I am not a person opposed to spirituality

[Maestro]

and I do not automatically oppose those that say they are deeply religious. I respect a person's wish to believe in God, Buddha or the FSM. But this is just ridiculous. How difficult is it for people to understand why there should be a fundamental separation of church and state? How is a state or federal government going to adequately serve all of its citizens who, in its totality, are not all Christians when we are continually bombarded with crap legislation like the one that was recently passed in Texas, and very quietly I might add. As an administrator in a school district, I am perplexed at how I am supposed to follow this new law and still follow federal law and the Constitution. Of course, this is exactly what these people want. They want to force the issue at the SCOTUS so that the ultra conservative SCOTUS will hear the case and rule in favor of them. * has embolden these crazy fundamentalists to strike out and spineless legislators are letting them win.

Districts vary in approach to new law
By KATHERINE CROMER BROCK
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

Three more school districts adopted policies on Monday night to comply with a state mandate aimed at giving students more opportunities to express religious and other viewpoints.

The requirement was part of the Religious Viewpoints Antidiscrimination Act, which the state Legislature passed this spring. The act has sparked debate among school districts about how to implement the requirement. School board attorneys fear lawsuits in response to the new law, which may conflict with federal law.

School districts are required to adopt a policy by Saturday.

The act provides a model policy, while the Texas Association of School Boards provides another policy that districts can adopt.

Local school boards can also adopt their own versions.

More here

Seriously, when is someone going to stop these people from wrecking the Constitution and what this country stands for? Once again a law basically requiring religious actions in school events is being forced on us. I am stunned but at the same time, this doesn't surprise me. I spoke with my district's officials today and they are formulating a plan to respond to this. I will know soon what I have to do.

[texastoast]

1. Fundies

And I've been noticing some funny comment posts on the newspapers here in Texas about how confused all the wingnuts are going to be at the Friday Night Lights football games when the Christians have to share the game prayer with Wiccans and Muslims.

Now that should be interesting.

:popcorn:

[Mythsaje]

2. They're going to be surprised to find out how militant wiccans

can be when it comes to making their presence felt. There are those who prefer to remain in the broom closet, but there are others who want acceptance.

[ourbluenation]

4. I often point that out to the rightie fundies who want bible vs displayed

in every public hall in the land. Open it up for them, then shut the hell up when the non judeo-christians wanna put their stuff up on the walls too...muslims, hindu, buddist, wiccan, etc...

[Mythsaje]

13. THEY'RE the ones who want "Special Rights."

Not the gays.

They really hate it when you point that out, btw.

[NMMNG]

3. They're often fond of calling atheism a religion

Wouldn't they just crap themselves if all of these laws got passed and atheists took full advantage of them. :evilgrin:

[Maestro]

37. I would so love this to backfire.

That would make Gov. Goodhair's (Perry) head explode! :evilgrin:

[NMMNG]

40. Me too

They want religion in public, but only their religion. They'd crap five shades when every religion imaginable began competing for equal time should their precious law get passed.

[Maestro]

15. Yes, you are right, but what strikes me as just

downright confrontational is how poorly the law is written basically requiring time for prayer and other religious rights. Sikes, Hindus, Wiccans, are going to request time for prayer or meditation. It is going to be a huge mess.

[NMMNG]

41. Yes, it is

http://www.turoks.net/Cabana/ChildrenPullOutYourChickens.htm

[ismnotwasm]

5. Me neither

I always explain my agnostic viewpoint in very polite terms. I am intellectually and emotionally incapable of believing in deities. (I've tried --honestly)

But, I do believe in courtesy. And I vehemently believe in the separation of church and state. There are plenty of churches, homes etc. to provide people of faith places to gather or worship. Hell, there is even "Curves" a Christan weight loss gym. My point is there is no lack of places for expressions of spirituality or faith. (Rather the opposite, but that's just a POV that doesn't mean anything)

Why bring it into schools? Why get into courtrooms? Why get into places tax dollars pay for, given our wide variety of beliefs and non belief?

I don't get it. It's discourteous at best, but also deeply wrong and destructive of everything America was supposed to stand for. I hope it stops. I'm glad you took action.

[Skittles]

6. I am sick of religious shit

I used to be tolerant but I am fast losing my patience with people screaming about their f***ing FAITH and trying make us all have to put up with it :puke:

[spoony]

7. You do have to put up with it.

You have zero choice in the matter. You live in a world with billions of religious people. Deal.

[Skittles]

8. I won't put up with them forcing their crap on me

that I REFUSE to put up with

[spoony]

10. It seems their existence is "forcing their crap" on you.

People are allowed to "scream about their fucking faith" all they want. You have zero power to stop it. You can post a trillion puking smilies and it won't change the fact that religious expression is a freedom that isn't going away any time soon.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

11. Did it ever occur to you to wonder...

Just *why* religion antagonizes some people so much?

Teaching children that they are going to be tortured for eternity for simply doing what comes naturally to them is a form of child abuse.

Some people never get over that.

[SoonerPride]

23. Don't forget mutliation of genitalia.

They love to torture children and slash and dice up penises.

It is criminal and must be called for what it is.

God is NOT great.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

36. I've already seen a circumcision flame war..

And have no desire to get into that at all. :D

[spoony]

39. Your issues aren't my problem.

Just as being mugged by a black guy doesn't give you the right to be a racist, whatever experience people have with a religious person or persons is not only no legitimate reason to be an atheist, it is also a piss-poor excuse for being an intolerant bigot who says we must "drive religionists from our midst" and other frighteningly ignorant things anti-theists feel free to say here.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

42. Thank you for understanding...

Your compassion for those harmed by religion is truly Christlike.

[spoony]

47. To use the old* atheist chestnut

of God being like Santa Claus, were you also permanently traumatised by the threat of getting coal in your stocking? Or that the pied piper will take you from your parents? If you disbelieve both now, what's the difference to you? You'd have my sympathy if you really were traumatised, but you would also have my scorn for cynically faking such a thing to use as a cudgel. And, again, even if true it is no excuse for bigotry.

*still not as old as the lame "bait, wait, 'unChristian' retaliate" play you're so weakly throwing down.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

49. Umm.. Where did I say that I was harmed by religion?

Quotes please..

So it is your contention that teaching young children that they are going to be tortured for eternity for simply acting as normal children do causes them no harm whatsoever?

[spoony]

53. My contention is that such "teaching" is far more rare than you contend

I know loads of religious people, many of whom are parents. I've never witnessed, nor experienced as a child, any adult saying that any child will go to hell "for simply acting as a normal child." If hell is ever invoked, and frankly that is not often, it is in church. And, of course, in that theology people do not go to hell for being children nor is it usually used as a blanket threat.

My parents have told me of Catholic schools and how some nuns did use that threat to keep kids in line, and as far as harm, the only harm I can tell is that it drives them from the church. I'll certainly not defend that sort of behaviour though (the threats), and as a Lutheran see echoes of ancient warping of theology in that sort of thing.

But by and large that simply isn't normal in Christian households, nor I think in other religious households. Religious people are not the ghouls some here view them as.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

55. LOL,, I guess you don't know any fundies...

That is exactly how they keep the kids in line, with fear of hellfire and damnation.

Kids masturbate, that is perfectly normal behavior and I know for a fact that in many fundie households they are told they are going to hell for doing that.

Did you see "The Passion of the Christ"?

A torture porn flick and fundies dragged their children to it by the hundreds of thousands.

Just the sort of thing you want a young child to see, someone whipped to bloody shreds and then nailed to a cross to slowly suffocate. (that's the way most people died by crucifixion, being hung from the arms like that greatly restricts your breathing)

I have a very old friend who flipped from being a professional drug dealer to a somewhat extreme fundie (a very common thing). He and his son will watch the most gruesome movies you can imagine without ever even thinking about it and yet anything with even the slightest hint of sex is verboten in their household.

Violence good, loving sex bad.

That's the fundie mantra.

[Mythsaje]

14. People are entitled to believe whatever stupid shit they want...

I'm entitled to ignore them at every opportunity.

That's all I ask for.

[SoonerPride]

20. Ignore them at your own peril

They will come to convert you, round you up, then re-educate you.

Religionists and spiritists must be fought and driven from our midst.

[Mythsaje]

28. Now THAT attitude bugs me at least as much.

It's a dangerous mindset that grants power to the enemy and ignores people who might otherwise be on your side.

[spoony]

38. Open the camps! Fire up the ovens!

Are you sure you're on the right website? Maybe there's a genocide underground you'd be more comfortable at.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

45. Let's see....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

Christians 79.8%

No religion/atheist/agnostic 15.0%

So the non theists are outnumbered by more than 5 to 1.

I wonder who is going to rounding up whom?

[spoony]

48. Who? The most motivated, apparently.

"Religionists and spiritists must be fought and driven from our midst."

Sounds like an eager worker, don't you think?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

51. I can provide endless quotes from theists saying much the same thing

About non theists..

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
--Randall Terry, The News Sentinel, (Ft. Wayne, IN.), 8/16/93

"We are to make Bible-obeying disciples of anybody that gets in our way."
--Jay Grimstead, February 1987

"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol."
--Rev. Joseph Morecraft, Chalcedon Presbyterian Church, "Biblical Role of Civil Government" speech given 8/31/93 at Biblical Worldview and Christian Education Conference

"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil."
--Gary Potter, president of Catholics for Christian Political Action

"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant--baptism and holy communion--must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel."
-- Gary North - Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism, Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989, p. 87

"Most politically active Christians don't want equal time with homosexuals, abortionists, animal worshipping pagans, witches, radical feminists and pornographers. We want them silenced and mercifully disciplined according to the word of God."
--Jay Rogers reviewing Ralph Reed's Politically Incorrect in "Chalcedon Report," 2/95

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--President George Bush, August 27, 1988

"So let us be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will be get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God."
--Gary North, "The Intellectual Schizophrenia of the New Christian Right" in Christianity and Civilization: The Failure of the American Baptist Culture, No. 1 (Spring, 1982), p. 25

"The judges need to be intimidated, they need to uphold the Constitution. If they don't behave, we're going to go after them in a big way."
--House Majority Whip Rep. Tom DeLay, The Washington Post


"A religion that doesn't discriminate wouldn't exist, because it wouldn't stand for anything."
--Janet Parshall, Family Research Council's "Washington Watch Radio Commentary," Sept. 1, 2000 - Comments about a church firing a lesbian worker

"There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The 'Negroes' of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours."
--Pat Buchanan, "Right from the Beginning," (his 1988 autobiography), p. 131 - Commenting on race relations in the 1940s and 1950s

"The Church has through the centuries, understood that ideas are really more dangerous than other weapons. Their use should be restricted."
--Francis J. Lally, American Roman Catholic Monsignor, Mike Wallace Interview, Fund for the Republic, 1958]


"Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it. ... Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory."
--Rev. Jimmy Swaggart


"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed."
--Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, speaking of doctors who perform abortions, in an address to the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance, 8/08/95



If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell

The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, blaming civil libertarians for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001

I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, America Can Be Saved, 1979 pp. 52-53

AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.
-- Jerry Falwell

There is no separation of church and state. Modern US Supreme Courts have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the churches by misinterpreting what the Founders had in mind in the First Amendment to the Constitution.
-- Jerry Falwell

But these things speak evil of those things, verse 10 which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Look at the Metropolitan Community Church today, the gay church, almost accepted into the World Council of Churches. Almost, the vote was against them. But they will try again and again until they get in, and the tragedy is that they would get one vote. Because they are spoken of here in Jude as being brute beasts, that is going to the baser lust of the flesh to live immorally, and so Jude describes this as apostasy. But thank God this vile and satanic system will one day be utterly annihilated and there'll be a celebration in heaven.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, "Old Time Gospel Hour" broadcast, March 11, 1984,

We're fighting against humanism, we're fighting against liberalism ... we are fighting against all the systems of Satan that are destroying our nation today ... our battle is with Satan himself.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell

AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell

I am such a strong admirer and supporter of George W. Bush that if he suggested eliminating the income tax or doubling it, I would vote yes on first blush.
Jerry Falwell

I believe that global warming is a myth. And so, therefore, I have no conscience problems at all and I'm going to buy a Suburban next time.
Jerry Falwell

[spoony]

54. Whilst all ugly, one a few of them are relevant

And as I condemn them, why isn't there a rush of people condemning the mentally unbalanced words of the poster above? Is one call to annihilation better than another?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

56. Only a few?

Read 'em again.

I can come up with waaaay more if you need me to really rub it in.

So, who is motivated to send whom to the ovens, eh?

I think the poster you are referring to is over the top, but I also understand why people become that way. A lot of what goes on in fundie households would absolutely be considered child abuse if it were done by anyone other than conservative Christians.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

52. One final point..

The denizens of Frei Republik are Christians, each and every one.

No atheists allowed.

[Skittles]

24. no

calling me, showing up at my door, mailing me religious crap is, along with their trying to push their sanctimonious garbage into law

[smirkymonkey]

25. Believe it or not, there are still some countries where most people

are athiests and where religious people are merely tolerated (many of the Scandinavian countries, Czech Republic, many of the former SSRs and Eastern European countries, etc.)

I'll believe in God when he makes me a naturalized citizen of one of them.

In fact, I'm going to the Czech Republic in a month. I have 10 days to find a job or a husband. I've lost hope that things will ever get any better over here.

[Lars39]

9. Doesn't mean the religious get to ride roughshod over the non-religious.

[Shine]

12. Personally, I see a distinction between "spirituality" and "religion"

"religion", to me, implies some sort of set dogma, or specific way of thinking about God. It's very nature seems to serve only to separate.

"Spirituality", on the other hand, to me anyway, is about seeing how we are all connected.

[Maestro]

16. Yes, I do too.

Most of the media persons that pass themselves off as "religious" people, and I include politicians, are anything but spiritual. Truly spiritual people to me are those that like you say feel connected to what they believe almost at a mystical level. Religious nutjobs, islamofascists to hyper christian freaks, feel the need to shove religion in people's faces whereas truly spiritual people promote their beliefs by actions like Mother Theresa for example.

The people that pushed through this Religious Freedom Anti-Discriminatory Act feel the need to portray themselves as the victim instead of just promoting what is good for mankind and the like.

[Shine]

21. What do you think of all the bashing MT is getting lately?

I'm not as convinced as others seem to be that she was so terrible. I was interested, though, in the release of her diaries, showing her deep crisis of faith. Hmmm...

:hi: Maestro! :pals:

[SoonerPride]

17. I am opposed to it

It is akin to believing the Earth is flat.

It is ignorance and should be wiped from existence.

Ghosts, spirits, goblins, demons, angels, Gods, all of it is sheer and utter nonsense.

Tolerating it is tolerating people who want to use leeches to heal the sick.

"Spirituality" and religions of all persuasions are a cancer upon humanity.

[Maestro]

18. Believe me

when I think about how much intolerance, instransigence, ignorance and bigotry have been promoted by so called religious people over the past 2000 years plus all the blood spilled in needless wars over religion I am inclined to agree with you. However, if people want to believe and think a certain way, so be it. I just oppose those people trying to force others to think that way. Since I am in education, I have huge problem with that being brought into schools which is what this new law does.

[SoonerPride]

19. I use to be less militant on it

Until I realized that I let them believe that I was a sinner for being gay, that I needed their help, etc.

Their belief systems inherently leads them to force their viewpoints on everyone else. It is their Divine Right. Doesn't matter if Christian, or Muslim, or Jew. They all know that THEY alone are right and everyone else is wrong.

Thus, spirituality and religions of all types need to be stamped out.

They are not content to "live and let live" so I can't be that magnanimous either. My "letting them be" will lead them to gain enough power to round me up, put me in a cage, then gas me to death.

Religion in all guises is a cancer and must be fought and driven off the planet.

Man is no longer afraid of the dark. Belief in Mysterious Spirits are the last vesitiges of our pre-historic ancestors. It is time to put away childish things. Like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, Gods and angels are childish security blankets.

It is time the human race grew up and put those dolls away.

[Maestro]

31. The polemic issue of homosexuality is one of those

issues that really forced me to look at what the Bible says and then the realities. My conclusion is that the certain writers of the Bible did have problems with homosexuals, but since I do not believe the Bible to be the divine word that is just a group of writers' opinion on the subject. The New Testament and Jesus specifically preached more along the lines of tolerance for all. I have known jerk gays, jerk heteros, jerk bisexual people, but I have also known some wonderful people of all types of sexual orientation and currently two of my wife's and my best friends is a gay couple. I'd leave my kids with them any day. They are very good people and ironically devout Christians. They attend a gay church here in Dallas. They joke with me that I support and fight for gay rights more than they do. Anyhow, you might like reading something I posted almost two years ago.

This was in response to a freeper type person at a church I used to attend. The text of his email to a church group is first. He wrote it because the pastor and simply written a brief email asking for prayers of calm while the 2004 elections were being stolen by *. My response follows.

[Mythsaje]

29. That attitude bugs me as much as the fundies.

I know what side I'd fight for--the side that allows ALL people to believe what they will, even if I don't agree with it.

And that's from someone who thinks revealed religion is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated against the human race.

[EFerrari]

22. Why do children need to express religious viewpoints at school?

I thought that was what churches and temples were for.

We're screwn, Maestro.

[Maestro]

26. Exactly!

There is place for religion teaching. It's in the churches, temples and synagogues, not public schools.

[EFerrari]

27. Will atheists and agnostics get equal opportunity to express their

belief or support for peace, gay marriage, stem cell research, women's choice?

If not, this isn't a law that enables "freedom" of expression. It's just one more step down the fascist road.

[Maestro]

32. That is why I think

as do some others that the law was purposefully so confrontationally as to force a SCOTUS showdown so that they rule in their favor.

[EFerrari]

34. Is this something the ACLU might take on?

The threat is real, from what is happening in schools to the proselytizing in military academies.

The Court is stacked now. This isn't going to be an easy fight.

[Maestro]

I hope they do.

But with the SCOTUS, it won't be easy as you say.

[FooFootheSnoo]

30. I read the article and found it confusing and vague

I don't know why fundamentalists are so hell bent on forcing this public prayer issue. Anyone can pray at anytime. Why is it so important to them that every person at every public event know they are praying? That's not what JC says to do:

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[Maestro]

33. They don't read the Bible.

They just believe what they want.

[EFerrari]

35. That's right. So anything can be asserted. n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

43. Because they WANT to show everyone just how "Christian" they are

In direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus, they don't want their faith to be a private relationship between them and God - it is only useful for them if they can parade it out in the open, flaunt it, rub it in everyone's face, and show the whole world just how pious and religious and moral they are. It has nothing, actually, to do with "God" or "Jesus" or anything "spiritual" at all.

[NMMNG]

50. They ignore the parts of the Bible that are inconvenient for them

Like that one, the part that tells them to lead a quiet life, mind your own business, the judge not lest ye be judged part and a whole host of other things. They only pick and choose those parts they want to force on others. It's the Cafeteria Plan.

[judaspriestess]

44. I had prayer in shcool in the mornings in Texas when did it go away?

anyone else have this going on? this was in high school back in the eighties. Every morning the principle or whoever it was would come on the intercom. I always found it odd. I'm ok with a moment of silence. But prayer in public schools is wrong becuase it is obviously for christian prayer which disrespects people of other religions.

I am a very spiritual person NOT a religious person.

[Maestro]

46. He was breaking the law as far as I understand it.

But prayer is done in many smaller districts where nobody complains or there is little oversight by the Texas Education Agency.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Same state where the republicans just chose Duncan Hunter in their straw poll

I refuse to be surprised by the dumb things they do in Texas. And hey I live in Kansas so I feel your pain!