will Hayrunnisa wear the Islamic headscarf in the Cankaya Palace?

[donsu]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IH30Ak01.html


New president has Turkey holding its breath


Overriding concerns by the ever-watchful military and the secularists, Turkey's Parliament on Tuesday elected Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul as the first Islamic-rooted president of the 83-year-old republic.

Along with him, Turkey also gets a first lady, Hayrunnisa Gul, who may wear the Islamic headscarf as the official hostess at the Cankaya Palace. The presidential palace has so far banned such attire.

-snip-

Gul married Hayrunnisa when she was only 15 and he was 30. Her head attire is a matter of controversy, since Islamic headgear is banned in public offices and universities. Any woman wearing it has been left out of official receptions at the presidential palace. Now she has to host them - and it's still up in the air whether the military or the opposition Republican People's Party would attend a reception that she may host in a headscarf.

The Turkish media have carried reports that Gul's wife may actually bare her hair at some receptions, or wear a partial headscarf. Gul's daughter circumvented rules preventing headscarves at universities by wearing a wig over her headscarf.

Hayrunnisa Gul took the Turkish state to the European Human Rights Tribunal claiming that her freedom to wear the attire of her choice was denied, but she dropped the action when her husband became foreign minister.
-snip-
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she sounds like one of the religiously insane.

poor thing, married at 15.

[cali]

1. why do you think she's one of the religiously insane?

On the face of it, Turkey's laws against wearing head scarves seems to be draconian. Why shouldn't a woman wear a headscarf if she chooses to?

[donsu]

2. are you being naive on purpose?

nt

[azurnoir]

3. So you believe that

Islamic women who choose to wear a hijab should not be allowed to?
No I am not being naive. I am asking if you believe some people should not be allowed to practice their religion as they choose too and why you believe this. This question relates solely to the hijab, not any terrorist activity or suicide bombers, unless of course you believe the hijab is part of that.

[cali]

4. No. If I'm being naive, please explain to

me what it is I'm being naive about.

[donsu]

5. let's see - covering the hair is a religious thing

their govt. is trying to be secular. she whats it to be religious, her religion.

she can cover her head all she wants to but not in the Palace as that is the law.

[azurnoir]

7. So governments can dictate how a religion is practiced? n/t

[donsu]

8. you have heard of seperation of state and religion? the Palace is State

nt

[azurnoir]

12. Yes I have

however would you disallow Nancy Pelosi from wearing a cross while on the House floor or Dianne Feinstein from wearing a Star of David while addressing the Senate? While the hijab is a bit more noticeable the principle is the same, they are not actively preaching or practicing any religious doctrine but they are simply wearing a symbol of their own.
Turkey is trying to gain membership in the EU at the moment and the fact that it is an majority Muslim country is a talking point of those who oppose it.

[Marrah_G]

6. Turkey is very careful about absolute separation of church and state

Cut from Wikipedia:

"There is a strong tradition of secularism in Turkey. Even though the state has no official religion nor promotes any, it actively monitors the area between the religions. The constitution recognizes freedom of religion for individuals, whereas religious communities are placed under the protection of the state; but the constitution explicitly states that they cannot become involved in the political process (by forming a religious party, for instance) or establish faith-based schools. No party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through conservative parties.<31> Turkey prohibits by law the wearing of religious headcover and theo-political symbolic garments for both genders in government buildings, schools, and universities;<104> the law was upheld by the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights as "legitimate" in Leyla Şahin v. Turkey on November 10, 2005.<105>"

[donsu]

9. thank you

nt

[sybylla]

10. In a country scarred by religious turmoil in the past

strict secularism is the only way they will remain a democracy.

I used to work with a man from Turkey. He never talked about his religion. Though in this country, if it isn't christianity, then you're best off not talking about it.

[cascadiance]

11. I actually lived in Çankaya when I was a kid close to the British embassy...

... for about five years. That was just a little further down the hill from that palace.

Turkish culture is very unique there. In Ankara especially (and in parts of Istanbul, it is very westernized there and people wear a lot of western gear. Technically speaking we weren't supposed to have bibles there either, though they looked the other way when we had them in our own collection.

Turkey is VERY strict about religious attire in terms of its rules. No fezes, etc. that you see typifying Turks in movies like Yellow Submarine, etc.

You have to understand that as the Ottoman Empire fell and you had the secular wars that we especially know about that led to the Armenian genocide, that it wasn't just Armenians and Turks that were fighting amongst each other. We also know about the Kurds too. There were also many other sects, Christian and Muslim that still clung to their own tribal identities and that fought amongst each other. In an effort to fast forward westernization, whether you want to criticize it or not, when Ataturk took over he tried to clamp down on a lot of religious expression in the effort to get people to identify more nationally as "Turks" than as members of a religious group. Some would argue that as anti-freedom that we would consider it, that at the time, it did work in getting Turks to jump more into the 20th century than the previous Ottoman Empire rule allowed them to do. But as noted, there are many religious restrictions that still exist today as a result of this, and many argue that it is time to reform Turkey to be more tolerant of diversity. And some argue that many Jews felt the same denial of their culture during many periods in the Soviet Union in a similar fashion when the Soviets wanted the newer generations to identify more as "Soviet nationals" than Jews.

On the other hand, you have still many people that are afraid of extremist Muslims taking charge and taking away their democracy and their secular laws/rules too that they've gotten used to in having more freedom in many respects, even if they've sacrificed it in others. It's kind of odd, because the same military that has done a number of coups and arguably might be as corrupt as all hell and contributed to the mess we are in in Iraq behind the scenes (that Valerie Plame and Sibel Edmonds know about) is viewed as a protector in some segments of Turkish society and a check on any more extremist Muslims from taking charge.

And if you actually look at Turkey under Erdogan, and perhaps now under Gul, they've actually done pretty well in the international marketplace, elevating Turkey's economy quite a bit, and making it so that many international businesses around there actually like having them in charge. It is also their government that's trying to lobby to be a part of the EU too. So it's hard to accept that they are totally on the path towards religious extremism, and yet, part of one wants to keep the military in place to keep a check on the extremist religious groups there too.

So I have mixed feelings on the whole thing. If the world weren't so torn up around them, perhaps this is the way democracy SHOULD work around there, and if it weren't so ruptured around them, I'm guessing that tolerance for the hijab etc. would happen a lot sooner, if that's as far as religious influence of government got. On the other hand, I also think there's some very serious deep corruption that still needs to be weeded out of Turkey that hopefully will happen once we're allowed to do the same thing if and when Sibel Edmonds gets to testify before congress.

Question for others here... Does the Israeli government (supposed to be a Democracy as well) prohibit wearing the Kippah anyplace in government areas? I don't believe it is restricted, is it? It seems that is analagous to not being able to wear a hijab in certain areas in Turkey. I can see why Muslims might want the freedom to do so.