Is Larry Craig a hypocrite or was he simply voting as his constituents wanted?

[percussivemadness]

I find the double standard on this board somewhat alarming in this respect.

1) Politicians are elected to carry out the will of their constituents.

Last November, the gay marriage ban was voted on by Idaho voters,and passed http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,228139,00.html

So Larry Craig was voting in accordance with his constituents wishes. The fact that he appears to be gay is irrelevant.

By saying one should vote according to their "sexual persuasion", you are knocking Gay Rights back into the stone age. If this criteria is applied, you may as well overturn Roe vrs Wade now and much more legislation.

Sorry if this is a bit hard for some of you on this board to swallow, but lambasting Craig for being a hypocrite, whilst lambasting Bush for "not listening to the will of the people" is a double standard.

Before any of you accuse me of being "homophobic", I support the right of anyone, irrespective of their sexual persuasion to get married. I abhor the small minded, ignorant and bigoted people who voted for the Idaho ban, however, it is not up to a politician to vote according to his personal beliefs, if you go down that route, you are advocating an aristocracy and the dismantling of the democratic process.

Peace

[geek_sabre]

1. K&R nt

[0007]

2. Anyway you sum it up .. Larry Craig is a disgusting creep and

the boys & girls at FAUX News are as bad.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. I Had This Argument On A Conservative Site....

The problem is the senator was voting against gay interests while denying he was gay for political benefit... There's the hypocrisy...

[percussivemadness]

14. what has being gay got to do with this?

nothing...

Craig is under no obligation to disclose his sexuality. The fact that his is weak-willed is not a prerequisite for getting elected, but it is a prerequisite for being a Reslug. That is the issue here.

Furthermore, he has denied being gay. So he experimented allegedly in 2004. So once you experiment, using your logic, you are gay for life. I don`t believe that. I believe people are born gay, it is not a choice. The desire to experiment does not make you gay.

Come on, this whole argument is bogus. I`ll tell you what hypocrisy is, campaigning on a platform of bringing "ethics" back to government, and when elected, refusing to put impeachment on the table for a criminal President and Vice President.

I understand the desire of the gay community to get rights, jesus, how the gay community is treated is as abhorrent as anything I have ever seen, it disgusts me, but this Craig thing is a non-issue.

Peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Do you understand what a "hypocrite" is?

That's a grown-up word for when you say one thing and do another.

Being a hypocrite is a bad thing.

[percussivemadness]

20. ok...so when a catholic prays to his god in Church

and then votes for a woman` right to choose he has to be a hypocrite right?

When a Catholic uses contraception, he is a hypocrite.

I know what hypocrite means, but I also understand the democratic process, and putting your personal beliefs aside to carry out the will of your constituents is not hypocrisy.

Peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. No, not at all.

If he had said people can't get abortions, then he'd be a hypocrite.

"When a Catholic uses contraception, he is a hypocrite."

No, if he told people they couldn't use contraception, then he'd be a hypocrite.

"I know what hypocrite means"

Are you sure? Because you seem to be stumbling over a fairly simple concept.

"I also understand the democratic process"

Well, I hope you understand it better than the word "hypocrite."

"putting your personal beliefs aside to carry out the will of your constituents is not hypocrisy."

Have you got any evidence to suggest that Kerry doesn't personally believe in a woman's right to choose?

[mondo joe]

26. No, you're wrong, and I don't think you understand the Democratic process very well

either.

A hypocrite is someone who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives.

There are Catholics who go to church and pray but disagree with the church's stance on abortion. That's not hypocrisy, in and of itself.

With regard to the Democratic process, elected representatives are not simply vote tallys who act on simply majority polling at every moment. They actually formulate and run on platforms, and are elected or not based on their positions.

Thereafter they may change their minds, or may bend to reflect public pressure - though they are by no means required to do so.

[percussivemadness]

31. Thereafter they may change their minds, or may bend to reflect public pressure

though they are by no means required to do so.

come on...a government for the people by the people...

so why vote if the person you vote for isn`t going to carry out your will.

you are fundamentally are saying, that a politician can say what the hell he wants to get elected, and then do what the hell he likes when elected and your voice means absolutely nothing..

now i understand why Pelosi took impeachment off the table...

peace

[mondo joe]

55. You don't understand representative government.

We elect representatives. We don't have pure democracy. If we had that there'd be no need for people to run on a platform - they'd instead just run on who will listen best to the polls.

I don't think you "voice means nothing". It means what the rep takes it to mean - and then they can be voted back in, or out of office.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. He Lied About His Sexuality For Political Gain

And then once elected on that lie he voted against the interests of the group he claimed not be a part of...

You are correct...Nobody has an affirmative obligation to declare their sexual orientation... But Senator Craig lied... He could have refused to answer...

[mondo joe]

3. He's a hypocrite,. He chose a platform to run on, and he did - repeatedly.

Sorry but he's a douchebag hypocrite.

Actually, I'm not sorry.

[percussivemadness]

5. so...using your logic

John Kerry is a hypocrite for voting for a woman`s right to choose?

I`m not John Kerry`s biggest fan, but I have a damn sight more respect for him for voting against his religious beliefs because that is what his constituents want than enforcing his "catholic" beliefs onto his constituents.

Or are you saying Kerry is a hypocrite also?

Peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Did John Kerry perform abortions in mens rooms?

You lost me.

[mondo joe]

10. God damn it - don't give the Swiftboaters any ideas. NT

[mondo joe]

9. No, why? John Kerry runs on a platform he believes in, and was elected

on, repeatedly.

He's said he'll vote for choice, and he does. What's hypocritical about that?

[percussivemadness]

16. because he also professes to be a catholic

and the Catholic church has said that abortion is a mortal sin.

I renounced my catholic faith because I don`t believe a woman`s right to choose should be denied.

peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Lots of catholics are against abortion.

There have been catholics having been ignoring what the Vatican says for 2,000 years, thank God.

"I renounced my catholic faith because I don`t believe a woman`s right to choose should be denied."

Is this like one of those things were people say "I've been a registered democrat all my life but I'm concerned..."

[mondo joe]

19. He's Catholic and Pro Choice. Nothing hypocritical about it.

He's voting on the platform he believes in, he lives it, and he gets elected on it.

Now if he said he was antichoice and voted that way, but secretly funded abortions he'd be a hyocrite.

[percussivemadness]

23. You cannot be Catholic and Pro choice

end of story.

You can renounce your Catholicism like I and many more have, but you cannot be both, it goes against the very tenets of the Catholic faith.

Peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Sure you can.

Millions of catholics are pro-choice.

[percussivemadness]

27. then they are not Catholics

do you actually know the Churches stance on abortion...?

Catholics who are pro-abortion are the worst types, because they don`t have the convictions of faith to believe in the church`s teachings.

Sorry...

Peace

[mondo joe]

29. Here's proof that you are wrong.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2004/07/07_803.html

Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis, says Catholics who simply vote for a pro-choice candidate must confess before receiving communion.

If they are no longer Catholic, they don't take his orders and probably can't dothose things. But he's telling them what to do AS MEMBERS OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH.

[percussivemadness]

33. sadly all this proves is how little you know

there is only one authority that governs Catholic faith on earth - the pope

I support with all my heart those who recognise and defend the law of God which governs human life. We must never forget that every person from the moment of conception to their last breath is a unique child of God and has a right to life. This right should be defended by the attentive care of the medical and nursing professions and by the protection of the law. Every human life is willed by our heavenly father and is a part of his loving plan.- John Paul II

Until the new pope issues a decree, the ban on abortion in the Catholic church remains. It is regarded as a mortal sin, meaning, that a catholic, you will not go to heaven.

Quoting an errant archbishop means absolutely nothing.

Peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Good thing there's God.

God overrides the Pope. Plus he's pro-choice.

[mondo joe]

54. You're still wrong about who is or isn't in the church.

History is filled with Catholics who disagreed with the Pope but were not excommunicated - and some were ultimately excommunicated.

It is possible to be Catholic and disagree.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Sure they are.

"do you actually know the Churches stance on abortion...? "

You mean the Vatican? They're against it. But it doesn't really matter what they think.

No if you want to look at a hypocrite, just look at the Pope. He says he's a Christian but he goes walking around in designer shoes, spreading AIDS by denying contraception, and then there's that whole Nazi thing.

"Catholics who are pro-abortion are the worst types"

So now you're saying there are types of Catholics on the abortion issue? Doesn't that contradict yourself? (that doesn't mean you're a hypocrite, PM, that just means you're not paying attention.)

[mondo joe]

28. Of course you can. You can be a member ofthe church and disagree with

aspects of the catechism. You can do so until such time as you are excommunicated or choose to leave.

[WildEyedLiberal]

38. 90% of Catholics aren't really Catholic then

Since at least that many use artificial birth control, which is also in defiance of a diktat from Rome.

It sure is a good thing that there's more to being Catholic (or insert religion here) than slavishly adhering to every shred of rigid orthodoxy.

[percussivemadness]

43. I totally agree with you

the hypocrisy in organised religion is staggering, and demonises gay rights, womens rights and causes more bloodshed in the world than any single thing.

I believe in God, but my God is the God Jesus actually taught about,the God of Love,not the fundy Christian God of hate, nor the Islamic god of hate and so on.

Unfortunately, all organised religion, be it Catholic/Protestant or any religion, are inherently hypocritical, and the only reason people subscribe to any particular "gang" is because they want their afterlife guaranteed.

Peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Apparently you're confused.

A hypocrite is somebody who says one thing and does another.

Not somebody who does one thing that somebody else said not to.

"I believe in God, but my God is the God Jesus actually taught about,the God of Love,not the fundy Christian God of hate, nor the Islamic god of hate and so on."

You realize that "God" is just the English word for "Allah," right? It's all the same guy?

[percussivemadness]

46. actually I`m not, you are confused

when you can grasp the whole point of my original post, namely that Craig is not a hypocrite based on his voting record, which is what virtually every thread on DU so far has tried to imply, then I will discuss the word hypocrite with you.

Until you can grasp that simple concept, there is no point in going round and round in circles.

Peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. How is he not a hypocrite?

His voting record was one that consistently oppressed homosexuals. Yet he was one.

Therefore he's a hypocrite.

It's exactly like when somebody claims that their a christian, yet is a bigot against catholics and muslims.

[mondo joe]

56. We can't help it that you don't know what HYPOCRITE means, or that Craig created

and ran on a platform which is itself hypocritical.

[LittleClarkie]

64. Perhaps they grasp it. They just disagree

Disagreeing with you doesn't mean they don't get what you're saying. They just think you're wrong.

As do I.

[WildEyedLiberal]

50. I agree, but...

Your attempt to compare John Kerry to Larry Craig confuses the hell out of me. Larry Craig is a hypocrite because HE openly professes to be against gay rights and decries homosexuality as "sinful" at every opportunity.

John Kerry is openly pro-choice, so he is not a hypocrite. It doesn't matter what the Catholic Church's official position is: obviously, he, like millions of other Catholics across the world, chooses to disregard that bit of dogma.

Now if John Kerry were openly saying that abortion was a sin, that it's evil, while he was secretly going out and forcing women to have abortions, then you'd have a valid comparison. As a matter of fact, there IS a vociferously anti-abortion politician who forced his girlfriend to get an abortion, back in the 70s... I think his initials are GWB...

[LittleClarkie]

60. Pro-life if given the choice himself, but he represents his constituents

And that fact that I know that means he's spoken on it, which in and of itself makes him different from Craig. He's not shoving his faith down anyone's throat. He has his beliefs, but he's voting the way his constituents want.

Craig has never made any such distinction.

[mondo joe]

15. More on John Kerry's stance on abortion:

Q: Some Catholic archbishops said that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that?
A: I completely respect their views. I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. That's why I support that. I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing hypocritical there.

[LittleClarkie]

59. If he hadn't made the distinction between personal and professional

THEN he'd have been a hypocrite.

[LittleClarkie]

57. No, because he made it clear with his rhetoric where he stood personally

and that he was voting for his constituents

Craig made no such distinction.

[karlrschneider]

7. Well, if he isn't a hypocrite, he's a dishonorable sleazeball. Has to be one or the other.

Doesn't much matter to me...

[laylah]

8. What is the difference?

[JuniperLea]

11. If that is the case...

And he was voting as his constituents would have him vote... he is still a hypocrite.

As a homosexual, he should have never run for office in a state that does not support homosexuals. Further, he should not have come out on numerous occasions to say he is not homosexual. If he is "old school" and forever closeted, he should have never run for office in any state.

I was born and raised in a town that celebrates our homosexual citizens with yearly parades and festivals. http://www.longbeachpride.org/ People know when they come here that we have a deep respect for all people. You can't come to Long Beach and expect to be welcomed for gay-bashing ideas. I would expect you can get the flavor of a town, city, state, by being aware of how they vote. I think it ill-advised to go into politics in an area without first having tested the waters to see if there are enough like-minded people to support you.

[pnwmom]

12. So you don't think any Democrats should run for office

if they're in the closet?

Barney Frank, for example, shouldn't have run? Barbara Jordon shouldn't have run?

[JuniperLea]

22. Not if they have no intention of coming out...

Or have an objection to being outted.

When someone is appointed to or runs for office, their background is going to be thoroughly picked through. That's how it happens; I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

If you don't want to be outted, don't hold office, because it's going to happen sooner or later.

[pnwmom]

45. I'm glad Barney Frank didn't think like you then.

I think he single handedly changed a lot of people's minds about homosexuality when he finally came out, but I'm sure he never planned it that way.

[JuniperLea]

53. Do you know for a fact he didn't plan it that way?

I'm not so sure.

[Roxy66]

13. He is a preacher of hate...period

[Toasterlad]

32. Please.

It is an elected officials job to do what's RIGHT for his constituents - ALL of them - not necessarily what they WANT. Do you realize that, following your logic, slavery would still be legal in the south? Women probably wouldn't have the right to vote?

This is the same faulty logic that leads sellouts like Hillary Clinton to declare that same-sex marriage is a state issue. You know what? You can't legislate civil rights by majority rule. Know why? Because the MAJORITY doesn't CARE that the MINORITY isn't equal. Only the minority cares.

Larry Craig is both a personal and a professional hypocrite, in that he disguised who he was AND failed to represent the best interests of state by supporting homophobia.

[percussivemadness]

35. so Bush think`s he`s doing what is right for America, what you want

is irrelevant.

Damn, I never knew there was so much support on DU for a dictatorship.

Peace

[Toasterlad]

48. Do You Not Get the Concept of "RIGHT"?

Bush cannot justify his prejudice against gay people short of pulling his trusty bible out of his ass. No republican can. Because saying gay people are not equal is NOT RIGHT, according to our Constitution.

Find me ONE justification for denying gay rights, and I'll grant your bogus dictatorship rant.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. He Benefitted By Voting Against His "Sexual Persuasion" As You Put It While Denying He Had That "Sex

ual Persuasion" And Therein Lies The Hypocrisy...

[percussivemadness]

37. so, would you vote for John Kerry or any candidate who said

they wouldn`t vote pro-life because it was against their religious beliefs?

peace

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. I'd be happy to vote for John Kerry vote against "pro-life"

regardless of his reason.

Maybe you phrased that question wrong?

[WildEyedLiberal]

41. What?

John Kerry is pro-choice because thank God he's not a slave to every whim of the Vatican. Neither are millions of American Catholics, who vote for Democrats every year.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I Wouldn't Vote For A Pro Life Candidate

You're missing the point...Larry Craig lied about being gay to get elected and then he voted against the interest of gays...

It would be like a black person who could pass for white and got elected on that subterfuge and voted against the interest of black people...

[mondo joe]

58. No. But he wouldn't be a hypocrite if he said that.

[LittleClarkie]

39. What about his rhetoric though

What you suggest is something Kerry has done, which is to vote pro-choice though perhaps his personl choice as a Catholic would lean more toward pro-life. But he was elected to represent them, not himself.

However, I've not seen where Craig has made that distinction. They elected a man they thought was like themselves and he has voted that way. He didn't need to ride Clinton or make many of the comments he's made if all he was doing was voting the way his constituents wanted him to. He's also been playing a role as well. And it would be mighty odd to say he's played that role because that's the role his constituents wanted him to play. If he's been playing that role then he's been faking his values so that he could get elected.

Which would make him a hypocrite.

[stillcool]

49. He's a fraud.

[blogslut]

51. George Wallace tried that logic

It didn't wash then. It doesn't wash now.

[book_worm]

52. It's unbelievable how some on this board will go to all lengths to defend this guy

I don't care if he's gay or not--he's a pervert and a hypocrite.

[LittleClarkie]

62. How do you reckon he's a pervert?

Hypocrite I get.

But pervert?

What part of being gay makes him a pervert?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. I Hate The Term Pervert

But his actions were inappropriate, illegal, and selfish...

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Wrong.

Integrity and protecting the Constitution are the Senator's first responsibilities.

When or whether his constituent's desire to discriminate conflict with basic human rights, he has a responsibility to do the right thing. No amount of bias back home excuses that.

Or did you support Strom Thurmond's actions during the fight for African American civil rights in the 60s?

This is always a loser of an argument.