Do Progressives believe a person can be rehabilitated?

[cherokeeprogressive]

Or does it depend on the crime? Are some crimes so egregious that the perpetrator SHOULDN'T BE GIVEN A SECOND CHANCE, EVER? Is that a good belief for "Progressives" to be beholden to?

I've seen heated argument here about whether or not a MURDERER of HUMANS serving time should be given a state-paid-for sex change operation, and the prevailing response was YES, gender identification is in the eye of the person whose skull the eye is in (play on the "eye of the beholder" cliche).

So, let's say Michael Vick decides to ADMIT to every crime he's committed in respect to canines, REPENTS, and serves every day the state says he should.

Does he deserve the same second chance good "Progressives" believe every other person is entitled to?

If your answer is yes, then once he's released, shouldn't he be allowed to pursue the only career he's qualified for? Say, a career as a quarterback in the NFL? AFTER getting out of "stir"?

[jgraz]

1. This poll needs more bias

One or two people might not be 100% clear on what your point of view is. Could you beat us over the head with it just a bit more?

[dorkulon]

21. lol right? nt

[Colorado Progressive]

2. we dont need people like that as role models, sorry nt

[Colorado Progressive]

5. and if you want to be a positive public figure act like it nt

[ecstatic]

3. Only pedophiles and child murderers deserve a second chance. Vick: NO!

:sarcasm:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2965594&mesg_id=2965594

[whoneedstickets]

4. Rehabilitated, No; Saved by the power of JEEEZus, sure...

No amount secular contrition, training or counseling can reform these evil people only purging their souls of the devil through accepting JC can change them. No accounting for superstition.

[Critters2]

6. The idea of objectivity is difficult for you, isn't it?

And as for "the only profession" crap...he's had at least two professions. Football, and running a dogfighting ring.

And yes, he should be banned from both.

[Bluebear]

7. A thief may come out of prison with debt paid to society, but "rehabilitated"?

How could a good "progressive" (your quotation marks) know if someone is "rehabilitated"? Did he get trade training in prison? Did he receive psychological evaluation and treatment? Who evaluated his state of "rehabilitation" and readiness to go back into society? Good "progressives" (your quotation marks) on the parole board?

[TahitiNut]

8. The least frequent answer on DU: I don't know.

:shrug:

[Double T]

9. Some afflictions have no cure and can NOT be rehabilitated.

'progressive' has nothing to do with this.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. Do gambling and killing dogs qualify as "afflictions that have no cure"?

and if so, what to do with the perpetrators of same?

[Double T]

22. Torturing and killing dogs certainly qualifies.

Perpetrators: 25-50 Year prison terms.

[Bluebear]

32. Yes, killing dogs in this instance is sociopathic and cruel.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. No, we don't have the resources or the will to work on those afflictions

Besides, calling it an affliction gives up the game. If somebody is sick, why would you punish them? Shouldn't you treat them, given your own terms. Or did you not really mean "affliction?"

[Fearless]

17. Exactly.

[Double T]

18. What would YOU suggest we do with a sociopath or psychopath........

that has committed the crime of multiple murders combined with torture? Why don't YOU establish a facility where YOU can treat them for their incurable affliction.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

20. Treating them inhumanely

Certainly makes us better people, eh?

[Double T]

25. Should the BTK killer be treated humanely?

Wish we could ask his tortured, murdered victims what they all think. The BTK killer is certainly receiving much more humane treatment than his victims ever knew.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. I have the very radical idea that all living human beings should be treated humanely

It's a little thing about the meaning of words (human, humanely). I know. Trifling. But if you didn't believe in this AS A PRINCIPLE, you would have no quarrel with the BTK killer in the first place.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

31. So you wish to exact revenge?

When we treat even the worst among us inhumanely, we lower ourselves to their level.

I do not wish to be on a level with such people.

[Double T]

38. Revenge? Who said ANYTHING about revenge?

The BTK killer is being treated much more humanely then he treated his victims. Revenge???

[The Vinyl Ripper]

43. I definitely get the impression that you think the BTK killer..

Whoever that is.. Is being treated too humanely for your taste.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. That's the job of a society, not the private individual

And there would be plenty of people willing to do that if it could be done correctly with the proper resources and training. Like I said, the will and the resources. It may be that some number do have to be kept from society forever. But that number is far smaller than that projected by people today. To be fair, many people making these projections are keeping the reality of current resources dedicated to such a thing in mind. But it goes back to my point. There is no sound science that says these people cannot be treated. There is sound policy saying that they cannot be treated given our current allocation of social resources and knowledge.

But please, go on. Make this about ME. It really speaks to your scientific temperament...:eyes:

[Double T]

36. Let's take YOU and ME out of this discussion and turn it over..........

to the the EXPERTS:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/04/lkl.01.html

Again, there is NO CURE.

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. This is really something

YOU brought "YOU" and "ME" into it, not me. Let's get that straight first.

Second, the link you provide actually proves my point. These people talk like scientists. You talk like a rabid ideologue. They are gaining knowledge on these phenomena, but they repeat again and again that they don't know, there is no sound science on it, and we need more knowledge about these phenomena, to wit, from YOUR link:

1) "If they don't process the emotional content, they are not empathic, they don't have any sense of what they've done to somebody. And we're finding that brain studies are, in fact, pointing to this. We don't know this for sure yet, but it may be the case that that would indicate they're born to be that."

2)STOUT: The sad news is at present, we really can't cure sociopaths. And in point of fact, they're not asking us to cure them or help them. Many sociopaths, if you interview them, they will say that they feel just fine, thank you very much. And infact, if it's a disease, it's a disease without any dis-ease attached to it.

And no, where there is no conscience, we do not know yet how to instill one.

3)STOUT: That I think is one of the most fascinating questions facing psychology these days. What do you do if you can diagnose sociopathy?

You know in advance that someone has no conscience and is likely to hurt other people, what do you in a free society with information like that. Not only do psychopaths like to fool law enforcement, they have begun to like to fool people in the mental health establishment as well. There's a kind of gamesmanship that goes on there.

And Berkowitz, if we look at your interview of David Berkowitz, he was saying more or less what we would have had him say to convince us to be on his side, if you will, to convince us that he was starting to be cured. And I think that it is sometimes difficult to sort that out from the mental health establishment's wish to cure such people, and such people's ability to sound like anything they want to sound like.

4) But I wouldn't want to diagnose him and put a label on him without having met him at all and put him through the proper kinds of tests. These diagnoses are usually fairly complex deals. You can't just decide somebody is a psychopath.

5)nd, to answer the question about the brain versus learning, and how could somebody have something wrong with his brain and look as good as Scott Peterson did, what we know about the brains of sociopaths is fascinating. And it is -- we're beginning to understand that there's not the same kind of reaction to emotional stimuli as there is in the normal brain. That doesn't necessarily mean an urge to kill, that just means that the sociopath is not attached to other people the way you and I are.

6)RAMSLAND: Well, it's hard to say if it's inherited or it's role models and family legacy issues and socioeconomic conditions. It's hard to pinpoint exactly that. But there does seem to be some genetic influence in that.

7)The serial murderer has absolutely no family history going back three, four, five generations of serial murderers. And that's why we think it's a genetic aberration that occurs prenatally.

But in the sociopathic families, and there are tremendous generational changes, but it's never brain or behavior or environment. It's a combination of those factors in those people. It's role modeling.

If you go back to old psychology which people have tended to throw out with all this new science and supposedly solving everything. We do know that the formation of conscience and the formation of various types of behavior come in what we call a preconscious level. And we've not been able to tease those factors out. But we know in the plain garden variety sociopath there definitely is a family link.

The only time they really slip into ideology is here:


MORRISON: Well, how can a butcher cut up a side of beef? It's the same thing to a serial killer. It has absolutely no meaning. We're horrified. We're horrified when we found out that Ed Gain (ph) was making certain body parts part of his belt. We were horrified when we saw what Jeffrey Dahmer was doing. We were horrified. But the problem is we're human, they're not. So them, it's nothing.

KING: They're not human?

MORRISON: It doesn't mean anything. No, they are not human.

Needless to say, that is not a scientific judgment, but a moral/philosophical one.

[Double T]

52. But I thought YOU said they talked like scientists.

Today, right here, right NOW, there is no cure with the available understanding and knowledge.

[alcibiades_mystery]

56. That's correct

We don't have the resources and will, just like I said. The people you cited speak very much like scientists. They say that they don't know enough about the phenomenon. That's what I said earlier in this thread. You rant and rave as if the the case is closed, a sure sign of an ideologue.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. Second point

It's also a matter of people asking the wrong questions. Suppose that instead of these "fascinating" individual cases, the question was a real public policy question. Suppose this was submitted to our panel:

If we made a concerted push - say $100 billion over 10 years - to research this phenomenon, to dedicate substantial resources to everything from making it a priority in the psychological and psychiatric establishment, to funding policy thinkers to develop better solutions, if we put the full weight of social effort into this problem, do you think at the end of ten years we would have a better understanding of it, and a better policy to deal with it?

I would like to see how your experts answer that one, since that was, after all, my initial point.

[pitohui]

10. i don't know why a dog abusing fuckwit can't play football

when he gets out and has done his time, i see no reason why he can't play if he still qualifies

i do not believe anyone is well served when the only jobs parolees can get are sticking a gun in my face to rob me

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. Oh, I'll do you one better

I think that in most cases, life sentences are inhuman. I believe that almost all prisoners - with the exception of demonstrated sociopaths, should be reintegrated into society at some point. I believe life without parole sentences for people under 30 are despicable in almost all cases. I believe only a very small percentage of people should ever die in prison. I believe something like a "working life" sentence would improve the condition of our prisons. I think sentences of 20, 40, 60 years for property crimes are outrageous.

I know I'm in the very small minority. The majority of my country-people are barbarians: vengeance junkies. Hell, a very large number of Americans think rape is an appropriate punishment in a civilized society. A very large number believe that death by torture is an appropriate punishment in a civilized society. A goodly number believe that the role of a prison is to drive the offender insane, and they therefore believe that driving people insane is appropriate punishment in a civilized society. People who believe these things are barbarians, little better than the vicarious murderers who enjoyed watching people burned to death or dropped into burning oil. Indeed, people who believe these things are little better than the criminals that they so bloodthirstily seek to mete out justice to. But I'll live with my minority status on this one.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

19. You aren't alone...

I agree with you alcibiades_mystery.

[The Straight Story]

34. I think the idea is: People won't understand what being a victim is until they are one

And putting the perp in prison might give them a sense as to what it is like to be violated (not physically speaking here).

IF that person gets how bad it sucks to be a victim, they are rehabilitated. If they get out and then do the same thing...

I have a good friend who has done time for arson, murder (did 6 years on that one), robbery, making funny money, assault, selling cocaine, and a litany of things.

He was still my friend and neighbor, but no way in hell I would hire him or ask him to watch my daughter.

Instead of helping society, or being neutral, he has continually made the life of others hell (the arson charge - he burned a guy's house down whom he thought had killed his brother, and did not care who was in it at the time, then he found the guy later and killed him).

He hates anyone of a color not white, and brags about klan rallies he has attended in Southern Ohio. He is overall one nasty son of a bitch. He is my friend though as I have known him 40 years and he has never done anything to me personally, and was a good neighbor while I lived near him so many years.

He WILL be back in jail, it is just a matter of time before he steals from someone else, kills someone, beats someone.

He has not changed in the slightest, and it has affected the lives of his kids and others greatly (his 15 yr old son has 4 kids by different girl friends and has already done time for robbery and assault).

He KNOWS what it is like to have everything taken from you, to be beaten, etc - and yet he still does those things.

There ARE positives about him, have posted in the past about him and he can be a really decent fellow. But overall, at 41, he has done more crimes than anyone else I have ever met (so much so the cops know him very well, and some have bought dope from him - and as an X cop I can tell you, they know all the good dealers and can make really good deals...)

I *DO* AGREE with you though on things like: "sentences of 20, 40, 60 years for property crimes are outrageous" - but I would temper that with some judges see a longer history of actions (or have to give mandatory sentences, which I think are bunk).

I knew a Judge Dale (forget his whole name) who came to my school once (back in 1982) and talked about justice and a case where he had no choice but to sentence some old lady to a term he did not like based on state guidelines - for a petty theft. I went on later to work security at the hall of justice and used to see him daily, and I can tell you many other judges hated having their ability to 'judge' a case ripped out from under them.

"I think that in most cases, life sentences are inhuman. "

I don't agree with that. In SOME cases, but no MOST.

(ps - disagreeing in a friendly way, not flaming ya here. I respect your opinions even if I don't agree.)

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Point taken

Still disagree, but point taken.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

44. Since you are a former peace officer

Perhaps you can explain why America has the highest incarceration rate in the world?

[The Straight Story]

49. Well, a few reasons I would toss out there

A lot of laws for one. We had a guy come in one night, pulled over for speeding - but forgot to pay his fine for fishing without a license. No record, never did anything bad or been arrested before. But the cop had little choice since there was a warrant out for him.

Also - we are a huge country. Not just in land mass and people, but in states, counties, and towns/cities. Each has more and more laws and we spend a lot on hiring people to enforce those laws. We don't have the fine tuned controls of a smaller country. Imagine if Africa or south America were all one country.

Russia and China - well, I don't trust much in the way of numbers from them :)

We also tend to punish more crimes with time in jail than other countries (I am guessing on that) - crimes which are things like having drugs on you, even if you have not taken them, etc.

There are also people who WANT to be in jail. Yeah, you read that right. A homeless guy we used to get in on a regular basis named Willy was one of them. Gets mighty cold in Ohio in the winter when you are homeless. He would walk into a store, Kmart was one of them, and pee on the floor - just to get arrested on a Friday night so he had someplace to stay the weekend that was warm and offered free meals.

If I had to sum it all up: Poverty and the failure of the government to help provide the most basic needs we have - and when you cannot meet those needs legally, like being able to feed the family and such, you turn to illegal means. On the upscale of that is the image crook - someone who thinks they need more than they have and so get involved in white collar crime cause they have to have that better house an nice vacations.

Couple hundred million people, throw in alcohol and drugs, good dose of poverty and a slack government, mix well with image issues people develop from media and a poor education system - and you get a really fucked up place at times :)

[The Vinyl Ripper]

55. Actually "incarceration rate" refers to prison, not jail..

Although your point about the homeless man looking for a warm place is well taken.

Here is an interesting statistic..

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/world.htm#west




Isn't America supposed to be the land of the free?

[The Straight Story]

12. There are two things going on here, you are only addressing one

The NFL is a business, and they have an image to maintain. If they keep him on, it could hurt the whole of the NFL.

And we all know how important big business and money is - which is why so many favor companies being able to fire you or not hire you for smoking at home (as but one example). And so here we have a business that is deciding that it is in their financial interests to (perhaps) not allow him to be a part of their organization.

SHOULD he be allowed to? Uh...well yeah - IF the business wants to take that risk. The government does not have the place here to tell them he cannot be playing football (although - give that time as well and the govt will tell you more and more who you can and cannot have work for you).

Would YOU hire him to work for you?

[enki23]

15. he should not be legally banned from playing football

However, the NFL has the right (and some would say the obligation), as a professional organization, to revoke or suspend his association with the National Football League on ethical grounds. Like, say, Pete Rose was banned for life for betting on baseball. Like a lawyer can be disbarred for legal, but extremely unethical behavior. Like a medical doctor, or a psychologist can have their license to practice revoked, even for unethical behavior not directly related to their profession.

[Fearless]

16. You ask if he can be rehabilitated and then change the poll question

to if he is rehabilitated when he leaves jail.

I say he could be, but not as a result of his present impending sentence and jail time. I can't choose the "no" answer, because he would have paid his debt to society and should be allowed to play. And I don't want him to die either. So I'm stuck.

[Jesse Hemingway]

23. As long as

As long as Al Davis owns the raiders Michael Vick will have a try out. Other then Michael's performance was showing signs of declining it maybe over for him anyway.

[U4ikLefty]

24. I wonder where you stand. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

26. Maybe he could learn a new profession while he's in prison. n/t

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Double T]

42. Quit giving up DU state secrets, will ya!

Now toss me another human I can throw to the lions!

[Skittles]

28. the prison term I think that bastard deserves

he would be way too f***ing old to play football when he got out

[Sanctified]

33. Depends on the Crime.

If we are talking about someone stealing bread then yes, if we are talking about someone who likes to rape children then no.

[Douglas Carpenter]

37. I cannot think of a crime that disturbs me more

First of all, I am a genuine bona fide dog lover; Platonic of course.
But I love my canines and indeed they love me.

But on the bigger question when I think of for example of human serial killers -- as awful as it is and I know I sound like the ultimate bleeding heart liberal, but I feel at least some sadness for them. Because I know that in the vast majority of cases you are dealing with extremely tortured minds that have in most cases suffered greatly in life.

Other crimes I can think of which seem monstrous usually involve obsessive compulsions that the the individual either cannot control or has very, very limited abilities to control. And there really isn't anywhere to go for help except to turn oneself in for incarceration. And again we are dealing with people who themselves have in the majority of cases lived deeply tortured lives; lonely and sad lives.

I get the impression that dog fighting does not usually involve people who are suffering from a tortured mind or sad decrepit lives. It involves, at least I suspect it does, people who are essentially normal who have lived fairly normal lives. And they have consciously chosen to involve themselves in a practice that is nothing short of a completely purposeless and absolutely unnecessary cruelty that escapes my imagination.

Still, yes when Mr. Vick has served his time and if he demonstrates genuine remorse and a commitment to change, I do believe in giving people a second chance whenever the possibility exist.

.

[The Straight Story]

41. I think maybe people want him to have the same chance he gave the losing dogs

which ain't much :)

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. and I certainly understand those feelings

I was watching on Animal Planet just the other day on their show "Animal Cops: Houston" -- and it showed a bust of a dog fight facilility. I tell you if ever I felt the impulse to shoot someone down in cold blood it was when seeing what they had done to those poor dogs.

I certainly understand the feelings because as much as I love my dogs and how human like their emotions really, really are,-- (only a lot more loving) the very thought of someone treating such a wonderful animal that way completely boggles my mind.

EULOGY TO THE DOG
By Senator George Graham Vest in the case of Old /Drum delivered in Cooper County, Missouri 1870


“Gentleman of the jury, a man’s dog stands by him in prosperity and poverty, in health and in sickness. He will sleep on the cold ground, where the wintry winds blow and the snow drives fierce, if only he may be near his master’s side. He will kiss the hand that has no food to offer. He guards the steps of his pauper master as if he were a prince.

“When all other friends desert, he remains. When riches take wings and reputation falls to pieces, he is a constant in his love as the sun in its journey through the heavens.

“If fortune drives the master forth an outcast in the world, friendless and homeless, the faithful dog asks no higher privilege than that of accompanying him to guard against danger, to fight against his enemies; and when the last scene of all comes, and Death takes the master in his embrace, and his body is laid away in the cold ground, no matter if all other friends pursue their way, there by the graveside will the noble dog be found — his head between his paws, his eyes sad but open in alert watchfulness, faithful and true even in death."

link:

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2007/Aug/20070810Feat001.asp

.

[TygrBright]

39. Which person?

In the case of Michael Vick, howthehell should I know? I don't know the guy. Personally, I can think of some VERY NASTY things I'd like to do to him on behalf of all the animals he's tortured, but that's just self-indulgence.

I'd have to learn a LOT more about the guy, do a thorough assessment and observe him over a long period before I could make a judgement like that.

Questions like this only encourage a simplistic, snap-judgement approach to complex human behaviors. Don't we have enough of that as it is?

disgustedly,
Bright

[Fovea]

40. As a progressive

I believe in that victims of crimes do not receive closure from punishment alone. How much greater when the victims are animals...

I believe that society should be protected from those with profound psychopathology.

I believe that torture is inhumane, but that many who torture claim to be human.

Vick has no right to a career. So many in our society with better potential have no ability to make a career, and work menial jobs instead.

If he can demonstrate that he is not mentally unbalanced after whatever punishment the state feels is appropriate, then by all means let him attempt to improve himself. But as long as sports pretends that athletes are somehow more moral and better examples than, for example, teachers, then no, Vick is not eligible for professional athletics.

OTOH, Alberto Gonzales should not be allowed on the other side of the bars for the rest of his life, or until all of the victims of his torture policies say he should be free.

That level of depraved indifference is not often rehabilitatable, and both Vick and Gonzo should work jobs that are both menial, and highly supervised for the rest of their lives.

Professions demand ethics, jobs only demand that you perform them. Vick might find that work as a sanitation worker is more in keeping with his nature.

[Bluebear]

45. PS what do Michael Vick and gender reassignment surgery have to do with one another?

[Garbo 2004]

46. NFL is the only career he can pursue? He can do no other job? Please.

Enough with the exceptionalism of celebrity athletes. Especially while working class folks who aren't multimillionaires are getting laid off from jobs through no fault of their own.

Nothing entitles Vick or anyone else to an NFL career. Aside from the criminal charges and the bad PR, the NFL really isn't happy about his association with illegal gambling.

[Nutmegger]

50. Once he has paid he debt to society, then yes he deserves a second chance.

If he doesn't see the error in his ways, then he'll return to that lifestyle and will eventually get caught again and must face a jury.

But if he has changed his ways, at the very least stays away from the lifestyle, then he should get another chance.

The trouble is that that person has to be committed to their rehabilitation and no arm of the state can force someone to do that, but to broad-brush every single convicted criminal and say that rehabilitation is not an option is wrong IMHO.

That's why I believe that rehabilitation should be available to each and every person, because there are people who are committed to changing their lives for the better. It's far worse to have someone who is willing to turn their life around and deny them that chance.

The trouble in American is that once a man/woman is condemned, he/she is condemned for life and that's that. That's why the incarceration rate is the highest. If one is unable to fully integrate into society, then what lifestyle do you think they'll return to?

[orleans]

53. from what i've read, a pedophile will always remain one. n/t

[kdmorris]

54. Err... are there any other options?

Like "Vick is POTENTIALLY rehabilitated after serving his time and should be put on probation like everyone else".

His "sentence" of throwing him out of the NFL is separate from his sentence of being in prison. If I do something illegal and get arrested for it... let's say dog fighting and racketeering, my company is damn sure going to fire my ass. They will not keep my job open for the 4 years (or however long it takes) of my prison sentence. And when I get out, they aren't going to want a criminal working there. Now, we can discuss whether it's fair for ex-cons to be viewed that way, but right now, they are.

And I think it would be a larger travesty of justice to allow another rich and famous person to get special privileges just because he can throw a football.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. Sinner And A Saint

The only difference between a sinner and a saint

Is one man's saved and the other ain't...


If he serves his time, and is genuinely repentant I see no reason why he shouldn't get the chance to resume his career...

Nothing in my view detracts from the heinousness of the crime...