Vick's sheer moral turpitude

[Madspirit]

Deschanel: The sad truth about dogfighting

By Emily Deschanel

Special to CNN

Editor's note: Emily Deschanel is an actress and animal rights activist. She's a spokesperson for the Humane Society of the United States and currently stars in the TV series "Bones." She's also appeared in movies such as "Glory Road," "Spiderman 2" and "Cold Mountain."

LOS ANGELES, California -- Like most decent Americans, I have been sickened by the Michael Vick dogfighting debacle. There can be no excuse for torturing and abusing man's best friend -- forcing dogs to fight to the death, under penalty of death. That a high-profile athlete like Vick carried this out in the name of "sport" makes it all the more disgusting.

If any good can be gleaned from the Michael Vick situation, it may be an increased public awareness of dogfighting and the need to stop this sickening spectacle. Since Vick's indictment, animal control agencies across the country have reported a sharp increase in the number of calls about dogfighting.

While the outcome of the Vick case is a great victory against dogfighting, there is still much to be done. Although Vick's dogfighting operation has been dismantled, it was only one of countless thousands of such operations across the country, where dogs suffer untold horrors at the hands of their handlers.

Now that we have strong laws in place, it's time to tackle dogfighting at its roots.

Unfortunately, legions of today's youths are being sold the lie that fighting dogs is a way to prove their bravery and machismo. This twisted mind-set is marketed by certain forces of popular culture, from high-rolling rap artists who boast about their pit bulls' prowess to millionaire sports stars like Vick.

As a result, the scourge of street dogfighting has infiltrated virtually every urban area across the country. Gang members and street thugs seek street cred by showing they have the baddest dogs on the block.

Although less organized than the larger-scale, professional dogfighting operations run by big shots like Vick, the street dogfighting carried out in dark basements and back alleys is no less brutal. Dogs are beaten, abused and goaded into aggression and then set upon each other in duels to the death. Poor fighters are an embarrassment to their owners and are killed by brutal means.

Compounding the tragedy is the fact that even if these dogs are rescued from their abusers, happy endings are few and far between. Most rescued fighting dogs have been selectively bred for such extreme aggression to other dogs that -- even while they are loving toward people -- they cannot be safely adopted into the community. Sadly, humane euthanasia is their only option.

I have heard it said that the while Americans may find the Vick case compelling, it's inconsequential to society at large, and we should be worrying about larger issues. I have heard others complain that Vick's victims were "just dogs," and that Americans' outrage is overblown.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The outcome of the Vick case has far-reaching implications for the dogfighting world and therefore, community safety overall.

Because violence breeds violence, dogfighting endangers communities wherever it occurs. Aside from hurting animals, it nurtures a violent mind-set that makes it easier for people to brutalize other people. The results of a recent Chicago Police Department study bear this out: Of those arrested for animal crimes, including dogfighting, 65 percent had past arrests for battery.

These statistics, coupled with the sheer moral turpitude involved in torturing our canine companions to death, should be enough motivation for Americans to accept that dogfighting is no sport. It's a social scourge that we all must take part in fighting.

[flvegan]

1. I have yet to hear Vick apologize for what was done to the dogs in any way.

[Madspirit]

6. You are SO Right

He has apologized to lots of people but not once said that what he did to those poor dogs was wrong. What a miscreant asshat.
Lee

[zonkers]

33. He should have set up a million fund for ex fighitng dogs. He's a POS.

Hope he gets 5 years.

[flvegan]

44. And he still has possible state charges to face.

Could be up to 40 years on those.

[zonkers]

49. If Vick apology was for real, he needed to mention the fear, pain and misery he

caused those animals and how he how he regrets promoting the dog fighting culture.

[northernsoul]

2. Ms. Deschanel has just gained a fan

Well stated. If her acting is on par with her skills as an essayist, I may have to give 'Bones' a view this fall.

[Madspirit]

4. I LOVE Bones

It is one of my favorite shows on tv. I started watching because David Boreanaz is on it and I love "Angel"...huge Whedon fan...Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Serenity. Also, I love Kathy Reich's books and she approves of the series, even doing a cameo. The show is great fun. I love it. You should Netflix the first couple of seasons.

Lee

[rhett o rick]

3. Star Parker's rationalization of Vick's behavior.

Star Parker comes to the defense of Michael Vick and tries to rationalize saying that PETA is bad so why pick on poor Vick.
See linked article http://www.kentucky.com/529/story/158742.html

Who is this Star Parker and what are her qualifications as a columnist?? This article is terribly written.

Here is my response to her article:
How sad that you try to rationalize away the seriousness of Michael Vick’s crimes. With some kind of twisted logic you try to shift the attention to your hatred of PETA. You argue that it is terrible that the PETA organization wants to help animals and not fight abortion (apparently the only issue you think is worthy). And it sickens me to think that there are those of you that are so passionate about saving human life when you are discussing abortions but seem somehow able to rationalize turning a blind eye to the tens of thousands of children that are being killed in Iraq by American troops, some burning to death by phosphorus chemical weapons, cluster bombs, or innocently stepping on personnel mines. I hope your rationalization isn’t that they aren't Christian therefore they are the same as animals and deserve no special consideration. I think that was the twisted logic used to rationalize the massacre of the Native Americans. Your twisted logic included the weird logic that since Jenna James was a PETA supporter, we should think less of PETA. Puleeeez!!

I did agree that the NFL is between a rock and a hard place but not for your twisted logic that the dilemma is between Vick being a sick human being and PETA doesn’t support the anti-abortion. The dilemma for the NFL is that Vick is a good football player and how can they get him back making them money for them as soon as possible.

I hope you aren’t including those of us that think Mr. Vick is a criminal, even though he is a good football player, in your “Those who thirst for his destruction…” description. Some of us just want NFL players to be subject to the same sentences that the rest of us are.

How sad that you try to rationalize away the seriousness of Michael Vick’s crimes.

[Tyler Durden]

5. Animal Torture is a Serial Killer Precursor...

Is it not?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. No.

Many serial killers have a history of animal torture. Not the other way around.

[Madspirit]

9. Whatever

"The results of a recent Chicago Police Department study bear this out: Of those arrested for animal crimes, including dogfighting, 65 percent had past arrests for battery."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. And?

[northernsoul]

13. Significant overlap creates a logical inference

that the relationship between violence towards animals and violence towards humans are more than coincidentally related. If your position that animal abuse is not a necessary condition of progression towards serial murder, you are correct. However, the inference that there is a strong connection between the two is warranted.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Correlation does not equal causation.

I'd expect the original author to understand that.

"However, the inference that there is a strong connection between the two is warranted."

I disagree. Very few animal abusers go on to commit serial murders.

[Madspirit]

20. but 65% of them in Chicago smack other people around

...and some do become serial killers. I would say that violence begets violence begets violence....

Lee

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Sure, and 75% of them play violent video games.

98% of them have eaten McDonalds.

28% of them voted in the last presidential election.

76% of them read The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn in high school English class.

89% of them understand that correlation does not equal causation.

"...and some do become serial killers."

And the overwhelming majority don't. If you're going to try and connect Vick with serial murderers, you might as well call him a witch.

[Madspirit]

24. Yeah...because that's the same thing as hands on torture...yup

Your brilliance and in-depth insight is blinding me. Not. :rofl:

Lee

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Yeah, well, you don't understand the difference between correlation and causation.

So when you say things like "Your brilliance and in-depth insight is blinding me," you're really not saying very much.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[progdonkey]

45. Those aren't at all analogous examples...

The argument isn't simply that "most people who engage in activity B have engaged in activity A, so people who engage in activity A have a high likelihood of engaging in activity B", but that the nature of the activities are very highly related--if not really the same activity done to an extreme.

Yes, 70% of serial killers have probably read Huck Finn, but is there anything about reading Huck Finn that is analogous to torturing and murdering people?

Torturing animals, however, is very close to torturing people. Sick kids want a progressively bigger animal, since they've already gotten bored with pulling the wings off flies or blowing up frogs. The behavior itself is extremely similar, so it is a very good indicator of future violence towards people, including murder.

You've turned "Correlation isn't Causation" into its own closed-minded mantra. People eat at McDonald's because they're hungry and don't want to (or can't) spend a lot on food; they vote because they care about who runs the country; they read Huckleberry Finn because it's great literature; they play violent video games because it's a fictional escape, the graphics are nice, the story is entertaining; they torture animals because they get a rush from inflicting pain on other living things.

Now, which one of those is similar to torturing and murdering people? Which one of those encourages a mindset that other living things exist solely for your entertainment and you have the right to make them die for your amusement?

[Madspirit]

47. I Am Posting Actual Studies Now...since he likes to just make stuff up...n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. ROFLMAO.

"MO ONE IS CLAIMING THAT DOG FIGHTING CAUSES SOCIOPATHY."

No, but apparently disagreeing with you does. :rofl:

"No one is saying it causes sociopathy"

You said yourself that "violence begets violence." :spray:

This Deschanel character is trying to say that animal violence causes domestic violence, although the literal interpretation of her study is saying domestic violence causes animal violence. :evilgrin:

[Tyler Durden]

18. You're probably right....

I mean Dr. Frist, "The Cat Boy" didn't perform any more DIRECT violent acts except perhaps for enthusiastically promoting the mass murder still going on in Iraq...

Wait a minute...

[Beaverhausen]

10. from the article above:

Because violence breeds violence, dogfighting endangers communities wherever it occurs. Aside from hurting animals, it nurtures a violent mind-set that makes it easier for people to brutalize other people. The results of a recent Chicago Police Department study bear this out: Of those arrested for animal crimes, including dogfighting, 65 percent had past arrests for battery.

[Iris]

34. And that doesn't even include people who are injured by these dogs.

The idea that there were all those dogs in a rural area is horrifying to me. If a few had gotten out and formed a pack, they could have done a lot of damage.

[IndianaJones]

7. oh the false outrage. nt.

[northernsoul]

14. Whose outrage is false?

I think I don't understand your post - can you elaborate?

[IndianaJones]

16. the author of that "essay". of course..this is only my opinion. nt.

[northernsoul]

22. What leads you to believe Ms. Deschanel is insincere?

What ulterior motivation animates her if her outrage is false?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Well, she conflates correlation with causation.

That's pretty insincere.

"What ulterior motivation animates her if her outrage is false?"

I don't know. Posturing?

[northernsoul]

30. What does a purported logical error have to do with sincerity of motivation?

With all due respect, I believe you are conflating cogency of argument with motivation for offering an argument. Are the promoters of all (purportedly) logically flawed arguments insincere in their motivation?

[Madspirit]

32. EXCELLENT Point

Even if her stats are wrong or meaningless, what the fuck does it have to do with her sincerity. See Bornagin has no sincerity or heart so he cannot imagine it in others.

Lee

[northernsoul]

35. In fairness, I can't speak to BAH's motivations for his position

and it would be improper for me to speculate. IIRC, we've been through this before and I regard it as a bona fide disagreement about the import of empirical evidence regarding the correlation between violence against animals and violence against humans. I don't think anyone is going to dissuade him from his position, and he's yet to articulate an argument that makes me think any differently.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. You're right, I spoke to soon.

I thought this Emily Deschanel person was some sort of columnist, and likely understood the difference between correlation and causation. But it turns out she's just an actress. So it could be she's just plain stupid instead of dishonest.

[Madspirit]

46. Here is One of MILLIONS

Am J Psychiatry 122:1431-1435, June 1966
doi: 10.1176/appi.ajp.122.12.1431
© 1966 American Psychiatric Association

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/12/1431

ENURESIS, FIRESETTING AND CRUELTY TO ANIMALS: A TRIAD PREDICTIVE OF ADULT CRIME
DANIEL S. HELLMAN M.D.1 and NATHAN BLACKMAN M.D.
1 643 Sixth Avenue South, Suite 105, St. Petersburg, Fla.



A study of 84 prisoners shows that out of the 31 charged with aggressive crimes against the person, three-fourths had the triad of enuresis, firesetting and cruelty to animals whereas in the 53 subjects accused of a nonaggressive crime only 15 had either the triad or a partial triad. It is postulated that the presence of the triad in the child may be of pathognomonic importance in predicting violent antisocial behavior. The relationship of the triad with early rejection or severe deprivation by parental figures is discussed. The importance of early detection of the triad and serious attention toward resolving the tensions that precipitated it is stressed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Do the authors know you're misrepresenting their study so poorly?

What percentage of animal abusers end up being serial killers?

I don't know either, but it rounds down to zero.

[Madspirit]

26. The Have Absolutely NO reason to think this.

It's presumption at its worse, simply because they don't give a shit and are sadistic. I say "Ignore"....

Lee

[Madspirit]

28. These People Obviously Haven't Even Taken a Psychology 101 Course

Nor have they ever yet grown a heart. So they can only rail against those with hearts and who do care.

Lee

[Madspirit]

19. My Outrage Could Not Be More Sincere

This obvious sadist just goes from one Vick thread to another saying we are faking our outrage. He is too stupid to actually read all the heartfelt words being spoken by all the animal lovers here. Being as I love animals much more than I love people I have actually wept over this between my bouts of rage over it...and being as this moron doesn't even know us...just put him on Ignore the way I have. I know who it is because it shows as "Ignore" and IT is the only person I have on Ignore.
Lee

[LanternWaste]

52. I've noticed...

I've noticed that on many of the Vick threads, you make vague implications about a number of people, both posters and Original Authors insinuating racism, false motive and worse; yet you usually fail to cite the substantive issue at hand, or precise and relevant examples of the accusations you lay at the feet of people and/or organizations.

Why is that?

[IndianaJones]

54. Perhaps I have missed the substance in the threads that call..

for his castration, lynching or for him to be the target of a new game "black dog"

[LanternWaste]

65. And you apply this same strict standard...

And you apply this same strict standard to those who call for castration on threads discussing pedophiles?

[HardRocker05]

59. hmm, *you* may not give a f-k about anybody but yourself, but some of the rest of us actually do.nt

[rudeboy666]

12. I don't know

I think it's safe to assume that most Americans accept that dogfighting is morally reprehensible.

However, the fact that the author of this piece tends to focus on 'certain forces of popular culture' (read: black) makes me uneasy.

As many have pointed out, issues of race and class are also at play in this debate. This is unfortunate because the legitimate issue of animal cruelty will be passed over.

[Madspirit]

23. You cannot safely assume anything

If we have people on a supposedly progressive site defending this moral miscreant sadist, then I do not think we can safely assume anything.

Vick is black and since most of the urban street gangs who do this are persons of color, well, we cannot avoid the issue because of this. It is an uncomfortable issue but it still has to be dealt with.

If we were discussing inner city poverty it would also primarily relate to persons of color but we cannot avoid it because of this. We just have to be sensitive to not stereotyping all persons of color with this brush. This is not a beige world. There are certain crimes that are more prevalent among certain groups. We cannot be blind to the crime because of this. We need to be more sociologically aware of what causes inner city problems and street cred problems and violence in the streets and dog fighting and all the things that gangs do...poverty, drop-out rates, the unequal playing field for persons of color that still very much exists... ...but if we can't even discuss it, how can we do anything about it? Bubba on the farm may do this too but not at the same great rate as happens inner city. The issue has to be addressed, including the social issues that drive people to these behaviors...gang behavior. "Lord of the Flies" was about little white boys. Anyone aware knows that certain conditions breed certain behaviors. ...and the conditions of the poor in the Inner City is one of those situations that cause this behavior and many of the poor in the inner city are persons of color. It isn't inherent to the color but to the situations persons of color are forced to live in.

...but Vick is rich and famous and isn't in a street gang. He is just a run-of-the-mill sociopath and his color is irrelevant.

Lee

[Iris]

37. I live in Atlanta and have heard lots of black commentators (radio personalities, mostly)

basically saying this was just "some dogs." On one morning show, the token black guy said that dog fights are a normal part of life where he grew up and he's immune to them.

That said, several black journalists wrote some pretty compelling pieces about this situation, so maybe "just some dogs" just sounds better on the radio.

[Madspirit]

51. It Would Be Racist, Condescending and Patronizing TO Ignore It Because He's Black...n/t

[rhett o rick]

63. Tell that to Star Parker. nm

[IndianaJones]

55. many if not most do not care about the animal aspect of the case. nt.

[tears4terra]

57. Huh? That's some twisted thinking...

The animals ARE the reason that so many of us are outraged! Vick is a sadistic creep! Those that give him a pass because of his color are racist.

[IndianaJones]

58. that is certainly what many people claim.

who exactly is racist?

[Madspirit]

60. Welcome

...and you're responding to people who are not worth your spit. I promise. Some here actually do have heart and empathy and compassion for the most helpless of the helpless and some here don't.

Both these posters without any heart are on most people's Ignore lists.
Lee

[idgiehkt]

61. I think it's misleading

And I don't know if there is any statistical proof of it but someone needs to produce some (evidence that dog-fighting is statisticaly more prevalent in black communities in this country). Because the 'image' of pit bulls associated with rap culture doesn't prove anything at all, any more than it proves that all black americans own Uzi's or drive Bentleys. I find the whole assertion vaguely nauseating, if only because I am a white southerner and I know that these dogs are fought by whites as well as blacks and that this is not a racial issue. I am sure that leaders in the black community do not want Vick to get a harsher sentence than if he were white, but justifying the killing of these dogs and the whole crooked culture of animal cruelty, guns, drugs, and illegal gambling (i.e. organized crime) is a stupid way to go about expressing the desire for Vick to be sentenced fairly.

Here is an black ex-NFL dude who got busted for dog fighting (this bust was huge, 3 times the number of dogs seized as in Vick's case) and walked with a 5 year suspended sentence (these were state charges):
http://www.pet-abuse.com/profiles/1912/

Here is a white dude who got busted after a lifetime of breeding and training dogs to fight, who is known worldwide. He has 48 state counts and if convicted will probably die in jail:
http://www.hsus.org/pets/pets_related_news_and_events/dog_fighting_kingpin_toppled_in_louisiana_raid.html

I'm not detecting any kind of pattern or racial bias here. If Boudreaux gets 10 or 15 years, which will probably be a death sentence for him, then can we say that the courts are racist in these cases against whites since Johnson got a suspended sentence and Vick will probably do very little time, unless VA decides to throw the book at him?

[Madspirit]

15. I'm Going To Keep This Kicked

Violence begets violence and the victims here were the most helpless of the helpless. Anyone who does these kinds of things to children and/or animals is a brute who does not deserve to walk among us. What kind of mindset does it take to brutalize those who cannot even fight back? Where are the "balls" in that kind of behavior? How can being so cowardly give folks street cred? It is amazing that the highest acts of cowardice are practiced by those who claim machismo. How can it possibly be macho to torture? How can it possibly be macho to torment? How can it possibly be macho to do THIS to an animal that cannot escape or fight back? Where are the "balls" in that? These people are the ultimate cowards...schoolyard bullies all grown up.. Bullies are, by definition, cowards and sadists.

Lee

[Johonny]

29. because you

know a kid that grows up in the inner city. A good chance his dad most likely is in jail or dead. His family probably has seen either drug or alcohol abuse. Physical abuse is probably no stranger either. He most likely knows or has seen someone killed. Street gangs are a way of life, not something on a TV show or an album. School is a great thought but it's hard to learn when you goto school hungry and no one at home has time to help with the learning process. To that kid I'd say chances are he isn't probably in a great environment to learn about the value of animal rights. Cause you know his life ain't that great.

[ComerPerro]

39. it will be interesting to see the long term effects on the dog fighting "world"

if, as the author notes, reports and calls about dogfighting are up, Vicks very public downfall could end up being a very good thing (and not just because it put a halt to his ring).

[yewberry]

41. I've been reading that busts are way up.

Both HSUS and PeTA have standing $5K rewards for information leading to conviction. People seem to taking the problem much more seriously now.

I hope something good will come of all this.

[ComerPerro]

42. I think his status as a former sports idol will open a lot of peoples' eyes

especially young kids.

[Madspirit]

56. Rewards are a Good Idea...very...n/t

[idgiehkt]

62. I think it already has

at least in terms of educating people about the horrible cruelty that takes place...it cannot be denied now, even for the most unconcerned it makes this activity harder to justify or dismiss.

[flvegan]

64. WAY up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=231x16470

[Madspirit]

43. I Agree Comer! ...n/t

[Madspirit]

48. One of MILLIONS of Studies...

Am J Psychiatry 122:1431-1435, June 1966
doi: 10.1176/appi.ajp.122.12.1431
© 1966 American Psychiatric Association

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/12...

ENURESIS, FIRESETTING AND CRUELTY TO ANIMALS: A TRIAD PREDICTIVE OF ADULT CRIME
DANIEL S. HELLMAN M.D.1 and NATHAN BLACKMAN M.D.
1 643 Sixth Avenue South, Suite 105, St. Petersburg, Fla.



A study of 84 prisoners shows that out of the 31 charged with aggressive crimes against the person, three-fourths had the triad of enuresis, firesetting and cruelty to animals whereas in the 53 subjects accused of a nonaggressive crime only 15 had either the triad or a partial triad. It is postulated that the presence of the triad in the child may be of pathognomonic importance in predicting violent antisocial behavior. The relationship of the triad with early rejection or severe deprivation by parental figures is discussed. The importance of early detection of the triad and serious attention toward resolving the tensions that precipitated it is stressed.

[Madspirit]

53. kick