democratic representatives. That’s partly because I’m a very non-judgmental person, and partly perhaps because I’m more in denial than some others – but I may yet get there some day soon. Anyhow, I do have three main reactions to our current sad state of affairs: bewilderment, disappointment, and fear.

The three issues that I am most concerned about are the failure of our Democratic Congress to stop the war (or prevent its extension), their acceding to Bush’s destruction of our Fourth Amendment (and other Constitutional) rights, and their failure to vigorously pursue impeachment or even to hold the Bush administration accountable for their actions in a meaningful way. It is the impeachment issue that most concerns me because I believe that every other issue is subsumed under it. By failing to even try to impeach Bush and Cheney, I believe that Congress is setting a terribly dangerous precedent for our nation that essentially says “fuck our Constitution” and “fuck the rule of law” in our country in general. Furthermore, I don’t believe that the Iraq War will be ended or our Constitutional rights will be restored until the Bush administration is gone – and very possibly, not even then. So here is how I feel about this situation:

Bewilderment
I feel so strongly about impeachment that it is very difficult for me to understand why our Democratic Congress appears to feel so differently about it. I have posted 19 OPs on DU that dealt primarily with the impeachment issue, all of them advocating for impeachment. Some of those OPs also speculated on why Congress is so reluctant to tackle this subject that I consider to be of monumental importance. For example, I have talked about the hostile role that our corporate news media is likely to play in such an effort; and I have even speculated that some Congresspersons might feel that their lives will be threatened if they pursue impeachment. In the absence of any explanation that makes sense to me, I am willing to consider almost any explanation.

Many DUers have expressed the opinion that Congress really is working towards impeachment via the many hearings they have held. They’re just doing it slower than many of us would like, these DUers say, because they need to do it in such a way that we don’t jeopardize our chances to retain Congress and elect a Democratic President in 2008. I try to consider that viewpoint, and sometimes I am almost inclined to semi-believe it, but it just doesn’t compute for me. As hard as I try to see evidence for such a scenario, I just can’t see it.

Or, another similar point of view is that, as much as our Democratic Congresspersons would like to proceed with impeachment, they wisely understand that it is not politically feasible and would risk political catastrophe. Though I certainly recognize that most or all of our Congresspersons are more politically astute than I am, that view doesn’t compute for me either, as I have discussed many times.

In the end I have to say that I just do not understand what the motivations are for even people like John Conyers and Russ Feingold to avoid the subject.

Disappointment
So I have been moving slowly towards what I’m afraid may be the ugly truth of our situation – that the good majority of even our Democratic Congresspersons just don’t feel that our Constitution and preserving the rule of law in our country is as important as many of us so-called “Doom and gloomers” do.

That of course would be a terrible thing to believe, since we believe that our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, and the rule of law in general signify everything that our country is supposed to stand for and that we believed that it stood for. The Bush administration has made a mockery of all that, and Congress appears to us to be standing passively by and letting it happen. It seems like the ancient Roman Republic morphing into the Roman Empire and then spawning chaos and catastrophe, as all empires have eventually done, is happening all over again. And it is terribly disappointing.

Fear
So it appears to many of us that the end of our nation as we know it could very well be near at hand. The world itself is teetering on the brink of environmental catastrophe. What hope is there to save our planet when the world’s lone superpower acts like an irresponsible child and a bully?

And from my own personal point of view, my worst fear is that I will be picked up by the authorities for my politically dissident views and thrown into a dungeon and tortured until the end of my life. There is almost no question in my mind that if George Bush and Dick Cheney had the power and the wherewithal to do that, they would do that to me right this moment, along with all the other people in the world who vehemently disagree with or dislike them. So the only reason I’m allowed to sit here and write things like I write is because right now they don’t have the power to do that to me. Yet.


Let’s face reality about the Bush administration

The criticizers criticize us doom and gloomers partly because, they say, we paint the situation as hopeless. But as I said before, I believe that only a very minute fraction of DUers mean to paint the situation as totally hopeless. If we felt it was totally hopeless we would throw up our hands and give up and not post here any more.

Rather, what we are trying to do is express how bad we believe the situation to be, in the hope that more people will act accordingly. We simply don’t believe that the Bush administration is a group of people with whom it is logical to collaborate, as if we were on the same side. Simply put, we don’t believe that it is at all productive to attribute any good intentions to them. Once it is recognized that they have no good intentions whatsoever, one will automatically then deal with them in a way that one would not deal with normal people. Once one recognizes their true nature one won’t trust their word, enter into “gentleman’s agreements” with them, or deal with them as if they operated in good faith. In short, one would stop appeasing them.


Let’s face reality in general

Now I’m going to say some things that are terribly depressing – so depressing that some or many will consider my saying these things to be expressing a defeatist attitude. I don’t mean it like that, but anyone who stops reading this post after reading this section of it will very likely see it like that. Now, let’s face a few facts:

Fact # 1 – Most people are not like us. DUers are far more informed and far more liberal than the average American. Though I am proud of my affiliation with DU, I say this out of sadness rather than out of pride. It is sad because I feel that if more Americans were like DUers we wouldn’t be in the terrible mess that we’re in now.

We look at the Iraq War for example in terms of the destruction that it is doing to our country and to Iraq, and the many hundreds of thousands of lives lost, including their lives. Most Americans, on the other hand, including many who want the war to end, are much more inclined than us to simply look at the war in terms of whether we are “winning” or “losing” it. In other words, other Americans are far less likely than us to question the purpose or the morality of the war.

And I doubt very much whether most Americans seriously question the rampant violations of our Constitution. They simply don’t see that as affecting them personally. Muslims thrown into dungeons without charges and without trial, and tortured daily? So what? If they’re even aware of it, way too many Americans probably feel that it’s necessary for our protection.

Fact # 2 – Our elected representatives are even substantially further to the right than the American people in general. How could it be otherwise in a society where money plays such an important role in our elections and therefore the wealthy have such a disproportionate influence on the results? What would most politicians rather have, the approval of ten poverty stricken Americans or the approval of one wealthy CEO capable of contributing millions to their campaign? So perhaps we expected too much when we believed that the actions of our Democratic Congress would more closely reflect our views than they have.

Fact # 3 – American history is full of dark episodes that substantially deviate from the ideals expressed in our founding documents and from our own ideals. First there was slavery and the extermination of the Native American population of our land; there was the war of conquest against Mexico, which was undertaken largely in the hope of expanding slavery; there was our imperial overseas expansion in the later years of the 19th Century and the early years of the 20th Century; then there were the numerous “regime changes” post-World War II, where we replaced democratically elected leaders with murderous despots for no other reason than our fear of Communism or our interest in the natural resources or geo-strategic importance of the involved countries.

There have been many things to be proud of in our history as well: Our Constitution; the fight to abolish slavery and its eventual success, with the addition of our 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments to our Constitution; Teddy Roosevelt’s fight to abolish corporate monopolies; FDR’s New Deal; and the fight for Civil Rights. These things all represent important progress from which we can take hope and energy. But when we fail to consider the dark episodes as well, we fool ourselves. And that is exactly what most of our politicians would like us to forget or not think or talk about.


Some thoughts on powerlessness

Our powerlessness is another reason why many of us have become so discouraged. We all want to affect the future of our country for the better, and to some extent we all do. But many of us feel very discouraged that our influence seems to be so small. In a nation of 300 million people, how can most individuals expect to have significant influence?

Take voting, for example. Has anyone here ever voted in a presidential election thinking that there was a snowball’s chance in hell that their vote would make the difference in the election? I know that I haven’t. Yet I’ve voted in all 9 presidential elections for which I’ve been eligible, I intend to keep doing so, and I’ll bet that the great majority of other DUers do also – even the Doom and gloomers.

Why do we do that? Because we rightly consider it our civic duty to do so – regardless of the tightness of the race and regardless of the propensity for election fraud.

The same thing can be said about our communications with our Congresspersons. One DUer recently expressed great frustration over the fact that her Congressperson rarely if ever acceded to her wishes that were expressed in her letters. But writing our Congresspersons is a lot like voting, except it carries a greater chance of success since there are fewer letter writers than there are voters. If a Congressperson receives enough letters advocating a particular action, impeachment for example, the Congressperson is likely to act on those letters. If s/he receives only a few letters, then s/he is less likely to act. How many letters is enough, and will ours make the difference? We never know, just like we don’t know when our vote will make a difference. But we do it anyhow because it is the right thing to do and because it feels right to do it.


Depression

Talk about doom and gloom, there is nothing worse than depression. This may seem somewhat off topic, but I’m writing about depression here because I believe it’s very relevant to the discussion and because I believe that there are at least some depression prone people who will benefit from it.

There is a lot that medical science has yet to learn about depression. It is known that depression is caused both by certain chemical imbalances in the brain and by psychological factors. For some depressed people it is caused almost solely by one or the other, and for others it is caused by a combination of both. To the extent that it is caused by chemical imbalances, certain antidepressant drugs can be very effective in treating it – otherwise the underlying psychological issues need to be dealt with.

When I was in my early 40s in the early 1990s I had been subject to periodic bouts of depression for most of my life. Somebody recommended to me that I read a book by Dr. David Burns called “http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dfeeling%2Bgood%2Bdavid%2Bburns%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title">Feeling Good – The New Mood Therapy – The Clinically Proven Drug-free Treatment for Depression”. So I started reading it.

What really seemed hokey to me was that throughout the book the author kept on telling me what a worth while person I was. My thought was, obviously, “How the hell would he know?” And then it suddenly dawned on me what he was trying to say: Depression is often exacerbated by lack of self-confidence (which I was subject to). One of the primary ingredients of self confidence is self-knowledge. As long as some people are reluctant to look at who they are and what they believe, they are likely to lack self-knowledge and therefore lack self confidence.

Here’s how it played out in real life. Suppose I was in a situation where my beliefs differed a good deal from the people around me or I just didn’t understand what they were talking about. I had a tendency to remain silent in those situations, thinking that I had nothing to contribute to the conversation. That contributed to my tendency to get depressed.

But after reading Burns’ book I realized that, for the sake of my mental health, I could not afford to remain silent in those situations. So I started speaking up more. The result was that my self-awareness and self confidence improved, and I haven’t had another episode of depression in 15 years.

How does this relate to the topic of this post?


Why some DUers insist on spreading a message of doom and gloom

Many of us have political views and views on life in general that differ greatly from those of most Americans. Many of us realize instinctively, even if we haven’t read a book on the subject, that keeping quiet about those views will be dangerous to our mental health and won’t do anyone else any good either. Many of us who have thought a great deal about the subject believe that our nation is currently in a very serious crisis, and that there is a great danger that we will plunge into tyranny for an indefinite period of time. We see world wide catastrophe on the horizon.

We recognize that many people don’t want to hear what we have to say about this and that they will consider our message to be one of “Doom and gloom”. But we feel that these things are important to talk about anyhow. Not because we advocate giving up. We don’t advocate that at all.

The criticism that we sometimes face for our so-called “Doom and gloom” attitude reminds me a little of the criticism that we sometimes faced for so seriously questioning the results of the 2004 election and the state of our election system in general. I used to post a lot of articles on DU that analyzed “irregularities” in the 2004 election. Some DUers criticized us for painting such a bleak picture that we might dissuade people from voting. But I never saw it like that at all. Our analytical articles were aimed at trying to understand what was happening so that we could better improve our election system – not at dissuading people from voting. And I doubt very much that by doing that we dissuaded DUers from voting.

This whole issue reminds me of a running controversy between politicians and historians.
In 1995, a group of eminent historians produced a proposed National Standards for United States History. Because their document talked about the need to honestly depict some of the less than honorable actions of our nation in the teaching of history to school students, Lynn Cheney and many others criticized the report as a “grim and gloomy portrayal of American history”. Gary Nash, who played the lead role in the creation of the document, explained:

To be sure, it is not possible to recover the history of women, African Americans, religious minorities, Native Americans, laboring Americans, Latino Americans, and Asian Americans without addressing issues of conflict, exploitation, and the compromising of the national ideals set forth by the Revolutionary generation… To this extent, the standards counseled a less self-congratulatory history of the United States and a less triumphalist Western Civilization orientation toward world history…

Reduced to its core, the controversy thus turned on how history can be used to train up the nation's youth. Almost all of the critics of the history standards argued that young Americans would be better served if they study the history presented before the 1960s, when allegedly liberal and radical historians "politicized" the discipline and abandoned an "objective" history in favor of pursuing their personal political agendas…

On the other side of the cultural divide stands a large majority of historians. For many generations, even when the profession was a guild of white Protestant males of the upper class, historians have never regarded themselves as anti-patriots because they revise history or examine sordid chapters of it. Indeed, they expose and critique the past in order to improve American society and to protect dearly won gains… This is not a new argument. Historians have periodically been at sword's point with vociferous segments of the public, especially those of deeply conservative bent.

Nevertheless, the U.S. Senate unanimously rejected the document.


The bottom line

We do not feel in any way that by discussing what we consider to be the dire straits that our nation now finds itself in, “Doom and gloom” notwithstanding, that we are advocating “giving up”. On the contrary, we feel that we would be giving up if we didn’t talk about these things. In short, we feel that there is nothing of importance to be gained by withholding our views on this subject and everything to be gained by talking about it.

We recognize that there is little we can do individually that will make a recognizable difference in the short run. All we can do is say and stand up for what we believe and do the best that we can…. one… step…. at …. a ….time.

[EOTE]

1. K&R... Very good read.

I really don't know which side of the fence I should reside on. Surely, things seem almost as bad as I can ever remember them (though I'm only 28), but I can't help but think that we'll manage to pull through somehow. Assuming we do, it will be because of the hard work and dedication of folks like us on the DU. Hope this stays visible for those who really should read it.

[Time for change]

37. Thank you EOTE

I do think that the state of our nation is as bad as it's EVER been.

Nevertheless, like you, I am hopeful that we will pull through. I have to say that I don't know what it will take though.

[porphyrian]

2. I think both kinds of posts are important for various reasons. - n/t

[EOTE]

3. As do I...

I think it's important that we never get complacent because we think we're safe, I also think it's important that we never get too discouraged at the daunting task we have ahead. Hopefully we can remain at some sort of an equilibrium. We are experiencing very challenging times, but I'm convinced we can get through them if we remain united.

[porphyrian]

4. United in our goals, not necessarily our methods.

Methods are usually what we argue about, not goals. And as long as we keep the goals in mind, these arguments don't destroy us, they make our methods stronger.

[Robbien]

5. Thanks. You write very well and present a good argument

Exactly what I needed today after reading Taibbi's article in the Rolling Stone.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/16076312/the_great_iraq_swindle

Count me in the Doom and Gloom crowd.

[GeorgeGist]

6. When the destination is doom and gloom ...

I should cancel my flight.

[Time for change]

31. Doom and gloom isn't the destination

It's the view that many of us have of the current state of affairs in our country.

In that sense it may be thought of as a starting point. It is where we are at this point in time. After acknowledging where we are now, the next step is to figure out what to do about it -- how to make a better future for ourselves.

[BlooInBloo]

7. I think doom&gloomers are such simply because...

(1) They want to be the first to say "i told you so" to all those who hope for a better outcome, and

(2) It's viewed as cool to be more-cynical-than-thou, and you get to look down your oh-so-worldly noses at those naive children who have hope.

Fuck the worthless fucking doom&gloomers.

[WillyT]

11. Man... Where DID You Get Them Rose Colored Shades ???

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

12. I'm a PEOPLE PERSON!! Why can't you guys understand that!!??!!

:rofl:

[loudsue]

28. Yep...if anyone on this board would think that, it would be you.

The OP posted a great analysis of the see-saw we're all on here. You, Bloo, aren't even on the playground.

:kick:

[blues90]

38. Yeah maybe ten people out of ten thousand my think that way

Most I would not define as doom and gloomers but rather concerned citizens who no longer trust anything and with good reason .

It's not doom and gloom it's concern . hell look what's happened already . there is proof enough what they are capable of to put anyones common sense to work , and this is what it is , not doom and gloom .

Perhaps when or if there is some great shift toward the better and some hope added into the mix then the concerned untrusting citizen will be on guard and have something more positive to add . Until then everything is on hold and anything can happen .

I am not here to see I told you so , I get no prise for this none sense . I could care less if people want to put all their faith in some hopeful political move , citizens need to know they have some control over their situation , we have none other than hopeful voting fro who has the most money and who tells the best tale of what the people want to hear . that's all it is . Just more lies to unwind .

[Jim Sagle]

43. Polly Anna, is that you?

[BlooInBloo]

45. LOL!

[Shine]

8. Thanks for this cogent read. You raise some interesting points. K&R

:kick:

I agree with you it's important to call a spade a spade and recognize the dire straights our country is in, and I understand the distinction you're making about speaking of that stuff and yet NOT giving up.

There's value to be had in speaking the truth about what's going on, as painful and gloomy as that may be.

However, there's also value in keeping a bright vision of what we want to create in the world.

The tricky part is doing them both at the same time, without excluding the other.

[Time for change]

9. Thank you -- One thing I neglected to note in the OP:

I don't think it's a matter of doing both at the same time.

Rather, I think that before we can effectively create a plan for a bright future we must first acknowledge where we are in the present. Once we know and acknowledge where we are then we are best situated to figure out how to get to where we need to be.

[Shine]

15. so, what you're saying is we basically agree on everything but the timing

:D

It's all good.

[puebloknot]

10. K&R, as always for your posts. Heartfelt and well-organized!

I think it is quite generous of you to be willing to take on, at least for the purposes of this article, the appellation "Gloom and Doomer." But maybe I feel that way because by the standards you've outlined here, I am one, too. I think "Cautious (even Angry) Realist" is a better fit, but it's good to get a working definition on the record.

Unfortunately, I feel there's a group of people here at DU who are so devotedly Democratic, Big D, that any criticism is seen as disloyalty, when in fact the attitudes and fears being expressed by "Gloom and Doomers" arise because we are seeing the principles that have always defned Democratic, Big D, being torn down at such a breakneck speed that it boggles the mind -- not to mention the soul.

You were honest enough to mention your fear, and I think that's one thing we *all* share in common here. You're able to project forward enough to fear actual incarceration for your outspoken criticism of our current rogue regime, as am I. Others can't let their minds travel forward that far. They're afraid that loss of Democratic loyalty, loss of "control" in Washington will lead to more "mundane" things such as the loss of jobs, not being able to get health care, loss of homes. We all share those fears, but when you face the ultimate fear of being thrown in a camp and tortured, all the other issues are dead issues, anyway.

In some ways, the divide you're writing about here at DU comes from this more conservative group here who (from "The Wiz") "Don't Want Nobody Bringin' Them No Bad News." The feeling seems to be that if we just keep our hands over our ears and eyes, nothing bad can come in. Some days, I wish I could just do that, and stop spending so much time considering what's coming down the pike. At least, if disaster is just over the horizon, I'd like to enjoy the sunset today.

There are many examples in our history where a charismatic leader has been able to bring us back from the brink, psychologically, at least. FDR and Churchill in WWII were the sugar that made the medicine go down, in a lot of ways, and with their publicly expressed optimism, kept our two nations fighting for our existence. Some of that spirit is helpful today, for all of us, in our determination not to get too discouraged, and not to give up until the last possible moment, if then. It's just that we live in a more sophisticated world now -- or at least a world that allows us instant access to what's actually going on all over the world, and the "rally the troops" rhetoric of an earlier time doesn't work as well as it used to. Also, we have the hindsight now of the *total* picture of what happened in Europe and all over the globe in WWII, and those of us old enough to have personal (though second-generation) memories of those events cannot help but see certain very worrisome parallels between then and now.

I will acknowledge that I'm on a rollercoaster, personally, over my complete disappointment (to put it politely) over the failure of the Dems to live up to our group expectations of them. Some days I swear I'll leave the Democratic Party. Other days, I consider the merits of the candidates, and feel that, for example, if Edwards or Gore got the nomination, we might actually have a chance to take back the country.

I think the roiling exchanges we are seeing here are healthy, up to a point. Some "born again" party loyalists don't even seem to read the content of a post before they're ready to, *metaphorically*, have a hanging! :) But I feel strongly that even the angry posts (mine are certainly some of them) are important. I've read that people in high places read what's being said at DU, and that we've actually had some impact on certain issues. To tone down anger in favor of a united front here would *not* reflect the truth that loyal Democrats are enraged at the lack of performance on the part of our elected leaders. Once the election takes place in 2008 (if any), we'll face the same thing we do now, even if a Democrat becomes President. We're being ignored now, and they can continue to do it again because all we'll have is the threat to not re-elect them in four more years.

I am feeling a great deal of skepticism about whether We the People have any power left over our lives, except in small ways. But a certain way to assure such a loss is to sit down, shut up, show only a positive face, and never offend anyone. It may come to that, but for now, Glooming and Dooming still serves a purpose, in my view.

Thanks for a great and thoughtful article, as always from you!

[cutlassmama]

13. I'm in agreement with you. eom

[puebloknot]

53. Thank you! Pretty new here? Welcome. nt

[Time for change]

27. I think that we feel very similarly about this puebloknot

It's great to hear that people in high place read what we say here at DU, and that we have some impact. I'd like to know and understand more about that.

Here's a post of mine where a summarize an article from The Nation on that issue:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=356095

And John Conyers, when he wrote "The Constitution in Crisis", had a section at the end of his great report thanking the blogosphere for its substantial contribution to his research.

I too feel like I'm on a personal rollercoaster over much that is going on in our country, as are many DUers. I sure do wish that I could understand it all a lot better.

[puebloknot]

57. Thanks for that link. Bloggers and posters at DU and other venues can...

...take the gloves off and just speak truthfully and from the heart about what we feel and what we perceive intellectually.

I've seen a number of posts at DU indicating that our opinions are being taken into consideration. The friend who brought me here, and posts here regularly (Let's just call him Mystery Man :)) assured me that what takes place here is being noticed outside of DU.

I think we *all* would like to understand better what the forces are, operating behind the scenes, which are working to take away our freedoms. They may be laughing at us and our pitiful little posts online, but we may ultimately have the last laugh. Hope springs and all that, even as we *realistically* take a hard look at how we're going to tunnel out of this mess.

[jkoehler]

14. Some very interesting points

I have been thinking about this lately too. It took decades to get into the current mess we are in. I trace it back to the "Reagan revolution" when the idea that we needed to "get government off our backs", slash taxes and government spending, and then everything would be wonderful was sold very effectively to the American people. One congressional election is not going to change it and the new Congress is not going to affect significant change in only 7 months. Remember, the Reagan revolution started nearly 30 years ago and we have effectively been living under that idea of government ever since. I try not to be a gloom and doomer by remembering to face that reality. I do see signs that the mood is changing. The Iraq War, the Abramoff scandal, Katrina, Halliburton, even the recent collapse of the 35W bridge have gotten a lot of people thinking, "There is something seriously wrong with our country". True, the right wingers do what they always do and blame the "liberal media" but still, the first step to recovery is to get everyone to recognize that there is a problem and that it needs fixing. The second step is for good leadership to emerge. I just don't think we've gotten to step two, yet.

[rucognizant]

22. I go back 6 almost 7 decades.................

I was blessed ( cursed?) with an excellent objective memory! Oblivian would be a relief at times..........
For example, I remember Pearl Harbor. My memory is not a rational, critical thinking one, but an indelable impression of the horror, being held in a parents arms in the living room, all attention directed towards the upright deco radio in the room. WHen I was 13 my parents voed for Adeli Stevenson; ( & Eisenhower won)


I googled Adeli Stevenson: there's not even a Wikipedia entry for him! The most I could find was googling; Eisenhower campaign.
and got this........................
http://www.kennesaw.edu/pols/3380/pres/1952.html

WIth in that aricle, Adeli Stevenson was in blue letters underlined so I clicked on it and what did I get?
THIS!!!!! http://ap.grolier.com/
2004 Election
President Bush's 2005 State of the Union Address
The Inauguration of George W. Bush
The 2004 U.S. Presidential Election: The Winner Is George W. Bush
The 2004 U.S. Presidential Election: How We Vote
The Electoral College: How It Works
The Democratic and Republican National Conventions, 2004

From Classroom Magazines
Bush Wins!
(Scholastic News Senior Edition, 11/12/04)
Madam President
(Scholastic News Edition 4, 3/1/04)
At least Eisenhower tryed to warn us about the military industrial complex! What we are fighting goes back at least 4 generations probably 5. Not having been here I can't verify more than 4.
So yes, it is a big struggle for control & power, that we now see the dark underbelly is depressing, doom & gloomish to be sure......but the revelation is the beginning of correcting it!
If anybody has more info on Stevenson I hope you will share it. I am still clueless, except if my family voted for him he had to be good!

[Senator]

23. Here's a link for you

Wikipedia: Adlai Stevenson

I think there was a spelling problem. And that Grolier page seems to be a default location for no-longer-valid links. Stevenson is included on this page as a candidate with links to other sites.

Still, your original Kennesaw link does provide plenty that's relevant to this thread:

Eisenhower was a hero, so Stevenson was reluctant to attack him directly ... The Republicans sent out “hatchet men” such as Dewey, McCarthy, and Nixon to campaign against the Democrats ... The campaign for Ike used telecast of events that looked spontaneous ... Adlai Stevenson hurt himself because, as a political essayist, he found it hard to stay within the time restriction of television.

--

[KoKo]

35. Well Said! "....bewilderment, disappointment, and fear."

That's what so many of us are feeling. I think the FISA Authorization vote was the last straw in a series of capitulations that so many of us kept trying to excuse. Once that went forward and everyone left town saying they had been quote "rushed into voting on it" was when I knew...the reality of what we are faced with. The reports from the Town Hall Meetings Dems have had with their Congresscritters about the War and that Vote...haven't helped me feel any better or changed my mind that the FISA Vote was a turning moment for many of us.

There are feelings of bewilderment, disappointmen and fear because we have been abandoned. We will have to work with the fragile network we have here on the blogosphere and with other organizations to take back our Constitution. We aren't going to get help from the people who shut the door.

I don't know if that's "doom and gloom." To me...it's "grim resolve." And...I am fearful that it's going to take so long we might not be able to do it.

[Time for change]

56. "Grim resolve" -- That's a good one

These kinds of things generally do take quite a long time.

Often the individual contributions that we make do not produce visible results until succeeding generations. Sometimes it is well that we just be satisfied to know that we're trying our best and we may not live to see the results of the contributions that we make.

I realize that that sounds kind of gloomy, and I myself generally feel the need for more immediate feedback as to whether my actions are having an effect. But sometimes we just need to do what we can and take pride in the fact that we did the best we can.

[Time for change]

46. "The revelation is the beginning of correcting it"

Yep, that's the bottom line.

[Time for change]

44. "The first step to recovery is to get everyone to recognize that

there is a problem and that it needs fixing."

Agreed. That's a mighty big problem when we have the kind of "liberal media" that we do, but it needs to be done.

[OwnedByFerrets]

16. K & R

[Mythsaje]

17. Hmmm.

"Optimism in dark times is more important than we realize, because optimism is a light that shows us paths we might otherwise not have seen."

I agree that we should be aware of how bad things are, and how bad they COULD be. But as much energy as possible should be directed toward the things we can do to constructively DEAL with the problem.

I think most of us are well aware of where we stand, and what the stakes are. No one (at least no one with any sense whatsoever) is denying it. So when someone posts the doom and gloom stuff, there's almost a knee jerk reaction to say "Yeah, we fucking KNOW already...we don't need to hear it again!"

:shrug:

It doesn't add anything new to the conversation, and it's certainly not helpful.

Just my take on it.

K & R anyway.

It's worth discussing, I think.

[puebloknot]

55. "... *we*fucking KNOW already..."

Unfortunately, we who know are in the minority, and a lot of people come to DU and just lurk, or arrive for the first time, and have a chance to see that DU is not just a mindless cheering squad but a place where a great variety of opinions get expressed -- such as this thoughtful OP. "The conversation" may be old to some of us, but new to others who are just checking in.

I've observed that just in this thread there are a number of people with a very low post count. Paranoia could say we're being invaded by "freepers." But we were all at 50 posts at one point. The content of the post pretty much tells us that new people are here and wanting to join in a dialog about our mutual prospects for the future.

I couldn't agree more that just engaging in negativity is not helpful. But playing Pollyana is the opposite pole on that field. I think that before people hit the streets in Poland years ago, in Mexico and South America recently, to protest corrupt politics, there was something in the wind that drove the to take action.

I absolutely agree that energy need to be directed to a solution to problems. We just don't know *what* to do, and we can't stop discussing where we are as a first step to knowing where we're going.

[pingzing58]

18. Hello my name is PingZing and I'm a Gloom and Doomer.

I'm in recovery now after we Dem's took the house and the senate (kinda). I thought for sure and argued gloom and doom with my friends who believed that the "Moral Majority" would win again on the abortion issue and so called family values issues swaying countless of religious Dem's away from our candidates. But wow, I have hope now. (Round of applause please) Even though my Democratic vote (straight ticket) here in Texas does nothing to influence our Presidential elections (Tom Delay took care of that here), I believe that "the times they are a-chainging." Maybe, just maybe, my vote might count in a this presidential election. So, let's talk up Repug hypocrasy: Liars, Cheats, Opportunits, Adulterers, Greedy, Mean Spirited, Self-agrandizing,....so that's my story.

[anniebelle]

19. Hi, I'm Ann, I'm a Gloom & Doomer

Feel like I'm among friends now. In all my years on this planet, I've never felt so hopeless as when this bushbot got in for a second round of his evil. My husband and I worked so hard here in Tennessee, writing letters to the editor every 30 days, talking to neighbors (who just love buuuuuuuuuush here in my area) getting hate letters from the knuckle draggers who can actually read our letters, seeing all those yellow ribbons on the Hummers riding up and down our streets. In this last election cycle, even dared to put a Harold Ford, Jr. sign in our yard -- oh, the nerve! And then, when we sorta took control of congress, we were elated, but then the rusty rod of reality struck! We got a house full of bush dogs, they like to be called Blue Dogs, but they are loyal bushies all the way. I appreciate your writing this article, as it helps me to know I'm not alone.

[loudsue]

29. Ping..you forgot "perverts"...

:kick:

[dennis00]

20. I've always been a democrat.

Before Nov. 2006 my song was "Born to lose. I've always been so blue." I guess a depressed dem is a blue blue because expecting much fom Pelosi and Reid and this congress can be depressing. It's like we won the battle but are losing the war. But cherk up. Nov. 2009 is only year and two months away. Yay.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

21. You don't threaten someone to get their cooperation..

Not if you're really smart and really evil..

What you do is you threaten their *loved* *ones*.

Far more effective.

And far more difficult to guard against.

The anthrax mailer is still on the loose.

[peacetalksforall]

24. OK, I'll accept that I'm a d & g'er, but I prefer 'realist'. What Kucinich

told us was real. I'm also a resistor. For decades, a few visionary, more realistic people than I have told me there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans. I resisted those words and kept on 'seeing' differences. I listened to words of inspiration from Democrats (I can't ever remember one word of inspiration from a Republican in decades). I believed.

Now, it boils down to hypocrisy. If we are too believe Kucinich (and I believe he is about the most credible legislator out there), then the hypocrisy is overwhelming and that is what I despise in Republicans.

OK, let's divide doom & gloom between our leaders and their followers.

Republican leaders - no doom & gloom there - their goal lifts them - controlled profit, non-accountability, control of the masses, slave like submissive labor.

Republican followers - some sick quality makes them oblivious to destruction and death. Many of them are not smart enough to relate anything to the Constitution or reserve it and many have been brainwashed with a new reality to the point that they live in another world.

Democratic leaders - we put all our hope in them and thought all we had to do was make them winners. Now, I'm at a loss to label them - I no longer consider them representative of my beliefs. I think it is the worst kind of cheating to partner with Republicans. It pains.

Democratic followers - doom & gloom'ers vs ? .... realist? unrepresented realists?

Hypocrisy is a nasty, ultimate betrayal. And approving and authorizing (by abdicating approval and existing rules) the deaths of Iranians is chilling and despicable. Choosing massacres takes a lot of guts. Who knew they would show us those kinds of guts.

It's not me - to be a doom and gloomer. It's them. They just told us corporations and barons rule. We are nothing.

And I haven't even read the Rolling Stone article yet.

[Time for change]

25. Yes, I agree absolutely -- "realist" is a better, more accurate term for us than "Doom and gloomer"

I used "Doom and gloomer" to describe us in the OP because that is the term that has been applied to us by some of those who criticize us. So I took that term and went with it.

But you're right, because that is a perjorative term, and it almost implies a type of person who sees things through a prism that causes everything to look worse than it is. And like I make clear in my OP, I don't believe that at all.

[peacetalksforall]

26. Yes, to me, a doom and gloomer can't lift themself up. In reality,

we must fight and now we must fight our own. But, first we learn and teach. If there is time.

I didn't say thank you before - it's a terrific piece.

[lligrd]

41. Exactly What I Tell People When They Call Me A Pessimist

and the reason we insist on sharing "reality" is in hopes that it will awaken people and force change.

[Larry Ogg]

30. Doom and gloom might be what I see and at times it seems a curse,

But I have learned and accepted that being able to see what I see is not a curse at all; it is just being able to see what others don’t…

You OP speaks very well of how I also feel, I even think about that dungeon scenario on occasion myself, just waiting for that knock on my door for calling the unelected occupants of the White House Nazi Fascist. Oh well, at least we will have a lot of good company.

Also my experience with being around other people, is usually being quiet and trying not to make sense out of their fifty word vocabularies, mouths going a hundred miles per hour saying the same things over and over, seldom does something understandable or worth talking about ever comes out, sad part is that they seem to like it that way.

I could think and write about your OP all day, I don’t think there is much if any that I could disagree with, certainly there’s some things I could add, and definitely much to discuss but time is critical when posting on DU.

Oh, and by the way I just wanted to say Dr. Dale, this country wouldn’t have a snowballs chance in hell if there wasn’t people like yourself getting out the truth. We are not the doom and gloom; we are just the reporters…

Larry

[Time for change]

47. The ones who see what is going on are the ones who

are WILLING to look.

We can't address a problem unless we're willing to look at it and think about it without distorting it by seeing it just in the way that we WANT to see it. That's the way that too many Republicans choose to look at our nation.

I don't look at it as a curse either. It's necessary IMO.

[robinlynne]

32. I agree with your Op, and I also think that this moment in history makes me,

at least, go back and forth. There are days when I am so shocked and appalled by the magnitude of what is happening, and the fact that it keeps getting worse and worse and worse, even though what they are doing has now become obvious for even those who would rather not see, that I feel as if we are losing, and we cannot change it. Then there are days when I get up, fight back in some small way, and feel the blood in my veins again, feel the unity with like minded thinkers, as for example, when the ACLU files a great lawsuit, or the truth leaks out somehow. Then there are days, when a progressive group here calls for a demonstration at a republican congressman's office for impeachment and against the war. I think, what's the use? But I go anyway. I drive for an hour in traffic to get there, to a very red area, and I see hundreds of people together on the street, even though the action was announced only one day beforehand. And I know it was worth the drive.
But the depression and fear need to be talked about as well.
If not here, then where?

[Time for change]

51. Yes, if not here then where?

These are extra-ordinary times, and we would do well to recognize that. In fact, that's why DU was created.

[pitohui]

33. imho this post has "too many notes" as they say

my problem w. gloom and doom is that it promotes helplessness or it's even counter productive, you might as well book first class if you're sailing on the titanic

also i DON'T think it's mentally healthy to indulge in d&g, sure, we all do it, but such "venting" is not healthy, it's unhealthy wallowing, think about what gets your blood pressure up? distracting yourself w. something you CAN do...or thinking/talking/writing about an area where you are completely helpless to do anything other than spread your doom & gloom to infect others

i'm human, i can't resist the occasional "jeez it's hopeless" post but i try to cut it short and either not post on negative topics or try to point out some positive action that might be taken

venting, wallowing etc. never helped anyone, if this is the lesson we took from freud, we need to send it back

a stiff upper lip did more to win ww2 than any amt of wallowing and venting, we need to look back and learn

[hfojvt]

39. my complaint is with a lack of accuracy, not a lack of productivity

The old 'glass half full, or half empty' quandry, but taken to the extreme. A thread of DU will, instead of being a thoughtful essay like this OP, will simply be two lines like "Democrats are totally useless, when are they gonna grow a spine?? Impeach already!!" followed by a chorus of 'amen' from the choir or short cynical comments like 'they can't go against their corporate masters, can they?'

Maybe if there was a rule that posts on DU need to be at least 100 words long, we could have a real discussion instead of a barrage of cynical one-liners and/or snarky comments. Although I am sure you will note that some of the venting can be long-winded too.

I think venting can help. In my first week on a new job, I was attempting, without any training, to clean out the fryers. When it clogged for about the fourth time and my first two attempts to clear it (with the coat-hanger they had supplied for me) had failed, I shouted out to the empty room - "screw it! I am quitting this job and just gonna fu$%ing walk out of here." I meant it too, and I knew that I could, especially since I was still working my other full-time job. But that burst of anger calmed me, and I tried again and cleared the clog, and stayed at that job for another two years.

Even a post of "I am mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore!" could be a call to action. Sadly, I find that most of them are a call to inaction - no more donations, no more volunteer work, switching to a third party, rooting for Cindy, voting 3rd party, etc. That seems like giving up though, because if we cannot make the Democratic party more progressive with our actions, then what hope is there of making the nation more progressive?

[pitohui]

49. ok that's a valid point thanks EOM

.

[puebloknot]

58. "...if we cannot make the Democratic party more progressive..."

That is the rope at the end of which we are all swinging!

The easiest and most desirable scenario would be one in which we are "mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore," and...gloriosky...our Dem leaders sit up and take action.

They haven't done that so far, and it's getting harder and harder to keep being *positive* in the fact of some stark truths. So if we can't depend on elected Dems, what can we do? Unless we fat and lazy (metaphorically speaking, of course) Americans get up and protest, as citizens in South Ameica, for example, have recently done, we're going to get spoonfed a pablum we're not going to like. It might be too late already to overcome the assault on our constitutional democracy. Facing that truth is not *venting* but giving serious thought to the issue.

Please don't take this personally, but this is good place to express how much I abhor the term "venting." It implies that *hot air* is being released, and dishonors the possibility that a complaint is genuine and has merit.

We all engage in one-liners sometimes, and although I think mine are dreadfully clever, I check out when I see the ones that some others post -- especially when it really does get into personal sniping. I fear, though, that your wish to insist on at least 100 words is edging over into the tyrannical. And consider this: It's possible to post a 100-word "one liner" that would annoy 100 times more than the shorter version! :)

I like your idea of the call to action. The Right-Wingers are *very* organized in their deceit. I think we progressives shy away from anything that smacks of group-think. But Move-On has had some success. I just wish they'd become a little more proactive in the direction of *really* holding this rogue regime to account. It's well past time for the gloves to come off!

[Time for change]

62. 3rd party candidates

I pretty much agree with what you say here, except I have mixed feelings about what you say about 3rd party candidates, rooting for Cindy, etc.

On the one hand, in 2000 and 2004, for example, I very much hoped that Ralph Nader would not run and that if he did, nobody would vote for him -- for obvious reasons. Yet at the same time I respected the decision of people who chose to vote for him, and I didn't even personally hold it against him for running -- even after he cost Gore the election. I just felt that he had made a very bad mistake, and I believe that he was very sorry for it, even if he didn't say so.

But as Democrats do things like accede to Bush's demand to violate our fourth amendment rights, vote for bills such as the Military Commissions Act, which essentially puts our nation on the verge of dictatorship, fail to end the war, and fail to make a move to impeach Bush and Cheney I become terribly upset and must seriously consider myself whether it might be good for our country to have a real 3rd party movement. My initial reaction to such a proposal is agreement with it, and the only thing holding me back from fully agreeing with it is that any serious third party movement is likely to split the liberal vote and hand victory to the Republicans. But the worse things get the more I wonder about ways to do it that won't destroy our country.

[Time for change]

42. Yes, it depends how "Gloom and doom" is used

I agree with you that if used in certain ways it can be unhealthy and dispiriting.

I meant it in another way, and perhaps "gloom and doom" doesn't capture well the way in which I meant it (see posts 24 and 25), but I used that term because some who have criticized us for being outspoken about how bad things are have used that term. But as higher class says, perhaps "realist" is a better word to describe us.

[pitohui]

50. yeah i like "realist"

i guess i'm thinking more of the "woe is me, all is lost" crowd

[puebloknot]

52. I think the OP made the point that looking realistically at where we are...

...and keeping a stiff upper lip, taking action where we can, are not mutually exclusive.

Looking up and seeing a hurricane heading your way, and warning those about you, doesn't mean you're going to just sit down and whine at your bad luck. Acknowledging the oncoming event is the first step in doing something to stay alive.

[pitohui]

54. agreed puebloknot

good points all round

[bleever]

34. I really appreciate this thoughtful post.

It's the kind of essay that really adds to the richness and breadth of DU.

Thanks.

[TheDoorbellRang]

36. Thanks

Wish I had enough posts to recommend. :-)

[Time for change]

60. Welcome to DU DoorbellRang

:toast:

[LiberalUprising]

40. Good article on this subject here

WHAT TO DO? WHAT TO DO? Taking Action In The Face Of Collapse

Every time I write an article on collapse such as my most recent one "Happy Independence Day; You Have No Government", I am bombarded with emails asking me "what should I do?" For those who have just discovered this site, that is a legitimate question because for them, the reality of collapse may be new. Those who have been following this site for some time have heard many suggestions on what to do, but this article will offer those and other suggestions again more clearly and more adamantly than they have been offered here before. The intensity you are likely to hear in this piece is driven by the urgency which I and many of my peers are feeling at this moment. Quite frankly, it's time to quit screwing around with talking about collapse and start acting. The Rubicon has been crossed, we're not living in Kansas anymore, and we are living in the closest thing we've seen to pre-World War II Germany than anything since then. Suit up and stop theorizing and speculating. It's showtime.

http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/48/3

[puebloknot]

48. I read Carolyn Baker every day. Thanks for this post.

Ms. Baker is a history teacher and activist who teaches at the University of New Mexico. She's pretty much given up on the political process being able to save us, and is pretty much focused on how we're going to survive after collapse of life as we've always known it.


Here's a great quote from that link you posted:

One of my favorite mantras is a quote from Derrick Jensen: "We're fucked, and life is really, really good." Amid the dismal we need fun, joy, play, lightness of heart, art, music, poetry, songs, stories, and creativity of infinite varieties. Yes, I know, it's a tremendous challenge holding such opposite emotions in the same body, but that is our work in the face of the end of the world as we have known it. Recall the words of Morpheus in "The Matrix": "I didn't say it would be easy, I just said it would be the truth."

Gather we rosebuds...but let's keep talking, and keep holding our political leaders' feet to the fire.

[NanceGreggs]

59. Good read!

However, I, for one, don't think that the doom-and-gloomers and the game-over people (as I have termed them) are one and the same.

The doom-and-gloomer says: "These are the horrific facts about election theft, electronic voting, caging, voter discrimination, etc." We may not want to hear those gory details, but we MUST. It is a reality, and we have to face it if we hope to combat it, and finally change it.

However, the game-over guy says: No matter what you think or do, the upcoming election has already been decided by Diebold.

The doom-and-gloomer says: The country is in a fuckin' mess, and let's not kid ourselves about what we're up against, even with our own party and our own candidates, as we head into the 2008 election.

The game-over guy says: There won't be an election in 2008. Bush and Cheney are going to cancel the election and declare themselves prez and VP for life.

We've all (well, most of us) been doom-and-gloomers ourselves at certain points, and many of us tend to dwell there for long periods of time when it comes to dealing with certain issues. After the Torture Bill passed, I spent days thinking about throwing in the towel. I figured if my country would allow THIS to happen, of all things, there was no hope - all truly was lost. But luckily (and no small thanks to DU), I got my fight and my hope back - but it was an uphill emotional battle to stay in the game, believe me.

Basically, the doom-and-gloomer is down, but never out.

The game-over guy, on the other hand, is always down AND out - and he can't seem to resist injecting that attitude into even the most positive of discussions.

The game-over people are certainly not legion here on DU; but there are a few of them, and they get me pissed-off in the extreme - not because they don't have a right to their opinion, but because I can't help but wonder at their motivation in posting here.

[Time for change]

61. Fair enough

But sometimes the distinction is difficult to make, and sometimes people mistake a doom and gloomer for a game-over person. For example, you say:

"The doom-and-gloomer says: The country is in a fuckin' mess, and let's not kid ourselves about what we're up against, even with our own party and our own candidates, as we head into the 2008 election.

The game-over guy says: There won't be an election in 2008. Bush and Cheney are going to cancel the election and declare themselves prez and VP for life."

I believe that there is a very good chance -- I judge it at about 25%, and I'm afraid that I'm being wildly optimistic -- that our elections will be cancelled in 2008. I've said that a number of times, and I've said that that's one more reason why Congress should remove Bush and Cheney from office as soon as possible, before they have a chance to consolidate their power even more than they already have.

Some people think I'm absurd for believing that. I think that it's aburd not to consider it.

Another example: Someone once criticized a post of mine on the grounds that it involved ideas on how to win the 2006 election. She told me that it was worthless to discuss anything other than election fraud because nothing else mattered. I could have considered her a "gave-over" type of person because of that, but I didn't and I don't. Rather, she chose to focus on what she considered to be of over-riding importance.

I don't know if I've made my point on this issue very well, but what I'm trying to say is that I think that a lot of the time it's easy to think that people are advocating giving up, when my interpretation is that that is NOT what they're doing. And that's partly because I don't think they'd post here if they had really given up.

[NanceGreggs]

68. I think you've made your point very well ...

... and I think you've also made my point for me.

"I believe that there is a very good chance -- I judge it at about 25%, and I'm afraid that I'm being wildly optimistic -- that our elections will be cancelled in 2008."

I don't believe there is a good chance of that happening. We both have our reasons for believing as we do, and that doesn't make either of us right or wrong.

However, seeing you post that statement does not read to me (nor to anyone, I would hope) as saying: "The cancellation of the 2008 election is a done deal, so accept it."

It's just my opinion, of course, but I don't think the line between doom-and-gloom and game-over (as we've both used the terms here) is a blurry one. I think the difference between the two is crystal clear.

I, too, was bitterly berated during the lead-up to the mid-terms (perhaps we got hit by the same poster!) on the "no other issue matters" thing. I'm afraid some of our fellow citizens tend to become a bit over-zealous on one issue, and allow that zealotry to blind them to the fact that when you're in a boat that's full of holes, you can't keep it from sinking by insisting that everyone put all their efforts into plugging one hole, thereby allowing the others to go unattended.

But I never thought of her as a game-over type, not even for a second. The game-over poster simply would have said that Deibold had already decided the 2006 election already; done deal.

I do have a problem with one type of doom-and-gloomer, however - and this type is certainly not plentiful, but they are out there: I don't appreciate being told that if I am optimistic, or post something hopeful, or cheer some positive piece of news, that I am obviously unaware of what's going on in this country.

I am on this board every day, and I can't help but know what's going on, in all of its gory detail. I don't avoid bad news, I don't ignore how bad things are, and I don't delude myself into thinking that if we all just get together and adopt a positive attitude, everything will be honkey-dorey.

By the same token, a little hope, a little optimism, a little cheering of a step in the right direction should be part of the process of getting to where we need to be.

[Time for change]

72. People who tell you that you don't know what's going on in this country

Those people are just being rude. Their problem isn't doom and gloom, they're just being rude. If they think that you're being too optimistic they should express their disagreement without being so rude about it.

I think that some people use hyperbole because they feel desperate to make a point. Saying "the game is over" is one way of doing that. In my experience and in my opinion, when I've seen those kind of statements my feeling is that they're making a desperate plea to people to consider how serious the situation is, rather than advocating that we give up. My saying this would make more sense if I could supply an actual example, but it would probably take me quite some time to find one.

[NanceGreggs]

79. It IS rude, but what I'm on about is beyond rudeness ...

Today offers a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Posts on Gonzo's resignation (and I'm paraphrasing here):

"Will the Dems show some spine when the confirmation hearings begin for Gonzo's replacement?"

THAT's a pretty negative-sounding premise, but it DOES invite discussion, asks for others' opinions on the matter, and could trigger some positive action on OUR parts if it proves necessary.

"Bush will nominate someone even WORSE than Gonzo, and the spineless Dems won't waste any time confirming him."

THAT does not invite discussion, nor does it 'educate' anyone, nor is it a call to action to make our position known (in future, once we even KNOW who Bush's choice will be, and have a sense of how the Dems are reacting to it).

THIS is the game-over guy I talked about, and my question to him would be: "Why are you here?"

This site exists to promote the Democratic cause - and again I question the motives of those whose only purpose here seems to be to nay-say everything the Dems do - in ADVANCE of them even being faced with a decision to be made, or an action to be taken.

It's an old cliche, but it still holds true: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

[Johnny Noshoes]

65. "Basically, the doom-and-gloomer is down, but never out."

If "they" shower a thousand arrows down upon us we'll just have to fight in the shade.

[puebloknot]

69. I think this is a too-rigid categorization of we flawed Dem humans.

I've often posted messages about "the 2008 election (if any)" because everything we read leads to the *possibility* that the horrors we would never have given credence to a few years ago (Patriot Act, loss of habeus corpus, etc.) will lead us right into a further power grab, possibly fueled by another "terrorist" attack, and a cancelling of elections. It's not a tinfoil hat idea. There's historical precedent for this kind of tyranny, and so far we're following the playbook that produced it to the letter (with our own American variations on the theme).

I imagine others are like me in that they tend to post when they're upset or worried, but *don't* post their "Gosh, ain't the sun shining today" stuff. I think we're all looking for personal and community equilibrium, and that these exchanges here are important.

For what it may be worth, although I disagree with your current stance on this "giver-upper vs. trudger-on'er" (my term, not yours) argument that's going on, I have often read your rants, on my darkest days, and have taken courage from them.

And...as someone with 1000 posts, but still a relative newcomer here, I think we have to be careful about questioning the motivation of people who post here and don't seem to measure up to the standards of longtimers here. Sometimes people are just feeling their way. I've posted things I've later either regretted or wished I'd been a little more clear about.

Nothing would please me more than to rise up every day and see true progress out of our darkness and into a new light in 2008. But most days, given what I read and hear from reliable sources, that old phrase, "There are none so blind as those who will not see" still seems to hold sway, out there and in here.

There are those who believe (and they are legion here in Santa Fe) that the power of positive thinking will save us. I, myself, am a dabbler in the concept of the power of the human mind over outer events. I find it fascinating and worth considering and trying to practice. But I've also seen the downside of positive thinking, and that is a failure to move out of the way when a quarter-ton truck is headed your way. "Not in my world," is the artifice used to put the problem in someone else's world!

I am not wise enough to know how to balance out realism and denial in our current situation, but I am often reminded of a situation in which I was attending a convention with a bunch of positive thinkers and, looking up at a rapidly clouding sky, said: "Wow, I hope we don't get our outdoor picnic rained out." Positive Thinker Lady quickly admonished me by assuring me I would bring on the rain with my negativity!

I once dated a physicist who had two sons, both of whom had AIDS. The younger died at 34, to our great sorrow. The older son soldiers on, and insists that he will win his battle. I spoke to his rational father about hope, and was advised that I was only nurturing his *false* hope by helping him to entertain ideas of victory over the *reality* of his disease.

This reality versus denial question is not a clearly-defined, black-and-white one. Let the conversation continue!

[Trillo]

63. Regarding Gary Nash's excerpt and its unanimous rejection.

It is much harder to remember alleged history when the cause and effect behind everything represents a "cleaned" and "sanitized" fiction. Logic then fails as a memory aid.

It seems it is part of keeping us, the great masses of people, confused.

[windoe]

67. Just my 2 cents...

This is an excellent post and thread. My observation is that this country is so vastly diverse that we are all challenged when it is time to unify. I would really love reading some good ideas on what we all need to do to get the country back.
The true 'left' and 'right' in this country support the Constitution.
The neo cons and people who have been bought and/or brainwashed by them are what we are up against. These are 'true believer' types (a la Erich Hoffer) that warrant study, who resist recognizing that their beloved leaders are corrupt
This is the time to outright boycott mainstream propaganda and stay focused on reality and real events. The spin machine is working overtime to distract the American people with a lot of useless information

I hope this post survives. Many of my posts seem to have disappeared quickly, and I am trying not to worry.

[bdamomma]

77. welcome to DU windoe!!

mainstream media needs to pay dearly regarding the trash they are reporting to people, they could turn this country right side up again, if they reveal the truth to the american people, and thus spark those who are not paying attention to sit up and say something is not right here. In regards to the Doom and Gloom scenario, I try hard not adopt that feeling, but something I can feel myself slipping into that gray area, but again, I will not surrender to these thugs and I really don't think many will, if push comes to shove we will push back!

[Time for change]

78. Welcome to DU window

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that your posts have disappeared. Do you meant that they're gone for good or that the original post to which they're attached gets archived? If you want to pm me I might be able to explain how you can find your posts.

[Karenina]

71. A very old pic from DU...

[Time for change]

73. Absolutely

Our leaders do us a great disservice with their attempts to sanitize our history. It's one reason that we make the same mistakes over and over again.

[tom_paine]

64. Kick, but can't rec. I would if I could. Excellent piece.

I cannot add anything else.

[Time for change]

76. Thank you -- The idea for this post came together in my mind as I read posts like this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3472580&mesg_id=3473506

[Gonzo Gardener]

66. I not only agree, you took the words right out of my...

head!

I haven't posted the required amount of times to start a thread, yet. I had seriously considered tackling this topic for my first offering on DU and was, just this morning, mulling it over in my head. You have said it all so well, thank you.

It is comforting to know that there are others here at DU who are of like mind. I don't talk to the wall nearly as much now that I have this outlet.

:toast:

[Time for change]

74. That's great to know, that you find this comforting

Welcome to DU :toast:

And it's not too late to do your own post on this, if you have additional things to say about it.

[puebloknot]

70. A relevant cross-post to this topic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3478690#3478702

Solomon quotes these lines approvingly, but his goal is not just to make us aware of what the U.S. military state is doing, but to stop it. He offers no hope that we can, instead arguing that the demand that we be ever optimistic is another assumption imposed on us by the media, and something we can get along without. That may be, but clearly optimism breeds activism which in turn increases both the grounds for optimism and the likelihood of success. The fact that Solomon has done what he's done, seen what he's seen, and continues to insist on sanity and disarmament, should provide us at least with inspiration. That's a good enough substitute for optimism in my mind, so who am I to say it won't do for others as well?
http://www.davidswanson.org

[Time for change]

75. "Arguing that the demand that we be ever optimistic is another assumption imposed on us by the media

That's a great point that I hadn't thought of.

Too much optimism can breed passivity in the face of great danger.

[puebloknot]

80. Yes. It's a way to keep us dumbed down and compliant. nt