Here's why we need Hate Crimes Legislation:

[bicentennial_baby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwji7g_VK0U

Please watch. :)

[sailor65]

1. What we need

is stronger and equal punishment for ALL violent crime, not just certain categories.

[Bluebear]

4. Your thought process really is so flawed -------

Your thought process really is so flawed that you could never really have a meaningful philosophical or political conversation with one of us. - sailor65

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1683744#1683783

[sailor65]

16. Thanks

for the timing. I had managed to lose that thread. Now I can get back in......

[Toasterlad]

19. Bluebear...You Rock INCESSANTLY.

:toast:

[FreeState]

11. Not all hate crimes are violent crimes

just like all violent crimes are not equal.

[sailor65]

13. Unequal in what way?

How can we say crime against one human being is more or less abhorrent than crime against another? If Joe is killed for the 5 bucks in his pocket, is his death less tragic than John's, who was killed because he was gay?

The video seemed focused on violent crime, so that's why I used it as my example.

[Bluebear]

15. Because hate crimes terrorize a whole community, not just the victim

[sailor65]

21. I do see your point,

but I disagree in that I still think all violent crime terrorizes and reduces all. Although I do think that what you're calling Hate Crime specifically tends to be premeditated more often that other crimes, and therefore by default should and would carry stiffer penalties. I just hate the idea that we would value one human's life more or less than another.

[JackBeck]

22. Look up "overkill", then get back to us.

[JackBeck]

44. Why won't you address this post?

How would you address overkill in the LGBT community?

[sailor65]

49. I'm sorry,

I thought you were being sarcastic with the "Overkill" thing, about my rambling on.

I'm not part of that community, so I don't understand the "Overkill" reference in that context. Do you mean an excess of offenses committed against them, or something like that? Do you literally mean a great many killed?

[JackBeck]

50. If you looked up overkill you'd know what I meant.

Why are LGBT community members subjected to the killing they receive?

[sailor65]

56. The literal meaning of overkill

I already knew, which I didn't directly connect with your point, but I get you now.

farther up (Or down) in this thread I conceded that my angle was focusing more on the individual and that I needed to take a look at the wider view to get the other posters' points about a community feeling targeted.

Members of the LGBT community, when they suffer tragic violence, very likely suffer it for who they are. I do understand that. the original point I made (And not so well) was from the view of crimes against individuals, not taking into account specific groups, because I really am sickened in a big way by all of it. In reading all of these posts, I can see why many are feeling like they are specifically vulnerable BECAUSE of their group.

The irony is that all of us are saying we want it all to stop, or at least be dealt with more strongly. We were just coming at it from different angles, and I did a somewhat poor job laying out my position. I want the monsters stopped just as much as you do.

[JackBeck]

57. In your own words:

"What we need is stronger and equal punishment for ALL violent crime, not just certain categories."

We are not a "certain category". The LGBT community isn't protected under these current laws. Like I said, just continuing the fight to be added. And yet get resistance at an allegedly progressive message board, which doesn't stop me from asking IRL.

This is getting old.

[FreeState]

24. Whos life are we valuing more?

Come on, it adds sexual orientation to the list (you know that thing we ALL have).

If a gay guy kills a straight man because he is straight he would have the exact same rights and federal help as anyone else attacked under the proposed law.

[JackBeck]

27. Plus, it would make it a Federal crime, as well, giving our community equal footing

In Hate Crime laws that have existed since the 1960's.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

31. In theory you are correct

But I've actually seen people argue here that it can't and shouldn't apply because no one gay individual could ever really terrorize the straight community. Legally, that doesn't hold water. But emotionally, which is where so much of this gets played out........

When the test case comes......you can bet it won't be so cut and dried as you state here.

[JackBeck]

36. Since I'm not responsible for those remarks

I will say that once the LGBT community gains the political and social power to ever be in a position to intimidate a community in such a way, I will support any use of Hate Crime laws being used in the same way to prosecute any LGBT person that would ever commit, in theory, such a crime.

But until then, how about you join your fellow progressives in fighting for equality for the LGBT community in adding us to the existing Hate Crimes legislation? Deal?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

39. I support expanding the hate crimes bill.

If you kill someone based on a hate of their race, religion or sexual orientation, no matter what it may be, you should be charged with a hate crime. Period.

So I'd say we agree.

[JackBeck]

40. Great. But since the LGBT community isn't protected by Hate Crimes legislation

at least I know I can tun to you for support in the coming months when this gets debated, yet again, in Congress.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

41. Oh, totally

Should have been done long ago.

[Toasterlad]

26. That Is Not What It's About.

It's not about "one life is more valuable than another". It is about the impact of the crime. As Bluebear said, hate crimes terrorize a specific group of people. When someone is murdered in a robbery, people in the community don't feel like any more of a target than anyone else. Anyone could be robbed. But when someone is killed because they are gay, every gay person in the surrounding area feels like a target BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY ARE. Hate Crimes terrorize minorities in a way that other crimes do not, and they need to be identified and tried as what they are: attacks on a community.

[sailor65]

32. Your point is well made

and I do see where you're coming from. Although we don't agree completely, I will concede the logic about a certain community reacting to a certain crime, although I still don't know that the community is necessarily better served with new legislation. Like my original post said, I think as a society we are still too tolerant of ALL crime.

[Toasterlad]

34. And I Agree With Your Last Statement.

Actually, to me, the arguable detterent value of hate crimes is not the most compelling reason. The reason I'm so passionate about this coverage is that it makes the LGBT community equal on a federal level to the other, recognized minorites. It's one more rung on the ladder to true equality, and that's precisely why Bush and the rest of the repubs are against it. Kind of hard to justify not letting gay folks get married, or have job security, or rights against bigoted landlords and real estate companies when you've said that they're as deserving of protection as all those other minorities who have all those things.

[sailor65]

38. No doubt about it

they certainly need and deserve the protection, especially in the non-physical crime walks of life you mentioned (Landlords, etc.). And I had to back up a step and see the big picture about groups vs individuals in the crime arena. Thanks for the clarity.

I'll tell you, I've been listening and watching news here in the Detroit area, and it seems like there is just more and more, every day, to feel pain over. Absolutely despicable people doing despicable things to all sorts, Women, Children, it doesn't seem to matter. I guess the last two weeks of it has got me sensitized too much and blocked out the "Community" view of it all.

And it seems more every day as if society simply looks away more and more.

[Toasterlad]

35. Dupe. n/t

[uppityperson]

42. It has nothing to do with value of life but severity of the crime.

What about crimes against children or the elderly? Should they carry stiffer penalties? I think so and NOT because 1 life has more value than anothers. Premeditation deserves more of a penalty, as does hate crimes. It has nothing to do with value of life but severity of the crime.

[iverglas]

43. "I just hate the idea that we would value one human's life more or less than another."

Me, I just hate fallacious argument being used to advance nasty ideas.

The only place that the idea you refer to exists is in the mind of the straw personage you have erected and set about knocking over.


Although I do think that what you're calling Hate Crime specifically tends to be premeditated more often that other crimes, and therefore by default should and would carry stiffer penalties.

You might be on the right track here, though.

One purpose of sentencing is general deterrence: sentences are imposed in order to deter third parties from doing what the offender in question did.

When a crime is ordinarily committed in a premeditated manner, it is very arguable that it is more amenable to general deterrence than a crime that is ordinarily committed impulsively.

(This is one reason that the death penalty is ineffective at deterring homicides; most murders are committed impulsively, if really intentionally all.)

Hate crimes are often committed by two or more people acting in concert. This, again, suggests planning.

Hate crimes generally involve selecting a target for the crime. Obviously, so do many other crimes of violence, for example. But where the victim is not a person known to the offender(s), the victim of a random crime of violence is just in the wrong place at the wrong time; the victim of a hate crime is selected for a reason having to do with who s/he is, even if s/he is personally unknown to the offender(s).

Ditto for hate crimes that are property crimes. Throwing a bottle at a store window is an entirely different act from spraypainting words or symbols on the property of a religious or cultural group. People seldom get together and agree to go throw bottles at Store X, and then make the necessary arrangements to acquire bottles and transport themselves to Store X. People who want to express hatred for a religious or cultural group - the purpose of doing this being rather obviously to intimidate members of the group - ordinarily do do those things.

So hate crimes may be regarded as particularly amenable to general deterrence, in the form of harsher sentences than crimes that look alike on the surface but share no characteristics beyond that superficial similarity.

This has nothing to do with valuing anyone's life or limb or security or property any more than anyone else's.

In point of fact, if a society does not take steps to deter the commission of crimes that members of particular groups are especially and uniquely vulnerable to, it is pretty clearly saying that it values those people's life and limb and security and property less than it values others'.

And somehow, I think you know all this already.

[knight_of_the_star]

59. I'll have to disagree with that

Some violent crimes are worse than others, there's a reason that armed robbery is punished less harshly than murder.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

23. Here:

If Joe is killed for the five bucks in his pocket, odds are he'd be killed for $1, $10, $20, or $1,000.

In this case, Joe was not selected for some innate characteristic, but rather his possessions -- Joe was not targeted for who he is, but what he owns. And if some unlucky bystander were to walk by, odds are they'd be killed too, because the thief/murderer would know the bystander has at least some money.

In other words, the killer doesn't use discretion. His victims could literally be anybody because of what he is after -- money.

If someone were to be killed for being gay (or perceived as such), they are killed because of some innate characteristic that is part of their humanity. And when a homophobic killer does such a thing (or a racist killer, to use another example), he is not only killing someone who is a member of a group he dislikes, he is also threatening anyone else who shares those same immutable characteristics. His potential victims are narrowed to a smaller, specific group of people who know they are at a much higher risk in this type of situation.

Attaching an anti-GLBT statute to such a crime not only delivers a harsher punishment to the criminal, it also sends a message the same way he wanted to send a message -- except in the *opposite* direction -- that those who prey on a specific group of people will be punished severely.

[bicentennial_baby]

25. Beautifully said, my friend!!

:applause:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

28. Thanks!

My pleasure. :hi:

[nashville_brook]

45. i think *non-violent* hate crime is the only proper place for penalty enhancement

and glbt should have status with this regard. for instance, spray-painting slurs on someone's door should have an enhanced penalty as opposed to vandalism devoid of threatening content.

otherwise, we get into the realm of thought crime.

for instance, if i get into a fist fight with a Republican and his daddy's lawyer digs up my posts on DU, is my penalty going to be enhanced because of my writing against Republicans?

[JackBeck]

47. There's nothing about "enhancement".

It's all about inclusion.

[nashville_brook]

54. LGBT needs inclusion as long as we have hate crime legislation -- for sure

i think the crimes committed against the LGBT community are special in nature. thing is, i don't like the idea of there being different degrees of murder. like, we already have enhanced penalty for murdering a pregnant woman -- as if women who aren't carrying a child are less important. it's problematic.

[JackBeck]

55. We've had Hate Crimes legislation since the 1960's.

Where we disagree is how you think killing an LGBT person doesn't send a message to a larger community.

I'd like to know why you think this way. Murdering a pregnant woman doesn't instill a general sense of fear that all pregnant women in that community are about to die. Whereas killing an LGBT individual makes them cautious and aware, since they fear for their safety.

[nashville_brook]

62. actually, murdering a woman DOES send that message as we see with nearly every serial killer

we're apparently like Lays potato chips -- can't kill just one. there's definitely a message sent -- prolly best seen on college campuses where stalking/rape/assault are reported with an eye toward public safety.

thinking back to college, it was often the same social group assaulting women as were assaulting the LGBT community -- the white guys of entitlement. if their thoughts were to be visible they'd look something like: "im gonna fuck that and kill that." luckily they drink too much to do much of either on any given night.

[JackBeck]

12. What we need is to add the LGBT community to the Hate Crimes legislation that already exists. n/t

[Starbucks Anarchist]

2. K&R.

[bicentennial_baby]

3. Thank you friend...

:hug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

5. ...

:hug:

[PDJane]

6. another kick and recommend..........

because I was friends with a statistic. Because I have known and loved a couple of very marginal folks. Because civilized people accept the differences of others.

[Bluebear]

8. "Because civilized people accept the differences of others."

Thank you and all the best to you.

[bicentennial_baby]

9. ...

:hug:

[rurallib]

7. My 2 cents

These crimes are almost always coupled with terrorism. I wish the politicians would change the focus to the terrorism aspects and drop the 'hate crime'. 'Hate' is a feeling and I believe hard to prove. Terrorism is an act and I think much easier to pinpoint (words, deeds)
Heard that a whlie back on Thom Hartmann. I think if it were changed to crime w/terrorism it would pass much easier and get more convictions.
Thanks for the video. An eye opener.

[bicentennial_baby]

10. I see what you mean...

:pals: And, yes, this video is a real eye opener. Indeed. :(

[rurallib]

14. Credit to Thom Hartmann - man he is good

Hope you listen to him?

[sniffa]

17. k&r

and thanks for making me cry. :cry:

and thank you for reinforcing my desire to start a "gay bashing" gang. :mad:

[bicentennial_baby]

53. i love you

:hug:

[Toasterlad]

18. Holy Shit.

I'm bawling.

To hate-crime bill naysayers:

There are already federal hate crime laws in place that protect virtually every minority except the LGBT community and the disabled. Your objection to existing legislation is NOT valid grounds to deny the rest of us this protection. If you are opposed to hate crime legislation that includes the LGBT community and the disabled, you are an enemy of these communities.

The only reason to deny us equal coverage is if you do not feel we are equal. Deal with it. And get over yourself.

[bicentennial_baby]

20. ...

:hug: And you are 100% correct.

[Sapphocrat]

29. Thank you so much, darlin'.

Not because it's my video, but because I so want the message to get out there.

I'd also suggest to folks to take the time to read the viewer comments. The most recent two at the moment are from two young men half a world away from one another, who were both bashed to within an inch of their lives; one, an Englishman, spent nine days in a coma; the other was shot and stabbed in Mississippi. Which only drives home the horrible universality of the hate. :cry:

I feel so very helpless in the face of it -- until I see it's touched another person, and then I think: If only one more person gets it, whether it's through my feeble efforts, or through these guys courageous enough to tell their stories, or through Alaina Alexander's crew recutting my vid -- it doesn't matter, as long as the message gets out there.

Thanks for bringing this back up, baby. :hug:

[bicentennial_baby]

30. Yes, read the comments!!

:bounce:

I agree, on all points. And I'll always bring this up. This video changed my perspective forever, and I hope it does the same to others. :hug:

:loveya:

[sniffa]

33. this kiLLs me

and it wiLL haunt me tiLL the day i die.

i don't know what to do besides what i am doing (and i know that's a nice push, but i'd Like to do more).

:sigh:

ps: i was beaten to an inch of my Life once, but it wasn't because of my sexuaLity. i survived, and it made me stronger. without going into detaiLs, i have a different outLook on Life: i now know i'm gonna die if it's my time, and it's quite freeing.

[Madspirit]

37. k&r...n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

46. This is what a Hate Crime looks like:

Gwen Araujo:

"Araujo, who was going by the name "Lida" at the time <2>, was introduced to a circle of friends whom she met during a chance encounter while walking down a local street. The group of young adults enjoyed passing the evening hours with party activities that included playing dominos and consuming drugs and alcohol at the home of Araujo's to-be assailants. Araujo was reported to have engaged in sexual activities with at least two of the men from the group. A few weeks later, she was invited back to the house where a party was planned. She wore her mother's peasant blouse to the party, although her mother had asked her not to and expressed discomfort with Araujo's appearance. Araujo told her mother that she was just being jealous. This was the last time Sylvia Guerrero saw her child alive.

At the party on (October 3, 2002) it was discovered, by forced inspection (conducted by a young woman at the party), that Araujo had male genitalia. In an explosion of activity, the men that she had had sexual relations with became extremely agitated. Once it was discovered that Araujo was biologically male, Mike Magidson began choking her in the hallway of the house. At this point numerous guests left the residence. Jose Merel and Jaron Nabors remained inside the residence with Mike Magidson. Jason Cazares claimed to go outside at this point; however he did not leave because he had arrived in Mike Magidson's truck. After everyone left, the three assailants continued assaulting Araujo, She was brutaly beat for about 5 hours. Jose Merel struck her over the head with a frying pan and then struck again with a can of tomatoes, causing a gash to her head which bled profusely. Jaron Nabors struck her with a barbell weight. Mike Magidson kneed her in the head against the living room wall, with such force that her head caused an indentation in the plaster wall. After this, Araujo was taken to the garage of the home and strangled with a rope (stories conflict as to whether Mike Magidson or Jaron Nabors strangled the victim). Most accounts have Jose Merel cleaning blood out of the carpet at the time she was strangled. She was then hog-tied, wrapped in a blanket and placed in the bed of a pick-up truck. The three assailants, plus Jason Cazares drove her body to parkland in El Dorado County, California, a wooded area in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada known as Silver Fork, where she was finally buried in a shallow grave. It is not clear at what point during this sequence of events Araujo's death occurred. However, the autopsy showed that she died from strangulation associated with blunt force trauma to the head."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwen_Araujo

[nashville_brook]

48. why isn't rape be considered a hate crime?

just wondering. seems an obvious indicator of hate.

[JackBeck]

52. Rape is horrendous. What does that have to do with overkill?

[bicentennial_baby]

51. Here's what a Hate crime looks like:

Sakia Gunn (May 26, 1987-May 11, 2003) was a 15-year old African American lesbian who was murdered in a hate crime in Newark, New Jersey. On the night of May 11, Gunn was returning from a night out in Greenwich Village, Manhattan with her friends. While waiting for the #1 New Jersey Transit bus at the corner of Broad and Market Streets in downtown Newark, Gunn and her friends were propositioned by two men. When the girls rejected their advances, by declaring themselves to be lesbians, the men attacked them. Gunn fought back, and one of the men, Richard McCullough, stabbed her in the chest. Both men immediately fled the scene in their vehicle. After one of Gunn's friends flagged down a passing driver, she was taken to nearby University Hospital, where she died.<1>

McCullough, who turned himself in to authorities several days later, was arrested in connection with the crime on May 16, 2003.<2> In a plea bargain, the murder charges were dropped and, on March 3, 2005, McCullough pleaded guilty to aggravated manslaughter, aggravated assault, and bias intimidation, claiming, at one point, that Gunn died after she ran into his knife.<3> On April 21, 2005, he was sentenced to 20 years in prison.<4>

The murder set off several protests in working-class Newark, and more than 2,500 people were reported to have attended Gunn's funeral.

In comparison to the 1998 gay-bias murder of Matthew Shepard, Sakia Gunn's murder drew limited media coverage. Using the Lexis-Nexis database, Kim Pearson, a professor at The College of New Jersey found that there were 659 stories in major newspapers about Shepard's murder, compared to only 21 articles about Gunn's murder in the seven month period after their attacks. Pearson also notes that not only were Shepard's attackers tried and convicted during this period, but that it took nearly that long for Gunn's attacker to even be indicted.<5>

Editors of a popular internet journal, The Gully, argued that there were "fundamental errors in the way most journalists reported the brutal May 11 murder of Sakia Gunn." They cite the tendency for reporters to highlight the "scuffle" that occurred between Gunn and her murderer, with the implication being that if Gunn and her friends had not only announced their sexual orientation, the men would have left them alone. The authors of the journal argue that it is "far more likely that the men only propositioned Gunn and her friends because they knew the girls were dykes, and a sexual advance would provoke some kind of exchange." <6>

Gunn's death sparked outrage from the city's gay and lesbian community. The community, in conjunction with GLAAD, rallied the mayor's office. Among the requests of the mayor included the establishment of a gay and lesbian community center, police officers to patrol the Newark Penn Station/Broad Street corridor 24-hours a day, the creation of a LGBT advisory council to the mayor, and that the school board be held accountable for the lack of concern and compassion when dealing with students at Westside High School (which Gunn attended) immediately following the murder. To date, the city has not honored its commitment, which has created some resentment among Newark's gay and lesbian community. The Newark Pride Alliance, an LGBT advocacy group, was founded in the wake of Gunn's murder, and continues to lobby the city administration.

Incidentally, at the corner of Broad and Market Streets where Gunn and her friends were waiting for the bus, stands a police booth that is to be manned 24 hours a day, as was promised by Sharpe James in his 2002 campaign. The fact that there was not a police officer in the booth at that time raised a number of questions among Gunn's family and friends, as well as the Newark community as a whole. If the booth had been manned, Gunn may not have died that night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakia_Gunn

[Behind the Aegis]

58. For those you have issue with GLBT hate crime inclusion or overkill....

MELISSA ETHERIDGE LYRICS

"Scarecrow"

Showers of your crimson blood
Seep into a nation calling up a flood
Of narrow minds who legislate
Thinly veiled intolerance
Bigotry and hate

But they tortured and burned you
They beat you and they tied you
They left you cold and breathing
For love they crucified you

I can't forget hard as I try
This silhouette against the sky

Scarecrow crying
Waiting to die wondering why
Scarecrow trying
Angels will hold carry your soul away

This was our brother
This was our son
This shepherd young and mild
This unassuming one
We all gasp this can't happen here
We're all much too civilized
Where can these monsters hide

But they are knocking on our front door
They're rocking in our cradles
They're preaching in our churches
And eating at our tables

I search my soul
My heart and in my mind
To try and find forgiveness
This is someone child
With pain unreconciled
Filled up with father's hate
Mother's neglect
I can forgive But I will not forget

Scarecrow crying
Waiting to die wondering why
Scarecrow trying
Rising above all in the name of love

From Youtube: A message for those who choose to bash and attack gay people

On Edit: For general support of hate crimes, a song that few have probably heard; Paula Cole's "Hitler's Brothers."

Little boy, tries to hide,
From the fire in his backyard.
Burning cross, white cloth,
It's the second time this year.

Hitler's Brothers are still alive,
They're wearing everyday disguises.

A woman runs, for asylum,
She's the only one of her kind in this neighborhood.
She knows who they were,
They don't believe a word,
The cops just turn their heads to protect their friends.

Hitler's Brothers are still alive,
Their army seems to grow in size,
Hitler's Brothers are on the rise,
They're wearing everyday disguises.
...In camouflage or business suits.

Another man, bound and gagged,
Tied upon the railroad tracks.
At nine pm, the B & M (Boston & Maine)
Rolled across his yellow skin.

Hitler's Brothers are still alive,
Their army seems to grow in size,
Hitler's Brothers are on the rise,
They're wearing everyday disguises.
In camouflage or business suits,
Checkered aprons, combat boots,
Time to let those feelings go,
Hatred only kills your souls

[foreigncorrespondent]

60. K&R

Because the world really needs to learn what we face every single bloody day. (Think I am out in the little hick town I live in?)

[Toasterlad]

61. Kick

:kick:

[JackBeck]

63. Kick. For Tucker Carlson.