NYT editorial: Locked, Loaded and Looney (Sen. Coburn blocking suicide prevention bill)

[ProSense]

Editorial

Locked, Loaded and Looney

Published: August 30, 2007

As the Army’s suicide rate hits record levels in the Iraq war, there’s small wonder practically everyone in Congress wants to deal with the parallel emerging crisis of depressed veterans tempted to take their own lives. Everyone, that is, except Senator Tom Coburn, Republican of Oklahoma. He stands alone in blocking final passage of a suicide prevention bill in fear that the government’s record-keeping on troubled vets might somehow crimp their ability to purchase handguns.

Even the craven gun lobby should manage some shame over this absurd example of Second Amendment idolatry.

The House has unanimously approved a measure mandating the screening of all veterans for suicide risk, but Senator Coburn worries that veterans’ medical data might be appropriated by other agencies to deny that all-encompassing right to wield arms on the domestic front.

The senator’s office points to another bill near passage — prompted by the Virginia Tech gun massacre — that would encourage states to do a better job of listing mentally troubled individuals on the federal roll of risky gun purchasers. But tying these two measures together is itself evidence of defective reasoning, or at least scurrilous politicking. The Virginia Tech measure has nothing to do with veterans and affects only those Americans formally judged by a court to be mentally disturbed.

It is an eminently good thing that the anti-suicide measure would require medical specialists to keep track of veterans found to be high risks for suicide. But that’s to care for them as human beings, under that other constitutional right — to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Respect for the grave sacrifices by veterans requires the Senate to strike down the Coburn ploy and hurry this vital measure to President Bush.

[TwilightGardener]

1. Coburn won't allow any perceived erosion of the second amendment

even at the possible cost of diagnosed high-suicide-risk soldiers being allowed to purchase guns to kill themselves. We see where his priorities lie. Obama, WHY???

[BOSSHOG]

2. Sure wouldn't want a person with suicide ideations prevented from buying a gun

Wow, the lunacy of the right is just overwhelming. Hey coburn the second amendment says we all should be heavily armed FOR SAFETY'S SAKE.

[ComerPerro]

11. no kidding. gotta make sure that people contemplating suicide can still buy guns

[jody]

3. "mandating the screening of all veterans for suicide risk" then screen all citizens periodically.

Veterans have enough problems without this discriminatory law.

[Solon]

4. Why would the law be discriminatory?

Veterans, I would think, would be considered a high risk group for suicide, and should be subjected to periodical psychiatric screenings. In fact, they should be given, as a matter of course, free psychiatric for the rest of their lives, if they ever wish it, and those that show themselves to be symptomatic should have mandatory treatment.

[jody]

8. What if we required testing for Native Americans or Hispanic females?

CDC Facts At A Glance

Racial and Ethnic Disparities
• Among American Indians/Alaska Natives ages 15- to 34-years, suicide is the second leading cause of death (CDC 2005).

• Suicide rates among American Indian/Alaskan Native adolescents and young adults ages 15 to 34 (21.4 per 100,000) are 1.9 times higher than the national average for that age group (11.5 per 100,000). (CDC 2005).

• Hispanic female high school students in grades 9-12 reported a higher percentage of suicide attempts
(14.9%) than their White, non-Hispanic (9.3%) or Black, non-Hispanic (9.8%) counterparts. (Eaton et al.
2006).

[ProSense]

5. It's not a discrimatory law!

The U.S. isn't screening all citizens for PTSD and other ill-effects of war. It's bad enough that a number of veterans who need and are crying out for help are falling through the cracks of a failed system. I would hope that anyone who is discovered to be suicidal would get the proper care. Why would anyone want to deny Military veterans treatment?

[jody]

9. See post #8 above. n/t

[ProSense]

14. I think you're misreading the article.

No one is requiring anyone be tested. This isn't about mandatory testing, it's about veterans who have already been found to be high risk.

[jody]

16. Please reread the OP. I quoted the material to which I objected. n/t

[ProSense]

19. Veterans are always tested.

Whenever a soldier separates from the military, physicals are required prior to separation, this is especially important and required after leaving a war zone. This is how they determine if soldiers qualify for benefits. The bill is simply adding suicide screening, given the high rate of suicide in recent years. This is about suicide risks. If they are determined to be at risk for suicide, this bill kicks in.

[jody]

22. Having gone through the process, I'm familiar with it but the current system does not

include mandatory "suicide risk" screening for everyone leaving the military.

[ProSense]

26. I said it's adding it!

Do you believe veterans should be tested for PTSD? Whenever a soldier leaves the battlefield and leaves the military if they are to get veterans' benefits they have to be tested and diagnosed.

You are complaining about some a measure that could save lives.

[jody]

28. I'm pointing out that mandatory screening of veterans for suicide risk and then entering that data

in a data base treats veterans differently than other citizens.

That's discriminatory.

If it's mandatory for veterans, then it should be mandatory for all other law-abiding citizens.

[ProSense]

29. Then test all law-abiding citizen for PTSD.

This is a ridiculus argument.

[jody]

30. PTSD does not lead to a veteran losing a basic right enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Don't you

know that a person designated as a suicide risk loses her/his right to keep and bear arms for self-defense?

What protections does a veteran have against false diagnosis?

Who bears the cost of contesting a false diagnosis?

How is a veteran protected against misuse of her/his medical history?

Do want your medical records placed in a quasi public data base?

[ProSense]

31. Don't you know that a person who is a suicide risk

might actually kill themselves him/herself with a gun?

Who determines how blind one has to be to lose the right to have a driver's license?


Edited

[jody]

32. I know that, so we should require periodic, mandatory screening for suicide risk for all citizens.

When do you want to be screened?

The question I posed was why discriminate against veterans?

[ProSense]

33. Everyone isn't eligible for veterans' benefits.

I don't think the military is planning on picking up veterans who have been out of the military for six years and screening them. Do you? This is about the ill-effects of combat, and related to going forward, not a sweeping order to round up and test the entire population of military veterans, regardless of when they separated or retired from the military.

[jody]

34. The issue is not VA benefits, it's whether a special group should be required to be screened for

suicide risk and have that information placed in a quasi-public data base and not treating all other citizens the same way.

That's discrimination as I pointed out in post # 21.

That's the issue I raised in post #3 in response to a quote given in the OP.

[Karenina]

35. I've just read and re-read your exchanges.

HOLY SHIT, You're BOTH RIGHT!!! :applause: WHAT to do? WHAT TO FUCKING DO??? :freak:

[jody]

36. The issue re rights is that some people will use a right in ways that the majority disapprove, e.g.

KKK parading its venomous lies, but freedom of speech for all must be supported.

In like fashion, all law-abiding citizens have a natural, inherent,inalienable right to defend self and property and handguns are the most effective, efficient tool for that job.

Suicide is a personal thing and if a person choose to use her/his handgun for suicide, that act should not be sufficient to deny law-abiding citizens the right to keep and bear arms.

IMO psychiatrist and psychologist are not capable of diagnosing "suicide risk" accurate enough to prevent considerable risk of false diagnosis.

Perhaps a DU member who is either a psychiatrist or psychologist could join in the discussion.

[ProSense]

37. It's about the military caring for troops and veterans.

Before you leave the military, a physical is required. That's not true of every job. This bill is about care, treatment and prevention (more information)

[jody]

38. Then why did you post "mandating the screening of all veterans for suicide risk"? That was your

decision and my question concerning the efficacy of the law was prompted by your post. :shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. So you're saying veterans shouldn't get veteran benefits?

That's one hell of a statement.

[jody]

13. What a ridiculous statement. I and all veterans should receive the benefits we earned.

What I objected to was the statement in the OP "The House has unanimously approved a measure mandating the screening of all veterans for suicide risk".

If a veteran is identified as a "suicide risk" and that's a very subjective decision, then she/he would lose their 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms or bear the burden and cost of proving in a court of law that the medical expert who classified her/him as a "suicide risk" was wrong.

Insurance companies could deny insurance and businesses could refuse to hire the person declared a "suicide risk".

As I pointed out in #8 above, other groups have a higher suicide rate than average and they should also be screened for "suicide risk" if veterans are screened. All at government cost of course.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. I agree, it's a ridiculous statement.

The idea that veterans are simply an ethnic minority or some such and should be treated exactly like everybody else is just plain ridiculous.

[jody]

17. With what specific part of my post #3 do you disagree? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. That it's a discriminatory law.

Duh.

[jody]

21. Discrimination "Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit".

Clearly "mandating the screening of all veterans for suicide risk" by law and no other group is discrimination.

If you don't see that, then we have nothing else to discuss on this issue.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. So then you're saying you're against veteran benefits?

Consistency, please.

[jody]

24. I see by your reply that you can't stick to the issue of mandatory screening for suicide risk as an

act of discrimination.

Goodbye :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Why would I? It's a ridiculous statement?

It's like saying veteran benefits are discriminatory.

[Trillo]

6. "Death with Dignity"

It's sad when someone is in so much pain that they feel they must take their own life, but whose life is it to take, and who is to say that those who decide to kill themselves made the wrong decision? Our constitution says we have a right to life, but we also are supposed to have liberty and pursuit of happiness. If one's pursuit of happiness is sufficiently wounded by life's experiences, under liberty, and free will, and choice, one should have the legal right to choose to kill oneself.

Millenniums of history have given the legal right to kill and murder others to a select few at the top of cultural hierarchies. That's what should be illegal, the taking away of another's life, life which is granted by nature as an inalienable right to each individual.

The choice to kill oneself should be protected. It should be a personal matter of freedom that authorities leave to each individual's personal authority without stigma or judgment.

lib·er·ty, n., pl. -ties.
1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.
3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

From Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary

The challenge for societies is to insure there is sufficient happiness in each individual's life that they do not choose to take their own life. Suicide is a final way of telling controllers in a hierarchical society that rulers failed to foster conditions that would have lead led to personal happiness, contentment, and satisfaction among each and every individual.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

12. this is satire... Right?

[sinkingfeeling]

7. I think 'Locked, Loaded and Looney' was Coburn's campaign slogon! It sure fits!

[Bluebear]

20. Horrible.

:(

[Vinca]

27. If someone's suicidal isn't it a good idea to "crimp" their ability

to buy handguns? These people are truly nuts.