Who's responsible for home schooled kids that don't get an education

[goddess40]

I understand that the parents are at fault for not providing the education they said they were going to, but what about the kids that reach adulthood and can barely read?

Before anyone gets their knickers in a knot let me say that I know the majority of home schoolers do an adequate to great job so please don't take me to task for that. I ask simply because I know a family that is home schooling "because of religious reason" but are not providing any real education other then how to be a victim of the pretend assault on Christians. The state won't step in and the parents will not listen to family members - Still these four kids will grow up and be unable to support themselves.

[billyoc]

1. Jesus. They'll be ok after the rapture. n/t

[goddess40]

5. I'm afraid that might be what the parents are thinking

it breaks my heart because they are bright, sweet kids.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

251. then you become responsible;

when an injustice is discovered, it is those with personal convictions that disallow wrongs to stand by their principles

[whistle]

2. The parents, lack of education and also retarding social skills

[Sanctified]

3. The parents are responsible.

If a parent wants to take on the responsibility of home schooling a child and fails to uphold their end of the bargain then they are going to be the one who is responsible for taking care of their child when their child hits adulthood. The parents you describe will have four 40 year old children still living at home and the mom will be doing their laundry and cooking for them.

[goddess40]

7. But when the kids turn 18 they can push them out the door

when they are on the streets - what should happen to them?

Their parents don't have a pot to piss in now and a I don't see that changing any time soon.

[Sanctified]

9. They could push them out the door now.

These parents are most likely going to keep their kids at home indefinitely, if they were the type to push them out the door at 18 they probably would not want them around now and would be sending them to public school.

[cgrindley]

4. Don't you mean "who" don't get an education?

If you're going to criticize anyone's education...

a) children are not things, so they get a "who" not a "that"

b) homeschooled kids do slighly better than state schooled kids on both ACTs and SATs (the home schooled kids who bother to write said exams that is)

[goddess40]

8. You're correct - but I'm talking about lack of any real education

not just grammatical errors ;)

[cgrindley]

16. What I'd like to see... my predictions...

I'd like to see what percentage of state schooled kids take say the ACT (with essay) and see what their average score is.
and

I'd like to see what percentage of home schooled kids take the same test and what their average score is.

My prediction is that although fewer home schooled kids take the ACT that they get much higher scores than state schooled kids.

My theory is that those few parents who take home schooling seriously, probably go overboard.

[sense]

252. Homeschool testing stats

The average homeschool 8th grade student performs four grade levels above the national average (Rudner study). One in four homeschool students (24.5%) are enrolled one or more grades above age level. Students who have been home schooled their entire lives have the highest scholastic achievement. In every subject and at every grade level of the ITBS and TAP batteries, homeschool students scored significantly higher than their counterparts in public and private schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. And what about the ones who don't bother to take the exams?

[cgrindley]

50. Well, they're a bunch of dunces (nt)

[goddess40]

83. Home schooled kids that take the SAT's and ACT's do better

but what about those that don't take it.

Children that are home schooled by competent parents should do better - one on one education is better then one on thirty.

[muriel_volestrangler]

247. 'That' is acceptable, in British English at least

see eg

It was you that told me
It was you that I gave it to (or, to whom I gave it)
It was the Romans that built this wall.
It is the Romans that we are indebted to for this.

The King’s English, H.W. Fowler

[catmandu57]

6. This has been on my mind also

The people next door homeschool a boy about 11, I've met the mother and I wasn't impressed. I see the kid out mowing the yard and doing yardwork and so help me I can't help but thinking that's going to be his life's work.
I just keep thinking what the kid is facing later in life, he should at least get a chance, this way the best hope he's going to have is the military.

[Sadie4629]

17. One of my homeschooling friends

told me that in an average classroom kids get only a couple of hours of education per day. It makes sense when you think about. Imagine how much you could learn in just a few hours per day, if you were getting one-on-one attention. Chances are that the homeschooled boy is "doing school" either before he does his chore or after.

[cgrindley]

20. Every summer my kids from my first marriage come and stay

with me... mostly so they can go to the beach every day and make the occasional trip to NYC, you know, see the Yanks and so on... this summer, one of their little tasks was to read one book every two days. We didn't get all in their faces about it, but all three of them still managed to read 20 books each ranging from One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch to One Flew Over... to the Inheritors and so on. They read more in two months than they had read the entire year in school. State schools are wimpy things designed for the LCD to pass. Schools need to get a whole lot tougher.

[Sadie4629]

25. Good for your kids!

My kids were avid readers. I know they learned more on their own from the books they read than they ever learned in school.

[cgrindley]

53. I don't think it always used to be that way, though

my dad can still recite passages of Caesar's Gallic Wars in Latin and he grew up without hot water or an indoor toilet (in the far north of Yorkshire in England).

[sense]

261. smarter

Not so much tougher, as smarter. Public schools haven't substantially changed in far too long. Everything else in life moves forward, improves, evolves.... what's up with that?

[Katherine Brengle]

183. It's very dependent upon the parent(s) doing the educating.

That's really what it boils down to - an engaged parent who is intelligent and curious and able can do a great job - a parent who is keeping their child out of school for superstitious or unhealthy reasons is doing harm, imo.

[sense]

253. homeschool

Most public schooled children spend hours every day standing in line, waiting for the teacher to get the others under control, then waiting some more for any shred of learning. Schools have been so dumbed down there is almost no learning going on. Schools are boring and they're really not there to educated. They're there to produce "good citizens", as in compliant, stupid and so bored they're zombies. It's much easier to control people who have no hope and are taught year after year that school is boring and useless.

Most homeschoolers can provide he equivalent of a full days schooling in 2 hours or less. What could be better than one on one? Instant access to the teacher, lots of time to pursue their interests, endless depth of any subject you care to explore. Public school is very shallow, very compartmentalized and much too "standard". I don't know any standard people. Plus, who really wants 30 6 years olds "socializing" their child? Children are locked away from life 6-7 hours a day. Homeschoolers are out in the community living and learning 24/7. Learning shouldn't be something that happens from 9 to 3. It's every day, all day.

[Ilsa]

10. How old are these kids? Are they developmentally delayed?

The parents are supposed to follow a curriculum, aren't they? Aren't they testing the kids? Maybe their church should step in, after all, they won't be capable of writing big checks to them if they don't get an education.

[Sadie4629]

19. It depends

The laws vary from state to state. One of my homeschooling friends was a military wife, so she new the laws all across the country.

I doubt if any state mandates a curriculum.

[sense]

254. homeschool

No state should mandate a curriculum. Why is the US 46th in literacy if those schools are doing such a great job?

[goddess40]

87. The kids are intelligent but are delayed do to lack of education

the in-laws loaned the family some money with the stipulation that the kids attend public school - the kids qualified for IEP's because they were more than a year behind their peers.

The age range is 6-13, and they are thrilled that the 6 year old can recognize some letters.

The church won't help - tried that and all they do is back up the parents. The church wouldn't even let the kids continue in their church's school because they couldn't make the payments. (the kids did periodically go to their parochial school, it's a fringe church with a sub-par school but it was still better than nothing)

[Ilsa]

102. The church wouldn't help them attend their own school?

I guess the church doesn't care if their parishoners raise idiots.

Even my autistic son was naming letters at age 3.

[sense]

255. control

Makes them easier to control and indoctrinate.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

231. Thrilled that the 6 year old can recognize some letters? Jesus Fucking Christ.

My 6 year old car read and write almost at the level of an adult. And I'm still annoyed that she's slightly slower at it than I was at her age. Maybe I should go easier on her.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. It's not that simple.

So far as I'm aware, home-schooled kids are given the same set of assessments that other kids receive and they have to provide proof that they're receiving an adequate curriculum. Otherwise, they're compelled to go to school, just like any other kid.

[bleedingheart]

13. that all depends upon the state you live in..

some states have more restrictions and guidelines, other states have almost no rules governing the home schooling process.

My brother in law worked with a guy who was home schooling his kids because he didn't want them to receive sex education in school.

As the home schooling parent he signed the "vocational" release which allowed them to "intern" at McDonalds...

One son went to prison with his girlfriend for killing a drug dealer. (their love child now lives with my BIL's coworker)
The other son got a girl pregnant and isn't doing so well for himself...

Clearly it was a great idea to pull them out of the public system because of sex education.. :sarcasm:

[lins the liberal]

232. Some private "christian" schools

here in Arkansas are failing their students horribly. As far as I could find out these schools are not regulated in any way by any agency. One school in particular had a woman teaching in the high school who was in special ed when she was in school! Needless to say her own education stopped at graduation from high school.

OTOH I know of another private christian school that does an excellent job. Usually has all of their students reading well above grade level.

Both schools are run by fundalmentalist type churches.

[sense]

256. sex ed.

Agreed. Pull them out for the right reason. So they can get an education.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Actually, they usually aren't tested

State regs vary but I am not aware of many that require testing homeshoolers.

[Nite Owl]

94. NY does

and you have to hand in a curriculum with the books you are using every year. Updates are required quarterly. Both our boys were homeschooled and are in college now with 3.6GPA's

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. That's great

[sense]

257. unaware

Most people are unaware. Until you homeschool, you really have no idea how much you and your children are missing. People believe all sorts of myths started by the NEA and others interested only in themselves and maintaining employment for all those teachers, admin. etc. Research, rather than just repeating some drivel.

[Critters2]

30. They're not tested at all in the two states I've lived in. nt

[Sanctified]

45. In Oregon they only have to do the same set of assessments...

if they want to play sports in the public schools.

[sense]

258. testing

And to homeschool, while not playing sports in school they must test at 3rd, 5th, 8th and 10 grades just like everyone else.

[bleedingheart]

12. The Parents are responsible and when their four kids and their

associated grand kids are living under their roof...they will learn too late who "pays" for not caring for kids adequately.

The state will also be caring for them in the form of welfare payments...etc


I have a neighbor who is "toying" with the idea of educating her kids at home..and in her case she can't even keep herself together...how the hell she will educate them at home....well the odds are not good.

[sense]

259. stats

The actual statistics would suggest otherwise. Obviously not everyone should homeschool. Those who do are pretty invested in doing it well, unless they're just doing it for religious reasons and many of those do an ok job too.

[mudesi]

14. Home schooling should be illegal

I know that may be an extreme stance to take on this issue, but I can't in good conscience support home schooling in any form whatsoever. (Your example of home schooled children not receiving adequate education, in fact, is the deal breaker here).

That's not to say that I believe there are not many, many home schooled people out there who are just fine and, in probably most cases, better off than the rest of the public schooled masses.

That being said, there is something fundamentally wrong with a society that has an education system such that there are people out there who feel the need to keep their children away from it. Whatever the "real" reasons for homeschooling your child may be, it all comes down to "I don't trust the public education system to teach my child."

This is unacceptable, in my opinion. You can still give your child a home schooled education in addition to the public education he/she receives. In fact, that would probably makes things easier. There is no reason to take a child completely out of the education system. I believe that in many cases it leads to an unhealthily isolation and sheltering from the real world that will come as a shock later on.

If public education is broken, then people ought to be working to fix it. Pulling children out of it is not the solution.

[cgrindley]

18. Naw... the state should have a mandated curriculum

and standardized tests should account for at least 50% of a student's score in any subject--and if the classroom score is more than 10% + or - from the state score, the state score should simply be doubled to produce a grade. Anyone teaching a child should require a BA in something, but not necessarily a teaching certificate. But everyone knows that I'm a huge fan of an idealized NCLB so that would hardly be a surprise to anyone.

It shouldn't matter whether kids are educated at home, at public schools or at private schools just as long as the education is equivalent.

Although I would like to see all private schools nationalized, but only for reasons of social justice, not for any concern over education standards.

[sense]

262. nclb

NCLB leaves all but the lowest achievers behind. So many subjects are no longer taught, because they're not "on the test". All day, every day... it's all about the test. It should be all about the children.

[Sadie4629]

22. So by your reasoning

would you outlaw all private schools as well?

I lean toward libertarianism in that I believe people should have the freedom to do whatever they want as long as it isn't infringing on anyone else's rights.

As far as isolation, most areas have homeschool groups that do activities together. The kids get socialization with other kids in the group. Most kids belong to scouting, 4-H, attend Sunday School, etc. And one of my friends claimed that at early ages, most peer pressure is of the negative variety, anyway.

Have you known any homeschooled kids? The ones I've known talk and act more like adults. They are usually very polite and well-mannered, and usually are very successful.

[mudesi]

49. I don't know about you...

But personally, I find children that talk and act like adults to be quite unsettling. Children deserve a childhood, in my opinion.

[Critters2]

61. Agreed. Children are not just small adults. nt

[Sadie4629]

65. By that I merely meant

that they are polite and well-behaved. The out-of-control behavior that I have seen in public schools is not a childhood anyone "deserves."

[sense]

263. sad

Unsettling? Why? Because they like to talk about things that matter instead of what Britney is doing? Kids are so much smarter and more capable than we give them credit for. We need to allow them to grow at their own pace, not some arbitrary, sluglike pace, decided on by bureaucrats.

[Missy Vixen]

118. Yes, I have

>Have you known any homeschooled kids?<

We know one sixteen-year-old whose mother is a teacher, and chooses to homeschool her children. I don't worry about them. The young lady in question has been scoring in the 95th percentile of the SAT's since she started taking them yearly. I do worry about the multiple "homeschooling" families in our development whose children are either taught with the Bible as a textbook, or seem to be isolated from any kind of contact with their peers. I also wonder about the qualifications of the parents to be teaching in the first place. Let's just say that my experiences with those parents haven't overwhelmed me.

Julie

[Tsiyu]

36. Do you have kids?

Say your kids were enrolled in a school system that was full of racists, homophobes and right winger fundies? try dealing with a school system like that without having your kids get hurt in the process.

Parents have children, not the state, and it is the parents right AND responsibility to educate them. Not only that, but all kids are not created to learn well in institutional settings. All four of my homeschooled kids have gone on to college, at least for a year. One graduates this December from a state university and one just entered Emory.

This is not a one-size-fits-all world, and I was glad I had that option.
Most homeschoolers have groups that meet regularly. My kids had plenty of "socialization" and it was far healthier interaction than the "socialization (ahem Lord of the Flies society)" they received in public school.

You can't always "fix" the schools in time to avoid your own kids getting hurt.
Choice is good.

[deadmessengers]

73. Bravo!

You can't always "fix" the schools in time to avoid your own kids getting hurt.

This is a PERFECT example of why homeschooling should remain a legal option. The bottom line is that parents have a duty to their own kids, first and foremost. Fix the schools? Sure. But that takes time - too much time for it to be meaningful for any parent with a child currently in a disaster of a school.

[sense]

267. Yes! Yes!

We cannot sacrifice our own children for the good of the collective. The wrong people are in charge and change isn't coming anytime soon. I fought them for 4 long years. The district director of instruction finally told me I'd have to sue to get them to provide my children with an education at their rate and level of learning, as required by state law. He also said they'd fight it with everything they had. I was dragged into homeschooling kicking and screaming because I didn't know anything about it. It's the absolute best decision we ever made. I'm not against public schools..... I just think they're broken and the so many of the people involved aren't really even interested in what's best for any child.

[mzmolly]

167. Bravo, part deux!

;)

[sense]

264. Yes!

That's so right! Where else in life are you going to be confined all day with people who's only connection to you is that they're the same age? That isolation prepares them for nothing they'll find in the real world. Socialization outside of that environment is so much healthier and there's an added bonus (your entire family gets along better and your children like and respect you).

[Sanctified]

64. I home school because I feel the education system goes against my hippie values.

Homeschooling is an alternative just like a private school and there is this huge misconception that home schooled children all just sit at home and study. Here in Oregon we have a center where you can sign your children up for classes and they participate in a class environment just like public school the only difference is that the parents also attend to participate in their children's learning environment. My children interact with 10-15 other children daily and these other children are being raised with the same values as my children, why would I want to send my kids into an education system thats sole purpose is to turn children into good little workers for corporations.

[ulysses]

70. interesting center you describe.

Sounds a lot like a school to me.

why would I want to send my kids into an education system thats sole purpose is to turn children into good little workers for corporations.

Oy, this again...

[Critters2]

81. I thought that, too.

A group of kids altogether for the purpose of learning? Don't we have a word for that?

[ulysses]

85. it's like the hooey you hear from voucher proponents.

Public funds for private education! But hey, isn't this the "age of accountability"? If public monies are going to private schools, shouldn't some accountability come along with it? Oversight of student achievement? Fewer admission restrictions? Don't you eventually wind up with...a public school?

[Sanctified]

86. It is kind of like a school except it requires parental participation.

And the parents decide the curriculum.

http://www.villagehome.org/aboutus.php

[ulysses]

88. too bad we can't require more parental participation in public ed.

In my last school, the faculty easily outnumbered the parents who showed up for PTSA meetings or parent nights.

But of course the state of the schools is all the fault of the teachers...

[Sanctified]

91. The problem with schools is not the teachers.

It's exactly what you said, parental involvement. Parents have been conditioned for so long that they send their kids off to school and the teachers will do the rest, which clearly is not the case. Several of the people who I do homeschooling with are or were teachers and prefer to have a hands on experience with their children's education.

[ulysses]

96. ok, so explain to me how your center plans to keep from becoming

the little corporate training campus you believe public schools to be.

[Sanctified]

100. Simple, parents choose which classes to take.

This is to supplement your child's learning not to be the sole solution for their education. If a teacher is going against your core values you take another class instead. My major problem with the public education system is that children learn to be consumers and their curriculum is written by for profit corporations.

[ulysses]

131. "their curriculum is written by for profit corporations." - no

I'll agree with you that a lot of corporate-branded (and poorly designed) teaching materials make their way into the schools, but corps don't write the curricula. At least not yet.

[Sanctified]

169. If the educational material is written by a for profit corporation and schools buy the material

and teachers teach from the material then Corporations are controlling what your children learn. The days of teachers deciding what they will or will not teach children are over, teachers today are being pressured to teach children how to pass tests so the school will not lose money.

[ulysses]

175. educational materials are indeed written by corporations,

but they have to follow state standards, which are not written by corps.

[Sanctified]

179. And state standards are set by individuals who are elected using corporate dollars.

When we no longer allow big money to influence elections we can get Corporations out of the educations system. And also take a look at your local school board, check and see how many of those who are members also are big business owners. The Chair of my local school board owns a corporation and has no children in any of the schools, how does someone with no children in the school district get elected to the head of the school board?

[ulysses]

181. ok, so public financing of elections,

not tearing down the schools as corporate bastions.

[Sanctified]

186. I would never advocate the tearing down of public schools or even corporations.

I would advocate a separation of corporation and state similar to our church and state. Just like we would never allow church's to finance a political candidate we should not allow corporations to finance them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

197. No - the people who work for the state dept of education are educators

who are hired, not elected. I have a couple friends who work for our state dept. They are teachers. They are not elected officials. They work with teachers and administrators to develop standards and write curriculum.

The president of our school board where I work is the local president of our Girls and Boys club. That is not a for profit business or a large corporation. The president of the school board where I live is a retired teacher.

To get elected to a school board, you need to be a resident of a school district. I have never heard of a requirement that you have to be a parent of a student enrolled in a district school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

192. No it's not

Teachers and state education departments write curriculum. Publishing companies sell material that is used to teach that curriculum. And even home schoolers buy material from for profit corporations.

[Sanctified]

224. Yes homeschoolers buy material from profit corporations.

But the parents get to review the material beforehand and make sure it fits their values. My daughter is still in preschool but you could not believe the amount of shit that is passed for educational material. And yes for profit corporations dictate what your child learns, when was the last time you heard a teacher say please ignore chapter 13 because it's bullshit?

[tigereye]

145. that sounds so cool!

reminds me somewhat of my son's school, which was founded on similar principles.


Looks like a wonderful education environment. I've bookmarked the page to show to our school staff.


:hi:

[Sanctified]

174. It's very cool.

My wife and I found them when we were researching homeschooling for my daughter and could not be happier. All the parents are extremely open minded and the children are all gifted. I am planning on teaching a class or two next year for teenagers, the pay is terrible but this is something you don't do for the pay.

[sense]

268. not school

Not any school you've seen. The parents and children choose the classes they want to attend and the classes only last 1-2 hours 1 or 2 days a week. There are no silly rules like you have to ask to go pee.... nor are they needed. None of the classes are required and they are mainly taught, not by "certified teachers", but by people who are truly passionate about the subjects they're teaching. The kids are excited to be there and there is very little in the way of age segregation. Children learn together with others who are at their level and are interested in the same subjects.

[LeftyMom]

227. Fuck that.

Why waste so much of my kid's day with a curriculum that's years behind what he knows already and then have to waste time undoing all the bad instruction and bad socialization that goes with even very good schools (and we do not live near anything resembling a very good school.) The local school has been a horrible mess at least since I was a kid and which is going to remain that way until the school district addresses serious structural inequities in the distribution of competent teachers, which won't be anytime soon because the areas with money benefit from the status quo. I could struggle against that system until he reached adulthood and not create any real change, or I can see to it that at least my son gets a quality education. I recognize that my first obligation is to my child.

[sense]

260. extreme?

I don't homeschool to keep my children away from anything, except daily imprisonment. What could they learn about getting along with others and how to live while locked up all day? Let them out. Integrate them back into society. They're worth it.

[qanda]

265. Welcome to DU

Good to see another homeschooler here. :hi:

[sense]

269. We're so under-represented

It's a relief to see you! We've really got to get the word out that it really is a one of the best options.

[conspirator]

289. Government schooling is BRAIN WASHING aimed to turn children into bots n/t

[Sadie4629]

15. I knew lots of homeschoolers

although I sent my kids to public schools. One family I knew believed in John Holt's theories. They learned through everyday life experiences, I guess. Learned fractions by baking cookies, learned what they needed to know at their own pace, and when they wanted to learn. One of their daughters began reading at age three, and the other one didn't know how until she was well past the age where she would have been labeled learning disabled in the public school system. Both eventually went to public schools, starting about in seventh or eighth grade. The older daughter was a National Merit Commended Student, and the other was always on the Honor Roll. Both are now college graduates.

Guess the moral of the story is that if kids are determined to learn, they will learn.

[mzmolly]

141. I know a former teacher who said Holt changed his entire philosophy.

He resigned from his teaching position, and now homeschools his ten year old daughter.

[kath]

170. yes, lots of teachers' (or ex-teachers') kids are homeschooled. David Guterson's family is probably

the most "famous" example. (author of "Snow Falling on Cedars", other novels, plus a book on homeschooling called "Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense". At the time he wrote "Family Matters", Guterson was a high school teacher whose sons were being homeschooled.)

[qanda]

242. John Holt is dead

But you may be talking about John Taylor Gatto who was the New York city and state teacher of the year and now promotes homeschooling.

[mzmolly]

248. I was talking about the former teacher I know.

;) HE homeschools his daughter, and was influenced by Holt. Both Gatto and Holt are former teachers who have been supportive of homeschooling (sounds like you knew that?) :hi:

[qanda]

250. Oh, sorry about that

I totally read that wrong. Yes, I know all about Holt and Gatto. I have read just about all their books and they encourage me to keep at it. Sometimes the progress is slow but every day is worth it when I see my children learn and grow. Hope you have a wonderful year and keep up the good work.

[mzmolly]

298. Thanks! You as well. I remember being so afraid that my child

would not learn to read, given I wasn't a "teacher." However, she reads beautifully. We used a good phonics curriculum, and had worked on phonics from a young age.

Homeschooling is a challenging experience, but really wonderful - most days. ;) My child has so much time to be creative, she's really independent and very self motivated, when SHE is interested in something. I happen to stress the three "r's" so to speak, and dabble use Core Knowledge as a foundation for our education. But, if my daughter is really not interested in a subject (aside from the essentials) I don't press it. In spite if my choice to use a foundation/curriculum, I support unschooling and the philosophy behind it. I think it's lovely, and I've seen great success.

Peace :hi:

[sense]

272. John Holt and John Taylor Gatto

My heroes!!!

[sense]

271. Happens all the time

People need to break out of their comfort zones and look around. Here's a great site: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm John Taylor Gatto was a New York City and State teacher of the year...... and he's so sorry for all the harm he caused by going along with the program.

[sense]

270. Kids are born to learn

Kids are so curious and so happy to learn... until you send them to school. My son was reading at 3 years old.... and I stupidly sent him to school because I didn't know any better. By the time I took him out he was a completely different child. Angry. Really angry. Took a year to get him back!

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. We are all responsible

We need to lobby for oversight of homeschoolers. We owe it to these kids.

I disagree that the majority do an adequate job. I have seen very few do an adequate job. I know a couple families who do a wonderful job but many more who don't provide even a minimum of education. I knew one family several years ago with a single parent mom who went to work all day while her kids stayed home and played video games. I knew another single mom whose only textbook was a bible.

We need to push for state regs that mandate oversight of homeschoolers. Even one family that doesn't educate their kids adequately is a problem we should not tolerate. We need to mandate that homeschooled kids take the same state tests that their public school peers take. If their families really are educating them, they should have no objection to oversight and testing.

[Critters2]

29. Hear! Hear!!

I know of a homeschooling family whose daughter doesn't want to learn to read. She's 11, and can't read a word. The parents say she'll learn when she's ready. When you hear her talk, it sounds like some power thing aimed at her parents. She has no intention of learning to read, if you can imagine, and says so. Of course, this raises all kinds of other questions about the family dynamic. But sooner or later, she'll need to read. Someone needs to light a fire under her parents to make it happen--or find out why it doesn't.

Uneducated children become uneducated adults, and the community will bear that responsibility. Thus, the community bears responsibility for education.

[Sadie4629]

39. Sounds like the parent may be adherents to John Holt's theory

Sooner or later the child herself will understand that she needs to read, and will probably learn very rapidly and catch up to her age peers within months. It is even possible that she can already read, and simply isn't telling anyone.

[Critters2]

42. There's no reason to think she'll just decide to read

She doesn't need to read. She's figured this out.

If there's a "theory" behind this, that theory is bullshit.

[Sadie4629]

48. Her need to read may be as simple

as needing to read the TV listings in the local paper. When she figures out the advantage that readers have in everyday life, she will decide to read.

Check out John Holt. I looked into his educational theories a long time ago, at the urging of one of my friends. He believes that children of normal intelligence learn (kind of) automatically. Life requires that people have certain skills, and they learn them as they need them. You can learn fractions by cooking, for instance, addition and subtraction by grocery shopping. That sort of thing.

[Critters2]

59. She should be reading by now. Apparently, otheres are reading things

to her, rather than expecting her to read. That needs to stop.

Mostly, she needs to go to school.

[Tsiyu]

188. Don't give up on her yet

My daughter was a child who hated reading and writing. Seriously. We fought until I read some Holt and others who made sense by saying....wait. The school wanted to put her in Special Ed.

I pulled her out of school, worked with her on the things she did love, and when I took her back to be tested for placement in the eighth grade, the school suggested I allow her to enter as a tenth grader.

She has won awards for her writing.

Never give up on a kid.

[sense]

276. read to your kids

Reading to your children is bad???????

[ulysses]

60. you certainly can learn fractions through cooking, etc.

Couple of things though, beginning with:

Lots of people don't cook.

If a child is only going to learn to read what he feels the need to read, with what are we left? A society of people who can read TV Guide, and...that's about it.

What about the child with a learning or cognitive disability?

[Sadie4629]

71. Most homeschooling families that I know

had a full-time parent in the home. There was plenty of time for cooking, and time is usually the main reason for someone to not cook for him/herself.

If you can read the TV Guide, you can read other things. Kids can learn to read by reading anything.

One of my friends had a daughter who would have been labeled "learning disabled" in school. She actually had a different learning style. When her mom taught in the way the daughter could learn most easily, there were no problems, no frustration, no tears, and no humiliation.

If a child has a cognitive ability he or she would probably flourish in an environment in which he or she was not labeled. Most of those kids who are in public schools understand that they are different in a way that makes their age peers see them as inferior. What could be better than learning in a nurturing environment, taught by the people who love you best?

[ulysses]

75. oh lord...

She actually had a different learning style.

Tell me about that. What was her "learning style"?

When her mom taught in the way the daughter could learn most easily, there were no problems

I doubt that, not if mom was teaching her what she would have been taught in school.

Most of those kids who are in public schools understand that they are different in a way that makes their age peers see them as inferior.

This is true. However, greater self-esteem isn't going to do squat to address the fundamental problem.

What could be better than learning in a nurturing environment, taught by the people who love you best?

Learning in a nurturing environment, taught by people who know what they're doing.

[deadmessengers]

78. My daughter spent 2 years being taught by credentialed educators...

...that had no idea whatsoever what they were doing. They were worse than useless. You're presuming that all teachers are good teachers - the state of our education system proves conclusively that is not the case.

[ulysses]

80. I'm not, acually.

I've known my share of teachers who shouldn't have been anywhere near a classroom. On the other hand, I also know that teachers are hardly the only people who influence the state of public education.

I very much suspect that the percentage of homeschoolers who don't know what they're doing is greater than that of public teachers that don't.

[deadmessengers]

90. My experience says otherwise.

I've been a homeschooling parent for 5 years, and I spent 3 years working in an inner-city public school district. I've known hundreds of homeschooling families, and I've worked alongside at least as many credentialed teachers. Yes, there are homeschooling families that probably shouldn't be doing so. There are also classroom teachers who, for the good of society, need to go back to working at WalMart or whatever the hell it was they were doing before they decided to teach. I can tell you, without the slightest reservation, that there are more bad public school teachers than homeschooling families.

The reason is simple: motivation. An unmotivated, burnt-out teacher is NEVER a good one. But there are no unmotivated homeschoolers, because in the US, every last one of them has the option open to not do so any more. Every last homeschooling family has to sacrifice to homeschool, and many have to fight their local edu-crats for their right to do so. And, if burnout sets in, the kids can always go back to public school.

[ulysses]

95. as a percentage or sheer numbers?

I can tell you, without the slightest reservation, that there are more bad public school teachers than homeschooling families.

I suspect there are simply more public school teachers than there are homeschoolers, but I wasn't talking about sheer numbers.

But there are no unmotivated homeschoolers

Pretty bald claim. I'm not buying your rationale - burnt-out teachers have the option to leave the profession as well.

[deadmessengers]

104. By percentage

I'm talking by percentage, and my claim is based on my own experience, and I stand behind it 100%. As far as burnt-out teachers having the option of leaving the profession, I'll say this: they have a powerful financial motive to stick around - their salaries, health insurance and pensions. I understand that teachers are pathetically underpaid compared to the education they must have in order to qualify to teach in a public school, but if you have bills and debts to pay, and a damn-near-guaranteed (and when was the last time you heard about a tenured teacher being fired for anything other than gross misconduct?) job, would you voluntarily leave in this economy?

Let's put it another way:

Public school teachers have a financial incentive to stick around, no matter what. Burnt-out teachers who see their pensions on the horizon have a reason to just stick it out a few more years, and go through the motions until they can retire.
Homeschoolers have a financial disincentive to do what they do, but choose to do it anyway. This means that a homeschooler's motivation is EXTREMELY relevant, because of the financial and personal sacrifices involved in homeschooling a child.

[ulysses]

122. ok. you stand behind your anecdotals, and I'll stand behind mine.

:shrug:

Homeschoolers have a financial disincentive to do what they do, but choose to do it anyway.

That doesn't mean that all have the same motivation. Besides, the financial disincentive only kicks in if you're actually buying materials, paying for field trips, and what have you. I'm aware than many homeschoolers do, in fact, do this. I'm also aware of many who don't.

[deadmessengers]

142. I've never met a homeschooler that wasn't buying materials.

I sure as hell am - about 20,000 bucks worth of education-related expenses over the last 5 years.

[ulysses]

154. I have.

I don't doubt that you've spent that, for the record. It's not across the board, though, any more than 100% of p.s. teachers are paragons of educational virtue.

[sense]

278. Tenure and benefits

They're not leaving. It's a huge problem. They aren't there for the kids.......

[Mind_your_head]

208. Hear! Hear! You are EXACTLY correct!

I will NEVER understand why 'some people' get such a bug up their butt about homeschooling. Most homeschooled children do exceptionally well. The same can't be said about public schooled - that most do EXCEPTIONALLY well.

I can't help but wonder if the family in the OP is fictionalized, b/c ~ as you say ~ the parents will be MOTIVATED to learn how to be better teachers rather quickly, or they will see that 'this isn't working for us' and will send the children back to public school.

[Mind_your_head]

209. Hear! Hear! You are EXACTLY correct!

I will NEVER understand why 'some people' get such a bug up their butt about homeschooling. Most homeschooled children do exceptionally well. The same can't be said about public schooled - that most do EXCEPTIONALLY well.

I can't help but wonder if the family in the OP is fictionalized, b/c ~ as you say ~ the parents will be MOTIVATED to learn how to be better teachers rather quickly, or they will see that 'this isn't working for us' and will send the children back to public school.

[sense]

277. test scores

Test scores say otherwise. Repeating myths doesn't make them real.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. And I know a lot of really poor parents

But that doesn't mean I would recommend we stop giving birth to children.

I have known more than my fair share of bad mechanics. But next time my car needs work, I will be taking it to a mechanic.

I also know some really bad doctors. But I won't stop seeing a doctor when I am sick because of a few bad ones. Actually this is my favorite argument about homeschooling. Would you refuse to see a medical professional and cure yourself or your children of disease? Then why do you think you can be a teacher? We are highly trained professionals, just like doctors. Yet we have all these parents who think they can do better than we do, with no training. :eyes:

[deadmessengers]

120. They don't *think* they can do better. They ARE doing better.

Read the rest of this thread for all the reasons why homeschooling works. And, I'll keep reiterating this: Every time you hear about a kid who graduated high school as a functional illiterate, remember that that kid was taught by trained teachers for twelve years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. Prove it

Test these homeschooled kids and allow us to compare their achievement with their public school counter parts. Unless we do that, we really don't know for a fact that homeschooled kids do better. A few who score well on the ACT or win the national spelling bee are not proof that all homeschoolers are smarter or more advanced. My best friend in high school got a full scholarship to Harvard. That doesn't mean ALL my friends were brilliant.

Every time you hear about a kid who graduated from high school and went on to succeed in a top university, remember that kid was taught by trained teachers for 12+ years.

[deadmessengers]

146. I DO test my daughter

and not only is she performing well above grade level, but above her peers in the disaster of a public school we were forced to remove her from. It's very simple - she was below grade level when being taught by 2 successive incompetent burnouts, and isn't anymore. It did take a whole year to get her caught up, though.

And I think you're missing my point - my point is that the fact that homeschoolers have higher average scores on the SAT and ACT demonstrate that there is a point to homeschooling - that it can work, that it does work, and that it IS a valid educational alternative to failing public schools. The canard that "you have to be a college graduate to teach" is easily refuted by the fact that our schools are STILL graduating illiterates.

[proud2BlibKansan]

190. And so are homeschoolers

I know more illiterate than literate homeschoolers. A few high SAT scores don't prove homeschooling works better than public education. There are high SAT scores among public school students too, you know.

You are the one missing the point. You obviously have an axe to grind because your child had a bad experience in public school.

I had a bad experience with a doctor. I didn't stop seeking competent medical care when I need it however.

[sense]

280. Lots of proof

There is proof, lots of proof. Just because you're not willing to research before you start talking, doesn't mean a thing. Do you think most homeschoolers do this on a whim? We are with our kids 24/7 because it works so well and they are thriving! Most people who tell me they could never do it.....they also say they couldn't take being with their kids all day...... I couldn't stand mine when I took him out of school either..... but after a few months......he started to re-discover how great learning was.

[sense]

279. Oh, my god!

Highly trained professionals???? Trained in crowd control and indoctrination. Who do you think is more interested in my children and their education. Me. I don't claim to know how to teach in depth every subject known to man, but I can certainly find the resources to provide my children with a house full of books, mentors, teachers, and whatever else they need. What did you major in? What subject. Most teachers major in teaching. That's not a subject. That's a questionable method of delivering information and controlling what children learn. Teachers failed me and they failed my children. Time after time. I'm not going to turn my children over to strangers to raise. My son was ready for algebra when he entered kindergarten, because he loved math. Teacher after teacher refused to teach him. After four years of being "taught" how to add, subtract and divide....... he hated math with a passion. Imagine sitting all day, every day with someone trying to stuff the alphabet down your throat year after year. You'd be insane!

[Sadie4629]

89. Learning styles

Some people are tactile learners. My son was like that. I noticed that he traced numbers and letters with his finger to sort of "own" them, or something. A cousin had an LD child who was in a program where they learned their letters by tracing them in the sand--you know, feeling the letters.

Some learn through hearing. Some through reading directions. Some by doing. Some by watching someone else do something.

My mother tried unsuccessfully to show me how to knit when I was a little girl. Finally she bought me a book with pictures and step-by-step instructions. Within a very short time I was able to knit successfully, and now I can knit literally anything.

You have to know that you have a particular way in which you can best learn new skills. It's the same with any skill. We are all individuals, and we can have different ways of learning.

I don't remember that girl's particular learning style, because it was a long time ago, but trust me, the mom did all kinds of testing, and came up with the best method to teach her daughter the exact same things she hadn't been learning in the public school.

"This is true. However, greater self-esteem isn't going to do squat to address the fundamental problem."

I really don't know what you mean by this. If a child is intellectually challenged, he can still learn, maybe not as much, and at a slower pace. Why could a parent not do what he/she had to to address that problem?

[ulysses]

92. oh, I thought you might mean something else.

Tactile, audio, visual, etc - we already do that in public schools.

"This is true. However, greater self-esteem isn't going to do squat to address the fundamental problem."

I really don't know what you mean by this.

I mean that putting a cognitively impaired child in a situation where they aren't labeled still leaves a cognitively impaired child. Teachers have many strategies to help children with those disabilities learn, whether or not they're labeled.

If a child is intellectually challenged, he can still learn, maybe not as much, and at a slower pace. Why could a parent not do what he/she had to to address that problem?

How prepared is the parent to address it?

[Sadie4629]

97. How prepared is the parent to address it?

A parent who wants to, can prepare him/herself as well as any school of education. Teaching isn't rocket science. (And I say that as a graduate of a College of Education myself.)

"Tactile, audio, visual, etc - we already do that in public schools."

Yes, but do you test every child? Can you tailor the curriculum to fit the learning style of each child? Doubtful. A parent can do that, and most will.

[ulysses]

99. ah yes, the "any fool can be a teacher" canard.

Figured we'd get to that sooner or later. :D

By the way, if your friend's child simply learned better, say, by listening than by seeing, there's no way she'd have been labeled, at least not for the purposes of special ed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. Yes I can. In fact that is exactly what Ulysses and I are trained to do.

We are special ed teachers. Our specialized training is in tailoring curriculum to fit the individual learning style of each of our students. Unless a parent has a masters degree in our field they aren't experts at doing what we do.

[tigereye]

155. to be fair, most teachers work hard to tailor curriculum to children's needs

and learning styles. Whether they are required to, or not.

[sense]

275. so sad

You must have been drinking the kool aid......... she needs to read, and she will. Do some research. Quit listening to the indoctrinated. We all need to start thinking for ourselves....

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. That's one of the stranger aspects of homeschooling

There is a tendency for some of them to let their kids decide what they want to learn and when they want to learn it. The problem I see with that is life isn't like that. I can't get up tomorrow and decide I don't want to go to work. When I get to work, I can't tell my boss what I want to do or refuse to do what I am asked because I just don't want to do it. Kids need to learn self-discipline and that life is full of having to do things you don't really want to do.

[Critters2]

44. I think this all the time...

What'll they do when the boss tells them they MUST do something for the first time? Whether their parents like it or not, they need to learn to meet others' expectations. Or get ready to fail.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. It backfired on a family I know

Their son wanted to start driving. He was 14. He had a hard time understanding that (for the first time in his life) he couldn't learn something he wanted to learn. You can't even get a learner's permit in his state until you are 15.

[Critters2]

67. Yep. Sooner or later, they'll have to face reality. nt

[sense]

283. They won't learn about it in school.

Locked away from the world.

[sense]

282. living in a cave

Must have been living in a cave. Children learn all day every day if they're allowed to and given the time.

[sense]

281. Yikes!

What the heck do you think our lives are like???? Because they get to learn the things they're interested in when they're interested in it.....we can't be good parents? There is no discipline or control in our houses??? Myths! Put forth by NEA. The absolute best way to retain anything you learn is to have an interest in it and to be allowed to learn as much as you want about it. Schools don't allow that! They actively avoid that. Teachers no longer teach the children, they simply teach the curriculum they planned and nothing more.

[Tsiyu]

201. Aha...the authoritarian approach to larnin'

If that's the way you enjoy teaching, more power to you.

The wonderful thing about allowing a child to follow his or her interests is that he or she gains all sorts of "required skills" in the pursuit of knowledge.

My two oldest were interested in aviation, then the military (their way of rebelling against a hippie mom). Because of those interests, they were studying pilot manuals at 12 years old, learning complex weather and physics concepts, studying the history of various nations' military. Reading on a college level.

Discipline? lol From 13 to 18 they were CAP members, attaining the rank of Cadet Commander and Assistant to the Senior leader respectively. If you don't believe they had to keep their shoes shined and obey commands, google Civil Air Patrol.

One of those twins went on to become a Ranger with the 3/75th. Google them and talk to me about homeschoolers not having discipline.

I don't dislike all public schools nor do I like all homeschooling parents. Working together would be nice, but in most systems that is unlikely. It is an either/or proposition.

My uncle is an educational administrator in CA who has started several charter schools that allow homeschooling parents to have some public facilities and classes to use. People access the system as they need it with curriculum (god, I hope I spelled that correctly lol you're a teacher for Jiminy God!) supplied by the Charter school. I wish I had had his programs available to my kids.

In the end I have to ask: Why would fostering the enjoyment of learning be a bad thing to any adult? Why would that not be welcomed by any child?

[MUSTANG_2004]

233. Life IS like that in my family

If you own a business or are an independent contractor, life is EXACTLY like that. You do get to decide what you want to do, and how you want to adjust your business as the world around you and your interests change.

My kids are homeschooled, and, while they spend an hour or two a day on the "basics", the rest of their day is spent pursuing what interests them. Their independent learning instills more self-discipline than what the schools enforce. And I'd much rather have my kids growing up knowing that they can shape their lives to be spent in the manner of their choosing, instead of being trained into an authoritarian regimentation.

[sense]

274. There are no standardized children

Everyone learns at a different pace. When she needs or wants to read, she'll be doing it in no time! My first child learned to read at 3, the second one at 8 or 9. Yes, I was freaked out about the second one..... but they're simply two different people. Both very bright, with different learning styles and interests.

[Sadie4629]

31. Oh, please, no!

Homeschooling allows the parent to tailor their children's education to fit their learning styles, their interests, their lifestyle, etc. To mandate a curriculum or testing would take a lot of the creativity out of home education. All parents want their children to succeed, and mandated curriculum or testing won't guarantee success, anyway. (Look how many kids sit in public school classrooms every day and fail, are bored, end up dropping out, or zoning out.)

Is it possible that the single mom was doing homeschool in the evenings. Education can take place at any hour of the day. Doesn't have to be
8:00--3:15.

And--do kids learn better reading Dick & Jane than the Bible? I don't necessarily think so.

[Johonny]

46. yeah but a mandated curriculum

Will at least allow a home schooling parent some standard, pace by which to judge if their child is keeping up with their peers. There's no penalty for the kid learning ahead of his peers but there sure are penalties fot the kids lagging their age level curriculum. It's not as if the current US curriculum pace is overwhelming and I imagine a serious home schooling parent will easily exceed it.

[Sadie4629]

63. What are the penalties for a child lagging

behind their age peers in public schools? Reading levels are pretty arbitrary. Who says a kid needs to read at a third grade level when they are eight. What if they don't read at that level until they are 12, or even older? Besides, not every fifth grader sitting in a public school classroom reads at a fifth grade level. Kids learn at different rates. The child who simply cannot, for whatever reason, keep up with his age peers will be a lot more miserable in school than at home, with loving and supportive parents encouraging him to do his best, whatever that may be.

[proud2BlibKansan]

202. And if that same child fails in the work world,

it is so unfair to hold him accountable and expect him to do his job as well as his co-workers. :sarcasm:

[sense]

284. so sad, yet again

Research. Try learning something new. Don't just keep repeating myths or reciting the lies you've been told.

[ulysses]

47. erm...

(public schools don't use Dick and Jane any more. they haven't for a long, long time.)

[Sadie4629]

56. Oops!

Guess my age is showing!

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. What Math and Science is that child learning with the bible?

I will also defend Dick and Jane reading programs (even though we don't use them anymore) as better material for teaching reading because the language in them is more reflective of our 21st century language. The bible is not. We are not preparing kids for life in biblical times.

I know for a fact that the working mom was NOT teaching her kids. They enrolled in our school and were very far behind. It also isn't good for a child's brain development to play video games for 8 hours a day.

Kids who are homeschooled can demonstrate competence (if they have learned anything). They don't need to be tested on particular subject matter. Can they read, can they write coherently, can they compute at an appropriate level? That testing doesn't interfere with a homeschooling curriculum. If their families are really teaching them, they shouldn't object.

[Sadie4629]

74. A creative parent

can probably figure out lots of ways to teach math by using the Bible, or any story book, for that matter.

Example:
Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. Count out thirty chips.

Example:
The animals boarded the ark two by two. How high can you count by twos?

Example:
The ark was (whatever the dimensions were.) What was the square footage?

And there are versions of the Bible that are written in modern English.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. And all home schooling parents are that creative!

:sarcasm:

[mzmolly]

111. What do we do to "oversee" public schools that fail our children?

We need to mandate that homeschooled kids take the same state tests that their public school peers take. If their families really are educating them, they should have no objection to oversight and testing.

Paul Wellstone wrote about the failures of a test based educational system in his book the Conscience of a Liberal. I happen to agree with him. Many parents don't teach to the test. Many educators object to such a system as well.

http://www.educationrevolution.org/paulwellstone.html

In Minnesota, in the first round of testing, 79% of low-income students failed the reading portion of the high school exit exam and 74% failed the math part. ...

Even if all children had the opportunity to learn the material covered by the test, we still cannot close our eyes to the hard evidence that a single standardized test is not valid or reliable as the sole determinant in high stakes decisions about students.

Sorry, the public education system needs a major tending to before one insists that homeschoolers follow the same failed methods.

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. Their families should not object to oversight if they really are teaching their kids

I stand by that core belief. I also explained in another post in this thread that testing homeschoolers doesn't mean they have to teach the same curriculum. It is possible to test for basic grade level competence without testing over a specific curriculum. For example, every 3rd grader should be able to read, write a simple paragraph and solve math problems involving regrouping. Every 10th grader should be able to read a novel and write a multi page response/reaction. Homeschoolers should not object to general competence testing.

[mzmolly]

117. There are many different educational philosophies. Not all teachers teach to the test.

I object to standardized testing because it doesn't take into consideration the fact that children are not cattle.

I know of a child who did not learn to read until he was ten. He learned in a couple days and graduated Harvard. Some people practice delayed education and believe in it deeply. There is evidence that this is an effective means to educate.

And, what do we do with the 79% of low income/Minneapolis students who can't read by the time they graduate high school?

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. We enrich their home environment

Socio economic status is a larger factor in determining achievement than any other variable.

Testing holds home schoolers accountable. Because there are the ones who allow their kids to play video games all day while Mom is at work, we need to monitor what goes on in the home school. Parents who really are teaching should not object. I would think they would be anxious to prove that their children are the bright and capable students they like to brag about. What a perfect opportunity to show them off!

[mzmolly]

124. Testing is not about accountability, it's about testing.

People like yourself need to address the lacking public education system before suggesting that homeschoolers need "accountability."

Further, for ME homeschooling is not about showing off my "bright" student, it's about having her in an environment that takes her entire person/learning style into account. In other words, I'd like her to learn in an "enriched environment." This is something public schools can not accomplish.

That said, in the state I live I am required to test my child in third grade. I am not required to report the test results.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. My school makes AYP every year

My students make AYP every year. We started state tests here 10 years ago. My kids (special ed students) have reached the standard every single year. So yes, I am qualified to speak to accountability in education. I am proud of my work and my accomplishments. I gladly share my success.

If your child is really doing that well, you should have no objection to testing her and proving you really are educating her. If it is good enough for public schools, it should be good enough for home schoolers.

[mzmolly]

132. I have a problem with one size fits all education.

And, it has nothing to do with my child "alone." Ever had a student of yours fail a test? Do you use a variety of math curriculums or a single approach? How about reading? Does each student learn in the same specific way, using the exact curriculum/approach?

[proud2BlibKansan]

191. So do I

That's why I chose to be a special ed teacher. I guess you don't understand what kind of training I have or you wouldn't ask these silly questions.

[mzmolly]

195. I am familiar with your training.

And, the questions remain.

[proud2BlibKansan]

199. Oh that's right

I forgot you know how to do my job as well (probably better) than I do.

And damn, when I think of all the money I spent on tuition . . .

[mzmolly]

212. And, I forgot

the fact that you know my child and her learning style/needs better than I do.

And, I forgot that you can educate her (in spite of her sensory issues) in a loud/distracting environment better than I can in a quiet, one on one setting.

And, I forgot that my child's tics would not disturb the other children in your special ed class who may have sensory and distractability issues as well.

And, I forgot that no child under your direction has ever failed a test.

And, I forgot that my daughters need for hands on curriculum and her issues with fine motor skills are not contrary.

And, I forgot that you can take into account her weaknesses (without making her feel inadequate) while nurturing her individual brilliance.

And, I forgot that you can accomplish all of this while leaving her self esteem in tact by not comparing her to other children.

And I forgot that you can keep her from comparing herself to others as well.

And, I forgot that you can encourage her to learn at her own pace while feeling great about herself in the process.

Yeah, I forgot all that.

[Shaktimaan]

228. That's commendable,

but I think the point mzmolly made is that many public schools do not meet standards of excellence, for one reason or another. I can't blame many parents for wanting to homeschool their kids. Many public schools in this nation are in crisis and many public school students are not getting an adequate education. And statewide standards for ps are often not really met. The NY state regents testing for NYC's 5 boroughs being dumbed down so that their students had a chance of passing is a good example.

While it's important to look towards reforming the system for everyone's benefit, I can understand the rationale behind a parent's desire to teach their kid at home if they did not feel that the ps education they were receiving was up to snuff.

[sense]

286. They're my children

No testing is required to prove that my children are learning. My sixteen year old speaks 4 languages and is learning a fifth. There is no possibility that he would have been allowed to learn that in school. None.

[sense]

285. Why?

Because some bureaucrat said so? Public schoolers should have to pass the tests, not just take them. I have no objection to testing, but do you know why schools must do it? It's because they have so many children to teach, grouped together only by age, as opposed to something important, that unless they have the child write answers on a page, they don't have a clue what that child has learned. As parents, we know our children. We talk to them all day, spending so much time on a daily basis interacting one on one, that we can't help but know exactly where they are in the learning process. They aren't sheep in a herd. They are individuals and should be treated as such.

[tigereye]

151. but many parents have opted for home or open, alternative schooling

since they do not like the idea of the state deciding these matters. A neighbor of mine uses a charter school curriculum to home school and she seems to do an excellent job. Her kids are well beyond age and grade norms.

Bureaucratic regulation turns off many parents, and the desire for different options is what drives this. Although I think NCLB was theoretically a good concept, it has caused many parents to dislike public schools even more.


I say this as someone who has spent a great deal of time in public schools, was educated in both private and public school settings, and who knows many public school teachers. I chose to send my child to an alternative, progressive private school, since I felt that he deserved the kindest, gentlest and most supportive educational option that I could afford.

[loudsue]

249. I disagree. The minute the government steps in to "regulate" something,

you face the danger of wingnuts forcing you to teach religion, or taking your kids away because you're not teaching "creationist" theory instead of evolution.

The stats have shown that most home-schooled children do AT LEAST average on all the tests, and I say that "regulators" are only as good as the bush administration.

:kick:

[sense]

273. Start with the public schools

We owe the kids in public schools oversight. They're being harmed and dumbed down endlessly day after day after week after week.....for years. Do you have any idea what the failure rate is in public school? Have you tried to hire any "high school graduates"? I feel so sorry for them.

[FearofFutility]

24. What about the public schooled kids that don't get an adequate

education. I think they out number, by far, the homeschooled who don't receive an adequate education. Think about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Public school kids also greatly outnumber homeschooled kids

So of course more are going to have problems learning. Simple math.

[FearofFutility]

33. Exactly my point. The concern should be about the inadequate

education that most of our children receive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. We should be concerned about ANY child not receiving an adequate education

regardless of where they go to school.

[ulysses]

35. most? really?

Tell me more.

[FearofFutility]

51. Thanks to no child left behind,

Our children are taught to take standardized tests, not to think critically. Have you seen the you tube video of Ms. South Carolina answering a question regarding why a large percentage of American children can't find the US on a map? She is the poster child of education in the US.

[ulysses]

62. yes, NCLB sucks. proposing mass homeschooling as the fix, however,

is like cutting off your foot because you have a leg cramp.

[FearofFutility]

69. I'm not proposing mass homeschooling.

The OP asked who will be responsible for homeschoolers who receive an inadequate education. The essence of my response was why focus just on homeschoolers that receive a substandard education.

[kath]

106. I think the poster is perfectly capable of understanding percentage or proportion vs,

raw number of kids.

You're really being insulting.

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. Oh sorry Mom

[Freddie Stubbs]

234. Is the PERCENTAGE of homeshcooled kids who have problems learning higher than the percentage of kids

in public schools who have problems learning? :shrug:

[bleedingheart]

211. Their parents should be involved

and that is the problem.

A lot of parents out there are not involved in their child's education.

They have a number of excuses..

They work
They are busy
Their favorite TV program is on...

some are valid reasons...other as just plain selfish.

However failing schools are a symptom of a bad local environment (economics typically) and of apathy in the community.

The best public schools are those with high rates of parent participation.

[Lex]

27. Homeschoolers still have to take our state's regular standardized tests

to prove they are keeping up with their regular grade level skills.

[Critters2]

32. They don't here. nt

[Ron Green]

37. Maybe the Television Industry should give jobs to the ones who

were educated by Television.

[AZBlue]

38. The districts and/or state education departments should be, but they aren't.

At least they aren't here in AZ and I have a feeling it's the same all over. I was shocked when I found that out. I realize they are already given a lot and not enough resources, but someone should be responsible for oversight and no one is.

The home-schooled children should also be subjected to the same testing that other children are for graduation, advancement and degrees.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with home-schooling - I work with the Arizona education market and have seen very successful examples of it. But, there are also children who are really losing out and that should be stopped.

[ThomWV]

40. They are not one bit different than drop outs - and we all pay

[Sadie4629]

43. Do you mean all homeschoolers?

In which case you are just plain wrong.

[FearofFutility]

58. I think he meant homeschoolers that don't receive an adequate

education. That is the question the OP asked. I may be wrong,though.

[FearofFutility]

54. Exactly n/t.

[sense]

287. Now there's a brilliant assessment!

Do all asian people look the same to you too?

[librechik]

55. In my state (Colo) home school kids have to take a test every other year

to make sure they're keeping up with the kids in regular school. Of course, my kid always tested WAY AHEAD of his grade level every time. He's now working as a technical editor in Australia for $60,000 a year (first job ever!)

The education you often get in public schools doesn't necessarily help anyone get a job anyway. Parents have to help out, one way or another. You can't rely on the schools to provide a proper education like they used to. What jobs are you talking about, anyway? The ones they're shipping to India? I bet a home schooled kid can deliver pizza as well or better than a public school educated kid.

We are screwed. At least with my kids at home they didn't get exposed to the RW propaganda, empty hours and bullying that so characterizes our schools today, sadly.

[Critters2]

66. I don't deliver pizza.

But my job REQUIRES that things be done properly and according to a schedule. I have deadlines that MUST be met.

Oh, and dealing with RW propaganda and bullying (of which there is much less in public schools than when I was a kid), also prepared me for the real world. I learned early on that not everyone thinks or acts like me and my family. That's been important for me, as I serve and represent a progressive faith community in a conservative world. Can't imagine how I would have been prepared for this in a sheltered environment.

Critters
proud alum of 16 years of public education

[Tsiyu]

230. Hey! You kids get offa my lawn!

Oops. Sorry.


Couldn't resist....:)

[bleedingheart]

215. I am sorry your public schools were so bad

my kids go to the same district I did...

There is no RW propaganda.
There is almost no bullying compared to 20+ years ago...a great improvement.

..and there are no empty hours...they are busy pretty much all day.

Public schools are typically a reflection of the local community.

It is pretty evident in our state that if you have a healthy community ...you have a good public school.

Where the community is suffering or in disarray...the schools are not doing well.

[deadmessengers]

68. Ah, another homeschooler-bashing thread.

It happens every once in a while around here. The contempt that I see here for homeschooling families is just staggering. I will say this: My family homeschools our daughter, and we have done so for the last five years. We are not religious whackjobs, nor are we doing so to protect her from the world. We homeschool for one simple reason: our local public school was an absolute trainwreck. Before making the decision to homeschool full-time, we were doing so part-time just to do the job her school wasn't doing. She simply wasn't learning in the public school, but she is learning now.

As far as educational progress is concerned: My daughter was a year behind in both reading and math when we decided to no longer send our daughter to public school. After one year, she was on grade level in reading, and above in math. We are now beginning our fifth school year of full-time homeschooling, and she's now 2 years above in both.

I will make this one last point: At the time we decided that sending our daughter to the public school was bordering on neglect, this was the case:

The President is a Republican.
The Secretary of Education is a Republican.
Both houses of Congress were at the time controlled by Republicans.
My state's Governor is a Republican.
Both houses of my state legislature are controlled by Republicans.
My state's elected school superintendent is a Republican.
My county's elected school board is controlled by Republicans.
My county's appointed school superintendent is a Republican.
My daughter's last 2 teachers were Republicans.

And you want my family to turn our daughter over to all those Republicans to be educated? What on EARTH makes you think they won't fuck up her education the way they fuck everything else up?

[FearofFutility]

77. It's very frustrating.

My children have been homeschooled from day one and are doing just fine. They both test above grade level. I want the best for my children, and I have the right to provide them with it when I can.

[Sadie4629]

79. That's great

I bet you are having lots of fun, and building a wonderful relationship with your daughter. You will have lots of good memories from this experience.

One tiny, little point, though. It often doesn't matter what party is in charge. Schools can suck regardless. I was most frustrated with our school system during the Clinton Administration.

We got a Republican governor (Engler) who started the whole charter school concept. The competition made our local district much more responsive to the parents overwhelming cries for improvement. That was when we finally got AP classes, and they got over the notion that all kids have to learn all the same stuff at the same time. It was ridiculous, and caused a "lowest common denominator" mentality in the teachers.

Under Engler, one of the principal told me that he literally had more money than he knew what to do with. They could buy all kinds of technology, but had no place to store it. Building a new school was under local control, and the voters wouldn't approve the millage.

[Colorado Progressive]

168. same way here! Good job for having so much patience! nt

[goddess40]

210. not the intent of the OP

I just want to know who is responsible for kids being home schooled where the parents signed a form saying they will teach their kids at home and then don't follow through. That's all that is required in Wisconsin - sign a form and you can disappear no one checks to see if you are doing as you promised. In the OP I stated that I believe most home schoolers do a good job but I want to know who is responsible for those that fall through the cracks - kids that get no education because their parents are lazy or worse home schooling to cover abuse?

I like to ask those that home schooler if they would subject their kids to a yearly check to help find these kids that are being neglected or abused and I've always been told no and that it isn't their problem.

[sense]

288. Who comes to your house to check on your kids?

Do they have a warrant. I'm pretty sure this used to be a free country......I'm not so sure anymore.

[alittlelark]

72. I have a friend who is home-schooling her 7th grader

He's been home schooled since the 2nd month of kindergarten. He is friends w/ my 6th grade son. He is perhaps on a 3rd to 4th grade level - he never takes the CA STAR test. His mother never attended college.

A minimum of two years of college should be required for 'stand alone' home schooling. Those w/o need some oversight.

My friend keeps saying she'll put him in public school.... and each year blows it off.

[deadmessengers]

76. yes, because that would never happen in a public school

Kids would NEVER be allowed to read below grade level in public school. Not at all. No sirree - that's simply inconceivable.

:sarcasm:

[mzmolly]

84. Why should college be required? That is an elitist position.

I homeschool, and have no formal college - aside from "technical" college.

[alittlelark]

98. If you want home schooled kids to get into college .....

perhaps it would be best if the teacher went there his or herself for awhile.

For those w/o any college experience a mentor would be a very good idea.

I remember chatting w/ you 4 or so years ago when I spent 1 year homeschooling my 2 kids (primarily due to aforementioned friend's insistence that I try it).

The loose group I schooled with included 3 parents whose children were regularly performing poorly, an 2 parents w/ kids that were excelling.
You can guess the breakdown in education levels of the parents due to what I posted originally.

I will add that 2 of the parents w/ poorer performance were fairly radical fundies.


I am sure that there are a great many parents with no college education who are able to do a stellar job home schooling......

....but - the cracks these kids fall between are preventable.

[mzmolly]

103. My sister is an RN, neither of her parents went to college. Thankfully it wasn't a requirement.

I've seen no evidence that those who were fortunate enough to have attended college are any more adept at schooling their children at home than those who did not.

I don't need a mentor as frankly, I'm "smarter" than many people I know who went to college. I'm not "educated" but I'm intelligent enough, most days. ;)

but - the cracks these kids fall between are preventable.

I'd have to see evidence that more homeschooled children fall between the cracks than schooled children in this country. My guess is the percentage of those who can't read after attending public schools far greater than the percentage of homeschooled children who find themselves in that situation?

[alittlelark]

108. If all homeschooled kids had to take the same tests

as community schooled kids you would see those cracks clearly.

I'm sure you do a great job home schooling your kids. I remember chatting w/ you on the subject.

But be realistic - how many home schooling parents are smart and adept? The ones I met doing it for religious reasons were for the most part paranoid and slow.

[mzmolly]

113. Here are some additional cracks you might find of interest?

http://www.educationrevolution.org/paulwellstone.html

In Minnesota, in the first round of testing, 79% of low-income students failed the reading portion of the high school exit exam and 74% failed the math part. These numbers have improved with repeated rounds of testing, but it is clear who is losing out in public education...

What about the children in the Minneapolis public school system who are "falling through" them thar cracks you speak about? Should you not concern yourself with the failed public school system FIRST? Especially given that's where your tax dollars are being spent? Perhaps people would be less inclined to school at home were the public school system in better condition?

But be realistic - how many home schooling parents are smart and adept?

I've NEVER met a homeschooling parent who wasn't smart and adept. In fact, they are some of the smartest most "adept" people I know.

I homeschool with parents who graduated from Harvard, own businesses, were former public school teachers etc.

[deadmessengers]

114. And the worst homeschooling parent I've ever met...

In my 5 years of homeschooling I've met a few parents who were completely unprepared and unable to do so competently. The one that sticks out in my mind as being a total, complete and utter trainwreck actually had a college degree from a very well-known and well-respected college.

And, I will reiterate this, having been said in other ways in this thread: every time you hear about a kid graduating high school without being able to read, remember this: that kid was taught by college graduates with teaching credentials for TWELVE YEARS.

[ulysses]

128. and allow me to echo proud2belib upthread,

in response to the first time you posted this: every time you hear about a kid graduation high school and going on to complete college successfully, remember that she was taught by credentialed teachers for 12 years.

[deadmessengers]

134. Because of those teachers, or in spite of them? n/t

[ulysses]

136. I'll ask the same of your oft-repeated example. n/t

[deadmessengers]

148. You're missing the point again

The point is that a college degree doesn't automatically confer competence, and the lack of one doesn't mean incompetence. It could go both ways. The argument that you must be trained to be a teacher is extremely easy to refute.

[ulysses]

156. no I'm not.

The point is that a college degree doesn't automatically confer competence, and the lack of one doesn't mean incompetence.

Not in every case, perhaps not. However, if my son turns out to have a learning disability, I'll put him in a classroom with a trained teacher over someplace with a couple of their own ideas about how to teach in a heartbeat.

The argument that you must be trained to be a teacher is extremely easy to refute.

So do it. You haven't yet.

[deadmessengers]

162. OK, here you go

Homeschoolers outperforming public-schoolers:
"There was no significant difference between minority and white homeschooled students. For example, in grades K-12, both white and minority students scored, on the average, in the 87th percentile. In math, whites scored in the 82nd percentile while minorities scored in the 77th percentile. In the public schools, however, there is a sharp contrast. White public school eighth grade students, nationally scored the 58th percentile in math and the 57th percentile in reading. Black eighth grade students, on the other hand, scored on the average at the 24th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading. Hispanics scored at the 29th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading."

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

"Standardized test results for 16,000 home educated children, grades K-12, were analyzed in 1994 by researcher Dr. Brian Ray. He found the nationwide grand mean in reading for homeschoolers was at the 79th percentile; for language and math, the 73rd percentile. "
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000017.asp


Public school disasters:
"Each year over 700,000 graduate from high school unable to read their high school diploma.
http://www.efmoody.com/miscellaneous/illiteracy.html

"26 percent of 12th graders were reading at the "below basic" level"
http://www.education-world.com/a_issues/issues/issues408.shtml



I'm not going to tell you that every parent is cut out for homeschooling. But don't try and convince me that every trained professional really belongs in a classroom, either.

[ulysses]

173. I hope you won't mind

if I don't view the HSLDA as an entirely objective source. :)

But don't try and convince me that every trained professional really belongs in a classroom, either.

If you've read my posts, I believe that I've stated several times that there are teachers out there who shouldn't be. There are also doctors and lawyers out there who shouldn't be, and I don't see anyone advocating do-it-yourself appendectomies based on a few burn-out cases.

Look - if you truly *can* do it (and there are those who can, yes), then knock yourself out. I'm not ideologically opposed to homeschooling, if the parent is genuinely capable and not doing it in order to keep the kids apart from society.

[proud2BlibKansan]

203. Name one profession where 100% of the trained professionals are competent

Just one.

[deadmessengers]

243. Name one profession where it's harder to get fired for incompetence.

You keep comparing your training to that of a doctor or an attorney, so I'll extend your comparison a bit. If doctors aren't any good, their malpractice rates rise until they can't afford to practice anymore. A doctor can also have his or her license revoked, restricted, or suspended by state medical certification boards. If lawyers screw up, their rates rise as well, and if they're really bad, the state bar association will step in and disbar them (example: Nifong).

Now, let's look at public school teachers. Have you EVER heard of a tenured public school teacher being fired for anything other than gross misconduct? Incompetence might get you reassigned, but NEVER fired, and it sure as hell can't get your license revoked. Oh, and any program to financially reward good teachers gets shouted down - our last Democratic Governor here in Georgia was voted out of office after the public school teachers' unions campaigned against him after he proposed such a plan.

[sense]

291. a classroom?

So if your child has trouble learning you think he'd be better off in a classroom with 30 kids, than one on one with someone who knows and loves him?

[mzmolly]

138. Many homeschooled children go on to complete college successfully as well.

http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/WSJArticle.htm

Once in college, home-schoolers appear to be living up to their test scores. Those enrolled at Boston University in the past four years have a 3.3 grade-point average, out of a perfect four. Similarly, Georgia's Kennesaw State University found that its home-schooled students had higher-than-average GPAs as college freshmen.

At Kennesaw State, both the president and the vice president of the student government were educated at home. The president, John M. Fuchko III, whose mother began teaching him after he was labeled hyperactive in kindergarten, says home-schoolers will change college as much as college changes them. He predicts that they will pressure colleges to individualize instruction and stop insisting on survey courses as prerequisites for more advanced studies.

"In home-schooling, you don't have to sit for half a year studying something you already know," says the 22-year-old senior. "If you're prepared to go to the next level, you take it to the next level. Home-schooling breeds enterprising people."

Peace

[ulysses]

147. quite true.

Some don't, though. Some even enter adulthood as functional illiterates. I'm just sayin'.

[mzmolly]

153. This applies to those schooled in public and private schools as well.

"Some even enter adulthood as functional illiterates."

[ulysses]

157. welcome to my point.

:D

[mzmolly]

161. So we agree?

:shrug:

[ulysses]

166. perhaps.

I don't generally have a problem with homeschooling, if the parent has a clue and doesn't combine homeschooling advocacy with ignorant attacks on public ed, which already has enough problems.

[mzmolly]

171. I strongly support public ed. I vote every chance I get to raise my taxes

to pay for MORE funding for our local public schools. I also support homeschooling and the "right" for parents to have choices for their children when it comes to education.

[ulysses]

178. then we agree, at the very least in part.

I'm a parent too - I support parental choice, within the bounds of reason.

[mzmolly]

180. The term "reason" is SUBjective.

It's not reasonable to suggest that every child learn at the same pace and in the same manner. That's why I homeschool.

Edited to change the word objective to "subjective." ;)

[ulysses]

182. do you mean "subjective"?

I ask because it is, and I happily own up to that.

It's not reasonable to suggest that every child learn at the same pace and in the same manner.

Neither is it reasonable to expect that allowing every child to learn his chosen content at his own chosen pace with little or no adult input will result in an educated society.

[mzmolly]

189. Subjective is a better term.

LOL. I realize the irony. ;)

allowing every child to learn his chosen content at his own chosen pace with little or no adult input will result in an educated society.

The above assertion is a straw man however.

No one suggests that EVERY child learn in a specific manner other than those who promote teaching to the test. However, John Holt, (an un-schooling advocate) was an educator, professionally speaking. I assume you're referring to un-schooling in your post?

About John Holt - http://www.holtgws.com/johnholtpage.html

I'm not an un-schooler, but I would never suggest that it's "wrong" to approach learning in such a manner.

[ulysses]

194. it's not a straw man.

Yeah, I'm referring to the Holt/unschooling thing. Maybe you wouldn't suggest that it's wrong, but I would for the majority of kids. I don't doubt that there are some kids out there who thrive under such a theory, but I would suggest that they are few and far between.

Gotta go to bed. Peace.

[mzmolly]

204. Peace to you as well.

However, I'd like to say that I've met many un-schoolers in our local homeschool group and they are bright kids who are learning quite well. Very self driven, very interested in the world around them. While, I'm not comfortable in this approach, I do respect those who are. I honestly have not seen the disaster stories many promote, and I know loads of homeschoolers who happen to unschool.

Incidentally, my 16 year old homeschooled niece is studying advanced calculus and is attending college this fall.

PS there is an interesting article here that articulates unschooling for those who question:

http://www.naturalchild.com/guest/earl_stevens.html

...Unschooling does not mean that parents can never teach anything to their children, or that children should learn about life entirely on their own without the help and guidance of their parents. Unschooling does not mean that parents give up active participation in the education and development of their children and simply hope that something good will happen. Finally, since many unschooling families have definite plans for college, unschooling does not even mean that children will never take a course in any kind of a school.

Then what is unschooling? I can't speak for every person who uses the term, but I can talk about my own experiences. Our son has never had an academic lesson, has never been told to read or to learn mathematics, science, or history. Nobody has told him about phonics. He has never taken a test or has been asked to study or memorize anything. When people ask, "What do you do?" My answer is that we follow our interests - and our interests inevitably lead to science, literature, history, mathematics, music - all the things that have interested people before anybody thought of them as "subjects".

A large component of unschooling is grounded in doing real things, not because we hope they will be good for us, but because they are intrinsically fascinating. There is an energy that comes from this that you can't buy with a curriculum. Children do real things all day long, and in a trusting and supportive home environment, "doing real things" invariably brings about healthy mental development and valuable knowledge. It is natural for children to read, write, play with numbers, learn about society, find out about the past, think, wonder and do all those things that society so unsuccessfully attempts to force upon them in the context of schooling.

While few of us get out of bed in the morning in the mood for a "learning experience", I hope that all of us get up feeling in the mood for life. Children always do so - unless they are ill or life has been made overly stressful or confusing for them. Sometimes the problem for the parent is that it can be difficult to determine if anything important is actually going on. It is a little like watching a garden grow. No matter how closely we examine the garden, it is difficult to verify that anything is happening at that particular moment. But as the season progresses, we can see that much has happened, quietly and naturally. Children pursue life, and in doing so, pursue knowledge. They need adults to trust in the inevitability of this very natural process, and to offer what assistance they can.

Goodnight U. :hi:

[sense]

292. Some don't?

Compare that to most don't.... in public school. The stats are out there, you just don't want to believe it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

200. Doctors shouldn't have to go to college either

It's so elitist! Training? Pshaw.

[mzmolly]

213. So, you suggest that teaching is akin to practicing medicine?

I'd say that you have a bit of an ego problem frankly.

I've not seen the statistics that would back up the assertion that one can learn to practice medicine without a formal education. But, I have seen many examples of children who are educated quite well at home.

My brother in law to be is a surgeon, he doesn't frown upon my decision to homeschool, nor does my sister, who is an educator.

[proud2BlibKansan]

218. I have as much education as my cousin who is a doctor

Not my ego, just a fact.

[mzmolly]

221. That fact does not mean that you know my child or her educational needs better than I do.

Period.

You are not a doctor, in spite of the amount of time you spent in college. However, I happened to have spent many years in the public education system. In fact, I "graduated" from every grade I have taught and/or will teach.

[Sadie4629]

93. One of my friends was a military wife

and because she homeschooled she had to be familiar with the laws of many different states. There are some states where the only requirement is that the parent completed the grade he/she was teaching.

[mzmolly]

82. Who's responsible for schooled kids that don't get an education?

I graduated with people who couldn't read.

I ask simply because I know a family that is home schooling "because of religious reason" but are not providing any real education other then how to be a victim of the pretend assault on Christians. The state won't step in and the parents will not listen to family members - Still these four kids will grow up and be unable to support themselves.

Each state has different laws governing homeschooling. Unfortunately, as in any "school" there are good teachers and bad. As in any educational setting, there are children who will be ill prepared for supporting themselves.

[kath]

101. You beat me to it. After 100+ years of public education, 20% of Oklahomans are functionally

illiterate. I suspect there are other states whose numbers are even worse.
Crap, jocks and other people graduate from frickin' COLLEGE and are virtually illiterate and dumber than shit. My daughter's ex-softball coach was a superstar at OSU and can't write a simple e-mail that's coherent.
How many times have you encountered clerks in stores who can't count change? And people who can't even figure what TEN percent off comes to, much less 20 or 30%? By the age of 9 or 10 my kids had a better understanding of the use of the apostrophe than the vast majority of the people here (and GACK, the "your" instead of "you're" thing, and "loose" instead of "lose", etc, etc, etc.) And they don't use horrible grammar like "He don't" and "I seen him" and "look at them trees" and all the other abominations that are so common here in Okie-land.

Saw a recent study that outlined the various levels of literacy and gave the %age of people from different states who were at each level. It was absolutely appalling.

Fix the public schools before you get your panties all in a wad about what homeschoolers are doing.
I doubt that 20% of homeschoolers end up functionally illiterate (and innumerate, or whatever the term is).

[mzmolly]

105. Absolutely!

Fix the public schools before you get your panties all in a wad about what homeschoolers are doing.

"Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning." The fool who said that went to Yale. ;)

[deadmessengers]

116. And Harvard Business School n/t

[ulysses]

125. "The fool who said that went to Yale." whaddya want to bet

numbnuts isn't a public school product?

[mzmolly]

135. Whaddya want to bet that numbnuts wasn't schooled at home?

;)

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/notable.htm

[ulysses]

137. let's blame it on the boarding schools!

That's the ticket! :D

[mzmolly]

139. Well perhaps boarding schools need more "testing?"

;)

[ulysses]

140. I'd go for "accountability".

[mzmolly]

144. Isn't that measured via testing?

:shrug:

[ulysses]

158. that's one way, sure.

It isn't the only way.

[mzmolly]

165. What are the other ways?

:)

[ulysses]

177. actually spending a little time in the schools.

Multiple-choice tests assess some things well, many things poorly or not at all. If you really want to know what a school is like, hang out in the classrooms, hallways, cafeteria...and neighborhood.

[proud2BlibKansan]

205. My experience is that 90% of homeschooled kids I know are illiterate

So I guess that means that 90% of all homeschoolers are illiterate, by your logic.

I'd also love to see a link proving your stat about literacy in Oklahoma.

[Madspirit]

107. State by State

In my state, Texas, which is known as a homeschooler's haven, they basically have no oversight. You can take your kids out of public school and teach them the world is flat and only 6000 years old or anything else or nothing at all. It is a crying shame.

Lee

[QueenOfCalifornia]

126. weighing on on this

This is a topic riddled with emotion -- some people really believe that home schooling is the only way to go. I happen to think some kids may do better being home schooled depending on the parent doing the schooling - But for the most part I think children benefit from being in a classroom environment. They pick up social skills that they can not possibly get from being homeschooled at the kitchen table with Mom - I understand that there are studies that suggest this is not the case - BUT there are other studies that prove that children who are isolated from peers are socially inept -

No matter how good a homeschool teacher you are, you can not provide the social experience of being in an environment with ones own peers. It is not possible. Children learn how to interact with others their own age by practice.

[mzmolly]

149. Homeschooling does not equal isolation.

That's a myth. Homeschoolers have groups that gather just for play in every populated area in the US and beyond. Children in school are encouraged to "be quiet and "listen" to the teacher. That's not socializing. Homeschooled children are generally great. They're more accepting and less materialistic than their so called "socialized" peers in the public education system.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

245. I really can not

argue intelligently on this topic - and I don't think, either can you - the studies are not done, period. There are all sorts of reasons for us to have our own opinions - but the "studies" are not being done by independent researchers - I'd like to see a study conducted by someone like Johns Hopkins - not by a religious think-tank.

If you have information about such a study, please post it here. I would love to read it.

Most homeschoolers are being homeschooled due to religious reasons - That is about the only statistic out there that all these "studies" can agree upon.

I think, since the studies that are readily available, are performed by someone who has bias interests in making the ending figures look really good, they are worthless.

[mzmolly]

246. There are studies. And, as a homeschooler, I feel quite qualified to form an opinion. I also know

several children who are homeschooled. And, I attended public schools for twelve years and know how children are "socialized: in that setting. As for bias, I am not. I sent my child to public school in hopes that it would be a good fit for her, it was not.

I support educational CHOICE. I fully support friends and family who choose to send their children to public/private schools. I vote to raise my taxes every year for the children in the area who attend the local schools. And, my daughter actually plays with children who go to public/private schools. Amazingly, she can talk and interact in spite of her so called "isolation."

As for studies:

http://www.chayas.com/homeschoolsoc1.htm

Socialization Studies - Homeschooling

Stough (1992),looking particularly at socialization, compared 30 home-schooling families and 32 conventionally schooling families, families with children 7-14 years of age. According to the findings, children who were schooled at home "gained the necessary skills, knowledge, and attitudes needed to function in society...at a rate similar to that of conventionally schooled children." The researcher found no difference in the self concept of children in the two groups. Stough maintains that "insofar as self concept is a reflector of socialization, it would appear that few home-schooled children are socially deprived, and that there may be sufficient evidence to indicate that some home-schooled children have a higher self concept than conventionally schooled children."

This echoes the findings of Taylor (1987). Using one of the best validated self-concept scales available, Taylor's random sampling of home-schooled children (45,000) found that half of these children scored at or above the 91st percentile--47% higher than the average, conventionally schooled child. He concludes: "Since self concept is considered to be a basic dynamic of positive sociability, this answers the often heard skepticism suggesting that home schoolers are inferior in socialization" (Taylor, 1987).

From the findings of these two studies, it would appear that the concerns expressed by teachers, administrators, and legislators about socialization and home schooling are unfounded. Indeed, Bliss (1989) contends that it is in the formal educational system's setting that children first experience negative socialization, conformity, and peer pressure. According to her, "This is a setting of large groups, segmented by age, with a variation of authority figures...the individual, with his/her developmental needs, becomes overpowered by the expectations and demand of others--equal in age and equally developmentally needy."

Webb (1989), one of the few researchers who has examined aspects of the adult lives of wholly or partly home-educated people, found that all who had attempted higher education were successful and that their socialization was often better than that of their schooled peers.

More on this here:

http://www.ericdigests.org/1995-1/home.htm

From WIKI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Criticism

In 2003, the National Home Education Research Institute conducted a survey of 7,300 U.S. adults who had been homeschooled (5,000 for more than seven years). Their findings included:

* Homeschool graduates are active and involved in their communities. 71% participate in an ongoing community service activity, like coaching a sports team, volunteering at a school, or working with a church or neighborhood association, compared with 37% of U.S. adults of similar ages from a traditional education background.

* Homeschool graduates are more involved in civic affairs and vote in much higher percentages than their peers. 76% of those surveyed between the ages of 18 and 24 voted within the last five years, compared with only 29% of the corresponding U.S. populace. The numbers are even greater in older age groups, with voting levels not falling below 95%, compared with a high of 53% for the corresponding U.S. populace.

* 58.9% report that they are "very happy" with life, compared with 27.6% for the general U.S. population. 73.2% find life "exciting", compared with 47.3%.<53>

[Sanctified]

226. Kids do not learn to socialize in a class room.

They learn to socialize in the halls and on the playground. In the class room they are expected to be quiet while the teacher lectures.

Sorry but there are all kinds of substitutes for halls and playgrounds.

[sense]

293. Research

I think part of the problem so many people have is that they think that homeschoolers stay home. We're never home. We're out in the world every day. I think that most people have no idea how many wonderful resources there are now for homeschoolers to access and many, many are free. We interact with all types of people every day. I can't understand what is good or normal about being trapped in a classroom all day, only able to interact with kids your age. I had nothing in common with kids my age. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why they were all so immature and why they were never interested in anything or anyone but themselves. I don't think all schools are bad....just most.

[Colorado Progressive]

130. In CO they take assessment exams like all the other kids, and if they do poorly

the kids are supposed to go back to public school. Its a legal issue. Thats sad about those kids you know, they will be incapable of even socially functioning and too ignorant to know why, so they'll keep blaming the assault on Christians for the way they are treated. Sigh......

[gollygee]

133. It's all about who has the right to decide what is best for someone's children

Do the parents have the right to decide what their children learn? How they learn and where?

Does society have the right to expect all children to learn certain things?

Do children have a right to have a certain type of education and to learn certain things regardless of their parents' beliefs?

I would lean toward parents having a right to decide whether or not to homeschool, but with some level of oversight that makes sure the children are gaining what basic skills are necessary to function as adults. But I think parents should have the freedom to teach in whatever style they want, so long as they can demonstrate that their kids are actually learning.

It's tricky because I think everyone truly wants what is best for the children involved, but different people have different ideas about what actually is best. So who gets to make that decision?

My daughter will be starting kindergarten at a public school next week, for what it's worth.

[ourbluenation]

143. home schoolers, by and large, seem to come in two varieties where I live...

one is the wingnut variety where all the curriculum is bible based, creationist nonsense. The other group are my hippie friends and most of them are doing a pretty good job teaching their kids. :)

[Colorado Progressive]

163. where I live some people homeschool to AVOID the wingnuts, no joke NT

[OneGrassRoot]

150. I rarely log in any longer....preferring to read than interact

but my goodness, I had to finally weigh in on one of these unbelievably bullshit-ridden homeschooling threads.

I rarely post anything negative - unless it's directed at B*shco - but the high-brow, elitist (Yes, I said ELITIST) attitude those here show toward homeschooling is unfuckingbelievable. The judgmental attitude so many here express is one of the reasons I peek in rather than interact. I live in Bible thumper country and have had my fill of judgment.

My personal view is that, like most things, nothing is black or white. Some public school systems are okay, others suck; some homeschooling situations are okay; others suck. Our situation in the Raleigh-area school system sucked (academically, socially, safety-wise), so I chose to homeschool my daughter for several years. She just started the 9th grade and is in all honors courses. Her social skills are fine, or better than most, as she has been involved in many activities and lessons (music, dance, etc.) the last few years.

I'm a single parent who works full-time from home (or else I couldn't/wouldn't have homeschooled), no insurance, living paycheck to paycheck. My day starts at 5:00 and ends at midnight, and I really don't have time to be posting this but I'm pissed...and tired.

I would venture to say that for those of you who have your panties in such a wad about homeschooling, you either A) have no children or; B) didn't have a completely unacceptable school system which your children were/are attending.

I'm a big fan of higher education and believe it should be available to those who choose to pursue that path. However, how dare anyone use the elitist argument regarding having a college degree in order to homeschool: look at the friggin college-educated (Ivy League, even) idiot in the White House!!!! I respect teachers tremendously, but what's on a piece of paper isn't why.

BTW, NC does require annual testing.

Finally, I'm too pissed to proof and edit this, so if any grammar Nazis want to interject some shitty comments, I suggest you go do something more productive with your time and volunteer to tutor kids in English. And....if you're tempted to post something snarky here, I'll pre-emptively tell you that you can kiss my ass.

[mzmolly]

159. May I say,

BRAVA! :toast:

[deadmessengers]

164. completely awesome

:hi:

[OneGrassRoot]

198. Thanks much, Mzmolly and deadmessengers! :) n/t

[treestar]

187. But the OP is about those who do homeschooling and don't do a

good job, and what the consequences are. The OP did not say that was all, or even most, of the homeschooled children. Inevitably, some of the parents aren't going to do a good job, just as some of the schools don't. The public schools will be considered responsible for the public schooled kids who can't read when they graduate.

There is no reason to be so sensitive. Just because you home schooled doesn't mean you are personally insulted by the concept that some other homeschoolers might not do a good job of it.

[OneGrassRoot]

196. My response was not to the OP....

I'm sorry that wasn't clear. There are a multitude of others posting blanket statements about homeschooling within this thread, which is always the case. My comments are directed at those who issue blanket judgments. I agree with testing and doing what's best to ensure the children are indeed being educated, in any type of educational environment, homeschool or otherwise.

Believe me, if there is something to be sensitive about, it's parenthood and the various judgments being thrown out by those who haven't a clue of the various situations and challenges or have only read about it. I agree with the goal of fixing our public school system, but as someone else wisely said, many of us won't allow our children to be harmed while it's still tragically broken in many areas. It's extra hard to swallow when you see this mindset repeatedly in a forum where you never expected it. DU used to be a haven, but that was naive on my part. Like everything, DU has the good with the bad.

[MUSTANG_2004]

235. Agree totally

I'm always surprised at the amount of hostility to homeschooling. It's not like homeschoolers are mandating that everyone homeschool, we just want to be free to give our kids the best education that we can.

[BlooInBloo]

152. There's nothing Americans will fight harder for than their right to be stupid.

[MUSTANG_2004]

305. Possibly, but not in this case

You ignore that homeschoolers outperform traditional students. Here's a homeschooling site with study results:

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

Overall, homeschool parents are fighting for the right to provide a better education to their children.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

160. My stepfather's relatives are doing that

They're their own weird brand of fundamentalism, a combination of Southern Baptist and Amish and Eastern Orthodox, and they home school their kids. Last time I saw them, the oldest was ten years old and doing second grade work--from a fundie homeschooling curriculum.

And no, from what I could see, she was perfectly capable of doing regular fifth grade work. She seemed like a normal ten-year-old...except for her Laura Ingalls Wilder outfit and headscarf. :-( (They claim that the headscarf is Orthodox, but actually, even the strictest Orthodox require only married women to wear headscarves.)

[Colorado Progressive]

172. My friends are homeschooling their grandson because he is ADHD...

and the school treated him like crap and made him feel horrible about himself. The whole NCLB bullshit makes the teachers fear for their jobs if they cant teach non-trad learners, so DUH they treat the children with different learning habits like they dont want them, because they DONT want them. Now that this boys grandparents are patiently working with him he is getting up to grade level.

Why does everything go back to the shrub and his pathetic attempts at thinking?????

[ulysses]

176. it's interesting teaching special ed in the NCLB era.

Not "good interesting" either.

[Colorado Progressive]

217. I know. Sadly enough I make some extra money writing science

questions for the exams for these standardized programs. But all the teachers I know are just horrified by what has happened to the curriculum.

[Bennyboy]

184. My story: Home schooling is HORRIBLE. (really long).

My ex-wife (you will know why ex in a minute) decided that her 14 year old son should be home schooled after he was suspended on the third day of High School. Before that he was a horrible student, in trouble all the time and hated to take tests. Once, in jr high, he beat her and tackled her over his grades.

When it came to this kid I never had any say, AT ALL.

So she decided to home school the kid. Of course she had a great job with he State and never had the time to actually school the kid. Every two weeks a teacher came by and went over his work. the amount of work was so little he could do the entire two weeks worth in about 1/2 hour, the night before. NOTHING AT ALL LIKE SCHOOL.

Essentially, this kid played video games all day long, smoking weed with his other drop-out buddies and other home schoolers.

I worked out of the house and came home to a house full of teenagers every day. I protested but my wife told me essentially he could do whatever he wanted. These kids stole from me, tried to set the neighbors house on fire, fired BB Guns at the neighbors etc. My wife used to tell me me to move my stuff so it would not get stolen.


Every September we had the same argument. I wanted the kid in school and she did not.

In march of his senior year I came home (during the hours he should have been in school) to 10+ kids in the house. I knew that this was no good and then someone I knew as a weed dealer came up and entered the house. All the kids went to the back (most are the ones listed above) and then gunshots rang out. One of the kids tried to rob the dope dealer. I flew out the front door and one of the thieves told me get on my knees. he pulled the trigger....the gun jammed. thank god.

The dealer had someone waiting in his car and he took out a gun along with the dealer. They fired 27 shots at the fleeing thieves. Now keep in mind this is not in the ghetto, the hood or anything like this. this in a suburban neighborhood.

The kids all lied on the witness stand, I told the truth. They guy that tried to rob us, and tried to kill me got off on the charges.

One year later he sued me for two million dollars.

at this time the kid is out of high School (home school graduated/graduated) but has no job. my ex says he can stay without getting a job or going to college.

September rolls around (3 years ago last week)and she tells me he does not have to go to school or get a job again. That did it for me.

I had to spend two years after the shootout making sure that that type of incident did not happen again and my business suffered greatly with that and the lawsuit.

Now this kid is 21 and still has not gone to school, has had jobs sporadically and still lives with his Mom.
he cannot operate the phone book. He cannot name the branches of govt. he cannot name 5 American authors. He is a TOTAL IDIOT. he is quite good at video games though.

Oh yeah, one other thing, when the lawsuit got to discovery (20,000 dollars) it turns out they really intended to sue my step son.

[mzmolly]

193. "smoking weed with his other drop-out buddies"

I noted your avatar as you made this statement.

One story is not indicative of the entire homeschooling population. Ted Bundy went to public schools, but we should not use him as an example of what happens when we send children to public school. ;)

[Bennyboy]

206. Right you are...BUT....

Some people use home school to rid themselves of parental responsibility. All of those kids were that way. It was laughable really.

Some people do a great job with homeschooling and really take the time to do it right. but that is NOT MY STORY.

And the smoking weed thing, it may seem like a contradiction but in the case of MY KIDS, they were not allowed to puff until they were eighteen. And they did not. Even though they all knew that I did. I was not a lassai Faire (SP) parent where my kids were concerned. Honest, but I set rules.

[mzmolly]

214. Well, I agree with THIS post. But to say that HS is "horrible" is not generally the case.

Peace :hi:

[Bennyboy]

219. That is why I said MY STORY.

[mzmolly]

222. Okey dokey.

*smooches* ;)

[FooFootheSnoo]

185. I'm on the fence about homeschooling

I think there should be some kind of oversight. I feel sorry for the kids whose parents are fundamentalists and homeschool them to keep them from the "secular schools". But, I'd feel sorry for those poor kids even if they got to leave the house for school. The decision to homeschool needs to be about the child and what the child needs, not what mom and dad want or what kind of statement mom and dad want to make. If the parent is committed to the child's education, then the child is going to get a good education wether they are in home school, private school or public school.

[mzmolly]

216. I agree.

The decision to homeschool needs to be about the child and what the child needs,

But, I don't think one can regulate such a choice.

[sense]

294. exactly

[onewholaughsatfools]

207. as far as home schooling is concerned

I don't know what state you reside in, but in Ct. there are test home schoolers have to take to prove they are being educated. Just like in the normal school. These are state test and if they do not do well, they can not be home schooled.

[goddess40]

220. Wisconsin - like most states require nothing

beyond a parents word that they will educate their children. I have asked legislature about it but they say the Christian fundies have a strong lobbying group and they can't get any laws passed. I don't know if that is true or just a cop out but it is very sad that people will allow children to be abused and neglected because they don't want to be inconvenienced.

[mzmolly]

223. Are you suggesting that children in public school are never

abused and neglected? Or, that homeschoolers abuse and neglect their children?

[goddess40]

238. didn't and wouldn't use the words never or always

kids in public school have a safety net because they have to be out in public so it is easier to spot possible abuse but more importantly it keeps the parent cognizant that someone may notice any abuse.


and I didn't imply that all home schooler abuse but it is true that some do use the home schooling system to avoid detection. In Wisconsin a parent signs a form stating they are going to teach their children which releases the public schools from any responsibility for that child.

[mzmolly]

241. Speaking from personal experience,

public schools do not end abuse. Further, many abusive parents would not want the responsibility of homeschooling. I think we can talk about the exceptions all day, everyday, but it's not productive to do so.

Children who are homeschooled are abused. Children who attend public/private schools are abused. Children are abused before they attend school of any sort. Sadly abuse happens regardless.

As to the schools signing a waiver, how odd. It's not as though the school can be held responsible for parental abuse in any case.

[Bozita]

225. An 11yo girl was home schooled because of her attendance record

Single mom pulled kid from public schools when her teachers referred her to her counselor for excessive absences and tardies. We're talking two no-shows per week. Forget the tardies. Rare was the day she ever saw her first period class.

She was a decent student and a nice kid. She just wasn't there much.

Mom had an addiction problem. Mom was seldom awake in time for her daughter to get ready for school. We're not talking "Mom's waiting tables until 2am" stuff.

The teachers gave the girl an alarm clock. It did no good. Mom insisted that she herself had the only alarm clock in the house.

Her counselor was made aware of the situation.

Teachers began phoning the girl's home at 7am in lieu of first hour beginning promptly at 8am.

More referrals to counselor. Counselor attempted more contacts with home. Counselor notified child attendance officer and school social worker.

Mom withdrew girl from public school.

Home schooling. Thank you, John Engler!

All of the above occurred between Labor Day and Halloween.

[mzmolly]

229. And there are many "horror" stories involving public school

students. We don't know what the future holds for this child, but certainly homeschooling is not her problem. Inadequate parenting is.

Incidentally, twice in a public school setting I witnessed a male teacher "beat up" a student. TWICE. Nothing was done at all. No community outrage, no firing, no reprimand.

[porphyrian]

236. Who's responsible for kids who don't get schooled at all...?

...or who go to school, but don't learn to read and get socially promoted? Are you looking to blame someone or fix the problem?

[goddess40]

239. Fix

blame only helps know where one might start to find the answers

[porphyrian]

240. I agree, but the quest for who to blame almost always turns into a circular firing squad...

...of accusation. In the meantime, the problem continues or gets worse.

We don't need to know who's responsible for the state of education in America today to make it better (because it can't get much worse). What we need is for people to care enough about education to make it a priority. Should bush get fifty billion more for an illegal war when kids still graduate high school (or the home-school equivalent) while being functionally illiterate? Our priorities are way, way out of whack as a society. The fix needs to start there.

[BluePatriot]

237. Two cents.

It was being "mainstreamed" that really hurt my hubby. When he was home schooled he got up to college level math/science/history in 9th grade. The high school would not put him in any advanced classes despite his aptitude tests. He spent several years sleeping in class and/or being socially awkward...His nonconformist behavior did not really help. I have learned that a big difference between us was that I chose to play along with the teachers and the system and got rewarded for it...someone just as bright as I am who does not follow arbitrary and pointless rules like my husband is punished and written off.

Now, I have really struggled to get him to enjoy learning again and to look forward to renewing his college classes. He is finally getting over what the system did to him and realizing he has to play along, somewhat, in order to advance in his job. His grades sadly will probably never reflect his intelligence. I have to cajole him to do what demanding teachers want and play along. I tell him, you're going to get a boss like that one day, and you'd better learn how to deal. He grudgingly agrees.

There are a lot of positives to the way he was raised, though. He is very emotionally open and self confident and freely enjoys many "non male" hobbies. I like it, and it makes me wonder how I was "molded" by school. I bet I would be more into math and computers, etc, right now, if I weren't tormented by bullies in 7th grade about it.

[leaninglib]

244. I’m more concerned with kids in public schools who don't get an education.

[SoCalDem]

266. Ever wonder why it takes about 6 years to get a degree these days?

and why it costs so much? My friend who teaches at a local college says that more and more "remedial" classes are popping up because more and more 18 yr olds are not "ready".. I don;t know if these are kids from public school or homeschool, but it's pretty scary to think that Mom & dad end up paying for a couple of extra years just to get that kid up to speed to tackle Freshman courses..

[sense]

295. public

One of the best things about homeschooling is that kids learn to think, not just regurgitate what they learned on a test and then forget it. Critical thinking is extremely valuable and public schools discourage it at all costs because you can't control that many kids if they're all able to think.

[Hubert Flottz]

290. Gawd!

Dummys vote GOP!

[sense]

296. exactly

[B Calm]

297. They'll be okay. They will graduate from Home School College

and land a job cleaning public restrooms in airports.

[sense]

299. Åctually

Colleges and Universities love homeschoolers because they want to learn and they think. They are generally very successful in College and life. Public schoolers don't learn to think....they learn to memorize and forget. Not very useful.

[MUSTANG_2004]

300. Agree - my homeschooled nephew

My homeschooled nephew never graduated high school. He got a GED, had no trouble getting into college (where he graduated with honors), and is now doing well in grad school.

[B Calm]

303. Actually, home schooling was

a big hit in the 60s when the LIBERAL hippies started it.

[mzmolly]

301. Yes, much like Thomas Edison, Alexander G. Bell, Claude Monet,

Abe Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin D. Roosevelt, George Washington Carver, Mozart, Dickens, Mark Twain, Benjamin Franklin, Sandra Day O'Connor and many http://www.home4schoolgear.com/famoushomeschooler.html">others. ALL are known for their ability to clean a toilet. :eyes:

A more contemporary list:

http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/weblinks/Famous.htm

[B Calm]

302. I like to see you get a job by saying you're a graduate of home school college

[MUSTANG_2004]

304. I recently hired a homeschooled kid

He's extremely sharp and very diligent. In the job interview when he told me he had been homeschooled, I took it as a positive.

[mzmolly]

306. Most homeschoolers who go to college, attend a standard college.

However, have you ever heard of a correspondence course?

[sense]

309. sense

An Ivy League College recently asked my son to apply, based solely on his test scores they found on the College Board. They want homeschoolers because they know how to think and are usually self motivated. Yes, there are some religious whackos out there who keep their kids home and teach from the bible.... most people know that there are far better ways to approach this. More and more people are pulling their kids out of school for academic reasons because schools are not doing the job. My son has read more books than anyone I know and my house is filled with books! He devours them, because he's not wasting his time in a classroom with other drones. Those of you who're so against homeschooling really should enter this century! Homeschooling needs a new name. It conjures up the picture the NEA wants everyone to think of.... sitting at the kitchen table and never leaving the house! That couldn't be further from the truth.

[sense]

308. Homeschool College

Easily done.

[BlooInBloo]

307. According to DUers, it's NOT the parents, rather...

... It's YOU and ME, for not providing a "village" for the child.

[sense]

310. It's the plan

Sheep are easier to control. It's all about control. Keep people stupid and compliant so you can have all the power. Read the Underground History of American Education. Or the Deliberate Dumbing Down of America...... or Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling. American is no longer a leader.... in much of anything because the plan is working!!! Wake up!!!