"The President of the United States has been leading a war on science."

[Ilsa]

Well, said, Sen. Clinton, just now on the cancer forum on MSNBC to Chris Matthews and Lance Armstrong.

[AX10]

1. Creationism is utter bullshit!

[MonkeyFunk]

2. Yes it is

but she's talking about more than that. The President's opposition to stem-cell research, his funding priorities, his muzzling of scientists. She's doing very well.

[eagler]

3. I would fight as hard to keep Creationism from being the only

view being espoused as I would Darwinian evolution. Freedom of thought is what is at stake here and both views have serious flaws.

[Beelzebud]

5. Freedom of thought, doesn't include teaching religious philosophy in the science class.

[eagler]

8. Agreed. But it does include the teaching of alternative theories to

Darwinism. Whenever you hinder rational theories you hinder constuctive thought.

[kestrel91316]

16. What's the alternative to genetic variablilty and natural selection,

leading to the process we label "evolution"?

Invisible sky people snapping their fingers?

[whoneedstickets]

24. What rational alternatives to Darwin can you propose?

Rational as in falsifiable, empirically based, logically consistent and deductive systems of explanation?

Anything with god in it is by definition irrational.

[eagler]

36. Agreed.

[Beelzebud]

45. Creationism is not an alternative theory to evolution. Period.

It has no room in the science class. Maybe a philosophy class, but it has no place in science.

[MonkeyFunk]

6. Nonsense

to compare the flaws of darwinian evolution to the flaws of creationism is just dumb.

[eagler]

10. yours is one opinion and you are disallowing others - that's bunk

[Ediacara]

12. There's a pretty big gulf between observed fact and religious dogma

to label both as "opinions" is disingenuous.

[eagler]

17. Need I remind you that Darwinism is an observed theory not observed

fact. you seem to have a problem with the freedom of thought thing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. You seem to have a problem with basic science.

We're talking junior high level science here.

How old are you?

[eagler]

23. Basic science itself has changed drastically over the years and it will continue to do so.

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/08/08/885258-fossils-challenge-old-evolution-theory

[mudesi]

25. That does NOT make creationism valid

I repeat: That does not make creationism valid.

[eagler]

30. Never said it did . I believe in Evolution, but have serious problem with

Darwinism - although I have great respect for the man.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Of course...

that's like saying you believe in gravity but have serious problems with Newtonism.

[eagler]

33. Even Newtonism has flaws as is being proven as we speak

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. Well then by all means...

lets teach alternatives to gravity in schools, like how heavier objects fall faster than light objects in a vacuum. We wouldn't want to squelch other people's opinions.

[Bandit]

47. Well one alternative to the Theory of Gravity is the world sucks

Let's teach the sucking alternative. :silly:

[Beelzebud]

50. Sam Sedar used to push Intelligent Falling.

:D

I miss his daily radio show...

[Ediacara]

38. What's Darwinism?

In your own words.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. It changed drastically 160 years ago when Darwin proved Evolution.

That hasn't changed yet, and it's not about too.

There are still plenty of scientifically illiterate people around, like your misreading of the article demonstrates.

[eagler]

32. Sorry to disappoint you, but ...

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/08/08/885258-fossils-challenge-old-evolution-theory

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Yeah, you already posted that.

If you'd bothered to read the article critically, you'd notice they found a fossil of a creature which is part way between being an ape and being a human.

It's more evidence for evolution, not against it.

[Ediacara]

37. This doesn't discount evolution at all

Did you even read it or just the headline? It's a pretty sensationalist headline because something more realistic like "Early Homo speciated peripatrically" sells hardly any papers.

[Ediacara]

35. You can think that evolution hasn't been observed all you want

that doesn't make it any less factual for me to remind you that it has been.

[karlrschneider]

41. So if my opinion is that the earth is flat, should that get equal time too?

:eyes: :puke:

[eagler]

If you can support it by observable empirical data - sure

[karlrschneider]

51. I have just as much as exists for creationism. Is that sufficient to give it equal time in science

class? Or are you just being silly here today...?

[Beelzebud]

46. You seem to have a problem with the scientific method...

Creationism has no place in the science classroom.

Oh BTW, what is Darwinism?

[MonkeyFunk]

15. don't care what you think

if you think creationism and evolution share the same scientific validity, your opinion isn't worth considering.

[eagler]

21. You have proven my point.

[slowry]

42. Careful; your hands might get sore, from waving them around like that. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. I, for one, am sick...

of these teachers teaching their opinion that the square of hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the square of the remaining sides, and not being open to alternative opinions.

It's called the Pythagorean Theorem not the Pythagorean Fact, Morans.

[Ediacara]

11. Serious flaws? Like?

[kestrel91316]

13. Hmmmm - what serious flaws does Darwinian evolution have?

As compared to creationism?

What part of genetic variability and natural selection over the course of BILLIONS of years is so difficult to understand?

[whoneedstickets]

18. Flaws? Sure...

..except one approach is intellectually honest enough to admit the flaws and open them up to falsification through a scientific process of evidence gathering and the other considers itself to represent the inerrant and unquestionable word of god. Please don't attempt to rhetorically place these two 'approaches' on an equal intellectual footing.

[mudesi]

19. Stop it

Just....Stop it.

You're wrong. Admit it.

[eagler]

44. Thanks for the spirited debate, it was enjoyable and entertaining

My point here was not to support creationism or darwinism but to challenge anyone, regardless of their beliefs, who would discourage freedom of thought. I personally believe that creationism has no place in a science class but I also believe that challenges to Darwin's view of evolution and Newton's law of gravity are to be encouraged when supported by empirical, observable data. Frankly, I think we are on the same side here.

[stopbush]

40. Yes. And let's make sure we have alchemy class right after chemistry and

astrology right after astronomy. Can't have only one "scientific" view espoused.

[Ilsa]

4. Yeah, and she let the comment hang out there so the listener could

consider all the possible meanings, but she was talking mostly about cancer research. I think she wanted us to think about the Fundie stuff, too, though.

[Ediacara]

9. It's not just creationism but global warming, stem cells, peak oil, clean coal, etc etc etc

[Az]

29. Creationism is politics not science

Always has been always will be.

[BreweryYardRat]

7. I just bought a book with most of the sordid details on that.

Unfortunately, I can't read more than half a chapter at any one sitting. Otherwise my blood pressure skyrockets.

[Cameron27]

14. Clinton did very well, IMO

I wonder if MSNBC will ever get back so we can hear the others.

[Bitwit1234]

26. What bush and his administration

want is a country of morons. That way they will follow lock step behind the republicans because....they don't have any money....and they are dumb as crap.

[Javaman]

28. Why does science hate amerika? nt

[DFW]

43. Sam Brownback says

(loosely interpreted: this is from the Sam Brownback song from an
upcoming Campaign 2008 CD by The Freedom Toast, reprinted by permission,
and sung to the tune of "The Locomotion")

Schools in the United States have got it wrong, now
(Come one baby, don’t teach evolution)
I can still correct it if they sing my song, now
(Come on, baby, don’t teach evolution)
The Bible says the world was made in just six days
And science isn’t real, it’s just a passing phase
So come on, come on, don’t teach evolution to me!
You gotta bite your tongue, now. Come on baby.
Turn back your clocks. Fossils are just some odd-shaped rocks!

Look at Angelina and check out her shape, now
(Come one baby, don’t teach evolution)
You can’t tell me that she’s descended from some ape, now
(Come one baby, don’t teach evolution)
It might be so in Boston or in Montpelier <“MONT-PEE-LEER”>
But Kansans know it never could have happened here!
So come on, come on, don’t teach evolution to me!

[Ilsa]

48. LOL! That is so funny!

I bet Angelina's shape has something to do with the sciences of medicine and chemistry and silicon!

[Joe Fields]

49. Yeah, the science of misinformation, which we in the midwest

commonly refer to as lying...