Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.

[madfloridian]

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.

Here is a summary of what it was all about after all.

They broke the rules and yelled "Dean and the DNC took our votes away". If they had stayed on or after February 5, every delegate would have counted. They instead took the course of jumping in with both feet and saying the DNC took their votes away.

Amazing.

Even a few major bloggers like Jerome and Markos fell for it.

Whatever the eventual outcome about Florida's delegates, the seeds of bitterness have been sown because the truth was not told from the beginning. It will have an effect that goes well beyond just this event.

Couple of good explanations here.

Congressional Delegation threatens Dean and the DNC

"But here's why the DNC's penalty actually has some teeth. If Florida had no delegates to compete for, presidential campaigns have two choices about competing in a penalized Florida. They can spend money to explain why they aren’t spending money to just win a beauty contest. . Or they can spend money to try and actually win what is just a beauty contest.. The former option is much cheaper than the latter option."

....."The media could well decide to cover Florida as a "real" primary, but here's a further complication. Two presidential campaigns -- Sen. Barack Obama's and Sen. John Edwards -- are close to concluding that they shouldn’t compete in Florida if Florida's delegate selection process doesn't matter. Publicly, these campaigns say they hope Florida resolves its dispute with the DNC. Privately, they admit that if Florida has few or no delegates, they are unlikely to compete. That means that Hillary Clinton will face enormous expectations to win the state solidly. Unless she decides to scale down her activities in the state, too.

So, if the state party is only concerned about being seated at the convention, then the RBC's penalty doesn't matter. But if the state wants to play a role in determining the nominee, then the RBC’s penalty matters a lot. The two interests are in conflict."

And a threat by Bill Nelson to lead his "troops"...make that "delegates" to Denver, no matter what. Wish he were as excited about getting out of Iraq or about protecting sick people from losing their homes due to bankruptcy.

Nelson will lead the delegates to Denver.

"The state party would have 30 days to change its plan before the sanctions would go into effect, but instead Florida's Democratic lawmakers say they will fight back. Sen. Bill Nelson told reporters in a conference call Friday that he'll lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in.

"We are quite concerned that Florida Democrats are going to lose their right to vote," Nelson said. "And of all states, we have the sensitivity of this because of what we have gone through."

.."The state's congressional delegation also sent a letter to DNC Chairman Howard Dean threatening a voting rights investigation in response to sanctions. However, national Democratic officials insist there is no legal basis to force the party to seat delegates in violation of its rules, and Nelson could not say what law the DNC would be violating or where the case could be pursued."

Well, the propaganda really worked for Florida. They went along with the Republicans from the beginning and said they did not.

It's discouraging. He who gets the message out the loudest is the winner at least temporarily. Doesn't matter if the message is wrong if it is the loudest.

Drama is not yet over in Florida

From the St. Pete Times. Adam C. Smith.

"How can the mean ol' Democratic National Committee punish beleaguered Florida Democrats for the Republican-controlled legislature and governor deciding to move the presidential primary so early in violation of committee rules?

Puh-lease.

Party chairman Howard Dean might swallow that if a Democratic state senator, Jeremy Ring, hadn't sponsored the original bill moving the primary to Jan. 29. Besides, Dean knows he lobbied early on to get Democrats to back off the bill and folks like House Democratic leader Dan Gelber blew him off publicly."

Florida won the war on truth apparently, at least in the media.

From another article by Smith in the post above.

"Might the Democratic National Committee foist on America's biggest battleground state some kind of unwanted delegate selection plan for the presidential nominating process? The party rules allow that scenario, which sounds possible from Howard Dean's comments the other day to a South Carolina TV reporter.

Remember that the DNC carved out Jan. 29 for South Carolina to hold the first southern Democratic primary, only to have Florida leaders schedule the Sunshine state for the same day. Fl Democrats are trying to keep a straight face as they blame it all on Florida Republicans."

Florida won the propaganda war temporarily. But they lost the war on truth and honesty in politics. As they move into their seats at the convention next year, as Bill Nelson said they will, it will not be a victory.

If a political play is not based on honesty, it will not be a winner in the end.

[William769]

1. Bottom line, Florida voters win. NT

[madfloridian]

2. Truth lost.

.

[BridgeTheGap]

3. Primaries for the 2012 Presidential election will be held

in 2009

[madfloridian]

4. Becoming a possibility.

What's sad is that my state is not concerned about overall change in the primary system...which of course is badly needed. Just being first should not be the goal.

I just read something else on this.

Thoughts on the Democratic Primary Mess

"Understandably, Florida’s Democrats – most prominently, Senator Bill Nelson – are crying foul, but they aren’t engendering much sympathy from other state Democratic parties. After all, Florida was among the state parties that ratified the D.N.C.’s 2008 primary calendar last year.

The D.N.C.’s penalty won’t take effect for a month, and presumably some compromise will be reached in that time. One possibility – which Florida is now resisting – would be for the state to hold some sort of “beauty contest” on January 29 – a non-binding primary or caucus where the results do not affect the delegate selection process for the actual convention. (The delegates could then be chosen at a state convention or through caucuses sometime after February 5.)

Given that the actual delegate selection process doesn’t much matter these days – there hasn’t been a second ballot at a national convention since 1956, and there almost certainly won’t be in ’08 – the non-binding/binding distinction seems pointless. The real value of a primary for a candidate is the momentum generated from being declared the winner by the media.

But Florida has good reason to hold out for a binding primary. Look at it this way: Hillary Clinton’s campaign plainly wants an early Florida primary, given her strengths in the state (and her effort last month to paint Barack Obama as soft on Castro). But if it’s non-binding, that might give Obama – and John Edwards too, for that matter – a rationale for declining to compete. A Hillary win under that scenario – no delegates and no active opponents – probably wouldn’t mean much to the media. So Florida is taking a hard line and demanding a full-scale primary. Then again, if the current 30-day cooling off period ends with Florida refusing to bend, then the D.N.C. would presumably stand by its decision to strip the state of delegates – effectively making the January 29 primary non-binding."

[madfloridian]

5. Corrine Brown today says they will sue...blames Dean and DNC for all of it.

I hate to quote NewsMax, but today I will as I don't see this anywhere else.

Been on the phone again...the word is out to hush and not make waves against the party here.

Fine, I won't. Just be honest.

Jacksonville Rep. Corrine Brown spoke out on the issue Monday afternoon telling an audience that 27,000 votes from her district were thrown out during the 2000 election and that it's vital to make sure something like that never happens again.

"I am not going to once again let my people get left out. What happened in 2000 is not going to happen again," Brown said.

She said the DNC and the party chairman Howard Dean are to blame for the current problem. The state's congressional delegation sent a letter to Dean threatening a voting rights investigation in response to sanctions. However, national Democratic officials insist there is no legal basis to force the party to seat delegates in violation of its rules.

"We are going to select delegates, and we are going to Denver … Florida is going to be player in the presidential elections; we are going to do it legally or demonstrate and do whatever it takes. We are going to be there," Brown said.

She is leading the charge with state officials. They plan to sue the DNC to make sure delegates are allowed. Brown said Florida Democrats had no say in moving the primary.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/13986459/detail.html

I feel sick.

[madfloridian]

6. Kick

Shameless kick

[McCamy Taylor]

7. Fl. voting is corrupt. Early primary there lets the RNC pick the Dem nominee.

Look at how Florida has been manipulated in recent elections. Even Democratic counties like Palm Beach County have had their votes manipulated by the Republicans. I have no doubt at all that the Democratic pick in Florida will be whomever Karl Rove and the RNC wants the Democratic nominee to be. If Florida was an early primary, this would give Karl Rove's anointed Democrat a push.

States with a track record for fair, honest voting should be the early states. Not some corrupt state like Florida.

[ddeclue]

8. Not so... what facts do you have to back this up?

I live in Florida and as I have said elsewhere, if Howard Dean doesn't want my vote, he can't have my money either.

The national party just thinks of Florida as their ATM machine anyways so I say - "bank's closed" until we get our delegates back.

If you want to play hardball, two can play at that game.

We are being punished for the actions of an overwhelmingly Republican legislature and Republican governor. It is a group punishment being enforced on people who have no ability to change the decision that was made and the only response we have available to us is to fight back against the DNC, not the State legislature because we don't have the votes there.

I intend to sit on my wallet this election as far as the DNC, DCCC, and DSCC are concerned and they can starve to death until we get our delegates back in Florida. I WILL give to Corrine Brown and Bill Nelson and I WILL give to candidates I like directly or to the FDP but the national party needs to understand "no taxation without representation".

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[madfloridian]

9. You need to present some facts.

You are just ranting.

If you don't post seriously, people will not pay attention.

[ddeclue]

10. I DID... the Republicans control both Houses of the Legislature and the Governor's office

Democrats DON'T make the laws in this state. Yet we are being punished for Republican passed laws.

That's all the "facts" you need to know to know this is a raw deal for Florida Democrats.

Doug D.

[madfloridian]

11. That is why I call it propaganda.

They did not have to vote for it. Wexler and Jeremy Ring were at the signing with Crist.

Ring introduced it.

[RB TexLa]

12. And some people just think Dean's precious "White Primary" needs to go

[madfloridian]

13. How very weird. They added two state with diversity.

And no one seems to know that at all.

I think most of the people having tantrums over this don't even know what is going on.

[RB TexLa]

15. Added? I guess everyone should be thankful that Idaho and Utah aren't 3ed and 4th?

Oh, they get added after the "white primary," what a joke. I guess everyone with less than 98% rural white population should just "stop with that uppityness."

[madfloridian]

19. Are you being insulting to white people?

Sounds that way.

[RB TexLa]

22. So you feel wanting a state more representative of the Democratic party to go first is insulting

to white people. Sorry you find inclusion insulting.

[madfloridian]

24. Good grief. That is just so silly.

I have tried to post intelligent things, but it does not seem to matter here anymore.

Let the lawsuit commence...get all of it out in the courts.

Get back to me later.

[cali]

27. Really?

S. Carolina and Nevada are lacking in diversity? Who knew?

[RB TexLa]

28. Were either of them allowed to go first if they wanted to do so?

I'll have to check the calender.

[Romulox]

14. I support Florida in this

I'm sick of being force fed "centrist" Democrats via a stilted and undemocratic primary system.

edit: Forgot to add, Michigan is on track for Jan. 15. Or does Howard Dean's "50 state strategy" (minus one) call for disenfranchising Michigan voters too?

[madfloridian]

18. Ha Ha..Florida Democrats are as "centrist" as they come.

Michigan has not voted in the House yet, last I heard.

They would be sanctioned as well.

You think Florida Democrats are for the average person?

You better do some homework.

[Romulox]

21. No, *you* need to do some homework

Democracy does not mean that you get to chose for me, simply because you've unilaterally decided your choices are wiser than mine.

That's called authoritarianism.

[madfloridian]

25. Thanks and welcome to DU....where truth doesn't matter anymore.

.

[Malikshah]

26. Someone needs to do some homework on FL

We've been force fed Dem Hawks, sacrificial lambs, and the like on a regular basis.

McBride and Davis are two of the more egregious examples.

The FL Dem "leadership" make the average "centrist" look like Jerry Brown

[Romulox]

29. My statement wasn't directed at Florida

Florida didn't chose John Kerry or Bill Clinton. Iowa and New Hampshire did. They were handed to us in Michigan on a take it or leave it basis.

edit: To be 100% clear, my interest is in anything that challenges the status quo, not in defending the Fl Democratic party.

[Malikshah]

37. Then do your homework before you support Florida-- as in your

post title.

The FL Dem Leadership is the status quo-- they are so in bed a la Stockholm syndrome with the Republicans down here it is embarrassing.

The Dem Leadership down here are a crowd of self aggrandizing lying liars who's sooner sell off their mother than actually listen to what the voters want.

[Romulox]

42. Your post doesn't make sense

"The FL Dem Leadership is the status quo"

As opposed to the DNC? That's silly.

The status quo is that the DNC dictates to the states and the nominee is selected by party insiders in a rigged primary system.

Florida and Michigan are challenging this. That's what I support.

[yewberry]

16. I feel badly for FL voters

but they really can't blame the DNC for this. Their state party was absolutely behind the leapfrog, and that was a really bad move.

[madfloridian]

17. Florida is harming our party by not telling the truth. Few seem concerned.

It just does not seem to matter. It is more important it seems to talk big and tough against the ones who did their job.

It does no good to present facts and evidence.

It is why I used the word "propaganda" in the subject line.

It worked.

Now all the Florida people are stomping their little Florida feet and shouting Dean stole my vote!

It would be funny if it were not so sad.

It is like a madness taking over this state, the state party, and this forum.

[Colonel Bat Guano]

20. Hey, do I get to vote in the primary?

I live in Florida. My wife has been working around the clock for one of the Dem candidates, who I also support. Now she thinks she'll have to support her candidate by making out of state phone calls....since we don't get a say.

In previous years, we really didn't have a say either (the late date for Florida meant the primary was decided way before we voted)...which of course has prompted the race to an earlier primary... but this REALLY means no say.

I've donated a lot to Dem candidates, in state and out of state (particularly to House candidates in tough districts).

If I can't vote this year in the primary, yep, I'm sitting it out as far as donations go. I will vote for the eventual Dem candidate in the main election just to make sure the Repub margin of victory isn't too huge (and they will have a victory in Florida, since the Repubs will be smart enough to figure out the advantage of winning our electoral votes....they'll do a slap on the wrist for the state R leaders and Thompson, Romney, and Rudy will be in every district from now till 11/08 spewing their shit).

Anybody who thinks this is a good idea strategically is out of their fucking minds.

Tell me how any Dem wins without Florida. Especially with the wild card of California possibly splitting their electoral votes.

I'll bookmark your answers so I can call you out when Rudy or Mitt takes the oath in 2009.

[madfloridian]

23. Get Florida Democrats to tell the truth. DU folks used to demand truth.

Now they don't anymore.

I think that Florida should go ahead and sue the DNC. It might be a healthy thing to get it all out in court.

I have worked here, so has my husband. We know pretty much all the undercurrents.

This is a power play for Florida to be first. Life is a funny thing. Not everyone can be first.

Let the lawsuit commence.

[angrycarpenter]

30. I am a floridian

And I can think of A group of people who are just overjoyed to see all this division among democrats, and they hate both sides. The only way this whole thing makes sense is that both sides are being played against each other. I don't know A whole lot about this but issuing ultimatums is A republican habit that we need never adopt. Isn't rational negotiation supposed to be our way? Fanning the flames of this dispute with threats can only serve the purposes of the people we are trying replace.

[madfloridian]

31. I think since Florida threatened to sue Dean and the DNC...they should do it.

I think it would get all of the truth out in the open. It would probably clear the air.

No one here is being honest. I was told that I was disloyal to be questioning the state party when I called a local Democrat.

I think they should do the lawsuit. Let the wonderful attorney general's office get involved at a federal level. Let the Republican Secretary of State get involved at Florida level.

Let it all out in the open. Let them vent their wrath against Dean and the DNC once and for all in the open....NOT let it fester as the leaders make comments about Dean supporters and DFA under their breath. In fact one even did it an email.

On with the lawsuit.

[angrycarpenter]

33. of course you are right

I just hate to see things get so screwed up this early on. After A candidate is nominated who will bring these people back together to get that person elected president?

[madfloridian]

34. I am not sure there will be any coming back together.

Not after this.

Their attack was needless. The DNC set the rules, and Florida broke them. That simple.

They openly approved the whole deal. It is at their website.

I am not sure it will be fixed.

[madfloridian]

32. Here is a post from the Florida forum. Most of us went easy on Karen

I think a couple of folks posted John Russell's interview with her. Most of us said little, I guess respecting her right to be a lobbyist while receiving 100,000 yearly as chairman...and 3500 a month from Cardenas. Now...whatever.

It is about our state chairman lobbying with the firm of Al Cardenas, a big time Republican lobbyist and former GOP chairman. It is mostly representing the south Florida area...Karen should be representing all of us.

From Dr. Phool in the Florida forum
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=145x9300

[Colonel Bat Guano]

35. Who wants Florida's electoral votes? Anyone?

As I understand it, the R's opening position on this is that the R's lose half their delegates. Not all, just half.

History suggests that the R's understand strategy in swing states and they will soften their position.

Right now, the entire 2008 election is driving off the cliff for Democrats, based on this.

You guys got a Florida free strategy? Really? Lay it out. I want to hear how you hit 270 without Florida....and dealing with the possible California split.

There has to be a resolution of this, starting from the DNC, or the game is over for 2008.

Throwing it back to the FL Leg won't work, because they are R contolled and they're onto the game. If the Dems issue more sanctions than the Repubs (the situation so far), the Repubs win.

Look at the national map and think. The other side is doing the same, and as long as this goes on, they win.

[madfloridian]

36. Truth should work.

If it doesn't we are all screwed.

Denial is sometimes dangerous.

[madfloridian]

38. Look what I found from March. I feel vindicated.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3482597

More later.

[madfloridian]

39. More..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3482597&mesg_id=3482611

[madfloridian]

40. Kick for proof and vindication as to what I have been saying.

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

They were sticking it to the national parties.

Time magazine today is calling this Dean's War on Florida.

How very sad our Florida Dems did this.

[Beelzebud]

41. Florida - Fucking Up America Since 2000

[Johnboi70]

43. So Much Discord...

It's so sad to see. Florida Dems and the DNC really need to work this out "within the family" or risk handing the state over to the Republicans in '08. When I first heard about all of this, my first reaction was to assume that the Republicans were up to their usual dirty tricks. If that's the case, then I hope we don't let them succeed. :-D

[madfloridian]

44. Florida was complicit. They worked with the Republicans on it.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

[Johnboi70]

45. Ugh....

Then how do we fix this??