Does Vick fool anybody ?

[Wiregrass Willie]

Yesterday Michael Vick said "I have to grow up". My thought was that his
actions are not those of a little boy -- most of whom love dogs --
but the actions of an immoral adult. He is a hardened thug who should
not equate himself with the innocence of a small child.

Let's hope the sentencing judge is not taken in by his newly found sensitivity and his sudden love of Jesus.

Another thought -- Having been raised in Atlanta, I always liked Andrew Young. What did Andy o yesterday ? He rushed to Vick's defense. So long Andy, old (former) friend.

[CurtEastPoint]

1. Some a still rushing to defend him...'it's only dogs' 'been going on forever...'

And yes...let's make note of who is defending him. Almost entirely black. When will people stop sticking up for somebody because they are of that person's color/sex/religion/etc.?

[rpannier]

6. There's a disingenuousness to that argument

His supporters...not you.

The argument goes (at least at ESPN.com) that people should focus on human suffering. That focusing on animals is distracting and unimportant... These people apparently cannot multi-task when it comes to seeing evil.

Argument 2 is: What about hunting? I don't know a lot about hunting, but...I don't know anyone who has said..."Hey, Julie. Go and get me a bucket of water, a battery, some jumper cables and a rope because I'm going hunting. I'm going to drown one deer. Electrocute a bear and hang a moose."

Argument 3: Vick's friends sold him out...Like that somehow mitigates Vick's involvement.

Argument 4: He made a mistake and he's sorry. Stop making a federal case out of it... Well...it is a federal case and no it isn't 't mistake. A mistake is misspelling a word, a mistake is spilling water, not seeing the stop sign.

Argument 5: It's his environment that caused this...This point was debunked by Charles Barkley and others. Many people grow up in crappy surroundings and they live law-abiding lives that do not include drowning dogs, hanging dogs and electrocuting dogs. The environment defense is an excuse.

Argument 6: It's because he's black. If this was Peyton Manning we wouldn't hear anything about it...It's not because he's black and if it was Manning, you better believe it'd be 24 hour news coverage. "Super bowl Champion quarterback, son of NFL icon is charged with abusing animals" Front page stuff.

Argument 7: It's because he's rich...They're probably right on one level. Famous and rich are fodder for the press. But, it doesn't diminish his rime.

Argument 8: It's only dogs...Dahmer and Bundy started with animals as have almost all serial killers.

Argument 9: He's sorry...I agree. Sorry he got caught and is gonna lose 100+ million dollars. He's sorry like all criminals are -- That he got caught. Notice how he's invoking God now? How he's turned his life over to Jesus? It's amazing how often that happens with criminals.

[anniebelle]

10. Animals first, humans next. Jus' sayin'

And it's not from my research on the subject, but research done by those scary scientists and psychologists and people that know of what they speak! So, we can ignore this as a schoolboy "prank". I think that's the logic Dahmer's parents used in dealing with their darling. Same with Babs and Poppy Bush and her murderous son. Watched him blow up "just frogs" and laugh his coke-filled head off! Boys will be boys. :puke:

[UnyieldingHierophant]

52. Argument 10: He's a shitty NFL quarterback

[Squatch]

2. Who?

:shrug:

[rpannier]

3. Let's see...

He lied to the NFL commissioner...
He lied to Arthur Blank, the owner of the Falcons...
He lied to his supporters...

0 for 3.

I think he'd say anything to get what he wants.
I think he'd lie to the Judge if he thought it would get him a lighter sentence.

I believe in rehabilitation...but that does not entitle one to return to the NFL.

As to Young..Isn't he the spokesman for wal-mart in the Atlanta area?

[Virginia Dare]

12. Young is a corporate mouth piece and a huge sell out..

he pissed me off long ago.

[EST]

4. You can fool some of the people all the time...

It took him all his life to become the caliber jerk he is; there's no chance he can actually accomplish and demonstrate a total change in character in less time than he has remaining of his ability to play feetball.
If he were truly repentant, instead of trying to make a deal, he would forgo some "pearl of great price" and join PETA, go to work in a dog shelter and only reluctantly, should the talent scouts come calling, be dragged back into public scrutiny.

[rpannier]

8. But...but...but

Didn't you hear him????

He's found God again and has turned his life over to Jesus Christ.

on note: It was at that moment I knew he was lying. Almost all criminals "Give their life to Jesus to try and save their sorry asses."

[youthere]

5. I'm betting this guy is:

[sandyj999]

7. It is lack of morals not immaturity

He stood there and said what he was told to say. He just doesn't get it and probably never will. I won't even comment on the "finding Jesus" part.

[southern_belle]

9. No

[natrat]

11. laurence odonnel wrote a piece defending him that was repulsive

[Virginia Dare]

13. I'm sick of hearing about what a "good" man Michael Vick is..

he's a despicable human being. He brutally tortured and killed other living things apparently just for kicks and to make his buds some money. That is sick behavior. Perhaps at one time he was a "good" kid, but if he ever was, apparently something in his personality radically changed. Perhaps it was the corrupting tidal wave of money that was thrown his way, who knows.

No, he doesn't fool me in the least. He got caught, he thought he was going to be able to talk and buy his way out of it, and he couldn't. He's done. He should never walk on an NFL football field again. What a shame, perhaps if his head hadn't gotten so big, he could have been one of the greats, a Hall of Famer. Nope, he threw it down the toilet, so he could be a "big man".

[depakid]

14. The "sudden love of Jesus" thing just reeked of insincerity

but at least he didn't read a formal statement....

[DemGa]

15. He suddenly developed the capacity to feel

Maybe losing over 100 million has that effect...:shrug:

[RebelOne]

16. The principal of some high school in Atlanta (don't remember which one)

stepped up to the podium during an assembly and asked the students to please pray for Vick.

[Stuckinthebush]

17. Oh, lord yes!

There are so many people out there who believe that one's pronouncement of faith trumps all.

Just look at the case of Richard Scrushy and Healthsouth. Arguably, Scrushy is one of the nastiest, most unscrupulous men of the late 20th century. His motto was, "Me and my wealth above all." During his trial a few years ago in Birmingham he had the great idea to start a Jesus television show and give lots of money to local churches. He was all weepy on TV and said that the Lord Weejus saved him and he has repented. Lord We-jus thank you for allowing the love of Christ to come into his heart!

The evidence was overwhelmingly against him. He was shown to have directed the cooking of books at HealthSouth to increase share prices in order to enrich himself and shareholders.

His majority fundamentalist Christian jury found him not guilty mainly because he was a man of God.

It goes to show you how stupid some can be when the word "Jesus" is thrown at them

[underpants]

18. ESPN bought it

they have been kissing his ass all day yesterday and on repeats today

[silvermachine]

26. I noticed that as well...

...and the cut-away montages they did while showing his "apology" were appalling. I actually don't blame Vick for that as much as I do ESPN.

[Marrah_G]

19. Not for a minute

He can say "I found Jesus"

He can say " It's time for me to grow up"

He can say " I am sorry for what I have done"

All of it is a LIE that not even he believes.

He still doesn't get that what he did was WRONG and why it was so WRONG. Until he truly understands what he did to those animals and feel some empathy for them then every word coming out of his mouth is just a pathetic little man saying whatever he needs to to try and "get out of trouble".

If the judge is wise then he will include a long penalty of working hands on with the ASPCA and then perhaps this punk can pull some integrity, empathy, compassion and caring from somewhere deep inside himself and truly "Grow Up".

[Orsino]

20. Well, he's given his apologists a tidy excuse to keep supporting him...

...in the face of overwhelming evidence.

[King Coal]

21. I heard that dog-fighting is big business in the SE.

Any truth in that?

[MadHound]

22. Dog fighting is a big "business" all over the country sad to say

Just go down and talk with your local shelter or local animal control. They will fill you in on all the horrific details about what is going on in your neck of the woods.

Oh, and dog fighting isn't some sort of "cultural norm" or what have you. Sadly the sadistic love for dog fighting crosses all race, ethnicity and class lines.

[Johonny]

23. Err

Get over the Vick affair. Time to move on.

[King Coal]

24. Ok bossie.

[moez]

25. If he was a lilly white

relative of John Edwards, everyone around here would be falling over themselves to make excuses for him. But, how dare a black man have the nerve to become successful in our society.

The vultures are constantly circling....

[silvermachine]

27. What bullshit

EOM

[MadHound]

28. Oh please, stop trying to play the race card in a game that has nothing to do with race

The Vick case isn't about whether he is black or white, it is about the fact that he brutally killed dogs for his own sadistic pleasure and profit. People would be just as outraged over this if it was Peyton Manning or some other white sports figure.

It is a sure sign that Vick's supporters no longer have a moral leg to stand on when they start trying to play the race card.

Give it up, you're only making yourself look foolish.

[Marrah_G]

29. Yeah because Pete Rose got a complete pass for gambling that didn't include elecrocuting animals

This is not a race issue, this is an animal cruelty issue and people would be just as outraged if it was Brady that was caught doing it. Vick's passion for watching dogs rip each other apart and his complete barbarity when it came to getting rid of dogs that weren't aggressive enough were his downfall. He threw away the opportunity of a lifetime and it is no one's fault but his own.

[moez]

30. Do you disagree with the NAACP on the issue?

The following is an excerpt from an interview with Dennis Hayes, president and CEO of the NAACP:

But Hayes cautioned against condemning the Atlanta star too quickly.

"It's real clear that Mr. Vick himself would acknowledge that he has made a mistake," Hayes said. "I think there is reason to believe in his redemption."

Hayes' comments came a day after the head of the NAACP's Atlanta chapter said Vick should be allowed to return to football after the case is resolved.

"As a society, we should aid in his rehabilitation and welcome a new Michael Vick back into the community without a permanent loss of his career in football," Atlanta NAACP President R.L. White said.

Hayes said White and others who have come to Vick's defense are expressing an overarching frustration with disparities in the criminal justice system.

"People need to understand the backdrop as some in the African-American community make their expressions of support," Hayes said. "That backdrop includes anger and distrust with the criminal justice system that disproportionately pays attention to African-Americans and Hispanics.

"While no dog deserves to be mistreated, the backdrop includes the perception among some African-Americans that the criminal justice system treats them like animals and that nobody seems willing to do anything about the disparity."

Hayes, who said the national group did not have an official position on the case, said he didn't want to speculate about whether Vick was being treated differently because he is black.

"He may in fact be being treated better than some African-Americans and Hispanics who don't have the resources and financial means that he has," Hayes said. "On the other hand, there might be some of a different race or different ethnicity who might be treated a bit differently."

God knows you guys know far better about the issues facing black Americans than he does....:eyes:

[MadHound]

34. So in other words,

Since other African Americans have gotten the short end of the stick, justice wise, we should allow Vick to skate on a crime that he freely admitted to in order to balance the scales. Is this what you and the NAACP are saying? It sure sounds like it.

[silvermachine]

36. Again...

...Bullshit. And btw, the remarks you reference above have fuck-all to do with your original post.

[SidDithers]

37. You didn't include the whole quote...

WASHINGTON (AP) Falcons quarterback Michael Vick "is not a victim" and should be held responsible for his actions involving a dogfighting ring in Virginia, the national president of the NAACP said Thursday.

"He absolutely must account for what he has done," Dennis Courtland Hayes, interim president and CEO of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said in an interview with The Associated Press. He had earlier given similar comments to NBC's "Today" show.

http://www.naacp.org/news/press/2006-08-23/index.htm

'Course, the part you left out doesn't really support what you're trying to say. So I can see why you left it out.

And to selectively quote the NAACP and make it look like their official position, is disingenius at best. Hell, the press release is titled:
"National NAACP takes 'no position' in Vick case". Don't make it look like he has the support of the NAACP.

Sid

[Marrah_G]

38. Yes I do

And their defense of his actions is disgusting.

[Tyler Durden]

57. So Vick deserves special treatment BECAUSE he is black?

Why?

[rpannier]

68. I'll disagree with them

They demanded the Duke Lacross team be suspended and expelled before the facts were in on that case.

They should pick their outrages and their defenses more carefully.

[Beaverhausen]

31. You have a lot of fucking nerve to claim that we are all racists here

fuck off.

[moez]

43. Oh really?

Look at all of the apologists in this Al Gore Jr. thread?

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2925104

Have you seen anywhere near that many for Vick? What's the difference? I'll tell you what - one is the son of a white hero and the other is an "evil" black man that most people around here seem to feel superior to.

How about Patrick Kennedy?

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1112371

Don't give me your hypocritical bullshit.....

Oh I know.... most of your best friends are probably black...

[Beaverhausen]

44. You compare drug addiction to torturing and killing dogs for sport?

again, fuck off.

I volunteered at a dog rescue shelter with pits that had been used for "training" - all had many scars, many were missing legs, tails, ears, eyes...I have seen the damage done by sick people like Vick. I don't give a shit what color his skin is. He is a sadistic psychopath who hasn't learned a thing.

[moez]

45. I compare

felonies, race and apologists.....

apparently, that hits a little close to home.

[Beaverhausen]

50. It hits close to home because as I said, I have worked with the dogs...

...tortured by people like Vick.

Have you?

I guess what he did is OK with you?

[Tyler Durden]

54. Your analogy is flawed.

Although we do still live in the land of the Massa and the home of the slave, you really don't have to be white or black to be in either category.

All that aside, your analogy fails because you compare crimes with victims to crimes without victims.

Possession of crack will get you 10 years, Dog fighting will get Vick maybe 1. Both are felonies at similar levels, both are entered into mostly willingly.

Should he be banned from professional sports because he is linked with gambling in this venture? Ask me again when Pete Rose is in the Hall of fame. I seem to remember a white referee in the NBA who is also headed to jail and banned.

I understand your meaning with the color issue: it still exists, but this is a really terrible place and issue to use your outrage on. There are too many young black men headed to and already in jail, with most getting a pretty raw deal in the courts. I think that's a better place to be outraged.

[SidDithers]

66. And the white referee is facing 25 years...

for a gambling charge that isn't too dissimilar to Vick's.

Sid

[Marrah_G]

46. Gore Jr and Pat Kennedy have a passion for watching dogs rip each others throats out?

And then for a little extra entertainment they like to electrocute dogs that aren't aggressive enough?

If Vicks had a drug problem and got some help I would be the first to say "Give him a chance to get sober"

Your arguments hold no water because they are SO incredibly different.

[moez]

51. Sure they're "SO" different -

The ones committed by white DU heroes are fine. The one committed by a black man is terrible. Never mind that Gore's son risked any number of human lives by rocketing down the highway at 100mph. Or, that Kennedy could have killed any innocent people unlucky enough to have been in the way of his drunken binge.... no problem.

You're providing beautiful examples of my point.

[Beaverhausen]

53. Do you think it's OK to torture and kill dogs for sport?

[moez]

55. Hmmmm..... I said that?

No, I'm pointing out the disparity between the way everyone is piling on Vick and the way they react to crimes of their white heroes...

I'm done arguing with people who won't hear - go find a rope and a tree.... maybe that will make you happy.

[Tyler Durden]

59. You just stepped over the line.

Perhaps you would be more comfortable with Clarence Thomas and the "Electronic Lynching" or OJ and the "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit" defense?

Your whole attitude of reverse "Jim Crow" because he is black shows very little insight: try looking at him as a RICH professional athlete who believes himself above the law, and don't give me any "he didn't know it was illegal" bull: he supposedly went to college.

[Tyler Durden]

56. You really aren't picking a good "Hero" here.

What could have happened and what did happen are two completely different issues.

Use your outrage on a more worthy target.

[moez]

60. Tyler, I appreciate your tone and your sentiment.

Your comments seem to at least show that you can see the other side to this (without the "fuck off, asshole" tone).

I disagree with you though, and I don't believe that a white hero would have been as harshly criticized by the media and society in general. I think that even here at DU, people are more than willing to excuse bad behavior by those whom they deem as worthy in other ways. Yet, for some reason, there is no attempt to see the other side for Michael Vick - I have to wonder why.

[Tyler Durden]

61. I have two words to prove you wrong:

Bill Clinton.

[moez]

62. Yes, but he wasn't thrashed around here....

I've come to expect the worst from the media; but, I would like to think that this community has a more enlightend view of the world.

[Tyler Durden]

63. Try throwing out the name PETE ROSE.

I had the PRIVILEGE of watching him steal a base after a SMASH to right that would have been a TRIPLE if the guy in front of him had moved.

I never mention him, as I believe most strongly that he's served his time, and you can't mention his name without getting pranged.

[Tyler Durden]

65. Oh and as to the Dog issue:

I would GLADLY piss on ANY person who participates in what, if they were a teenager, would be called a precursor to being a serial killer: animal torture.

Not only that, but I like dogs much better than I like most people.

[rpannier]

69. Your analogy remains flawed

What Kennedy and Gore did was wrong and many here, including myself, said so.

Vick was involved in this behavior over a long period.
At the very least he sanctioned the TORTURING, the ELECTROCUTION, the BEATING and the MURDER of these dogs.

He's a reprehensible individual.

Try saving your histrionical outrage for someone more deserving than michael vick. It might give you some credibility if you do.

[Robbien]

33. Nuts

Keep poking it with a stick. You are fooling no one.

[IndianaJones]

39. I tend to agree....your view will not be popular here. nt

[rpannier]

67. Nonsense

If this had been Peyton Manning or Matt Hasselback the coveage would have been as intense, if not more.

Save the race card for situations that warrant it.

[Beaverhausen]

32. Vick would still be killing dogs if he wasn't indicted and facing 5 years in prison

don't anyone kid themselves.

He didn't suddenly 'get it' that what he did was wrong. He was faced with losing everything, so suddenly he "understands."

BULL FUCKING SHIT

[IndianaJones]

35. I found his apology to be sincere. Of course, I don't have a deep hatred for the man. nt.

[SidDithers]

40. I found his apology to be trite and insincere...

and I don't have a deep hatred for the man either.

Sid

[High Plains]

41. Thank you.

This two-minute hate around Vick is disturbing.

[IndianaJones]

42. I've seen several journalists on ESPN that are not silent about their...

complete distaste for what Vick has done say that they found his unscripted words to be genuine.

[robcon]

47. I think Vick is sincere.

He's going to pay an enormous price - time in prison and lost income - for his stupidity. My feeling is that he will grow up and understand his anti-social leanings are pointless.

[cwydro]

48. Nope. nt

[Crabby Appleton]

49. O ye of little faith !!1!1

[katamaran]

58. Mom called me screaming that he never apologized to or for the dogs

Mom called me screaming that he never apologized to or for the dogs. That was all she was concerned with. We both think he was more sorry that he got caught than anything else.

[AZBlue]

64. Next stop: rehab.