I don't care what Craig did in a restroom or what Vitter did in diapers.

[jobycom]

Seriously, what's the fuss? I don't care how they get their jollies, and I already know they are hypocrites, and I don't particularly have a problem with prostitution or public sex fetishes. Switch genders for me, and it sounds fun, actually. Who cares?

Vitter and Craig are part of the party that supports Bush. They lied us into a war, they slaughtered a million innocent people in Iraq, they want to do worse to Iran, they partied as the city of my ancestors drowned. Geeze, I don't have to make a list, not here at DU. We all know.

I wish Vitter would have spent more on sex, and I'd even pay for someone to blow Craig if he asked. At least it shows that they have some humanity. At least it shows that they have some love of the pleasures of life. For that matter, I wish Craig and Vitter lived in a world where they could enjoy themselves without fear that cops would be out to bust them, or that their voters would be horrified if they knew. I wish they lived in a world more like the one they want than like the one they want to build.

Yeah, hypocrites. Yeah, public place. Yeah, broke the law. Yeah, the children. Yeah, anything we can do to weaken the Republicans is a blow (sorry) to the forces of evil. I know all that, I've been at this a long time.

But I'm more angered and disgusted by what they do when they are NOT seeking sexual jollies. I want to see them defeated because their voters realize they are wrong, not because their voters hate gays or are shocked by sex. If Craig leaves because he's gay, that helps the other side more than it helps us.

[PDJane]

1. Thank you. Well said and well done. eom.

[Patsy Stone]

2. All of this

and all of it contributes to their voters realizing they were wrong. Every day, in every way. He's down to the nut jobs and the inbred at this point, you will never change their minds, because they have none.

[jobycom]

6. I doubt it.

The voters don't change their minds about right and wrong, they just change their minds about Vitter and Craig. Odds are that next time they'll go for someone more radical, just to avoid the possibility of repeating.

[Sparkly]

12. But evidently the scandals did indeed turn voters off from the GOP in 2006

Both corruption and the Mark Foley scandal... The Iraq war was only part of it. And they're all examples of Republican fakery and untrustworthiness.

[Patsy Stone]

22. The middle of the country is not radically neo-con.

I don't mean the geographic middle, I mean middle-of-the-road people. Just because the morons for Bush got so much airtime (Karl? Was that you?), don't think they are the norm. People (regular, non-DU, non-FreeRepublic people) are not stupid, and most have seen enough by now that they have had it with all of them.

[BlackHawk706867]

3. Well then you might want to think about the fact that these people are...

elected officials by the people and for the people.... thus our expectations are that live up to a standard that is beyond what they are currently demonstrating. I don't think that any of us have a problem with them being gay (at least I certainly don't) but I do have a problem with them being hypocritical.

ww

[Rosa Luxemburg]

9. what he did was inappropriate for his position in office

we fire teachers for this very reason when they take advantage of students. He was taking advantage and thought he couldn't be caught.

Any politician whether it is Democrat, Green Republican or whatever should not behave in this way as they are supposed to represent the people.

[jobycom]

13. I really don't care.

I don't care what they do outside of Congress. I can't even imagine caring. I'm supposed to feel better about someone who supported the slaughter of a million innocent people because he behaves in bathrooms? I just can't.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. And furthermore, having sex with complete strangers in bathrooms and peeping into stalls......

is illegal and revolting.

And that applies to straights, gays, or anything.

[Fresh_Start]

4. I agree but I can take satisfaction in the hypocrites on display

in fact I welcome it.

I don't care if their voters reject them for the right reason, I just need their voters to reject for whatever reason.

I'm not expecting to see enlightened voters instantly....I'm hoping I see irate voters.

[Blashyrkh]

5. Whatever.

If you walk into a public restroom with the intent of engaging in a sex act you are a sick motherfucker. I don't care with who or for what purpose.

And there is a huge difference between being hit on whilst standing at a bar in a nightclub and being hit on whilst in the process of taking a shit in a locked cubicle.

[astroBspacedog]

23. I Agree

If I'm to use a public rest room I'd rather not have to ward off the person (in the next stall) that wants to play footsy, --- especially if he's a Republican senator !!

[Olney Blue]

7. Craig says he is not gay, and has never been gay.

[Fearless]

29. Yes and he adverts his eyes as he says it.

Not like it matters though. Picking up anyone in the bathroom is just nasty. Especially, if not only, because it was unwanted.

[jobycom]

30. Fine by me. The issue isn't really whether he defines himself as gay

but that the public will perceive his act as gay. So it's a gay issue, even if he isn't.

[rhett o rick]

8. I understand how you feel. I feel the same disgust. However, we need

to convince the general public that the Republican Party is based completely on lies. I think it hits home more when related to sex. Sorry to say but the general public is more disgusted with sexual mis-encounters than burning innocent women and children to death with phosphorous bombs.

[jobycom]

That's destroying the village to save it.

What are we fighting for? To win? Or is there something we are trying to win? I don't see what we think we are accomplishing with this. What if we do convince the general public that the Republicans are bad because of sexual incidents like this? Do we then lose the argument when our folk get caught doing the same thing?

If we can't fight on the issues, we won't win on the issues. And I don't see the point in winning on anything else, because we won't have changed anything.

[rhett o rick]

28. I know where you are going and i basically agree, but.... There is a difference

We are not tearing down this idiot because he failed or strayed or made a mistake. He is a hypocrite to the greatest degree as are many of his fellow republicans. We are trying to open the eyes of the descent republicans and tell them that they have been duped. They aren't even paying attention to the real issues but listening to the hypocrites like Senator Craig.

[jobycom]

31. You've heard the old saying that Democrats lose because we nuance our message too much?

The average Bush voter isn't going to understand the difference, they are just going to despise him because he tried to pick up a man.

[rhett o rick]

42. Our message isn't to the gullible Bush voters. We need the average public,

that mite vote either way, to understand that most, if not all, republicans lie about everything. Craig is a great example. Don't care if he is gay, he is a sleazy, hypocrite and he is a republican.

I am sorry I don't know what "nuancing" our message means, but my message is short and sweet. Republicans lie about everything.

[Sparkly]

10. I think it's about shattering that whole myth of the Family Values Moral Majority Godly Republicans

And piece by piece, having that dismantled goes a long way. It informs voters that many Republicans are phony and can't be trusted or believed.

[Richardo]

11. K&R.

:patriot:

[uppityperson]

14. k&r

[WillyT]

15. I Hear Ya... But Unless You Have An Orbiting Satellite With 'Smart Ray'...

This may be the only thing that will pry dumbshit America away for voting for these frauds.

I've never been for re-education camps, but... woo boy...

Democracy to the lowest common denominator.

Gawd i hate math.

:evilgrin:

[jobycom]

24. They'll just vote for another fraud.

At best this just turns them against Vitter and Craig. At worst, it reinforces the Republican message, so they'll vote for someone worse.

[Gregorian]

16. Right. It's not what Gannon was doing in the WH. It's the coverup.

Sorry, I just can't stop thinking about Gannon all of a sudden.

And I also don't care what people do with each other, or to themselves. But these people meddle in OUR lives. And that's why this becomes an issue. But I get your point. Their voters need to realize what's going on.

[MagsDem]

17. Slight disagreement

The rank hypocrisy displayed by all these republicans let's voters that might have otherwise voted for them realize that they have been played by these fools. If the majority of voters voted FOR their own self interest instead of against them because they fall for this GOP - party of "moral values" baloney the republicans wouldn't stand a chance of ever having a majority in this country.

Sure the rich people will always vote for the party that promises lower taxes for the rich (republicans), but most of us are not rich. Most voters are poor or middle class, and they get screwed by the republicans with almost every law republicans advance. But they vote for them anyway, because "moral values" trump their economic interest. When they finally figure out that republican politicians are mostly amoral hypocrites (and I mean corrupt crooks, liars, lawbreakers, hypocrites -- not suggesting being gay is immoral) they will have no more reason to vote against their economic self interests.

As for Craig leaving because he is gay, ain't gonna happen. He might be forced out by rethugs trying to keep playing the "party of moral values" BS on the voters, but I just don't think that dog is gonna hunt anymore for them.

[wuushew]

18. I care

I want that veto proof majority to shove down the current or future POTUS's throat on an Iraq withdrawl ASAP. :nuke:

[lonestarnot]

20. That would be the only reason I would give one fart about it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. You just don't get it, do you?

These people have run on the family values ticket. They've trashed and destroyed others by attacking them for "immorality." They've gotten elected for claiming to have higher moral ground than Democrats. They've waved their heterosexual, church-going, anti-abortion flag, and brought this country to its knees. They've then destroyed middle class jobs, encarcerated the poor more than ever, destroyed freedoms, left us with even less healthcare than before, and emptied our coffers

Well, sorry if it bothers you. I intend on pointing out what a bunch of AMORAL freaks they are by using their own family values definition against them until it's quite clear what a hypocritical bunch of monsters these Republicans are.

The Republicans are still defending them, because when all is said and done, it was never their family values definition they believed in. They just believed in fascism and used the family values label to promote it to the uneducated. I don't intend to join them defending these freaks.

[jobycom]

27. Yeah, I get that, which is why I included it in that post I wrote. Here's what you don't get.

Every time you condemn a Republican for violating one of their own issues, you've just reinforced that issue to the voters, and the next Republican will be further to the right on it. People don't change their minds about something they hate just because they've seen it happen. It only makes them hate the thing even more. I work with a group of Republicans who voted for Clinton in 92. Good swing voters. They were all over this Craig thing today. Their take was "Just goes to show you why homosexuality is so bad."

When we jump on the issue, act outraged, and try to drive Craig from office, no one hears "We hate the hypocrisy." All they hear is that we are disgusted, too. We lose.

[Bake]

40. I gotta disagree with you.

It is precisely because they have claimed to have the monopoly on morality, because they defame us as the "godless" and "immoral" party that this scandals stains the entire party. Repubs for decades now have sold the bill of goods that they are the party of morality and godliness - not just individuals like Vitter and Craig, although they're fine examples - and the public, by and large, has bought it hook, line and sinker.

When there is a public fall from grace like Craig's, it points out that the GOP's claim to the monoploy on morality is bullshit. If it were just Craig alone, they could say yeah, it's just one bad apple. But when it's Craig, and Vitter, and Foley, and Cunningham, etc. etc. ad infinitum -- then it becomes a pervasive pattern that stains the entire GOP.

Don't think that people haven't noticed that every time there's one of these scandals, it's a GOPer. They notice.

Bake

[Sarah Ibarruri]

43. We Democrats have been "nice" for decades and what has it gotten us?

REPUBLICANS IN OFFICE. NAFTA. GATT. NO JOBS. A WAR. GROWING POVERTY. THE WIDEST DIVIDE BETWEEN THE RICH AND THE POOR SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

And you want ME to keep being nice to them? OH MY GOD. Well hear this:

You just keep on keeping on with the "nice" thing. Me? I'm through with being nice to Repukes. I will never be nice to them again.

[BootinUp]

25. But in the political scheme of things, unfortunately

this is what matters, and one or two weeks from now it will be like this:

ok enough distraction, back to building bombs.

[Jed Dilligan]

26. If you ever had to work in an office

where the only nearby lavatory had a tearoom scene, you would probably get fed up with it pretty quickly. I did.

I realize what you're saying (exploiting this news feeds America's puritanical stupidity which we should ultimately be fighting against) but I do like bathrooms to be bathrooms.

[book_worm]

32. Agreed. Take it elsewhere.

I know if I was in a stall and someone was peering in thru the crack at me and then gets in the stall next to me and tries to play footsie, I'd bang down on that foot as hard as I could with my foot.

[mike_c]

33. K&R-- I feel exactly the same way-- their lives are tawdry...

...but that's not news, nor is it anything that concerns me. Obsession with the sex lives of others is just plain weird.

[Johonny]

34. IDK

This is more than Sex jollies. There is something deeply ill with a person that shows so much outward hatred toward the very person he actually is in private.

[Toasterlad]

35. The Fuss IS the Hypocrisy

Well, of course you want Vitter and Craig and their ilk defeated because they're wrong. So say we all. But what they're doing when they're NOT seeking sexual jollies is railing against the things they're doing WHILE seeking sexual jollies. I'd say that's cause for alarm in an elected official, and we have every right to call them on it and use it as an excuse to remove them from office.

And sorry, I don't believe it helps the other side more if Craig leaves because he's gay. When Craig gets exposed for being a lying hypocrite, it makes everyone else out there spouting the same bigoted nonsense that much more suspect, not to mention ridiculous. That HELPS us, immeasurably. As I've said often, I'm against outing under any circumstances EXCEPT in the case of politicians who advance an anti-gay agenda. Every last one of those assholes needs to be dragged screaming out of the closet and staked through the heart in a sunny town square.

[redqueen]

36. we're angered and disgusted, sure...

but making sure these hypocrites are portrayed as accurately as possible helps to keep republican voters sitting on their hands

[Ian_rd]

37. I don't care either, but their private lives are fair game.

Why? Because they want to make OUR private lives the business of the government and their dreams of a Saudi Arabian style morality police force. And it turns out that an effective way to stymie such goals is to parade their embarrassing sexual appetites for all the public to see, just as they converted the breadth of cable news into a 24/7 year-long coverage of Clinton's affair with Monica.

Haggard buying meth and sex from a gay prostitute? Vitter in daipers? Foley having chat sex with pages? Craig cruising public restrooms? You can't make this shit up. And THESE are the guys who want to be our Morality Police? I say we put their credentials on the news!

[Skidmore]

38. I think a lot of these people get their "jollies" on wielding power.

They should be called on their hypocrisy though because they are in the position of making the laws and setting the punishment for others who engage in the same behavior. Now if they believe it to be their mission in life to punish others for the same behavior, then they should not be allowed to be above the law itself. That is what this is all about. Equality and justice under the law.

Most pointedly, this should apply to * and Cheney too. If I killed someone and lied about it, I'd be on death row or in on a life sentence by now. If I bilked millions out of my fellow Iowans, I'd be in prison on a felony for many years.

The law needs to apply to elected officials as well. We do not have kings or nobility in this nation. We have only let the media create a pseudonobility and these people need to be brought down abruptly and without ceremony.

[beastieboy]

39. The reason they had the power to take us to war is precisely because of these issues.

They use fear and hate of gays as one of their so-called family values issues, in order to rile up the right wing religious freaks who have supported them. It does matter because if we burst the bubble that republicans are the virtuous candidates, then they lose power.

[jobycom]

41. Exactly. And what we are doing now is confirming their criteria.

We are raising a fuss about exactly what they raise a fuss about, which means that voters will continue to vote for these issues rather than for relevant issues. The only way we gain from that is by adopting their same beliefs. If we become the party of homophobes, we win their vote. Otherwise, they will just vote for other Republicans.

We don't win this way, we lose everything.

[beastieboy]

44. If we fail to point out their hypocricy, then they just dismiss it as a "bad apple".

They claim that being gay is immoral and that because democrats aupport gay rights, the democratic party is immoral. If gays and sex can be taken off the table because of their hypocricy, then we get an advantage with REAL issues.