Ford And GM Say Factories In US Face Axe

[Purveyor]

Ford and General Motors have threatened to leave Detroit and take their car manufacturing operations overseas if unions do not agree to a massive pay cut for hourly paid workers.

The threat to quit the city they call Motown because of its rich automotive heritage would be a crippling blow to Detroit, which is suffering amid a prolonged economic downturn and has been hit by the sub-prime mortgage crisis.

Ford and GM are in the thick of negotiations with the United Auto Workers union, the most powerful labour group in the industry. The car makers maintain they must dramatically reduce manufacturing costs if they are to survive in today's global economy.

--
Ford and GM have made it clear that they expect to reduce the hourly cost from $71 to about $50 - a cut of about 30 per cent. The companies are keen not to cut workers' hourly pay, but they insist that other overheads must be reduced.

If a deal cannot be reached, Ford and GM negotiators have said the companies will have no choice but to move their North American operations to countries in Latin America and Asia where manufacturing costs are cheaper.

---EOE---

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,2156191,00.html

[Squatch]

1. How are GM and Ford even competitive in today's auto market?

Their products are complete shit.

[Romulox]

15. You don't subscribe to Consumer's Reports, do you?

Buick Ties Lexus Atop Durability List

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118665988543692905.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

:eyes:

[Bassic]

32. I'll believe that one.

You wouldn't believe the number of old Buicks that still look brand new around here.

[Clark2008]

16. Really?

My Fords have always been excellent cars. Can't say the same for my husband's foreign POS (both the ex and the current).

All cars have problems, as well, and my Ford's parts are cheaper.

Want to keep costs down on American companies? Lobby for universal health care.

[Squatch]

26. Really.

Ford makes a shitty product.

[Romulox]

29. LOL. You changed your tune after my link

You still don't have any facts to back up your now qualified assertion.

Tell me, what car do you drive? I want to see where it rates in the various systematic quality surveys.

[Squatch]

30. I drive a car that with 148,000 miles on it

Over it's life, I've only spent about $3,000 in maintenance (brakes, O2 sensor, etc). It's not an American car.

As I've said before, without "changing my tune", Ford makes a shitty product.

[Clark2008]

50. OK - whatever you say since you don't freakin' own one.

My last Mustang went 10 years before it so much as needed a brake job.

But, I guess you still live in the 80s like most of this country when it comes to cars.

American cars are far better products than those Japanese products plagued by electrical and sensor malfunctions.

And, yes... my husbands have owned foreign cars and my in-laws do. My ex hubby's Nissans were pieces of crap that had electrical problems all the friggin' time and my in-laws are constantly taking their Infinite's to the shop. Heck, current hubby's Beamer's sensors freak out all the time for no reason. Me... my car hasn't had problem one.

[Squatch]

52. You were one of the lucky ones, then.

I don't have to own a piece of shit to KNOW it's a piece of shit...

"...since you don't freakin' own one." :eyes:

[Tesha]

41. If you drive a Taurus or a Sable...

If you drive (at least) a Taurus or a Sable, you might want
to check your rear brake lines. Near the rear wheels, there
are brackets that hold the brake hoses in place. These
brackets are made of mild steel and they corrode, leading
to the brake hoses getting pinched shut. You can usually
still *APPLY* the rear brakes, but you may find that they
no longer release, causingmassive brake wear or even a
stuck wheel.

Yeah, "quality was job one" when they were designing those
brackets, all right.

Tesha

[Squatch]

47. Once, at band camp...

I had to lease a new Ford Explorer because some knucklehead smacked into my car. I had it for 2 days before the dashboard started falling off. Lacking the little tabs that normally hold it on, the highly-trained, and quality-oriented assembly line worker attached the dash with wads of masking tape.

Same truck...4 of us were in the truck heading to a concert. Should have been well within the GVWR of the vehicle, but we were bottoming out in the rear suspension over the smallest bumps. It was damned dangerous as the rear wheels would bounce up off the road, chirping as they came back down. For a split second while that was occuring, maintaining vehicle control was an iffy proposition.

That thing was a royal piece of shit.

[TahitiNut]

35. Newsflash: Union workers can't overcome design and engineering weaknesses.

The quality and reliability of a vehicle aren't a result of work on the line. They're either the result of design and engineering or they're not.
:shrug:

[Squatch]

36. Are you kidding?

"The quality and reliability of a vehicle aren't a result of work on the line."

How a vehicle is physically assembled has no bearing on its quality? That, my dear, is absolutely ludicrous. And by "ludicrous", I mean "stupid". :)

[TahitiNut]

40. No, I'm not.

It's a myth. The same level of skill, for unionized workers, on the line and in fabrication is required to produce a Chevy or a Buick ... a Lexus or a Ford Escort.

"Stupid" is about having no experience in the auto industry - in assembly and manufacturing - and spouting such nonsense. It's typical of "white-collar elitism" ... looking down one's nose at labor. There's no question that workers who FAIL to do their jobs can affect quality ... but the fact is that that's more a question of supervision, working conditions, labor-management relations and other factors beyond the control of the workers than it is of the skills of the workforce.

I don't particularly give a shit how skilled the blue-collar workforce is ... no matter how hard they work they're NOT going to make Ford Escorts as reliable as Toyota Lexus'. The same caliber of workforce is used in both.

[Squatch]

43. Regardless...

whether it be the engineers or the wrench-turners, FORD STILL MAKES A SHITTY PRODUCT.

[Tesha]

45. Backing up what TahitiNut is saying...

Backing up what TahitiNut is saying, you'll find that a
well-designed product can be easily and reliably assembled
correctly, time after time after time. By contrast, badly-
designed products often require a lot of "finicky" assembly.

A lot of what we used to call American "fit-and-finish"
problems could be tracked back to designs that didn't
take into account the requirements of reliable high-
volume manufacturing. This was one of the great rev-
olutions that Edward Deming, Genichi Taguchi, their
Japanese allies and others wrought upon world-wide
manufacturing.

Tesha

[TahitiNut]

48. Exactly.

The kind of care and effort that goes into assembling a vehicle with crappy materials and poorly-designed parts is noxious. It's one of the compounding problems of "doing it on the cheap" ... when vehicle manufacturers idiotically think they can save money on parts and materials and ALSO on labor ... by cutting the workforce to the bone and overworking various stages of assembly. It's insane.

[EnviroBat]

56. None of this will even matter 10 years from now.

I was watching an episode of "How It's Made", just the other night, and they were explaining how engines are made. I was able to identify the engine as a 6 cylinder GM engine, but I couldn't be sure of the displacement. The entire thing was built by machines! Not a single assembly line worker to be found. I think this is the ultimate goal of ALL auto manufacturers. Eventually the autoworker is going to phased out completely. Car manufacturers suck, and care only about the bottom line. Interesting philosophy, who the hell will be able to afford their products when the rest of manufacturing follows suit?

[mmonk]

2. Soon America will be poor enough

that foreign companies may outsource to here.

[blondeatlast]

11. Toyota and Honda already have. They use non-union labor but have

competitive benefits. My '99 Camry was built in Tennessee and running like a new car still.

I'm surprised that Ford and GM even have factories still open here.

[porphyrian]

3. That'll help their stocks go up. - n/t

[hobbit709]

4. Won't be buying Ford or GM then

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. And tis is the final goal

to destroy this country's middle class and boy they tell us there is no war... BULLSHIT

[Clark2008]

18. Henry Ford is rolling in his grave.

He KNEW that in order to sell his product, he had to pay his help enough to afford to purchase it.

And, yes, I know he was anti-Semitic, but that doesn't take away from his business sense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. He was also anti union

but that does not mean he didn't know he had to have a market to sell his product

Hey, there is china

They have 320 MILLION young people who are entering the middle class

We have a total of 300 million as of last census

[madokie]

6. here before too long no one will be able to buy their cars anyway.

they both need to brush up on what ole henry found out about the car industry early on in his journey into the automobile world

[AmandaRuth]

7. The story is not told until we hear about

executive pay and bonus's, also whose decision it was to start making such crap cars, and why SUV's and mega trucks are being pushed on us, and what type of rewards have been made for the these type of decisions

[htuttle]

8. A 30% pay cut!!!???

Fuck that. If I were an auto worker facing a pay cut like that, I'd just start robbing banks for a living.

[rox63]

9. So how are Honda and Toyota able to manufacture cars in the US?

They seem to be making a tidy profit...

[blondeatlast]

12. Ding! We have a winner! nt

[Romulox]

17. By hiring scabs and temp workers

But the scabs eventually will demand better working conditions too...

Activists protest Toyota conditions

A group of Kentucky community activists including labor and church leaders will gather outside Toyota Motor Corp.'s oldest and biggest U.S. assembly plant today to deliver recommendations, including limits on the use of lower-paid temporary workers, to improve working conditions at the factory.

The group's high-profile appearance, which will be followed by a news conference, is taking place amid mounting efforts by the United Auto Workers union to organize foreign-owned plants in the United States to offset the drop in its membership rolls.

Toyota's Georgetown plant is a prime target because of the Japanese automaker's prominence in the U.S. market and because some of its workers already have expressed discontent in lawsuits.

The group, calling itself the Kentucky Workers' Rights Board, drew up its recommendations after a June 10 hearing that included accounts from current and former plant workers and labor experts. The workers' complaints ranged from what they described as unjustified firings, on-the-job injuries and reliance on lower-paid temporary workers.

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070828/AUTO01/708280352

[blondeatlast]

55. And GM and Ford are doing what to accomodate theri unions?

Asking them to cut wages by 30%?

Don't condemn the witness for what the criminal is doing...

[Clark2008]

19. Well, Toyota now tops the recall list...

...just saying.

[Bassic]

34. One of the big problems for American companies,

is that they don't have access to asian markets. No wonder they don't sell as many cars as asian manufacturers.

[Supersedeas]

37. the Elephant in the room that no powdered-face on TV will touch

[Fierce]

10. If we had single-payer health care,

that would reduce the hourly cost right quick. I know UAW and company negotiators have talked about that. But they better start talking faster.

[blondeatlast]

13. Ding to the second power. Another winner. nt

[Burma Jones]

14. BINGO

[bigscott]

23. 71 dollars an hour

is over 140,000 per year for these guys - 50 per hour is still over 100,000 per year - that is a lot of money and that is JUST for a 40 hr week - NO OVERTIME

(I don't begrudge them a dime of it and a 30% pay cut is brutal) but How the Hell can they be competitive paying that kind of wage???:shrug:

[Jim__]

24. That's what he company claims as hourly cost.

It's not the hourly wage. Here's a bit from the UAW web site:

As of the second quarter of 2003, a UAW-represented assembler earns $25.63 per hour of straight time. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker earns $29.75 per hour of straight time. Between 1992 and 2002, inflation-adjusted real wages for UAW-represented autoworkers increased by 13.5 percent. This is a compounded annual pay increase, after inflation, of 1.28 percent.

[bigscott]

51. thanks JIm

I figured they had to be lumping in all their costs with that number

I appreciate the link!
S

[bullwinkle428]

21. And people wonder why so many new plants are being built in Canada!!

[Roland99]

46. Vote Kucinich! :-)

he he

[Javaman]

20. isn't this basically black mail? nt

[ramapo]

22. Yes

It is just another nail in the coffin that holds an untold number of manufacturing workers.

[Romulox]

27. Not blackmail. Cause and effect.

Over 1/2 of the cars sold in the US are Foreign makes. Toyotas and Hondas are assembled in the US of parts that are primarily made overseas. When you buy one, you are putting unionized American workers out of work.

Cause and effect.

[Clark2008]

53. GREAT POINT!!

Welcome to DU. We need some reasonable people on this point!

:hi:

[Yupster]

Kind of like what happened in the National Hockey League strike

It works too.

Expect bankrupcy scares too.

[bleedingheart]

25. GM and Ford's message - Let's Return to the Gilded Age where you peasants

know your place...

[Romulox]

28. Ford and Gm are losing **billions** each year

What in hell do you expect them to do?

[bleedingheart]

33. Well tell me then...is Ford and GM management going to take a paycut

are they going to take 50% less?

And if they are losing billions it is their own fault...their poor management and poor designs.

I remember the 70's and the first "car crisis"...the Japanese ate their lunch then...and they are doing it now...

Ford and GM have sat on their laurels long enough...either they change...or they die and it has little to do with the folks doing the assembly work..

Meanwhile...they probably have every intention of shutting down those plants anyways...they both have plants all over the world where they can shit on workers to their hearts content.

[Tesha]

49. Find competent managers?

> Ford and Gm are losing **billions** each year
>
> What in hell do you expect them to do?

o Find competent managers?
o Sell the products that people actually want to buy?
o Argue for universal, single-payer health care?

Stuff like that.

Tesha

[blondeatlast]

57. Precisely. They are 30 years behind the times. nt

[Medical Speaking]

31. Pay Cut

Its always the hourly workers they want to cut there pay. How about the salaried folks and there high salaries. Clark Equipment did the same thing when I worked there. Then they moved the plant south and cut hourly wages 50%.
It will not end until we go to the bottom.

Semper Fi

[Beelzebud]

39. Employees are asked to take pay cuts while CEO's enjoy Million dollar bonuses.

[Beelzebud]

38. This is the goal of Free Trade. CHEAP LABOR

They want to marginalize the working people.

Thats why corporatists are so anti-union. The unions are the only measure of power the working class hold.

Free Trade is an attempt to lower the value of labor.

[Roland99]

44. Labor costs *are* a huge part of the cost of an automobile.

When Ford goes on shutdown or people get laid off, they are still paid handsomely even though they aren't working. That's a huge burden on the bottom line.

But, imagine if the execs were willing to take some pay cuts and spread about $1 billion around and cut costs that way?

Or, imagine a Kucinich administration where Ford and GM were not on the hook for who-knows-how-much in insurance coverage for their employees.

[newportdadde]

54. All workers, blue/white whatever collar need to care about this.

The reason so many of us non-union white collar workers have such good benefits is because of unions such as the UAW. Major US employers match up their benefits packages to match up with other large corporations.