Someone help me understand the crime in Larry Craig's "lewd conduct"

[Bucky]

Police reports always leave me a little bamboozled. Here, according to the indespensible TPM, is the account from arresting officer Dave Karsina:

Craig then entered the stall next to Karsnia’s and placed his roller bag against the front of the stall door.

“My experience has shown that individuals engaging in lewd conduct use their bags to block the view from the front of their stall,” Karsnia stated in his report. “From my seated position, I could observe the shoes and ankles of Craig seated to the left of me.”

Craig was wearing dress pants with black dress shoes.

“At 1216 hours, Craig tapped his right foot. I recognized this as a signal used by persons wishing to engage in lewd conduct. Craig tapped his toes several times and moves his foot closer to my foot. I moved my foot up and down slowly. While this was occurring, the male in the stall to my right was still present. I could hear several unknown persons in the restroom that appeared to use the restroom for its intended use. The presence of others did not seem to deter Craig as he moved his right foot so that it touched the side of my left foot which was within my stall area,” the report states.

Craig then proceeded to swipe his hand under the stall divider several times, and Karsnia noted in his report that “I could ... see Craig had a gold ring on his ring finger as his hand was on my side of the stall divider.”

Karsnia then held his police identification down by the floor so that Craig could see it.

“With my left hand near the floor, I pointed towards the exit. Craig responded, ‘No!’ I again pointed towards the exit. Craig exited the stall with his roller bags without flushing the toilet. ... Craig said he would not go. I told Craig that he was under arrest, he had to go, and that I didn’t want to make a scene. Craig then left the restroom.”

In a recorded interview after his arrest, Craig “either disagreed with me or ‘didn’t recall’ the events as they happened,” the report states.

Craig stated “that he has a wide stance when going to the bathroom and that his foot may have touched mine,” the report states. Craig also told the arresting officer that he reached down with his right hand to pick up a piece of paper that was on the floor.

“It should be noted that there was not a piece of paper on the bathroom floor, nor did Craig pick up a piece of paper,” the arresting officer said in the report.

So the only evidence of lewd intent is a series of abstract hand and foot motions? I'm going to break down and confess right here in DU to being entirely ignorant about the nature and rituals involved in men swapping anonymous blowjobs in bathrooms. In general I support the notion of lewd conduct laws. People should be free to have any kind of sex they want, assuming animals and children aren't involved, but society has a right to require them to keep it out of public facilities.

However, if you are going to arrest someone for lewd conduct, shouldn't there be stronger evidence than tapping your shoe in a public restroom and waving your hand underneath the stall next to you? What if Larry Craig was just really constipated and then needed to borrow a sheet of toilet paper? I can imagine both those things being real common among Republicans.

I mean sure, if he pleads guilty, he's probably guilty. I have no problem laughing at yet another Republican hypocrite. But don't we live in an age when innocent people can get railroaded into confessions just to make aggressive prosecutors go away? Before you convict a guy of lewd conduct, shouldn't there be tighter evidence, like the accused saying "Pardon me, old chap, I know we're strangers, but would you be so good as to fellate my love meat?"

If waving hands and tapping feet is all the evidence we need to ruin a man's life, I have to admit I'm feeling a little more creeped out than I normally do when Republicans turn out to be perverts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Sir, Respectfully You Are A Bit Naive

It's all part of the mating ritual that occurs in public restrooms..

[DURHAM D]

8. I think the question also might be -

what is really wrong with all that mating in the public restrooms?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Because It Infringes On The Rights Of People That Don't Want To Be Involved...

eom

[DURHAM D]

36. If they make their plans in the bathroom and then move

to a private area like a van or a hotel room or the VIP room is it the same offense in your mind?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. No

But that's not what happens...It's a three person operation...Two people mating and a lookout, right in the restroom...

[DURHAM D]

62. A lookout - are you sure? eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Umhum

I have seen it several times on college campuses-at the restroom in the library at FSU... Across from the cafeteria at UCF...

Once I was in the Maison Blanche restroom in Altamonte Springs and one guy came walking from near a stall, and two guys came out of a stall with one man wiping his mouth...

Gawd, yeah, I have seen the tearoom trade up close...

[DURHAM D]

100. I think you are over-stating what you think always happens.

They do meet up and move elsewhere that is more private. They may be gay but they are not stupid - they assess the danger of getting caught in any situation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. I Really Could Care Less Who's Doing It...

What two consenting adults do in private is none of my business...

Gays should be allowed to show the same range of emotions as strg8s... Holding hands in public...Kissing etcetera... But as long as heterosexuals can't have sex in public space neither should gays...

[DURHAM D]

113. There is no evidence, btw, that Senator Craig was having sex. eom

[timtom]

163. I don't suppose

his confession of guilt means anything...

[WinkyDink]

117. Unless, of course, they are Republicans afeared of big Black men.

[NashVegas]

70. There Is No Right to Not Be Made Uncomfortable.

Or not have to deal with uncomfortable situations.

Most people will experience, at least once in their life, an unwanted advance. Most will make an effort to handle the matter with some grace. It's all part of that thing we call "growing up."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. People Shouldn't Be Having Sex In Public Restrooms

I wouldn't care if it was two men, a man and a woman, or Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie...

It shows a blatant disregard for the rights of other people...

The restroom is for defecating and urinating not for sex...

[NashVegas]

94. I Agree, But That's Irrelevant

There's no way Craig's actions could have been shown, let alone proven, to be illegal in court.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. Then he should have taken it to court.

Unless he really did break the law, which he confesses to doing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

103. He Pleaded Guilty...

I have been hit on in public restrooms... Once when I was a pretty thirteen year old boy with long hair an old bald guy said "would you like to feel the juices" as I was urinating...

I have seen the tearoom trade up close...

I have no problem with any kind of coupling between consenting adults but your or my right to couple ends at the other's eyes...

[NashVegas]

109. That Was His Choice

It probably seemed preferable, at the time, to cop a minor and get past it, rather than drag it to trial.

Once when I was a pretty thirteen year old boy with long hair an old bald guy said "would you like to feel the juices" as I was urinating...

And that was your first opportunity to learn how to tell an unwelcome admirer to buzz off. Life's experiences like that, especially when you're lucky to escape otherwise unscathed, just can't be bought.

Still, that's nowhere near as open to interpretation as Craig's foolishness.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. I Was Cool About It And Scared...

What if I was a homophobe and beat him up...

This was the early eighties in rural Florida... I might have been given an award...

[NashVegas]

134. Good for You

No, seriously.

I and some friends were treated, age 9, to a fun spectacle, thanks to a masturbator.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

137. I have heard second person stories but never witnessed it...

My position ...

Any behavior available to a straight American should be made available to a gay American...

A gay man or woman should be allowed to show physical affection for his partner as a straight man or woman but that doesn't include sex in public spaces...

[WinkyDink]

124. NO RICH WHITE MAN who is innocent cops a plea to avoid a trial! That's TV-land!

[NashVegas]

138. Innocent Has Nothing to Do With It

It's a matter of what a jury can be convinced of, based on evidence and testimony.

"Disorderly conduct" can be anything from swearing at someone to .. whatever a cop wants it to be.

Is it illegal to tap your foot in a rest room stall?

Is it illegal to put your carry-on against the stall door?

Is it illegal to tap the foot of the person in the next stall?

Is it illegal to make your hand visible to the person in the next stall?

Is it illegal to do all of that in conjunction?

Can it be proven, beyond doubt, that all of the above adds up to lewd behavior?


Obviously, Craig thought he had more to lose by going to trial - like his career - than copping to 'disorderly.'

[WinkyDink]

120. Then I guess he got himself a crummy lawyer, wot? Riiiiight.

[Bucky]

16. What's 'wrong' is that it shouldn't go on in public restrooms.

I'm just not seeing the evidence as concrete. I readily admit to my naivete. When these yucky events occur, I revel in it.

[spanone]

17. he admitted guilt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. "You Must Have Led A Sheltered Life Which Isn't A Bad Thing"

It's part of the mating ritual... The authorities discourage it because someone just might be innocently tapping their feet and get propositioned...

[DURHAM D]

40. What exactly shouldn't go on in the public restrooms -

Meeting like minded fellows
or
Actually having sex?

[Bucky]

64. Exactly my point!

The foot tapping might be recognized as a pick up technique. But unless he states he intends to be lewd in public it bothers me that he's convicted of being lewd in public. If he just said, to the cop, "Hey handsome, you wanna come over to my hotel?" I don't think he should be arrested.

On the other hand, I do think a toilet is a place where I should be able to expect a certain level of privacy. I don't want to be even propositioned for sex with Republican senators in toilet stalls--not even with Kay Bailey Hutchinson! I think a community has a right to not have public restrooms converted into pick up lounges.

But the fact is, there was no explicit propositioning here, regardless of where he intended to carry out his plans.

On the third hand, I've used plenty of toilets around gay people in my 43 years and I've never been accosted. Part of me sees this as police targeting the gay community. I wish that part of this story bothered more DUers.

[DURHAM D]

90. Actually you are correct - this is the police targeting homosexuals.

It has gone on forever. The police officer was carefully playing the part of a potential hookup. The officer knew exactly how to entrap the person in the stall next door.

These kinds of arrests have plagued the gay male community forever.

[mondo joe]

118. It's true there is entrapment - but it's also true that public restrooms get used

for sex and pick ups.

And it irks me on both counts.

[LittleClarkie]

73. There is the problem when the asker makes a mistake in thinking the askee

is interested.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to deal somebody trying to rub their shoe up against mine if I wasn't interesting in a little restroom bow chicka bow bow.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. Having Sex

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Having Sex

eom

[DURHAM D]

93. So, we have no evidence that Senator Craig was actually having sex.

In fact, I feel pretty certain that he was not. This is entrapment and over the top from a legal standpoint but it happens every day.

Gay and bisexual men are very vulnerable to this kind of arrest. They usually are forced to accept the charge and pay up. The police know that they will not fight these charges because they don't want the public humiliation. Therefore, they don't even need to have a good case.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

123. Lewd And Lascivious Behavior Is Lewd And Lascivious Behavior

I have seen straight couples get arrested for car sex...

[DURHAM D]

149. Assuming you are male -

If you are attracted to a woman and you tell her you are attracted to her - is it the same thing as having sex with her?

This really can't be that hard.

[MADem]

143. The guy was outed a year ago, but no one noticed.

At this blog: http://www.blogactive.com/

[mondo joe]

105. I don't see why one needs the bathroom stall to meet like minded fellows.

I sincerely don't.

[NashVegas]

111. Nor Do I

How difficult would/should it be for a US senator to find a squeeze.

Okay, if they're going to remain in the closet, a discreet squeeze?

Gets harder everyday.

[northernsoul]

32. a good many things should not be carried on in public spaces

If Senator Craig wishes to have anonymous sex with various strangers, he should get a hotel room.

[bleedingheart]

38. Years ago...when I was in college

there was a mens room in one of our college buildings that was a famous "mating" place.

Now I am a female...and never went into this rest room...however one of my friends told me this story about how he found out what went on in that rest room..

He was on his way from a class when he had to use the rest room...he was a freshman on campus and he needed to go to the bathroom rather badly...so he ran into the rest room...and to his dismay he discovered the doors were all removed from the stalls...and he need to use a stall versus a urinal... (the doors were removed to keep people from having sex)

he would have left and found another bathroom...but he "needed to go badly"...so he sat down...and due to his absolute shame at the conditions ( no door)...he held up the campus newspaper to hide himself...

To his absolute shock...a man walked up to him and tapped on his paper...(according to my friend ..men don't talk to men in restrooms ..so he was a bit freaked..)...and the guy offered to give him a blow job...

My friend said..."no thank you"..and the guy went away...however...he said..."who would want to do that to a guy taking a crap?"...

so ever time I hear about these cases...I think about what my old college buddy told me...

[WinkyDink]

114. "Public" is the operative term, with an "l".

[kirby]

159. Mating != 2 men/women

Mating, by definition is the pairing of opposite sex.

[NashVegas]

63. But Does That Matter?

Admittedly, I don't hang out in public restrooms, trying to signal - or be signaled - for sex.

And if the above count is the sum of it, nothing illegal happened. The cop jumped the gun. Nudging someone's foot is not illegal. Weird, but not illegal.

I have no issue with embarrassing the crap out of these Republican hypocrites, I quite enjoy it, but when you arrest someone who did nothing illegal, there's a problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Have you got any evidence that Craig was coerced to plead guilty?

Or just grasping at straws?

[Bucky]

18. I'm not grasping at straws, I'm asking questions

I keep forgetting that a few noisy DUers think civil rights don't apply to Republicans.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. You're certainly grasping at straws.

But I've know idea why you're doing it.

[AlecBGreen]

2. lol

man, if you need TP you just say "hey bud, hand me some TP." you dont make random foot motions and reach into another guys stall...

[AlCzervik]

10. "Do you have a square to spare?"

[mondo joe]

107. "A ply? Just one ply????"

[villager]

3. But see, it's rightwingers who *make* all these laws

So Craig is -- excuse the completely unpleasant metaphor -- hoisted on his own petard...

If any of them had a healthy view/attitude of sex, no one would have to skulk around and create toe-tappin' bathroom codes in the first place...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Like I Said In Another Thread

I can't think of a less erotic place...

[villager]

15. well, yeah -- but then, for these rightwingers like Craig, it's not about "eros"

They're in thrall in Thanatos, all the way around...

[Bucky]

23. Yes, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

It's just that the vagueness of it all bothers me. I'd probably be more pissed if a closeted Democratic politician got busted in these circumstances. But that doesn't mean I'm proud of holding this double standard.

[The Stranger]

4. I guess that is why he pled guilty.

:wtf:

[skiddlybop]

5. Girl. I thought you knew.

Don't you know?

There is a Republican Five Second Rule.

You can put anything in your mouth for five seconds and deny it if the man shows a badge after.

I thought you knew.

Girl.

[AndyA]

6. I think the foot tapping is a signal among guys in rest rooms that they want to have sex.

It's one of those things like wearing a certain color hanky in the right or left rear pocket - it tells others what you "like" sexually.

Of course, it could also be someone listening to a song they really like on their iPod...

[onenote]

14. You learn something every day - Glad I don't have RLS

Restless Leg Syndrome

[Sparkly]

19. lol

:rofl:

[helderheid]

35. !

:spray:

[TwilightGardener]

48. Maybe Craig's problem was just a bad case of "Happy Feet"?

[Bucky]

66. At this point, I think he suffers more from "Unhappy Career Prospects" syndrome

[TahitiNut]

97. Craig puts the Peepee in GOP.

:rofl:

[VLC]

20. So then basically he's guilty of flirting

or propositioning. Is that really a crime?

[Bucky]

25. I don't want people arrested for wearing colored bandanas, either.

There's a creepy Kafka quality to all of this. I enjoy a good Republican self-outing scandal any day of the week, but the Big Brother aspects are just leaving me cold.

[AndyA]

31. I wonder if Craig was just today's sacrificial goat?

Somebody has to deflect attention from the *REAL* story.

I wouldn't put much past these people, and I'll bet there's more to Gonzo's resignation than we know.

[napi21]

9. Except he PLEAD GUILTY!!!!!! n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. He pleaded GUILTY, paid $500, spent 10 days in jail and is on one year probabtion and you want to

believe he's INNOCENT?

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. He didn't spend any time in jail

His 10 day sentence was stayed.

[bbgrunt]

13. it must be those specially trained screeners who can

tell if you INTEND to commit a crime by your facial expression.....no wait, no facial expression apparent here....maybe they just need to see your feet and hand. Is it 1984 yet?

[redqueen]

24. What a puzzling thread.

A guy pleads guilty and DUers crawl out of the woodwork to "tsk tsk" anyone who thinks he's guilty of something?

:wtf:

[Bucky]

34. I'm counting your misleading statements

(1) no one is crawling out of the woodwork;
(2) the view I express is strikingly in the minority view;
(3) I'm not tsk-tsking anyone or anything;
(4) I expressly acknowledge he pleaded guilty--I'm only expressing concern about the vagueness of the evidence.

I take this moment to supportively remind you this is a discussion board, not a bandwagon groupthink board.

[redqueen]

43. nevermind

so not fucking worth it...

[Bucky]

74. Wait, you can't leave the conversation until I do my smug bastard victory dance at you

I happen to believe discussions about how far we want police watching our sex lives are always with it.

But I respect your right to not stay with the conversation.

[redqueen]

86. They're not watching his sex life.

They're doing what the community expects them to do, which is keep sexual shit like that out of public restrooms.

FWIW I wasn't referring to YOU in that post, but some of the responses. Your response just pissed me off. So fuck it. So go ahead and have your important and worthwhile discussion with the people you don't manage to piss off to the point of deciding it's not worth the trouble.

[hlthe2b]

46. I didn't know anything re: the "ritual" either, Bucky...

I think it fair to ask how all this equates to a crime. And, while I could care less what consenting adults choose to do, I am not comfortable with such solicitous acts in a public restroom--frequented by a wide variety of "non-interested, nonparticipant-type" people, including children. Whether or not it is a crime, I guess is the question.

[WinkyDink]

125. "Evidence" isn't evidence until presented in court, no matter who is saying what to reporters.

[TheDoorbellRang]

151. You've raised some interesting points here

Arefoot tapping, foot nudging, and hand waving under the stall wall (when one could always say you just needed some TP) on the lawbooks as lewd behavior?

Another question: did this police officer just happen to be in the next stall at that time, or had he been in there all day waiting for guys to hit on him so he could arrest them for lewd conduct?

[robinlynne]

45. NO, that's not true. I too find it odd for someone to be arrested for "foot-tapping".

[redqueen]

52. AFTER reading the articles,

you still found it odd?

I find it odd that people can read about such complex foot-tapping rituals and still find it odd that they are actually rituals and not random foot-tapping.

[TahitiNut]

102. In the Age of iPods ...

... there's a LOT of sex going on. :rofl: I have another reason to be happy I don't do iPods.

[redqueen]

128. is that right?

i'm happy i don't do sex!

[JohnnyLib2]

26. All things considered,

guess I'll try to wait it out in airports from now on.

On the serious side, that guilty plea may take him out of the Senate.

:blush:

[DURHAM D]

44. You are in no danger of being propositioned if you are not interested.

However, if you are really, really good looking someone might ignore the passive indicators and start a conversation with you about say baseball or the weather. If it feels awkward say have a nice day and walk out. Thats it. No one will attack you. No one will stalk you.

[Bucky]

55. stalk

I'm getting villified in this thread for being naive about anonymous gay sex protocols. The fact is that I live in a predominantly gay neighborhood in Houston and have lots of gay friends. I think it says a lot about respect for other peoples' boundaries in the gay community that I can live so close to gays and hang out with them socially and still not know squat about how this one narrow segment gets its groove on.

It's probably also worth noting that my friends tend not to be closeted gays. I suspect the airport toilet stall approach is the refuge of men who live double lives--an inherently unhealthy bunch if only because their numbers are riddled with Republicans.

[DURHAM D]

61. Thanks for the spelling correction.

Actually some of your friends might be more into this kind of hookup then you might think. Granted a lot of the men are married but a lot are openly gay men. I think the best term for this kind of encounter is casual sex. It can happen in the parks, golf courses, gay bars, on trains, truck stops, the public library, etc.

No names shared. No phone numbers exchanged.

[JohnnyLib2]

99. Thanks. I should have used the sarcasm tag.

The surveillance/lack of clear transgression aspects of this story got my attention more than the rest of it.

I wonder if some countries--Europe?--have much more tolerance socially and legally.

[northernsoul]

27. There is no Minnesota state statute regarding "lewd conduct"

at least, none found my cursory search of the statute-book, however I do believe that the Metropolitan Airport Commission has the legal authority under its charter to create and enforce its own misdemeanors. Maybe some MinnDUer more familiar with Minnesota criminal procedure can bring us up to speed.

[AlCzervik]

28. do you actually think a Senator got "Railroaded" into confessing? I sure as hell don't.

[Bucky]

37. No, but in our Big Brother society I don't deny it's a possibility

Nor do I presume guilt on the basis of his Republicanism. I do know for sure that if a Democratic senator got popped under these circumstances, this board would universally condemn the police, the laws, and try and blame it all on Karl Rove. In fact, there's already one poster in this thread speculating that this was a contrived conviction to distract us from Gonzales.

[AlCzervik]

41. it won't distract from Gonzales at all imo, i bet every network and cable news

outlet will be leading with the AG's resignation. My guess is that someone from roll call has been working the Craig story for awhile and finally got a copy of the police report. And i bet there is more to the incident than is being reported.

[SoCalDem]

29. Cops who are attached to the vice squad or the gang squad

are well versed in the "signals".. People don;t open the door to the mens rooom and holler "Hey..who wants to blow me for $20?)

[0007]

104. Your absolutely right on!

'The Bathroom Guy' tag will always stay with Larry

[bklyncowgirl]

133. From the look on that soldier's face the Senator may have patted him on the butt.

Craig has this big grin on his face and the poor guy with him seems to be thinking. Holy Shit! I'm getting hit on by a U.S. Senator.

OK maybe I'm reading too much into this.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. Lead a sheltered life, do you?

The guy was cruising. The detective sees this 20 times a month, maybe more. Do you seriously think he mistakes a TP request for a blowjob request? I mean, seriously. The only reason he got a disorderly rather than lewd conduct is because he had a good lawyer, and the local ADA in charge of these things probably wants to work in some other division at some point in his life.

Your post is the rough equivalent to saying that maybe, just maybe, the guy who pulled over to the group of hookers, offered one $50, and had her enter his car may possibly be just asking her for directions. It's laughable. The Republican Senator from Idaho was cruising for man-sex at noon on a Monday. In an airport. Bathroom. That's pretty clear.

The next step is finding out how they kept this under wraps for almost two months.

[Bucky]

47. Yes and no. I know anonymous pick ups go on. I'm naive about how easy it is to convict.

He was waving his hand. What if his intent was to flirt, pick someone up, and take him home for sex? The story here isn't that a Republican got busted for hypocricy--I think we all love that part of it. The story is that cops are spending their time policing bathrooms and busting people for foot tapping. I don't have to know much about anybody else's lifestyle to find that a little scary.

(But thank you for not turning your criticism into a personal attack as a couple of posters upthread did)

[Irishonly]

92. Exactly

I am super naive. I had no clue about the foot tapping and I thought restrooms were used for going to the bathroom. I received quite an education in this thread.

But... I agree completely. Why was it kept silent for two months?

[Kingshakabobo]

131. I too am having a little problem with the .......

.........semingly LOW hurdle that was crossed to get the cop to start waiving his badge. I would have thought the police would need some affirmative offer to engage in a sex act before an arrest is made. Even during prostitute/John stings, the police need an affirmative offer before an arrest is made. In your snarky example cited above, the police wouldn't make the arrest until the money was offered of the act was spelled out. Driving up to the prostitutes wouldn't land a person in the slammer.

That said, I'm not going to lose any sleep over this asshole's conviction especially since he plead guilty.

[jaysunb]

142. Best post of the thread...so far.

My question--to which I know the answer...which you just provided--is, why would a US Senator, who was probably flying first class, be in a public restroom.
I've travelled w/ congress people a couple of times and we went directly to the VIP lounge. Airline personel knew they were aboard, they all belong to frequent flier clubs, all have access to the private waiting areas.There's abosolutely no reason to use the public facilaties...unless as you posted, " he was cruising for a quickie."

BTW, anyone that's ever used the vip lounge would do their best never to get caught w/ their pants down in the public area. :evilgrin:

[Orsino]

145. Whether or not he was cruising seems unimportant.

While I don't doubt you're correct about the senator's intent, there's a reason such coded behavior was developed: to avoid breaking laws concerning lewd conduct.

"We waved his hand under the stall in a gay way, Your Honor, and his shoe touched mine several times." I don't know the law, but this would sound pretty stupid and petty in court. Reasonable doubt could be established by any competent attorney, in my opinion, and the senator might have been so afraid of having to fight such a charge that he was effectively coerced into a guilty plea. I don't think I'm being naive here; it would seem to be easy to challenge the constitutionality of a law vague enough to have caught him.

[Maddy McCall]

39. My only comment is that when you're constipated, you're less likely...

to be reaching around for t paper.

[KansDem]

42. This is neither here nor there but it looks like the Senator was well aware of restroom sex protocol

At 1216 hours, Craig tapped his right foot. I recognized this as a signal used by persons wishing to engage in lewd conduct. Craig tapped his toes several times and moves his foot closer to my foot. I moved my foot up and down slowly. While this was occurring, the male in the stall to my right was still present. I could hear several unknown persons in the restroom that appeared to use the restroom for its intended use. The presence of others did not seem to deter Craig as he moved his right foot so that it touched the side of my left foot which was within my stall area,” the report states.

Craig then proceeded to swipe his hand under the stall divider several times, and Karsnia noted in his report that “I could ... see Craig had a gold ring on his ring finger as his hand was on my side of the stall divider.”

This is all new to me, but the Senator sure appears to be well-versed in the ways of public-restroom courtship. I would hazard to guess that this wasn't the first time...

edited...

[DURHAM D]

51. I haven't been able to figure out from the report if Senator Craig

was offering to pitch or catch.

[goodhue]

155. Indeed

he clearly knew what he was doing

[Rex]

49. Well that is what happens when you flirt in a bathroom with a stranger!

Holy crap! Craig must get off on dirty sex! My my.

[DURHAM D]

53. I think he is about casual sex.

I don't know what you mean by dirty sex.

[Rex]

57. Bathroom stalls, in public, things that are taboo

just laughing out loud at this joker - he was so harsh on Bill over his blowjob, back in the day. Tsk tsk.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. That seems prety thin stuff to me, too. Can't imagine it holding up. nt

[Blue-Jay]

59. It doesn't HAVE to hold up. He pleaded guilty.

Paid a fine and is on probation. He did it and he admitted to it in court.

What needs to "hold up"?

[JerseygirlCT]

144. You're right. I'd forgotten that. What an idiot! nt

[nancyr]

81. Mr. Clean!

My main reaction, after chuckling, was one of disbelief. I would never of dreamed that the epitome of moral rightousness would even have a carnal thought, much less actually try to act on it! After all these years of seeing him sneer down his nose at the perceived sins of others...this is priceless. The real outrage here is the fact that this was kept quiet so darn long. If he had been a Democrat it would be headline news and calls for immediate resignation. I think the fact that he pled guilty and paid his fine says it all. A pity all these Republicans who enjoy public restrooms so much just can't get together and do their thing without grossing the rest of us out.

[stirlingsliver]

54. It Creeps Me Out.

A guy in a public -- PUBLIC -- restroom -- giving signals under a stall, and touching another guy's shoe??

It sure creeps me out.

[Gabi Hayes]

56. how'd you like to have a job like that cop? how could anybody STAND

to do work like that?

I know, there are plenty of pervs out there, but Christ on a crawfish, how hard up for a job do you have to be?

beg pardon if this has been addressed already, but no way I'm going to slog through this, or any other thread

except the one where I commented on Craig's 'posture,' of course

[stirlingsliver]

69. I'd Remind Myself

That I am getting pervs like Larry Craig out of public places like bathrooms in an airport.

THAT kind of satisfaction would keep me going in a job like that.

[Gabi Hayes]

87. I mentioned the perv factor in my post. Somebody has to do it, I suppose.

more power to them

just for fun, I'd like to know the conviction rate on similar 'offenses,' as well as the ages of the participants.

if there are any boys belowe the age of consent involved, that changes things

if these 'offenses' are between consenting adults....well this is pretty hard to think about, now that I think about it, and I think my beautiful mind doesn't want to consider this any longer



btw....why I hate snopes.com:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/barbara.asp

read how they defend Babs' heinous quote

[Disturbed]

78. "how they kept this under wraps for almost two months"?

That is the most important part of this story.

[Vinca]

58. Apparently old Larry knew the appropriate signals to get arrested

and if the police had complaints of sex in the bathroom they had to do something. Would you want to send your kid to the restroom before a flight and have him run into Larry and . . . oh, never mind. Bottom line, if I was charged with lewd conduct and didn't do it, I'd fight the case to the highest court. How about you?

[Rex]

65. So he played 'footsie' with a cop? Talk about rotten luck!

Actually, until this I never heard of airport bathroom sex or would have thought about it ever.

Thanks Larry. :(

[Bluebear]

67. Craig stated “that he has a wide stance when going to the bathroom."

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/08/sen_larry_craigs_lewd_conduct.php

Jeez.

[Rex]

80. Hey I hear that! I have to plant both legs to the floor sometimes to

keep a good center of balance! Plant those feet way out there!

Hey...that guy touched me with his foot! Think I'll play a little footsie! Lalala...aww shit is that a badge? Nuh uh! NO WAY! Ruuuuuuun! Cue *toilet paper attached to shoe effect*

[Gabi Hayes]

88. sounds like that wasn't the only thing he was interested in having soundly

planted.....

[Vinca]

77. But you're not a Republican Senator.

:rofl:

[MissB]

71. No kidding!

And if I was a US senator and I was innocent, I'd make a statement to the media pronto, not just plead guilty. :rofl:

[warren pease]

68. The crime is good old GOP hypocrisy

Because Craig supported and voted for the Defense of Marriage act, and has a solid anti-gay voting record, he's a flaming hypocrite and deserves to be outed, laughed at, scorned, ridiculed, charged with public solicitation and then voted out of office.

But because he's only another in a long line of GOP sexual hypocrites, he'll just talk to god, who will forgive him, get right with his family, benefit from character testimonials from dozens of other repressed GOPers, and his life will go on as though this incident -- and previous ones like it -- never happened.

Such is life even among the more conflicted members of the ruling caste.


wp

[shireen]

72. so if i was in the restrm, listening to music on my ipod, tapping my feet to the rythmn ...

would I be arrested?

Whether or not this is a signal for soliciting sex in restrooms, it's pretty silly to arrest someone over tapping feet.

And wtf was that cop doing? Executing a spontaneous sting operation in the stalls?

Geez ... this is too weird. Beware of tapping feet.

[Bluebear]

79. Would you plead guilty to solicitation? The good Senator did.

You would have your ipod and your defense.

[DURHAM D]

82. Gay men are busted every day for less. eom

[TreasonousBastard]

75. Oh, OK, so that's it? Ummm...

he was accused of picking up some guy in the men's room who just happened to be a cop. And that's a crime? Bad luck for him, but such "communication" does tend to happen a lot from what I've seen. And it rarely ends in arrest without some act actually being performed.

Hasn't anyone guessed why the "Men's Restroom Rules" exist? Surprise, surprise, there are some guys who would rather not be hit on in the crapper and don't want to give any hints otherwise. Those who are agreeable to a quick hookup will make themselves known without wasting anyone's time or risking possible injury.

OK, so on some level he's a freak, assuming he really was hitting on the cop, and he's a Republican, so it seems to be SOP to revel in his miseery and possible political demise.

But, is it really right to bust people for this sort of thing? Even if they are Republicans?

[undeterred]

85. Maybe waving hands and tapping feet means "Can you spare a square?"

:shrug:

[ecstatic]

101. Then ask, do NOT touch! nt

[mondo joe]

106. Then why plead guilty?

[undeterred]

110. I don't know.

Why would sex in a bathroom with a stranger be exciting?

[mondo joe]

115. Oh now THAT I can answer.

For some people, a quick sexual act in a public place is very exciting - because it is dangerous, or spontaneous, or forbidden. Whatever - all those things can be very charging.

I would prefer people not do it, but I know some people are very turned on by it.

But I don't see why anyone Craig would plead guilty. Other than, y'know, that he's guilty.

[undeterred]

119. oh, you mean like president clinton

[mondo joe]

121. I don't know him so I can't say.

I can only say what I do know.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

126. Clinton Was Using The Bathroom In His Own House

He had more of a reasonable expectation of privacy then Senator Craig...

[undeterred]

135. Well, they say he liked the thrill of doing it in places where he might

get caught...

[mondo joe]

136. Who said that's true of President Clinton?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

140. Yeah...

I'm not defending his actions in that instance ; just remarking it was his bathroom...

[0007]

89. I think if Larry did indeed need a piece of toilet paper he would

have spoken up in his loud deep voice that one often hears on the Senate floor.

I can't buy into your scenario, though I do believe folks do get railroaded all the time in our present day society.

[Madspirit]

91. Why Was He Arrested?

He didn't do anything illegal unless there are some laws I don't know about. This is stupid. If they want to crack down on sex in public bathrooms they should watch until they think it is happening and then go in and bust the people. All they have so far is one foot touching another RESPONSIVE foot and someone stooping down and claiming he was picking something up. It is all conjecture and "his word against his word". How could this possibly stand up in court.

You can't bust people for these things. You can't bust people for making arrangements to meet elsewhere. If there is enough sex going on in the bathrooms to require this kind of action they should just catch some real people in the bathroom having sex. ...and it sure is funny this cop was here right at the right time to catch this politician.

Also, this kind of targets the gay community, as we only have same-sex bathrooms in this country. Still, I don't think gays should be having sex in public bathrooms either. Get a room People. There is no proof this man intended to have sex because he didn't have sex and there was no verbal confirmation either. He probably did expect to have sex but you can't arrest people for their thoughts or their expectations. They just need to stake the place out and catch real people having real sex. If it's such a problem they should have no trouble catching the real culprits.

Lee

[Sparkly]

112. "interference with privacy and disorderly conduct"

There had been complaints and other arrests in this same restroom, if I read the article correctly.

I'm a hetero woman, but surely there are ways to connect that don't harass other people. I can't imagine wanting the sexiest hottie on earth to approach me while I'm sitting on the toilet.

[Madspirit]

122. I clearly said

People shouldn't have sex in restrooms. So they should bust some actual people having sex in restrooms. I love busting a Republican. I just wish they had busted a Republican while he was committing more of an act than shoe rubbing.

Lee

[Sparkly]

127. Didn't say ya didn't.

We're not talking about "sex in restrooms."

I don't know what the other arrests or complaints involved, exactly. But it's clear they were trying to clean something up, and the shoe rubbing, waving hand under the divider, peeking and "fidgeting" added up to something Craig felt obligated to plead guilty to.

[hlthe2b]

130. Hey, Madspirit...

I have concerns about charging for "potential" crimes too, without clear attempt to "enact." But, to play devil's advocate (pardon the pun), to do the kind of surveillance that would "catch in the act," would surely involve cameras and the most invasive privacy offenses.... I suppose someone who was on drugs or drunk might be oblivious to someone in a neighboring stall while they engaged in their activity in another, but I can't imagine most would. Thus to catch in the act, how would they do so, other than to have cameras, which all of us would find unacceptable.

Just saying... This kind of arrest is ripe for problems, though, I agree.

[liberal renegade]

95. Will he have to register as a sex offender?

[Bucky]

129. I think they're called "Rangers" now

Or at least there's some statistically significant overlap.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

139. No-Because He Wasn't Charged With A Sex Offense.

He was charged with disorderly conduct...That's probably why he pled...

[liberal renegade]

141. ic

[ecstatic]

98. This is one case where I'll side with the cop

Lock his lying, whoring ass up! He's just another hypocritical, warmongering repug.

[Wiley50]

132. No Wonder that Mr Bojangles Spent So Much Time In Jail

That man was a famous toe tapper

[Skittles]

146. help me understand

why people solicit sex in public restrooms

[0007]

147. Must be the new wave.......I can't even conceive in my mind how one

go into a restroom with sex on their mind.

:shrug:

[Skittles]

150. it is absolutely disgusting

:puke:

[DemKR]

148. He is GUILTY

He pleaded it. Larry can't give us that garbage about oh I shouldn't have pleaded guilty. He's a US Senator!! He knows how the legal system works and he knows if hew ants to fight charges to not say anything until he speaks to a lawyer. Give me a freakin break

[goodhue]

152. Why do you characterize his movements as abstract?

Seems like pretty concrete solicitation to me.

[buddysmellgood]

153. HELLOOOOO PEOPLE! It's about the toilet! He didn't flush! He should burn in hell.

:sarcasm:

[kirby]

160. Get your facts 'straight'...

He ran his hands back and forth underneath a bathroom stall and didn't wash them. Yuk!

[buddysmellgood]

166. EEEWWWW. This is sounding more and more like a set up!

[whistle]

154. Sounds and reads like a mystery shopping report....

:shrug: :yoiks:

[Bucky]

161. Oh my God! Yes, that's exactly what he was doing!

Tell the client they've got another satisfied customer... in booking!

[AZBlue]

156. I guess it's enough since he pled guilty.

I did get some education on this too though. Honestly, I would have thought he was looking for some toilet paper if I'd been the cop.

[uppityperson]

157. Thank you. If I'd seen this I'd never have started my post on the same thing.

Thank you for your post. Me too.

[kirby]

158. I agree Bucky

As much as I think these Repubs are a hypocritical disgrace, I don't understand how the described sequence could have broken any laws. It certainly breaks some 'family values' and 'ethical' rules, but not laws.

When I read the article at WaPo, I immediately thought of the 'Seinfeld', can you spare a square episode.

The officer did say "A police officer who arrested him June 11 said Craig peered through a crack in a restroom stall door for two minutes and made gestures suggesting to the officer he wanted to engage in "lewd conduct."

But still - maybe lewd conduct is the charge for a "peeping tom". His behavior - staring into someones bathroom stall for 2 minutes - is peeping tom to me.

[Bucky]

162. Ah ha! NOW finally I get it!

Thanks a million! I didn't know about that staring thru the stall thing. You have eased my conscience and now I can enjoy the slow motion wreckage that will be Mr Craig's career.

[Lil Missy]

164. He's gay. It's just too bad that is an issue.

[Jed Dilligan]

165. You're right--he probably could have won a trial

if he fought it long enough and hard enough (appeals, etc.) but this would have been expensive and had just as bad an effect on his public life. He has a better hope of this dying down (despite the existence of DU) as one more politician pleading out of a minor lewdness charge.

I would point out that other types of people get arrested for non-verbal criminal solicitation all the time. What if I signaled the numbers 4-2-0 to a narc with my fingers (code for marijuana)? Or suppose I was staring at a woman in public and mimicked cunnilingus with my fingers and tongue? She could probably have me arrested under one lewdness law or another. The point, I think, is 1. that the gestures the esteemed Senator made were established code for solicitation of illicit, on-the-spot sex in a particular subculture, and 2. that they would have been invasive and disturbing if the cop had been a regular joe taking a dump.

I had someone come on to me like this (he was jacking off at a urinal when I came in--diarrhea--no choice). As soon as I sat down he came into the stall next to mine, although there were about a dozen other ones and they were all open. That was creepy enough, and he didn't get into any toe-tapping. I think the sound and stench of my purge cleared him out of there.

I'm very libertarian when it comes to drugs, porn, gambling, prostitution, etc. but stopping people from turning public restrooms into sex clubs is IMO a fine use of police power. Then again, I wouldn't be against having public sexrooms--they would actually do wonders for public health. Most of the restrooms available to the homeless are occupied by prostitutes all the time, hence the piss and shit you encounter when you visit downtown Anywhere.