Nugent? Freedom of speech? I don't think so.

[Joe Fields]

With freedom comes responsibility. The example most often given is that you cannot yell 'fire' in a crowded theater. (unless there is a fire) Nugent's actions onstage, coupled with his remarks are actually quite dangerous. He may not have overtly threatened any of the Democratic candidates, but we all know the crowd he panders to. They scare the hell out of me. The people who follow Nugent are such extremists that it wouldn't be too far fetched for any of them to take what he said one step further and actually try to shoot a candidate.

I believe that the Secret Service and the FBI need to haul that asshole in and question him thoroughly, as well as give him a civics lesson in responsible civic behavior. I don't know if those were real weapons he had with him onstage, but the authorities may want to question him about those also. If nothing else, he deserves to be harassed good and proper for making such inciting remarks.

[Avalux]

1. He needs to be humiliated in front of his adoring fans.

There's a lot of things I'd like to do to that sexist piece of filth but I can't say them here.

[Joe Fields]

4. I gotcha...

[Starbucks Anarchist]

50. I think performing that crappy music is humiliating enough.

[w8liftinglady]

2. man,I hate the fact that I actually liked Ted in High school

what a piece of shit.

[Joe Fields]

5. You're not alone on that score. I really liked his music, dating

back to the Amboy Dukes, but I had no idea at the time what he was like as a person. I won't listen to any of his music now. Someone needs to send a bullet on a journey to the center of his mind.

[wtmusic]

10. Cat Scratch Feverrrrrr,

duh-duh-duh DUH

[muntrv]

3. Here's someone to draft into the Iraqi surge.

:evilgrin:

[treestar]

6. Good point! Why doesn't this bastard threaten the terrorists

he and his ilk claim to be in abject fear of every day?

[Joe Fields]

7. For all his talk, he'd crap his pants if he had to face someone that shot back.

[awoke_in_2003]

9. He already has

he bragged of getting out of the draft by showing up for the draft physical wearing pants he wore for a weak, which were crusted in his feces and urine.

[Joe Fields]

14. I know about that. But I'm saying, if someone actually was shooting

back at him, or if he had to drive along a road boobytrapped with IED's, he'd really crap his pants.

[wtmusic]

8. Nugent was within his rights

There was no threat, veiled or otherwise. He's a tough-talking punk like Ann Coulter who's best ignored.

[annabanana]

13. Like yelling fire in a crowded theatre..

encouraging his fans to mayhem . . .

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2007/08/24/ted-nugent-threatens-to-kill-barack-obama-and-hillary-clinton-during-vicious-onstage-rant/

Decked out in full-on camouflage hunting gear, Nugent wielded two machine guns while raging, “Obama, he’s a piece of shit. I told him to suck on my machine gun. Hey Hillary,” he continued. “You might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless bitch.”

You see no threat in that? Really?

[wtmusic]

25. Put it this way

On an almost daily basis I see similarly comments directed at Bushco around here.

Cuts both ways.

[Hobarticus]

18. Nuge suggests that Obama put his gun in his mouth...

...wait, scratch that, he wants Obama to "suck it".

Nuge wants a woman...no, scratch that, a "worthless bitch"...to "ride" his machine gun.

You know, I'm a free-speech kinda guy, too, but hate speech is hate speech. Doesn't have to be a threat.

[wtmusic]

27. Unfortunately, it's not illegal to hate

Wait, scratch that. *Fortunately* it's not illegal to hate.

It's free speech.

[Hobarticus]

31. So, there's no such thing as "hate crimes", only "free speech crimes"? nt

[wtmusic]

35. Hate crimes laws are illegal

I've been over this debate time and time again.

Hate crimes laws punish offenders for two different "crimes" -- the crime itself, and the motive behind the crime. The motive behind the crime is indistinguishable from free speech.

I'm longing for the day when SCOTUS wipes all hate crimes laws from the books, and the blight of this hypocrisy is eliminated.

[Hobarticus]

40. So, you say there's no such thing as a "hate crime"...

Because it's essentially making free expression illegal. No matter what that free expression says or incites others to do, or what harm it does to others. Fascinating.

Yeah, I suppose for anyone who'd think that trying someone for a hate crime is a violation of their free speech, it'll be a great day when burning a cross in a minority family's yard only gets a ticket for littering.

:eyes:

Hoo boy.

[wtmusic]

52. Not quite

There's a lot of law that backs up the 'yelling fire in a crowded theater', open threats, extortion, etc., but most other illegal forms of speech are nicely covered by libel and slander laws.

IMO in historical context a cross-burning can be properly construed as a threat of bodily harm (in addition to vandalism, not littering) and punished accordingly.

Do you believe it should be illegal to hate someone, for whatever reason? That not only crimes but their motives should be punishable?

[Hobarticus]

54. Hate and a hate crime are not the same thing

One is an emotion, the other is a violation of another's civil rights as an outlet of that emotion.

Hate is not illegal, nor can it be. I never said that.

Using that same "historical context" as a rule of thumb, there are countless felony crimes throughout the country in the last century that were just never investigated or prosecuted, because the victims weren't white. So using historical context of, say, Alabama circa 1950, it's just as likely that someone could burn a cross on a lawn and walk. Or get away with even worse, perhaps with a slap-on-the-back from local law enforcement. Don't pretend that you're not aware of that.

Actually from a standpoint of basic civil liberties I understand your point-of-view, and I know where you're coming from, but I also think it's dangerously naivie to pretend that everyone in this country has always been protected under the full extent of the law. In a perfect world, there would be no need for hate crime legislation. But in a perfect world, Cindy wouldn't have to beg the President for ten minutes of his time....would she?

[wtmusic]

59. But the bottom line is that you're arguing

that an offender should justly receive additional punishment for his/her opinion. That is in fact punishing an opinion, and is a violation of A1. If anyone is truly traumatized enough by another's opinion and the manner in which it's expressed, there are already civil remedies in place, as well as a body of very unsettled, so-called "harassment law".

Obviously historical context could not apply to a decision whether to prosecute, only to whether the action constitutes a threat. If someone points a gun at you it is a threat whether they actually announce, "I'm going to shoot you", or not.

I see possibilites of hate crimes applying to political parties -- "that antiwar sign violates the civil rights of all Republicans" -- and thus IMO it's important to take stock of ourselves and see where this tack could be abused. As odious as these crimes are punishment of people's opinions solves nothing and takes civil rights into dangerous territory.

[Joe Fields]

58. If he made those remarks about Guiliani or McCain, see how fast

he'd get his ass hauled in by the FBI.

[OzarkDem]

29. Sorry, no

He was waving weapons and making a threat against two presidential candidates. That's not only stupid, its against the law.

[wtmusic]

37. What was the threat? nt

[madeline_con]

34. If he isn't under arrest, it's just free speech from the fringe. n/t

[fightindonkey]

11. You Cannot Threaten Someone's Life, Especially A Politician's

[orleans]

12. when did this happen? n/t

[annabanana]

15. see post #13. . . . eom

[orleans]

21. thanks. i followed the link and posted a "lovely" comment. n/t

[cosmik debris]

16. Pleas write a letter to the editor

Of the Waco Tribune Herald. He writes a weekly column for the paper and I think it should stop. This is the perfect opportunity to shut his filthy mouth.

[e-mail]

[PassingFair]

17. I used to listen to "The NUGE" on my radio alarm in the mornings...

I kept the alarm radio on a dresser across the room.
I would lay in bed until his DISGUSTING RAVINGS would
cause me to leap from my bed to hit the off button.

Some mornings I would wake BOLT UPRIGHT to rush to
the clock, and I am a NOTORIOUSLY heavy sleeper.

[Puregonzo1188]

19. As much as I disagree with Nugget, you're wrong.

Accord to the Supreme Court in the 1968 case Brandenburg v. Ohio the government can only limit speech if includes only an "abstract advocacy of violence." Speech can only be censored if it meets the "imminent lawless action" test, which means before a law officer can reasonably respond. This replaced the "clear and present" danger criteria which was used to put members of the Socialist Part in jail who were against the first World War as well as communist who called for a revolution. In fact, in the Supreme Court Case that created the "clear and present danger" criteria is also where the fire in a crowded theater line comes from. Clear Nuggets comments do not meet the imminent lawless action as a law enforcement officer has had more then a reasonable time to respond, thus Nugget's comments are Constitutionally protected as free speech under current Supreme Court precedent (but I wouldn't expect that to last much longer).

edit, I meant to say as much as I disagree with Nugget, not you. Sorry

[Bjorn Against]

22. Considering these are Presidential candidates with Secret Service protection however...

The law is much tougher. It is illegal to even joke about violence against them, and what Nugent said goes far beyond joking. I think there may be a strong case against him here, whether the Secret Service will pursue it is another matter entirely. Of course if anyone on here said the same thing about Bush their door would be knocked down about five seconds later, whether they will go after a prominent right-winger for threatening Democrats is another matter entirely.

[Puregonzo1188]

28. I don't believe the current Supreme Court precedent makes any exceptions

for Presidential candidates or people with secret service protection. Besides, I doubt anyone could take what Nugget said as a serious threat.

[Bjorn Against]

33. The law is different for people who have Secret Service protections

Whether or not the Supreme Court would view this differently has yet to be tested to my knowledge, but the law as it is written now makes Nugent's words illegal assuming they are perceived as threatening(and honestly I don't know how anyone could claim that waving a machine gun around and telling someone to "suck on this" is not threatening).

[tabasco]

49. Statutes protecting prominent national figures are a different analysis.

National security and all.

Your analysis is for run-of-the-mill disorderly conduct and incitement ordinances.

Nugent could easily be found to have run afoul of these special statutes, and the statute found constitutional, if challenged.

[bbinacan]

20. As disgusting as that is

free speech is the trump card.

[Bjorn Against]

23. It has never been considered free speech to threaten the lives of Presidential candidates

[bbinacan]

24. I watched the video

and I didn't see a threat. Maybe it's just me. Many here at DU could be accused of the same thing. You know I'm right.:smoke:

[Bjorn Against]

26. Really? Waving a gun around and yelling "suck on this" does not seem like a threat to you?

I know if someone was telling me to suck on the machine gun they were waving in their hand I would feel pretty threatened by it.

[bbinacan]

30. All an act.

[Hobarticus]

32. You know that, and I know that...

Does the impressionable troubled young man with the twisted sense of right and wrong in the front row know that?

I don't see non-right wing performers putting this "act" on.

[bbinacan]

36. As I said earlier

many on DU have made threating comments to the President. How is that any different?

[Hobarticus]

38. Were they waving machine guns onstage, by chance?

I'm gonna guess, no.

That's how it's different.

[bbinacan]

39. A threat is a threat

no matter how it's delivered. Do we agree on this? I may not respond tonight. I have to get up early to go tubing on the Brazos river.

[Hobarticus]

41. No, we will never agree on this.

But hey, have fun tubing. Hope the weather's nicer there than it is here.

[bbinacan]

42. We agree to disagree and

I can appreciate that. I'm in Texas. Where are you?

[Hobarticus]

44. Deal!

I'm in NE Iowa, soaked to the bone. A solid week of heavy rain. Some scattered flooding here and there, some towns have no water.

'Nuff of my problems. Tubing's a hoot. Have a blast and cold one!

[Mz Pip]

43. Can't make stupid

illegal. That's what Nugent is - stupid. He's as dumb as a box of rocks and is cheered on by others who are just as dumb. if not dumber.

I saw an interview with him on Glenn Beck or some such show whining about how hard it was to find good musicians to play with him in the 60's because they were all too stoned and smelled bad. They probably didn't want to play with him because he was a stupid asshole way back then, too.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[OzarkDem]

46. Ted was stoned in the 60's too

We used to go to his concerts in the late 60's, through about 71 for laughs. It was always like a carnival sideshow.

Nugent didn't have a right wing, racist, violent rap back then. His emphasis then was on drug humor. He used to get high right on stage and imitated smoking a huge joint during "Papa's Will". (He really must have hated his father) And he played with mostly the same band members all that time, getting just as high as they did. I was really surprised when he came out with his right wing schtick later on, he was such a big druggie.

He's such a liar, I'm surprised anyone would fall for his BS.

Ted, we enjoyed laughing at you during those years; your concerts were a cheap laugh. BTW, we never bought any of your albums, either.

[Mz Pip]

48. That's funny

I never heard of Ted Nugent way back then so when I saw that interview I figured he was not at all involved with any of the good times of the 60s. He made it out to be above it all.

What a hypocrite. :rofl:

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Hobarticus]

51. Odd, this strange phenomena is going on with my brother

Little more than just a casual druggie, though: he has some serious dependancy issues. Ordinarily someone I'd feel empathy for, until...

He hit fifty and became the Most Obnoxiously Angry White Man ever. Not a shred of irony to his rants.

Outside of egomania devolving into sociopathic bitterness, I wonder what makes yesterday's burners today's angry assholes.

[blogslut]

55. Because while other pot smokers

...were trying to come up with solutions to the problems of the world, guys like Nugent were out back getting the dog high.

[tom_paine]

45. Yeah, and Hitler will rise from the grave to restrain Julius Streicher's excesses

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Streicher.html

Please. Loyal Bushies don't prosecute Loyal Bushies. End of story.

[Colorado Progressive]

47. Why dont they consider this asswipe a national security threat?

How many US Senators does he have to threaten? What a piece of shit. I am starting a petition against him.

[BenDavid]

53. Where is the response from the powerful

on the left as there were about the Dixie Chicks? If that silly comment, " We are ashamed the President is from Texas" brought all that hate, and vemon then where are the calls from our ones on radio, tv, newspapers, etc etc...

Ben David

[Bjorn Against]

56. The problem is there are no powerful people on the left who get booked in the media

Alright Keith Olbermann may be an exception, and I expect he will have something to say when he comes back on Monday. Aside from him though all the "lefties" they will allow on any of the networks are people who are afraid to seriously challenge the Republicans.

[Wcross]

57. Mission accomplished for Ted.

Everybody is talking about him. Publicity good or bad keeps his name out there. Not bad for a guy who is playing in small venues and hasn't had an album come out in 20 years or so.