Is it the SUV or is it the mileage?

[The Backlash Cometh]

Sometimes the soundbite is so tempting, that one overlooks the facts. SUVs, as a general class, may be classified as gas guzzlers, but look closer and you'll notice that you're opening a door which you better be prepared to enter if you attack them generically. If you attack every SUV, you do so under the assumption that every SUV's mileage is unacceptably higher than the norm. That assumption would be wrong. So, in essence, it's not every SUV, but the mileage that you should be focused on. Here's a sample of trapdoors when it comes to mileage surprises:

Honda Pilots (SUV) range from 18-24 MPG (City to highway)
Toyota Siennas (mini-van) range from 19-26 MPG (City to highway)
Mazda RX8 (sportscar) ranges from 18-24! Same as the Honda Pilot.

That's just a sample. So, shouldn't the candidates be careful and direct their barbs to the main issue: Miles per gallon? And not the type of vehicle because there are a lot of surprises out there.

And before people jump the gun and assume that everyone should dump their SUVs and buy a 40MPG hybrid, keep in mind that people are having trouble paying for their mortgages and kid's college education and are going to be reluctant to give up a vehicle which is already paid for.

[Momgonepostal]

1. They are getting a lot better, that's for sure

All those bigger vehicles sure share the road poorly, regardless of their mileage. You can't see around them, and they often take up more than their share of parking spaces.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. Some of them are way too large. And it's definitely a question of

status and luxury because the yuppy parents want their 2.3 kids to have their own captain chairs AND enough room to transport four sets of custom luggage and the family dog. That's ridiculous.

[AndyA]

22. That has a lot to do with their drivers, too.

Knowing they have a large vehicle, they can always park in an area that's less congested, so others don't have to deal with their big vehicle. They can also make sure it's parked between the lines.

Drivers of large vehicles can be thoughtful of others, and recognize that others can't see over/around/through their large vehicle. That means they stop back a bit when trying to turn when there's another vehicle in the next lane trying to do the same thing. I can't tell you how many times I've been stopped trying to make a right turn, and a big ass pick up truck pulls up in the left lane to make a left turn. They pull up so far, that I cannot see oncoming cars to know when it's safe to turn.

So, everyone just sits there until an opening happens for the truck to turn left. The idiot driving the truck can see over me, but I can't see over or through them.

Being courteous has nothing to do with the vehicle, it is a driver issue. And I've seen lots of small car drivers darting in and out of traffic just because they can, weaving and changing lanes. That's just as dangerous as a big vehicle whose driver can't keep it in their own lane in my opinion.

Given all the facts, I'd rather have a larger vehicle with so many idiots on the road. The safety factor makes them worth the additional cost of fuel. Plus, driven efficiently they do pretty well. If you combine all your trips and car pool, your overall gas mileage can be pretty good. Contrast that with the econo box owner across the street who makes 15 short trips every day, never has others in the car with them, and has a lead foot. Not much efficiency there, and when you also give up safety for that little car, they aren't all that attractive.

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. Safety factor is an issue for me too.

I use to drive a four door sedan Maxima back when I had a problem with low blood sugar. I got so that I never wanted to drive within a two mile radius of the house. I was just so jittery when I drove the kids in the car, and my nerves would set off my sugar problems. Finally, there were three near misses from larger cars that didn't see me in the smaller vehicle and tried to come into my lane, that I finally gave in.

The security issue was a factor. My nerves calmed down and I drive with confidence.

[wuushew]

29. Maximas are very safe cars

I can tell you from personal experience in a roll over. My 1997 has good ABS and driver and passenger side airbags. The only gripe is that my generation of Maxima did not have independent rear suspension.

Nissan V6s are excellent engines as well. 27+ mpg combined. Next car will be smaller but it makes no sense upgrade until necessary since it is a sunk cost right now.

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. I loved my Maxima.

It's just that the responsibility of driving kids in it was more than I could emotionally handle with my condition. Sounds wimpy, I know, but I never said I was superwoman.

[Clark2008]

49. Well, if they don't catch on fire.

Ex hubby had two - rife with electrical problems.

I don't like them much.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

45. A Maxima is far from being a small car..

That's one of the silliest things I've heard lately.

A Maxima is actually quite a large car by today's standards and is probably safer than most SUV's.

The impression of increased safety in a SUV is almost entirely illusion.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. A Maxima, for a family car, is small.

Try taking long trips with luggage for four, and the family dog, in one of them.

[LSK]

54. compared to what??????????????

What 4 door SEDAN is big in your opinion?

Its not 1975 anymore!!!

:wtf:

[The Backlash Cometh]

56. We will respectfully disagree.

[LSK]

57. no you don't, tell me what 4 door sedans are bigger

Don't cop out like that.

Debate! Support your argument!

Sheesh!

[The Backlash Cometh]

58. Having raised a growing family, using a Maxima for the family car,

I can tell you that it was an uncomfortable experience for long trips. It was only one step better than driving eight people and luggage in a rented pinto. Or was it a pacer?

Experience is a bitch to overcome, when it comes time to shell out twenty to forty thousand dollars.

[LSK]

59. but thats not the argument

Of all 4 door cars built today, the Maxima is considered big.

I'm not going to argue with you that a minivan or a SUV has more room. Thats not the arugment thou.

Oh well, if you cant even debate something properly, why should I bother.

[wuushew]

60. Ford still makes the Crown Victoria

I haven't ridden in one though.

[CRF450]

70. Yup, and they're bigger than the Maxima

My dad has one and I drove it many times. It rides/drives smooth, handles ok for a big car, has really good brakes. But I hate the way how it feels, the smooth ride is great and all but the steering is so light it rediculous, cant even feel the road through it. And the throttle response is horrible to me. Takes like half a second to move after you push down the accelerator!

[The Backlash Cometh]

62. Apparently, you were having the argument all by yourself.

I was never interested in debating which four door car was better than any other. At the time of our decision, we were looking for something that could transport seven to eight kids to travel to out of town tournaments.

But, if you insist, I would say that the earlier model Maxima had more usuable room than the older one; and that a Bonneville beat them all.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

66. But that wasn't what you said..

You said the Maxima made you nervous because it was small.

A Maxima is on the large end of the scale for four door sedans these days.

Not to mention that they handle and brake far better than a minivan or an SUV.

[The Backlash Cometh]

67. Well, there you have it.

Compared to what I'm driving, it is small. And I live in a red county. Everybody drives an SUV. You're at a disadvantage if you don't.

However, we did go to LA a couple of summers ago, and I can't remember but seeing one or two large SUVs. Most were small cars. In that area, a Maxima would have been huge.

[bryant69]

2. I hate SUVs becuase I can't see through them

Damn Kryptonite!

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Vilis Veritas]

8. I have noticed that since I traded up to the Jetta TDI

from my Silverado, I have a distinct disadvantage here in Texas when it comes to visibility.

Of course, I just kick it and pass all them slugs like they are standing still and I still get 42mpg.

Peace.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LibDemAlways]

31. There are two huge SUVs in my area, one a

Suburban, the other a Hummer, that have been painted to resemble American flags. How clueless could those idiots be? Big, wasteful gas guzzling pieces of shit wrapped in the flag. Makes me wanna :puke:

My hatred of the really huge ones goes beyond the pitiful mileage to the arrogant people who drive the unstable beasts one-handed, speeding along, while yakking on a cell phone about nothing. This is very, very common in my neck of the woods.

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. I share your concerns with those two vehicles.

[warren pease]

63. Yeah, it's not necessarily the size or the mileage...

It's often the asshole behind the wheel that brings out the road rage.

wp

[bryant69]

36. I hate it when a message is deleted before i see it n/t

[Vilis Veritas]

3. It is the mileage.

There is nothing that prevents the industry from producing a 40mpg SUV or truck. It is really just the fact that it is cheaper to use 40 year old engine designs than it is to build new production lines and start producing efficient SUV's and trucks. Of course this is my un-educated opinion.

Peace.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. Yes, it's the mileage.

[krispos42]

61. There's plenty to keep them from making a 40-mpg SUV

Size and aerodynamics.

SUVs are taller than cars, and the large ones are also wider by a fair amount. This increases their 'sail area'. They also generally have a squarer design, which increases their coefficient of aerodynamic drag.

As a result, it takes twice as much power to push an Explorer or Tahoe through the air at a given speed as a Fusion or Malibu. It's about 30 horsepower to push a sedan through the air at highway speeds, it's 50 or 60 for a big SUV.

Truck-based SUVs are also made to heavy-duty standards, which involve a lot of steel, and thus weight to push around.

Acceleration equals weight devided by force. If you increase the weight of a vehicle, you need to increase the available power (force) to keep the acceleration constant. And more power uses more gas.

The mass and drag of large SUVs don't work well with the hybrid systems, either. Smaller ones, like the Escape, work pretty well because the Escape is a car-based SUV. Think of it as a tall Ford Fusion.

There are ways to work around the problem (check my Journal for one) but I have errands to run, and can't stay and yak about it!

[Vilis Veritas]

65. All valid and I should have been clearer...

It is not just engine design that is old. It is the entire vehicle. Design is the key.

Composite materials, lighter metals, efficient engines and smaller aerodynamic foot prints would all be required to reach the goal of a high mileage SUV...but it could be done.

[krispos42]

68. We are seeing that, thanks to the crossovers

A lot of these, and of the smaller, car-like SUVs, are using car-style unibody construction and car engines. A Subaru Forester, for example, is about the same size, weight, power, and passenger capacity as a Dodge Stratus. Because the Forester is car-based, it only has a 1-mpg penalty over the Stratus, due to it's increased height.

It's when you have to get the carrying and towing capacities of a truck that it really begins taking it's toll on fuel milage. That big engine in the front and beefy, long-travel suspension components limit how 'swoopy' you can make the sheetmetal, for example.

All that extra steel in the frame, and the extra displacement in the engine, to tow a 9,000-lb trailer takes it's toll as well.

Some weight can be saved by using aluminum or carbon-fiber body panels, which would save maybe two hundred pounds per vehicle, maybe more. It would be nice!

[wuushew]

4. Never forget that SUV as a class was created to cheat CAFE standards

n/t

[Sherman A1]

10. Precisely

It's all about the loophole big enough to drive a Hummer through.

:toast:

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. Not all of them are cheating.

It would be nice if some of the good ones were posted so that one does not make an enemy of all SUV owners.

[wuushew]

24. The purpose of CAFE was to balance high and low mileage vehicles by sales volume

Did you ever wonder why the full sized station wagon disappeared as a vehicle class in the United States? The answer is that many of the roles that the station wagon fulfilled were grafted onto the SUV because as heavier more massive vehicles the profit margin was greater.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. its mileage and safety.

[IndianaJones]

6. man...I'd kill for 20 mpg. nt.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. What do you drive?

[IndianaJones]

17. Full size Bronco. Looking for an alternative for my commute though. nt.

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. Here's something to protect you from the SUV backlashers.

:hide:

[IndianaJones]

21. I love the vehicle. The commute is too long to keep driving it...

I'll keep it for towing and as a hunting truck.

Is 15 mpg too low?

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. That's the ticket, isn't it?

What is an acceptable mpg ratio? And shouldn't the standard be different for older model cars/trucks/vehicles which are still in good condition to drive, versus newer models?

[WinkyDink]

9. Gas-guzzling; headlights beaming into my eyes; roll-over tendencies; danger to cars; PLUS~~~~

being classified as "trucks" for tax breaks:

http://4wheeldrive.about.com/cs/drivingtipssafety/a/aa041603a_4.htm

[havocmom]

16. Yep. All the above.

:thumbsup:

[Buzz Clik]

37. And that sums it up completely. The CAFE exclusion is the big pisser for me.

I can live with the gas guzzling if the SUV is full of people.

[TwilightZone]

12. The Ford Escape Hybrid gets 34mpg city.

Better than most cars.

That being said, the various "fuel efficient" SUVs on the market tend to be outsold by the guzzlers be a healthy margin.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. I think the hybrids are safe.

Or they should be.

[texastoast]

13. It is about the mileage

And it should be about why would corporations squelch the distribution of a great car like the electric Honda EV1.

Or why the government would subsidize an industry that wishes to continue to squelch the development of an infrastructure that could support non-polluting electric cars and that continues to rape the land, pollute the air, and change the climate.

[livvy]

25. 2004 Subaru Forrester automatic: 22 city/27 highway

Yes, it should be about the mileage. I just got back from a road trip, and this is pretty accurate for highway driving. Also, it's about how much driving/gas consumption for the individual. I've got 16,000 miles on my 2004, and this is after the 1,900 mile road trip.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. Thanks for the info.

[LSK]

41. only a few SUVs get better than 20 city mpg

Subaru, RAV4, CRV4, Escape, new Jeep Patriot.

Almost every other one of them is under 20mpg. Most are around 15/16 city MPG.

[KittyWampus]

26. SUV's are not Crash Compatible, end of story. They kill other people unnecessarily.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. Yes. Because Before There Were SUV's, All Those Killed In Wrecks Were Killed Necessarily.

:eyes:

[KittyWampus]

32. SUV's were not designed for Crash Compatibility AS OTHER CARS ARE. So take your smilie

and replace it with the duncecap.

Your ignorance of what the term Crash Compatability means as regards auto engineering & design doesn't say much for you.

Go look up the term "Crash Compatability".

Or are you the type who calls the kids who get their guts sucked out of their anus from a pool stupid?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Yup. You're Absolutely Right. Before SUV's All Those Killed In Autos Were Killed Necessarily.

Yup. That's the way it was before those damn pesky SUV's came along. Ahhhhh, I remember those days... the days when all those killed in wrecks were killed necessarily...

:eyes:

[DS1]

48. Scrape Scrape Scrape

point, meet air

air, point

[Buzz Clik]

40. I totally agree with your point.

The configuring of the SUV to give it that extra-high ride combined with the massive weight leads to a life danger for any poor bastard who gets hit by one.

Scaling back on the height of the vehicle as well as reducing the weight would mean that an SUV will line up better with the impact resistance designed into more typical passenger cars. The design of some of the behemoths turns those SUVs into death machines.

[tridim]

47. And guess who gets to share the increased insurance premiums.

Yep, us poor bastards in small cars.

SUV's have given us:
More death
More pollution
More oil wars
Higher insurance premiums
More expensive gasoline
Less visibility
Congested parking lots
More careless, asshole drivers

If I had my way I'd recycle them all for scrap to build safer and more fuel efficient cars.

[BlooInBloo]

33. In reality, all under 20mpg. Thanks for showing us how shitty they still are....

... Mileage and the safety issues.

[tridim]

51. 20 mpg was good by 60's standards..

But (to borrow a Bushism), we're talking about this in 2007. 20mpg SUCKS!

My friend keeps complaining about his 4-Runner getting 12mpg and every time I just tell him to junk it. 12mpg is unacceptable and IMO it shouldn't pass inspection. His truck shouldn't even be allowed on the road.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Both.

Simply the concept of taking a vehicle originally meant for off road driving and perverting it into something that isn't even good for road driving, and that becoming immensely popular among jackasses is a shame in and of itself.

[ieoeja]

35. For me, it's the SUV.

I mostly ignore the SUV threads because I agree that they do not address the real issue. I think the mileage argument is largely an invention.

Major metro areas have roads designated solely for commuter traffic. Trucks (panelled, tractor-trailer and even pickups) are banned because (1) their extra weight cause these roads to wear out faster, and (2) they block other drivers' vision in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

So why are SUVs exempted from these rules? They are heavier than cars. And they block our vision. SUVs in heavy traffic always have greater empty space in front of and behind because of these vision problems.

I don't want SUV owners punished. I don't want them paying higher taxes, etc. I just want them to have to obey the same laws as any other truck.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

55. You must live in the Northeast..

Everywhere else I've been in the USA there are no restrictions on pickup trucks..

[ieoeja]

64. Chicago. n/t

[southpaw]

39. Mileage, mostly

My major beef with SOME SUV's is that they are gas guzzling, pollution spewing affronts to all things decent.

Secondarily, the bigger, more obnoxious ones (especially Hummers and Excursions) seem to be functioning as penile extensions/status symbols.

[Ezlivin]

42. It's the safety (for larger SUVs)

In a crash, the high bumper, stiff frame and steel-panel construction of SUVs can override crash protections of other vehicles, making them dangerous for other motorists in two-vehicle crashes. SUVs are also dangerous for their own occupants. The vehicles' high profile and narrow track width makes them very rollover prone. Because the typical SUV also has a weak roof and poor crash protection, this combination of hazards places SUV occupants at a high risk of death or paralysis. Although rollover crashes are rare as a type of crash, the death toll from these crashes accounts for a third of all highway motor vehicle deaths, and is sixty percent of the deaths in SUVs.Source

But the head of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Jeffrey Runge, said Tuesday in a speech at an auto-industry conference in Detroit that some of the SUVs are so dangerous, he wouldn't buy one for his daughter even "if it was the last one on Earth." Source

[The Backlash Cometh]

50. Some SUVs have good roll-over ratings.

[CRF450]

71. Usually its the smaller, car based ones

[The Backlash Cometh]

72. Which proves my point. Not all SUVs are the same.

[DS1]

46. It's the mileage, and increased amount of resources each one requires

more steel for the frame, more rubber on the tires, more ceramics in the brakes, bigger shocks, more leather, and on and on and on.

[MadHound]

53. It isn't just the gas mileage, though that is an important component

If you take the average of SUV mileages across the board, they are indeed much lower than that of normal passenger vehicles. Sure, there are individual makes and models that are better than some, but overall, SUV mileages are horrible. Furthermore, with more material, it takes more energy to put an SUV together.

However that isn't the only problem with SUVs. The next worse problem IMO is the fact that all SUVs are exempt from the environmental and exhaust regulations that apply to normal passenger cars, since they are not classified as cars, but as light trucks. Thus all SUVs pollute more than normal passenger cars.

Then there is the safety issue. Not only is an SUV more prone to roll over than a normal car, but their handling, especially emergency handling, is utter crap. In addition, SUVs are more of a threat on the road than normal passenger cars. An SUV is much more likely to kill somebody in an accident than a normal passenger car.

Then there is one of my personal beefs, the inability to see around the damn things, especially if you're in a normal passenger vehicle. This again presents some serious safety issues and leads to increased accidents and death.

Then we come to the matter of the drivers themselves. Granted, this is anecdotal evidence, but it seems as though SUV drivers seem to hit the road with a much more heightened sense of entitlement, aggression, and rudeness, while simultaneously being less safe on the road. They seem to think that being surrounded by a fiberglass and steel behemoth entitles them to drive recklessly, pull asinine stunts, be a traffic hazard, and not pay attention to what's going on around them. It is these sorts of attitudes that really turn off people to SUVs and their drivers. In addition, this ostentatious display of wealth(or credit) is really downright tacky, especially in this day and age. Do you really need that Caddy Gigantico to schlup yourself back and forth to work? Is that Hummer actually going to go offroad, or is it simply your penile compensation?

SUVs were originally designed with one job in mind, getting construction crews and materials back and forth to the job site. Now they are looked on as gaudy status symbols. Frankly, I find the rise of SUVs disgusting, especially in an age of decreasing oil. Hopefully these beasts will die a quiet death and go away.

[CRF450]

69. I dont car much about SUV's but...

If someone wants one and can afford it, I got no problem with their choice. Those of you who complain about them not having passengers, towing etc etc... should see them here at the Outerbanks in North Carolina. You'll see lots and lots of SUV's and trucks loaded up with people and luggage. Capacities that a regular sedan cant handle. Theirs also a great number of construction/landscaping workers driving trucks here. I myself am a truck owner because I clean pools and spa's over the April to Oct vacation season.

My truck is an 01 Dodge Dakota, 4 door crew cab, and a 4x4 with the 4.7 230hp v8. It gets other uses other than work, which is hauling my dirtbike to other places and tracks, riding around with friends and once in while offroading at the beach. Although the engine is not as powerfull as most other v8's, it has decent acceleration and can tow almost over 6,000 pounds at regular road speeds. It handles pretty decent and the brakes work well.

[HughMoran]

73. Lol - the South Park where Kyle's family buys a hybrid and moves to San Fran is on

lol - just as I am reading this post - very funny. The whole show is about exactly this controversy (more or less)...

[The Backlash Cometh]

76. Damn. I'd like to watch that one.

South Park may have jumped the shark, but sometimes they do make fun of the overzealousness of liberals which drives the point home.

[AZBlue]

74. Are those supposed to be examples of good gas mileage??!? Really??

I wouldn't buy a car that got that low mileage, no matter what the make or model.

[ozone_man]

75. It's the milage and the bigger is better mentality.

A major part of it is the bigger, American way of life. We are supersized! SUVs are the ultimate expression of what it means to be an American. Not that I want it that way, but did you ever look around you on the highway? And try to find your car in a parking lot full of SUVs, some as big as small houses, like a Chevrolet Suburban. And try to park next to one of those.

The mileage is ultimately the most important aspect, but it's a heck of lot easier to make a high mileage 3,000 lb. car than a high mileage 5,000 lb. car.

It's a change in the way that we live that is required. We have to live as part of nature, otherwise we'll find ourselves on one big parking lot, no wetlands, no wildlife.

[Odin2005]

77. It's not the SUVs themselvs that bother me.

It's the fact that so many people have SUVs that don't need such vehicles. It's all about conspicuous consumption, vanity, wanting to look macho, and people thinking that such a huge vehicle makes them safer on the road (they don't care about the safety of OTHERS on the road, apparently). I have no problem with people having an SUV as long as you actually NEED it.

[Ilsa]

78. Yeah, it's the size of the engine and what it has to pull, and how

fast it has to perform (and people frequently travelling on busy freeways want quick pick-up). Large trucks for hauling, etc get poor mileage.

My SUV is paid for. I won't be getting another vehicle for a long time.