Message to anti-Chavez types on DU

[Ken Burch]

I know some of you think you're fighting for "free speech" and things like that, but that's not what this struggle is about.
If you get your way and Chavez is forced out, the poor and the workers in Venezuela would once again lose everything(and this time probably never regain what they'd lost) the "democratic left" parties would in the region would once again go back to imposing all the austerity the Washington Consensus demands, and in the end, Latin America would once again have leaders who look like this:








No matter what you want...that's what you'd get.

[Greyhound]

1. Isn't this exactly what they want? I don't know why, but too many here

seem so sure that they know, better than Venezuelans, what is good for Venezuela.
:kick:

[lvx35]

2. Thanks. That drives me nuts.

From the Iraq debacle, to the vote tampering, we are in no position to go trying to fix anybody else's Country. I have zero doubt that the democratic majority of Venezuelans would agree, just like the democratic majority of Iraqis.

[TahitiNut]

46. But ... that would be a Good Thing™

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/415

[hfojvt]

51. well sometimes

you feel like a nut

sometimes you don't :hide:

[lvx35]

58. hee hee! Sorry. I would have said "drives me up the wall" but poor...

walldude is having a tough time as well:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1673604
and we all know how Crazy Canuck feels about the c-word...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=185114

[dipsydoodle]

3. I would hope that it's now gone too far

with the population for it easily to be reversed. They should now have Chavez or the likes of him for good now.

If you have yet to watch John Pilger's latest documentary "The War On/Against Democracy" then I recommend you do so. You'll find it here : http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_cover-ups.htm

[Judi Lynn]

4. If any of them had any idea what has been happening in Latin American and the Caribbean

all these years, and STILL believes it's appropriate for the U.S. to be intervening in their internal affairs, you know they are NOT concerned in any way about democracy. Not even slightly.

Opening the door to our own past there would prove to be something which will change one's perspective forever. There will be no turning back. They will rue the day they wallowed in such complete ignorance and indifference.

Since it is time consuming, a lot of them will never make the effort, and will continue to imagine they really have a very clear idea of what's been happening, and Latin Americans and people of the Caribbean are simply a bunch of crabby foreigners, easily excitable, and too ignorant to know what's best for them!

A prime example of this kind of thinking was articulated in this dandy little memo written Christmas Eve, 1897, by the Undersecretary of War, John C. Breckenridge, who had been a Southern Civil War officer years earlier:

Department of War
Office of the Undersecretary
Washington D.C.

December 24, 1897

~snip~
The inhabitants are generally indolent and apathetic. As for their learning, they range from the most refined to the most vulgar and abject. Its people are indifferent to religion, and the majority are therefore immoral and simultaneously they have strong passions and are very sensual. Since they only possess a vague notion of what is right and wrong, the people tend to seek pleasure not through work, but through violence. As a logical consequence of this lack of morality, there is a great disregard for life.

It is obvious that the immediate annexation of these disturbing elements into our own federation in such large numbers would be sheer madness, so before we do that we must clean up the country, even if this means using the methods Divine Providence used on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

We must destroy everything within our cannons’ range of fire. We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army.
(snip)

When this moment arrives, we must create conflicts for the independent government. That government will be faced with these difficulties, in addition to the lack of means to meet our demands and the commitments made to us, war expenses and the need to organize a new country. These difficulties must coincide with the unrest and violence among the aforementioned elements, to whom we must give our backing.

To sum up, our policy must always be to support the weaker against the stronger, until we have obtained the extermination of them both, in order to annex the Pearl of the Antilles.
(snip/...)

Sincerely yours,

J.C. Breckenridge


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Isn't it great to realize we've STILL got that same old magic? <argh>

What about that fine old beloved companion dictator of Bolivia, Hugo Banzer, who, in his last occupation of Bolivia's Presidency, was the one who sold Bolivia's water to the subsidiary of the Bechtel Company, which raised the price of water up to THREE TIMES its original rate for the poor of Bolivia, and then started trying to charge them for water they attempted to collect in rain barrels for their own private use, and also seized control of Bolivia's lakes and stream water, until they couldn't take it, rioted in the streets, and were shot dead in some instances, by soldiers and snipers trained at the School of the Americas, and finally drove Bechtel out of there?

Here's a look at how much damage the son of a slime did to Bolivians during the 1970's, with our blessings:

COLONEL HUGO BANZER
President of Bolivia
In 1970, in Bolivia, when then-President Juan Jose Torres nationalized Gulf Oil properties and tin mines owned by US interests, and tried to establish friendly relations with Cuba and the Soviet Union, he was playing with fire. The coup to overthrow Torres, led by US-trained officer and Gulf Oil beneficiary Hugo Banzer, had direct support from Washington. When Banzer's forces had a breakdown in radio communications, US Air Force radio was placed at their disposal. Once in power, Banzer began a reign of terror. Schools were shut down as hotbeds of political subversive activity. Within two years, 2,000 people were arrested and tortured without trial. As in Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil, the native Indians were ordered off their land and deprived of tribal identity. Tens-of-thousands of white South Africans were enticed to immigrate with promises of the land stolen from the Indians, with a goal of creating a white Bolivia. When Catholic clergy tried to aid the Indians, the regime, with CIA help, launched terrorist attacks against them, and this "Banzer Plan" became a model for similar anti-Catholic actions throughout Latin America.
(snip/)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html



Proudly signed, Hugo Banzer!

Don't you wish they would simply break down and try to find out just a tiny bit about what has happened in every Latin American country sometime? They'd be much more circumspect, far less belligerent with a little knowledge of the subject under their belts.

[dipsydoodle]

8. Another turd banged up for life

Chile ex-general jailed for life

Chile's Supreme Court has upheld the life sentence handed down to a former general for his part in the murder of 12 opponents of Augusto Pinochet.
>
The military said at the time that the members of the Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front had died in gun battles with the security forces.

A later investigation found they had been detained and shot in cold blood.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6967974.stm

[Judi Lynn]

14. Another one bites the dust! Great news! One down, and a whole lot more to come later.

Found a McClatchy (used to be Knight-Ridder) article to add to yours:

Chilean ex-general imprisoned for ordering '87 massacre

By Helen Hughes and Jack Chang, McClatchy Newspapers
Tue Aug 28, 7:23 PM ET

SANTIAGO, Chile — A former Army general who headed Chile's secret police in the late 1980s was sent to prison for life Tuesday for ordering the executions of 12 leftist guerrillas during the waning years of the Pinochet military dictatorship.
(snip)

Lawyer Nelson Caucoto, representing victims' relatives, said Tuesday's decision was historic because it punished commanding officers and not just their underlings for the crimes of Army Gen. Augusto Pinochet's 1973-1990 regime.

According to official figures, Pinochet's government was responsible for the politically motivated killings or disappearances of 3,197 people and the imprisonment and torture of tens of thousand more.

Prosecution of the 1987 killings was held up for years in military tribunals before reaching the civilian courts, Caucoto said.

"This ends in a successful way a long struggle of 20 years," Caucoto said. "It shows that when we're serious about investigating and bringing people to justice, we can do it."

The executions, which were part of a government anti-subversion campaign known as Operation Albania, constituted one of the bloodiest episodes of the last years of Pinochet's regime and a response to a failed 1986 assassination attempt against the dictator.

Military officials long insisted that the 12 members of the guerrilla group, the Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front , had died in an exchange of gunfire with soldiers. The regime even invited reporters to a house in the capital of Santiago where the bodies of seven of the guerrillas were arranged, along with a planted grenade, to appear as if a shootout had taken place.
(snip/...)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20070828bcchilemassacre_attn_national_foreign_editors_ytop

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Predictably so pathetic, isn't it?

Wow, it's WONDERFUL this guy's on his way to the slammer. Thanks for the great way to start the day: learning justice can arrive AT ALL anymore is a real gift.



Young Salas, older Salas, goodbye, Salas.

[malaise]

11. Great post n/t

[leftchick]

16. Great Post Judy! And if some are too lazy to read

there is John Pilger's excellent "War on Democracy" to watch...

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/3142

[cali]

5. What about those of us who

just don't care? Are we guilty too, because although we may admire some of the things he's done, we don't admire others, and consider his record mixed?

I don't want to see him ousted, but I don't believe in heads of states staying on for decades.

[Judi Lynn]

7. If you don't care, then don't try to meddle in the lives of the people of Venezuela.

They have indicated what their choice is, and the direction they want for their own country.

If you DO care, care at least enough to get busy and find out more about Venezuela and what is happening there rather than letting right-wing propagandists do your thinking for you.

[cali]

12. Excuse me?

How the fuck do you know what I've read or what I know about Venezuela? Oh, That's right, you don't. And let me point out that jumping to conclusions and thinking you do is sheer hubris on your part.

Warning me not to meddle in the lives of the people of Venezuela is way over the top. My post made clear that I had no interest in doing that. You might consider taking that advice yourself.

And accusing me of using right wing sources. You do have have a big enough imagination to know where I think you should shove that, don't you!

[Peace Patriot]

10. How can you not care when the Bush Junta is pouring billions and billions of our

tax dollars into the corrupt government of Colombia, where rightwing paramilitary death squads, into major drug trafficking, have been tied to the top echelons of the Uribe government--including the chief of the military, the former chief of intelligence and many Uribe office holders including relatives--and it is among this group that plans to assassinate Hugo Chavez and other democratic Andean leaders were hatched, in addition to their other murderous activities such as chainsawing union leaders to death and throwing their body parts into mass graves?

These things are being done with your money and in your name. The U.S. military and U.S. mercenaries are operating in Colombia and, along with the Uribe government and its death squads, they are using the "war on drugs" as cover to exterminate union leaders, community organizers, small peasant farmers and political leftists. This is what Bushites do. They torture and kill people. They're doing it in Iraq. They're doing it in Afghanistan. They're doing it in Guantanamo Bay and God knows where else. And they have been doing it in Colombia for six years. They have TRIED to do it in other countries, and have met amazing resistance, most notably in Venezuela, but also throughout the region.

Their purpose is threefold: 1) to drive a bloody road to the oil, gas, minerals, forests, fresh water and other rich natural resources of the Andean democracies (Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador); 2) to prevent Paraguay and Peru from joining the Bolivarian Revolution, and to drive a wedge between the Bolivarians and other leftist governments (such as Brazil, Chile and Uruguay), and 3) to destabilize the region and topple its democratic governments, to STOP this amazing democracy movement that is sweeping South America, which is aiming at social justice and Latin American self-determination.

The revolution has many leaders--Evo Morales, the first indigenous president of Bolivia, Rafael Correa, a U.S.-educated leftist economist and the new president of Ecuador, Nestor Kirchner of Argentina, Lula da Silva of Brazil, and many others, not to mention the millions and millions of grass roots activists who are making it happen. How can you not be involved when our government wants to destroy this peaceful, democratic revolution, and is funding rightwing opposition groups in each of these countries, some of whom are political and some of whom are killers?

It is that North American attitude of "I don't care" which has given our government impunity in the past for the torture and slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans. My wakeup call was Guatemala: TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND Mayan villagers slaughtered with Reagan's direct complicity, and with not one breath of outrage here because nobody knew about it!

Never again! Never again! We MUST know. We MUST inform ourselves. We must take responsibility for stopping these horrible actions that our government is planning and committing.

We can help keep Latin Americans safe, by being aware, by caring, by spreading the word, and by not letting our government and the corporate media place a cloak of ignorance over it once again.

The South Americans are furthermore creating a model for us to follow. Their belief in democracy, and their hard work on democratic institutions, is an magnificent achievement, considering what they have suffered over the last half century--with one U.S. puppet dictator after another smashing the hopes of the people and inflicting horrors upon them. This revolution is happening all over South America--with leftist (majorityist) governments elected in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Chile and Nicaragua (and soon Paraguay). We, on the other hand, are now the ones suffering a fascist coup. And we can learn how to deal with it, and how to triumph over it, and recover from it, by following their example, which can be summed up this way...

1. Transparent elections (!)
2. Grass roots organization.
3. Think big.

If they can do it--after all they've suffered--so can we. We must fight the fascist propaganda that we are subjected to every day, that tells us that we are powerless, and that bores into our hearts with a message of "don't care, don't bother, don't get involved, it's useless." The South Americans are proving otherwise. And we had best pay attention, for our own benefit, if for nothing else.

[cali]

13. I can't care about everything to the same degree.

It's that simple. And Iraq, Iran, and Palestine/Israel are the situations I'm focused on- along with local issues and Climate Change.
Yes, I'm aware that everything's connected, but I think prioritizing one's concerns is fine.

[ret5hd]

15. So why did you care enough to respond to a subject you don't care about?

[Marrah_G]

17. They can't hear you...

...over the chanting of "Viva Chavez!, Viva Chavez!" (I knew I shouldn't have clicked this thread)

:eyes:

[Peace Patriot]

61. Yeah, I'll chant "Viva Chavez!" when the Bushites and the war profiteers and their

propaganda machine demonize him and want to kill him and want to destroy democracy in Venezuela, in South America, here, and throughout the world.

Viva Chavez! Viva Chavez!

I'll chant "Viva Chavez!" for the vast population of the poor and the brown who are, at last, achieving their rightful share of political power in Venezuela and other South American countries--the majority!

Viva Chavez! Viva Morales! Viva Correa! Viva Ortega! Viva Lulu! Viva Vasquez! Viva Lugo! Viva Amlo!

I'll chant "Viva Chavez!" for the electoral victories of the first six, and the future prospects of the last two, and for all the other leftist (majorityist) leaders emerging in this profound revolution--in Peru, in Guatemala, and in other U.S. crippled states--Colombia, Honduras--where being a leftist means you might get tortured and killed by U.S.-backed death squads.

Viva Chavez! Viva Chavez!

I'll chant "Viva Chavez!" for life, for democracy, for social justice, for human rights, for constitutional government and the rule of law, for power to the people, for education, for fairness, for free speech, for lively political culture with everyone participating, and for defeat of the Bushites and their global corporate predator puppetmasters who are killing us all!

Viva Chavez! Viva Chavez! May he live long and be "president for life" like our own FDR! May he slay the dragons of greed and selfishness! May he use his power (70% approval rating) well! And may he and his allies in Latin America, and all their billions of supporters, prosper! And may the Bush Junta go to hell!

Viva, viva, viva Chavez!

[nashville_brook]

48. remember Iran/Contra -- there's a history of linking the two

[nashville_brook]

47. whoa! wish i could REC this post -- damn!

Their purpose is threefold: 1) to drive a bloody road to the oil, gas, minerals, forests, fresh water and other rich natural resources of the Andean democracies (Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador); 2) to prevent Paraguay and Peru from joining the Bolivarian Revolution, and to drive a wedge between the Bolivarians and other leftist governments (such as Brazil, Chile and Uruguay), and 3) to destabilize the region and topple its democratic governments, to STOP this amazing democracy movement that is sweeping South America, which is aiming at social justice and Latin American self-determination.

same old same old.

[Judi Lynn]

6. It's not that far back to the reign of Bush #41's friend in Venezuela, Carlos Andres Pérez,

the one who suddenly raised the cost of things like public transportation for the poor so high they suddenly found they couldn't even afford the price needed to haul them off to work and home on the buses, and they ran into the streets to protest, only to be shot in their tracks by the state police Pérez told to fire on them, in 1989, in the massacre named "El Caracazo."

This piece of murderous filth was later impeached and imprisoned for embezzlement and corruption, but still remains, from his homes in New York and Miami, and elsewhere, a prominent voice for the oligarchy.

It wasn't all that long ago when Mr. Privatization held court. Now he publicly calls for Hugo Chavez to be shot on the street, "like a dog." What he means is, "like a Venezuelan peasant." He has some experience with that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

9. Why Yes. If You Don't Support Chavez, Then You Support The Terrorists.

:eyes:

[wndycty]

18. Don't you love it when so-called progressives/DUers use the same logic as Bushco

I love it when Chavez attacks Bush, but there is absolutely no way I can support this guy.

[EFerrari]

35. That's a false analogy because the OP is correct about

the the US backed dictators that the Bolivarian Revolution has displaced. Mr. Bush, on the other hand, is full of it.

And given the tsunami of anti Chavez propaganda, it's unsurprising that so called "progressives" have been snookered.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. Yes Yes Yes, The Whole "Nah, It's Ok When I Say It" Rule.

[EFerrari]

50. No, these were two different situations. n/t

[nashville_brook]

49. nice talking point

[ck4829]

19. There are one party states in Latin America that we never hear about

El Salvador's Right Wing ARENA party has dominated the Executive Branch for many years, any there is nobody who thinks that any other party will be able to have the power ARENA has for a long time.

But we never hear a peep about ARENA, I wonder why.

[EFerrari]

23. Because they are in Junior's back pocket?

:thumbsup:

[Judi Lynn]

24. ARENA came up briefly right after the murder of three officials who were travelling

by car to a meeting. One of them was the son of ARENA founder, Roberto D'Aubuisson. When the suspects of the murder were in jail, THEY were murdered.

This story sank like a stone. It was only in play a very brief time, and corporate papers paid very little attention to it. Conventional electronic media didn't seem to stir themselves enough to mention it.

Here's an AP story:

Slaying of legislators in Guatemala `a mistake'
AP, SAN SALVADOR
Sunday, Feb 25, 2007, Page 4
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2007/02/25/2003350014

It is usually left out that the assassination of the three political figures, including Eduardo D'Aubuisson, happened on the anniversary of the death of death squad leader, Roberto D'Aubuisson, father of the murder victim, Eduardo. The odds it would be significant, I assume would be one in 365.



The three murdered ARENAS politicians
Eduardo D'Aubuisson in the middle



Roberto D'Aubuisson

Tuesday, 20 February 2007, 11:48 GMT
Salvador politicians found dead
Police have found the bodies of three Salvadorean politicians and their driver in a bullet-riddled and burnt-out car outside Guatemala City.
The three men were members of the governing Arena party of El Salvador, and were deputies to the Central American Parliament.

One of them was the son of the party's late founder, Roberto D'Aubuisson.

D'Aubuisson was accused of being behind the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Arnulfo Romero in 1980.

The four killings followed a controversial request by the Salvadorean Congress to honour Roberto D'Aubuisson, who died of cancer in 1990.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/6378645.stm

~~~~~~~~~~

From NPR, a decent article:

~snip~
The Past Is Present

The war that once raged in El Salvador in the 1980s -- a flashpoint in the Cold War -- is not a topic of debate in the current U.S. presidential race. But the ghosts of the conflict linger.

"You're not always measured by the things that you have a bill named after you for -- sometimes you're measured by stopping really bad things from happening, like when I stood up and helped stop Ronald Reagan's illegal war in Central America," Senator Kerry declared on a recent campaign stop in Wisconsin.

In 1986, John Kerry, then a freshman senator, was a persistent critic of the Reagan-Bush policies in Central America. Drawing parallels to his experience in Vietnam, Kerry called for an end to the contra war in Nicaragua and was a critic of U.S. policy in El Salvador. Kerry gained both admirers and enemies when he chaired the Senate Subcommittee on Narcotics, Terrorism and International Operations, which reporters quickly dubbed the "Kerry committee." Kerry's investigation of the then-obscure Colonel Oliver North eventually helped to uncover the Iran Contra scandal. Kerry's supporters admired his maverick spirit and courage; conservatives attacked him for playing into the hands of communists in El Salvador and Nicaragua.

President George W. Bush recruited many Reagan/Bush-era veterans of the Central American wars to serve on his foreign policy team. Despite objections from Democrats in Congress, Bush's déjá vu appointments have included Eliot Abrams (who pled guilty to two counts of lying to Congress during the Iran Contra hearings), Richard Armitage, John Poindexter, Roger Noriega and Otto Reich. Most recently, John Negroponte was appointed ambassador to Iraq. Negroponte was ambassador to Honduras under George H.W. Bush and was criticized by human rights organizations for not doing enough to stem death squad activity there.

The relationship between today's President Bush and El Salvador's conservative ARENA party government is one of mutual gratitude. Consider it payback.
(snip/...)



President Bush and El Salvador's ARENA led government are close allies. President Saca's July visit to the White House marked the sixth time that Bush has met with El Salvador's president. El Salvador is the only other country in the Americas still contributing troops to the coalition in Iraq. (photo: AP/Wide World Photos)

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/elections/elsalvador/

~~~~~~~~~~~



The last sermon of Arena's murder victim, beloved of the poor of El Salvador, Bishop Oscar Romero, shot in the heart giving mass. Closing words of the sermon:

I would like to make a special appeal to the men of the army, and specifically to the ranks of the National Guard, the police and the military. Brothers, you come from our own people. You are killing your own brother peasants when any human order to kill must be subordinate to the law of God which says, "Thou shalt not kill." No soldier is obliged to obey an order contrary to the law of God. No one has to obey an immoral law. It is high time you recovered your consciences and obeyed your consciences rather than a sinful order. The church, the defender of the rights of God, of the law of God, of human dignity, of the person, cannot remain silent before such an abomination. We want the government to face the fact that reforms are valueless if they are to be carried out at the cost of so much blood. In the name of God, in the name of this suffering people whose cries rise to heaven more loudly each day, I implore you, I beg you, I order you in the name of God: stop the repression.

The church preaches your liberation just as we have studied it in just as we have studied it in the holy Bible today. It is a liberation that has, above all else, respect for the dignity of the person, hope for humanity's common good, and the transcendence that looks before all to God and only from God derives its hope and its strength.

From The Church and Human Liberation, March 14, 1980.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Human%20Rights%20Documents/Archbishop_Romero.html

He knew he was going to be killed after a long period of death threats from ARENA.

~~~~~~~~~~

Filthy, distasteful final shot:

Sunday, 24 March, 2002, 18:28 GMT
US role in Salvador's brutal war

By Tom Gibb
BBC correspondent in El Salvador during the civil war in the 1980s

There is a tremendous irony that President George W Bush has chosen to visit El Salvador on the anniversary of the murder of the country's Archbishop, Oscar Arnulfo Romero, 22 years ago.

A campaigner against the Salvadorean army's death squad war, Monsignor Romero was shot through the heart while saying Mass, shortly after appealing to the US not to send military aid to El Salvador.

The appeal fell on deaf ears and for the next 12 years, the US became involved in its largest counter-insurgency war against left-wing guerrillas since Vietnam.

Today US officials are saying that President Bush's visit is in part to celebrate a US success story in which his father was personally involved.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1891145.stm

[smiley_glad_hands]

20. Personally, I could care less.

I've got my own country to worry about. Yet, I am still no fan of Chavez.

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. So, you are implying that allowing free speech and freedom of the press would force Chavez out?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

22. No, the Op is implying that sedition by media owned by the oligarchy

isn't good for democracy in Venezuela. And he is right.

[semillama]

27. That sounds uncomfortably like the argument

that US media shouldn't be critical of a sitting US president in a time of war that the Republicans are fond of trotting out. I believe the term "sedition" was used by right-wingers as well.

Any way you spin it, shutting down dissent and setting up yourself for a lifetime leadership position weren't progressive values, last time I checked.

[Judi Lynn]

29. Might as well post your proof that Hugo Chavez has "shut down dissent."

You'd be doing DU'ers a real favor.

[EFerrari]

30. No, because dissent and sedition aren't the same thing.

And it's not spin.

RCTV took an active part in trying to oust the duly elected government of Venezuela. That's not dissent, is it? And it's on tape.

It would have been hilarious had it not been so dangerous. Even as they kidnapped Mr. Chavez and lied to the people that he'd resigned, they had rich people in designer clothes shaking their fists and shouting "Democracy!" LOL

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. It was more than that:

They claimed that they were "restoring democracy" and then announced that they had dissolved the national legislature and the supreme court and "forced the resignation" of Chavez and his entire cabinet.

And they were caught on film doing it.

[EFerrari]

55. That's right. New rule: Do not stage a coup when there are filmmakers

in the house. :rofl:

[bryant69]

25. Thats a price I'm willing to pay

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Ken Burch]

57. Was there something in that link that spoke to the subject of this thread?

if so, I couldn't find it. Please offer further guidance.

[Lilith Velkor]

62. It's his sigline. n/t

[Nucular Terrorist]

26. Please stop shoving Hugo Chavez down our throats.

Hugo Chavez gives me a greedy revolutionary-in-a-box vibe.

Pardon me if I don't spray my shorts like a geeky 13-year-old boy watching a Playboy because some man in a 3000 plus Brioni suit voices basic criticism that was uttered by Americans here at home.

I don't like him, I never have, defeat the Bushbots.

[EFerrari]

31. If you're tired of this discussion after two weeks,

you may want to avoid Chavez threads. Then that whole underwear problem goes away!

[Dutch]

32. Forced you to click on this thread, did he?

My, my, the power of the chavistas is truly all-encompassing!

[Judi Lynn]

28. To whom it may concern: I need help with an online Chavez documentary, please!

I found this site, featuring a fairly short film. I believe, if I'm grasping this correctly, I can get this for nothing at this link:
http://www.documen.tv/web-html/html/html_configuration.htm

On the home page, it says this:

HUGO CHAVEZ
Documentary

52 minutes

2004
English / Spanish
Ligia Blanco

Les Films du Village , Planète , Zarafa Films


TO UNDERSTAND WHO IS HUGO CHAVEZ

Hugo Chavez, the President of Venezuela, is undoubtedly the most singular, paradoxical and colourful figure of all the politicians who have marked the history of the Latin-American continent in the past twenty years. This forty-six-year old former paratrooper officer admires Simon Bolivar, the Che and Jesus Christ he very often quotes. When he came into power the social and economic situation of the country was disastrous - despite its oil. For the past two years he has been fighting all battles with the enthusiasm of the crowds of underprivileged, whose hero he is, as sole support. Is he going to eradicate misery as he has bet he will? Is he going to fall into the trap of fascism, as his opponents, most of them belonging to the ruling class, fear he might? Who is this Christian and revolutionary Bolivarian who, according to our criteria, seems to be so unreasonable in his believing that miracles can happen?

http://www.documen.tv/asset/Hugo_Chavez_film.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do I understand it correctly that it's free if I follow the directions? Does this create a file? Duh!

Can you tell how much it costs if I try to buy it, instead?

I don't want to bumble around and buy it when I'd prefer to see it for nada. Thank you.

[EFerrari]

33. The writing is unclear but it looks to me like you can only watch

a preview for free.

[Judi Lynn]

34. Hmmmm! Looks like a good time for a person to re-watch the John Pilger documentary

linked by edwardlindy and leftchick, upthread, then!

Any SENSIBLE DU'er who hasn't seen it will certainly find it worthwhile, right?

Thanks. :hi:

[EFerrari]

37. John Pilger is amazing.

:hi:

[IndianaJones]

36. I do not like or support Chavez...

but I can acknowledge that things would probably be worse if he was not in power.

[EFerrari]

38. In 1932, when my mom was about a month old,

the US backed dictator in El Salvador slaughtered 1/10 of the population so the Marines would not invade.

Yes, things would be worse in Venezuela if Chavez wasn't pushing back.

[IndianaJones]

39. That is exactly the situation I am talking about...

He is certainly far better than that type of alternative.

[EFerrari]

42. At some point, the kleptocrats in the US decided it was more efficient

to stop importing slaves from Africa and to simply enslave economies in Latin America.

Anyone who tries to disrupt that lucrative strategy will be targeted, as Chavez has been targeted.

[Judi Lynn]

40. Thanks for speeding up our education! I'm ashamed to say I never heard of this before today.

Ran off to see if I could find the name of the bastard, found this abbreviated, but intense description:

MAXIMILIANO HERNANDEZ MARTINEZ
General of El Salvador

"It is a greater crime to kill an ant than a man," said General Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, a firm believer in the occult "for when a man dies he becomes reincamated, while an ant dies forever." The official records of Hernandez Martinez's anti-communist purge of 1932 were removed from EI Salvador's National Library, but the massacres, which left 40,000 peasants dead and wiped out the country's Indian culture, remain etched on the nation's collective memory.

A failed uprising organized by EI Salvador's Communist Party founder, Farabundo Marti, six weeks after Hernandez Martinez had seized power in a 1931 coup, sparked the General's crackdown on "communists." "Roadways and drainage ditches were littered with bodies," writes Raymond Bonner. "Hotels were raided; individuals with blond hair were dragged out and killed as suspected Russians. Men were tied thumb to thumb, then executed, tumbling into mass graves they had first been forced to dig." U.S. warships were stationed off-shore, ready to send in Marines to aid the General in case he ran into serious opposition.

Hernandez Martinez was run out of the country in 1944, but his memory was celebrated as recently as 1980, when the Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez Brigade carried out a series of death-squad assassinations of prominent Salvadoran leftists. Farabundo Marti, killed during the purge, has also left a legacy: the rebels currently fighting the U.S. backed government of El Salvador call themselves the FMLN, the Farabundo Marti Liberation Front.
(snip/)

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/CentralAmerica.html

[EFerrari]

41. My grandfather served under this butcher and presided

over Marti's trial.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Had no idea whatsoever. You are very well grounded in this history, my gosh.

I'm certain his memories would make a very important book, considering the time in which he worked so close to the top of the government. So much of Guatemala's modern history was being decided then, wasn't it?

Sheesh.

[EFerrari]

44. I only became aware of this about a year ago:

On December, 1931, the corrupt and incapable regime of the Labour Party, headed by Araujo, was overthrown. General Maximiliano Hernández Martínez assumed the presidency. The fraudulent elections of January, 1932, were the detonating factor of the social outbreak. Several voting sites were suspended in populations in which the Communist Party had strong presence. The insurrection began. Two frustrated assaults to the Cuartel de Caballería (Cavalry Quarters) were conducted by the rebel forces. The government ordered martial law. Strict censorship of the press was implanted. In the following days thousands of farmers and workers, carrying machetes and some few "Mauser" rifles attacked police quarters, municipal offices, telegraph stations, warehouses, and wealthy landowners' properties. This insurrection was crushed. On January 31st, Manuel Antonio Castañeda sentenced Farabundo Martí to death. He was shot and killed on February 1st, 1932. Many Coup d'états followed, including the one that overthrew General Maximiliano Hernández Martínez.

http://wikitravel.org/en/El_Salvador

They are both buried in the same cemetery.

Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras. There was a lot going, that's right.

[Judi Lynn]

52. People here were simply in the dark all that time. US taxes were being poured into

troops invading countries all over the place, but people literally had no idea whatsoever was happening. NONE. That IS a news blackout. It IS censorship, if we have been keep from knowing what we are being forced to finance with the taxes on our own labor.

I see in your link they enforced "strict censorship" in Guatemala in 1932. Amazing, simply amazing. That was some ferocious warfare going on between the elitists, and everyone else. They put them so far down with the help of the U.S., they've NEVER been able to get up.

The right-wing has its claws deeply embedded. You may find this info. from RSF interesting:

Guatemala - Annual Report 2004

~snip~
The Guatemalan press has to deal with a ruling elite and an army that still do not tolerate criticism well, especially when journalists take an interest in corruption scandals or the human rights violations that took place during the civil war. Tailing, threats, physical attacks - many forms of intimidation are used.

A raid by gunmen on the home of elPeriódico publisher José Rubén Zamora at the end of June was one of the most disturbing cases of violence as it recalled the raids carried out against news media when the country was at war. Zamora had exposed corruption scandals in his newspaper. He had also filed a complaint in which he claimed that he had been the target of harassment and intimidation by President Alfonso Portillo. The complaint could have led to Portillo being stripped of his immunity.

But 2003’s especially high number of violations was above all due to the holding of presidential and legislative elections. There was considerable tension as a result of the determination of the head of congress, Gen. Efraín Ríos Montt, to be a presidential candidate in defiance of an article in the 1985 constitution barring anyone who has overthrown a constitutional government from being president. Ríos Montt’s 18 months in power at the head of a military junta in 1982-83 were one of the bloodiest periods in a civil war that lasted from 1960 to 1996.

Despite this constitutional provision - and after much wrangling - the supreme court finally ruled that Ríos Montt could be the presidential candidate of the ruling Guatemalan Republican Front (FRG). But only after he had put considerable pressure on the court, his political opponents and human rights groups alleged. Bused into the capital, Ríos Montt supporters demanding acceptance of his right to be a candidate spread terror in the city’s streets on 24 and 25 July in a show of raw force typical of the past, but which Guatemalans had not expected to see again.

It left one journalist dead and several others wounded, including two journalists who demonstrators tried to burn alive. In the weeks that followed, journalists who tried to complain about this outrage found themselves targeted in turn. Police chief Raul Manchame was dismissed on 28 July, but no one else was held to account and the FRG stuck to the fiction that it was not involved.
(snip)
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=10002

[EFerrari]

53. So unlike here were journalists have no problem sliding between

working for the corporate media and becoming official spokesmen for the White House and the Pentagram.

:shrug:

[DCKit]

56. I have MANY reservations about Hugo Chavez, but...

all I had to hear was Bush's hysterical propaganda against him and I'm willing to see how things go for the people of Venezuela.

[LTR]

59. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety,.."

"...deserves neither liberty nor safety"

- Benjamin Franklin

[Hoooweee]

60. I think most DUers are afraid of what they see b/c of the parallels

of consolidation of power that are happening in Washington right now. They imagine what would happen if Bush were wildly popular and proposed extending the number of terms he could serve or some other power-consolidating/ Imperial Presidency type move.

What gives me solace about these moves with Chavez is what he does with this power.
He's not enriching himself and cronies. He's further spreading out land reform. He's not nationalizing oil to threaten capitalism, but so he can raise revenue to develop the Orinoco project, which will generate thousands, maybe millions of secondary, tertiary, quaternary, and quinary sector jobs that would be staffed for the first time by Venezuelans, not foreigners.

Yes, I cringe too when he acts anti-democratic because of the obvious potential for abuse. But the only people I see being abused are the families who enriched themselves for generations by making the rest of their countrymen live in poverty. Even still, I don't see them being made poor by Chavez's policies, just a degree or two less insanely rich than their countrymen.

Most importantly, I don't see the brutality that characterizes many regimes installed by our government over the past century in Latin America.