Homophobia exists independent of Sen. Craig. Homophobia strongly contributed to his behavior...

[IndianaJones]

The vast majority of homophobes and/or Republicans are not gay. Gays are not responsible for the hatred directed at them.

My contribution to the Larry Craig circus.

[mondo joe]

1. But gays like Craig who fuel the fires in his public life DO contribute to homophobia.

He gets no sympathy from me on this point.

[IndianaJones]

2. I actually find him far less reprehenisble than straight bigots. nt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. FIXED

The vast majority of homophobes and/or Republicans are not gay but the vast amount of homophobes are on the right.

[IndianaJones]

4. That may be your assertion. It is certainly not mine. nt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Hmmm

Are you suggesting that there are more homophobes on the left side of the aisle?

Can you please point me to a nation or parliament where this is true.

[IndianaJones]

10. I'm not suggesting anything. I would be interested to see the...

breakdown in this country that shows the majority of the citizenry is on the right side of the aisle.

[mondo joe]

12. Of course not -- suggesting something would mean actually being accountable.

:eyes:

[IndianaJones]

17. Again with the suggesting. My statement is rather clear...

and consistent with my statements on racism and bigotry in the United States. It is widespread and rampant. To attach it to a certain party or "side of the aisle" is naive.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. There Has Always Been A Party Or A Group Of Activists Agitating For Civil Rights

In our generation it has been parties on the left from the Labour Party in the UK to the Liberal Party in Canada to the Social Democrats in Germany...

The legislation doesn't fall from the heavens...

[IndianaJones]

62. I cannot speak for other countries....

I do know that the majority of the people in my own are bigots. To deny it is naive at best.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. The Majority

Most folks , including some well intentioned folks, are bigoted about something if you scratch hard enough...

I do think most of them can be reached through education, example, and gentle persuasion... For the recalcitrant few that's there the problem...

[IndianaJones]

65. More specifically, I think the majority of this country are....

racist and/or homophobic. Time will change this, I hope.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. I Don't Understand

Whether it be the United Kingdom's Labour party or Canada's Liberal party the parties on the left side of the aisle have been at the vanguard for all civil rights including gay rights...

[mondo joe]

5. Why? They grew up in the same society. He actually did something far worse because

he KNOWS better.

I have little blame for anyone who just tries to live their own life in safety - but he's as much my enemy as any hetero who wages legislative war against me.

[IndianaJones]

11. I feel that people can be fundamentally shaped by their environment...

some do not have the mental strength to overcome such hatred. Are they any less a victim of the hatred?

[mondo joe]

13. So no one is accountable? They're just shaped? What makes Craig any less

accountable than the guys who beat Matthew Shepherd to death? They grew up in a homophobic environment too.

[IndianaJones]

16. Were they the actual focus of the hatred? nt.

[mondo joe]

18. All the more reason to hold them less accountable. To them it's an abstract. But Craig

knew what it meant as a real thing - and yet he chose to do it to others.

He's more accountable, not less.

[IndianaJones]

20. So you do not think that people are shaped from a young age...

by their environment?

[mondo joe]

23. Sure. They are also responsible for their own choices. And in the case of Craig, he

KNEW what a lie homophobia is, in ways hetero guys might not, and yet he chose to hurt others with it.

Not just to hide and protect himself.

He CHOSE to hurt others, knowing full well what shit it was.

[IndianaJones]

26. I disagree. A lifetime of hatred can lead to self loathing....

and the resultant behavior is not a choice.

[mondo joe]

27. That's quite insulting to gays. We are just as responsible for our behavior as heteros.

To say we are somehow less accountable than others is nothing but an insult.

[IndianaJones]

28. I don't think the phenomena is limited to gays...

Any person placed in a position of seperation from society and rejection of their core identity can form these behaviors. Victims of bigotry, racism and hatred often display these very traits. Humans deal with pain in many different ways. Whether I approve of the manner in which they react, I cannot deny that they are a product of their environment.

[mondo joe]

29. It's still totally insulting. I grew up in a homophobic environment, so somehow that

makes me less accountable for my choices as a gay man?

Very insulting.

[IndianaJones]

30. Obviously you would seem to be mentally stronger than someone like Craig....

does that make him a lesser human being? Or less of a victim of this same hatred?

[mondo joe]

32. It makes him a total asshole of a human being. And it makes him a victimizer.

Too bad you don't recognize his own agency.

[IndianaJones]

34. We obviously disagree. I find it difficult to blame a person that has...

seen and been the target of lifelong hatred for displaying this same hatred in his public persona, whether to gain acceptance in the society that rejects him or to deflect some of the loathing he has for himself upon those that have been able to overcome what he has not.

[mondo joe]

35. We do. But you may only think that because you've been told to think that, and don't know better.

[IndianaJones]

36. I am a member of a minority, and so have seen firsthand the...

results of hatred and discrimination on people close to me. I have also seen the resultant behavior that generations of this bigotry can produce. The situations are not unlike this one at all. Self-destructive behavior, self-loathing and loathing of the very group one is a member of can be seen in many minorities. It is a case of psychologically abusing and damaging an individual, and thus, not a choice they make.

[mondo joe]

37. I'm sure you think that you think so. This is likely the result of some issue -

perhaps guilt - rather than your true feelings. But I'll give you a pass since I don't think you're really capable of forming a true opinion of your own.

:-)

[IndianaJones]

38. As I am sure that you don't actually believe that someone would choose...

to live such a life as Craig has apparently been living. Such a choice...to live a life of secrecy and shame in a society that would reject him otherwise, would be...unreasonable.

Peace.

[mondo joe]

40. Since you don't feel you're accountable for your choices, it's quite impossible

to take you seriously. :-)

[IndianaJones]

44. Since you feel that environment has no effect on hateful behavior...

I can only assume that you have chosen that course. :)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. You're Conflating

You're conflating understanding behavior, empathizing with behavior, countenancing behavior, sympathizing with behavior, and justifying behavior...

As a someone trained in the social sciences I understand , empathize, and sympathize with Craig's behavior but I can't justify it...

At some point we have to acknowledge free will...

[LanternWaste]

52. However, over a period of years one can overcome many prejudices

However, over a period of years one can overcome many prejudices through the simple practices of examining one's own conscious and observing the world.

I was brought up in a racist household and was a racist myself for many years. Yet by engaging in the practices I mentioned above, I was able to see the sin and rectify it.

It's not as hard to be a good person as people make it out to be. It takes neither strength nor conviction-- merely honesty to the self.

[goddess40]

9. I find them all disgusting

Why should anyone care what two consenting adults - free of commitments - do in private? It is some sick need to feel superior when people are homophobic. You can insert any prejudice but homophobia is one of the last two that are openly encouraged in this country.

But when people like Craig are so vile in public to promote this hate and then are gay/bi themselves that must be some serious self-hate.

[hobbit709]

7. Ditto on that

I don't care if he's gay. His major mistake was being stupid. Someone in his position trying to grab a quickie in a public restroom is not exactly the smartest move around.

[CTyankee]

6. Seeing his press conference denials for the umpteenth time this morning on GMA and my local news,

I said to my spouse that Sen. Craig is pitiful. His wife looks pitiful. Homophobia certainly destined this. That is clear to me and lots of other progressive non-gays. The more I see stuff like this played out, the sadder I feel for the victims of this raging sickness...

[soothsayer]

14. Yep, me too. I feel sorry for him and other repressed folks.

[mondo joe]

15. Homophobia does not exist independently. It is made and sustained by people, including Craig.

Being homosexually oriented doesn't mean you can't actively fuel the fire.

[CTyankee]

24. But I see it as circular hatred. Inculcated self hatred and that hatred

turned outward to others. It is sick for everyone, gays and straights alike. If Craig is gay and his wife is not, how can their faux marriage be healthy for either of them? It must be hell to be in their shoes, day after day...

[mondo joe]

25. I'm sure it is hellish - but it's a hell of his own creation, and maintenance.

Why does he maintain it? Because he's getting something out of it.

[CTyankee]

31. I don't know, some gays raised in that culture have been able to get away and come out

but people like Craig and his wife seemed locked in their own self destruction. Like many other self destructive behaviors, they do get "something" out of it, praise and fame from their Republican enablers and certainly an economic level of living that is comfortable. So, yes, I would agree withyou on that point. I guess it's the difference between being affluent and miserable as opposed to being poor and miserable. The misery is still there and is the price they are paying for their being so much in denial.

[mondo joe]

33. The probleem isn't his self destructive behavior but his destructiveness turned

on others outside his personal life.

(Of course his self destructive issues are a problem for his family, but I'm talking about the public policy level.)

[CTyankee]

41. that was my point about "circular hatred" projected out and projected

within the sick homophobic mind.

I find it interesting and an insight into Craig's state of mind that he pled guilty. I don't buy his tortured rationale, which makes no sense (it will all just go away if I plead guilty). Makes me think that the guy unconsciously was outing himself. Perhaps in desperation? I'm no psychologist, but it just seems so, well, odd.

[TwilightGardener]

19. Actually, I'm willing to bet that the more homophobic someone is, the

more likely that person is repressing and denying homosexual urges. That's my theory.

[LostinVA]

43. Yes -- and KKK members are secretly black

[TwilightGardener]

49. Wow, apples and oranges.

[LostinVA]

50. How so?

Both are examples of hatred against a group.

[TwilightGardener]

54. Race vs. behavior. White KKK guys hate blacks for whatever reason

(fear, feelings of superiority, etc)--it's pretty simple and clear-cut. But someone who goes out of his way to denounce homosexuals and put limits on their rights may be dealing with a clear case of self-loathing, repression, whatever psychological coping mechanisms come into play (it's been a while since Psych 101 for me)--borne of "unacceptable" urges within himself. A lot of these guys seem to join the Repub party, or the ministry/priesthood, and espouse "family values", probably as a way to reassure themselves that they're normal and not REALLY gay--in fact, the OPPOSITE of gay! Look how NOT GAY I am!

[LostinVA]

56. I can tell it's been awhile since Psych 101 for you

[IndianaJones]

53. I can't say that I agree with that claim. nt.

[mondo joe]

59. The unfortunate truth we know is that SOME people who are homosexually oriented

(and I am disinclined to call them gay or lesbian) are homophobic and very visibly so - Craig, Foley, Haggard, the "ex-gays" and others.

I don't know of any blacks who are in the KKK, though I guess in the realm of all things possible it is remotely possible, though quite unlikely.

I think where the argument really falls apart is the absolute correlation that the MORE homophobic one is, the more likely one is to be gay themselves. I don't think there is any evidence to support that notion..

We can only say that of homophobic people, some have been shown to be secretly homosexually oriented in secret.

[IndianaJones]

45. Your theory is that gays are responsible for the hatred they face. nt.

[TwilightGardener]

48. Uh, no. I'm not assigning blame.

[IndianaJones]

51. what do you base your theory on? how many homophobes are gay themselves? nt.

[TwilightGardener]

57. Just my personal instinct. The more someone does everything he

can to reassure himself and others that he's NOT GAY, the more I would suspect he's grappling with some issues and not being honest with himself. Larry Craig is a perfect example. Not saying that all gay people start out as homophobes--that's stupid, of course not. Just saying that many of the most vocal homophobes probably need to do a little soul-searching to figure out why homosexuality is such a threat to their sense of well-being.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

and for the first time, i absolutely agree with you.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. and for the first time, i absolutely agree with you.

[IndianaJones]

22. not the first time. we only recall the bad times never the good. nt.

[WinkyDink]

39. Was Craig not the one self-righteously denouncing Bill Clinton?

Is Craig not the one issuing emphatic denials?
Is Craig not the one trying to have assignations in rest-rooms?
Is Craig not the one continuing in a McGreevy Marriage?

Maybe voters WOULDN'T vote Craig into office, were he openly gay. But maybe they would.

[IndianaJones]

42. It is certainly a case of a man publicly denying who he is in a society that vilifies him

for being such.

[treestar]

46. IA, the majority are probably fundies

Who literally believe the Bible.

Craig's behavior would be just as bad if it were straight. The hypocrisy of Repukes is the only issue. How they do what they condemn in others.

[IndianaJones]

47. the majority of homophobes? nt.

[treestar]

55. I don't know

Maybe not the majority, because there are different reasons, but a fundie is very likely to be a homophobe. Anyone met one who is not?

I don't know about the breakdown in homophobes, though. Some could be repressed homosexuals, but not necessarily all, and I was thinking the fundies could truly be straight and still hate/fear gays due to their Biblical interpretations.

There are of course religious people who are not homophobes. There are believers who are liberals, that I know. But I've so far not come across those rabid fundie types and ever found them to be liberal on any issue.

[Major Hogwash]

58. Perhaps, but Craig was this way clear back in the 70's, before he went to Congress.

There have been persistent rumors about Craig's sexuality ever since he was kicked out of the Idaho National Guard in 1972. He served less than 2 years and was medically discharged, given an honorable discharge. However, rumors have been around ever since I can remember that he was caught in the back of a truck with another National Guard soldier from Idaho, yet the Commanding General here simply used the medical discharge as a way to get rid of him.