Student Aid for Illegal Immigrants Sparks Debate

[The Straight Story]

Student Aid for Illegal Immigrants Sparks Debate

A small group of students rallied at the State Capitol (CA), pushing for legislation that would allow undocumented students living in California the opportunity to apply for state financial aid.

"I had to sacrifice a full ride," said Susan who did not want to give News10 her last name. "No one should have to go through what I went through."

Susan who came to the U.S. from South America when she was 7 years old, graduated from high school with a 4.3 grade point average and received more than $30,000 in scholarships, but she had to turn them down because of her immigration status.

Sen. Gil Cedillo from Los Angeles, the author of the measure, believes California needs to make this investment.

http://www.news10.net/display_story.aspx?storyid=32205

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. The last thing we want is to give people an education.

Just think of the consequences.

[AZBlue]

80. Yeah, especially those American citizens.

God forbid!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

97. I don't think it's an either/or, Silly.

[AZBlue]

98. Of course it is, silly.

There's already not enough to go around for all the qualifying citizens. If we then further lessen that amount by giving it to non-citizens, then it's either/or.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. There's not enough to go around for 4.3 GPA students?

I find that hard to believe.

[EFerrari]

113. I was one of those students in CA. There are need-based

and merit-based scholarships plus the random ones you can get for strange reasons from private groups.

Tuition has gone 'way up since then but it's very very hard for me to believe that there is so much competition for merit based scholarships that high achieving students are going without.

These damn illegals are getting the As we don't want to get. :rofl:

[Evoman]

119. BWAHAHAH

"These damn illegals are getting the As we don't want to get."

Gold. :rofl:

[AZBlue]

171. Glad you got something good!

I only got $1500 - didn't go far, even in my time.

[EFerrari]

179. It's never easy, is it? We're too busy funding weapons that go missing.

:(

If we spent half as much on our kids . . .

[Blue Belle]

174. Well, I can tell you there isn't as much as you think to go around...

I'm a 4.0 student (out of a 4.0 scale) and need-based, and believe me the $30,000 scholarships are VERY hard to get. Most kids are priced out of an education in this country, and I'm not talking about the B students... it's the students on honor roll. Pell grants have been cut, and the competition even the random private scholarships has increased.

[EFerrari]

178. I know Pell Grants have been cut and that's not only a shame but stupid.

I never got a scholarship that big but a bunch of smaller ones. I used to kid my family that my degree in English should be a degree in math because I spent so much time finding funding.

[Blue Belle]

186. I have a bunch of smaller scholarships too...

and the University I go to gave me a good sized amount of aid as well. I've managed to get 70% of my school paid for through scholarships and grants - and I'm on every scholarship data base I can find. I know a lot of need-based honor students that still struggle to get school paid for.

[EFerrari]

187. It is a struggle. I'm going back for another degree and am dealing

with it right now.

[Blue Belle]

193. I am just trying to complete my bachelor's...

but I want to go on for my master's degree and I'm already trying to work out how I'll pay for that one through scholarships and fellowships. It another element of stress added to my classload and studying for the GRE.

[EFerrari]

195. The GRE is about practicing the testing situation.

The material isn't hard. If you can write a timed three or four paragraph essay and have a good grounding in math, you'll be fine. What's hard is to be in that room with all those people who aren't breathing for all that time. Honest!

I have to figure out the money this weekend. Oh boy, I can't wait!

[Blue Belle]

197. Math is the problem...

It is not my strong point. I do fine on the writing, and after this term in school (wich is very writing intensive - 2 rhetoric classes and one political theory) the writing should be a snap. It's the math I worry about. I've been thinking of doing the Kaplan GRE study program, but it's expensive and I don't have a lot of funds to put toward it.

[EFerrari]

198. My GRE score proved I should never be entrusted with air traffic control

and I was admitted to a class of 19 in the English department at Berkeley that year.

You'll be fine, I promise you the ice cream treat of your choice. :party:

[Blue Belle]

203. I know you're probably right... I'm still worried.

The program I want is very competitive and I know there are a number of factors they consider (like GPA, GRE Score, Personal Statement, Letters of rec. etc.). I just don't want to be overlooked by a poor GRE score.

I do look forward to the icecream though.

[EFerrari]

204. Worry may be a form of excitement, which can help boost you

through the challenge.

My experience was, my score in my own field was important. No one seemed to care that I'd never taken calculus. fwiw.

I await your results and am sure they will be fine. :)

[Blue Belle]

205. I'll keep you posted.

I'm going to take a practice GRE in about a month - just to see where I'm at. Did you use a particular study system/book?

[EFerrari]

208. I used one of those books you can buy at any book store

and tried to duplicate the testing situation as best as I could. That's key, imho.

Because you walk in there knowing what you know -- which generally is plenty. But getting used to the stress of the situation makes the difference.

Go forth, kick @ss and claim your ice cream, Blue. :hug:


/oops

[Blue Belle]

209. Thanks!

I'll do my best! :)

[Progressive_In_NC]

134. I had a 4.8 on a 5.0 scale and a 1380 SAT and I got $1500 total

But then again I am a white male, and the education system was working so hard to right past inequities that I was left out, I am still paying for my education 14 years later. My sister got over 10 times that at the same school four years later, and she is done paying for hers.

Never mind that my parents supported a family of 4 on 22K a year, it still wasn't enough to qualify me for aid in 1994. I hope the pool is bigger now, I had a few friends who didn't come back after that first year's scholarship was done because they couldn't afford it.

Most of them lost interest in bettering themselves and now work State Government jobs 30-32 hours a week now. It's sad really, it killed their drive to succeed.



Edited because my two degrees still don't teach me how to spell

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

136. So you got a less than perfect GPA...

and you're a white male whining about being oppressed. So...

:shrug:

[Progressive_In_NC]

142. Not oppressed, just shocked at how little aid was available for someone with fairly low income

I'm fine with what happened in my life and now I am a highly paid consultant and doing just fine. My education was the key to that.

I just didn't realize that the playing field wasn't level when it came to aid the year I applied for it at UNC Greensboro. I cannot tell you how much my mom sat at the dinner table and cried when she realized I was going to walk out of my educational experience with around $32,000 in debt (from an in-state school). It's not easy no matter what race/sex you are to get an education in this country.

I graduated 4th in my class that year. Of the top 5 kids, one kid got a quarter athletic scholarship to Clemson, and the two girls got full rides to UNC and Wake Forest respectively. The guy who finished at the top of our class went to the Naval Academy.

My dad's company gave me $1500 bucks and then they fired him off for hurting his back on the job pulling freight, and then pointing out to two different government agencies that his boss didn't file a report at the time he reported it(NC is a right to work state you know).

I got no aid from the state and only loans from the feds.

Go figure.

[AZBlue]

173. 4.8 out of 5.0 deserves nothing???

[AZBlue]

172. Only 4.3 students should get scholarships?? Not much of a rebuttal there.

It's lame, but I'll go ahead and answer your question anyway: I can't speak personally about 4.3 students but from what I do know about the lack of funding for college students (I work with the Arizona education market), I wouldn't be surprised.

What about plain old 4.0? I personally know of three students last year alone who didn't get much at all for their 4.0. And that's absurd.

[acmavm]

2. BULLSHIT! I am a friggin' American who has worked for decades and

when I needed to go back to fucking school do you think I could get a goddamn deal like this? Hell friggin' NO. Neither can my kids. They have monster bills from trying to get enough of an education to make it in this god damn country. And now they want ILLEGAL aliens to be able to get the friggin' education that I can't get, that my kids can't get???????????????????????????????????????

Whoa, I don't think so. They need to petition the government of whatever country they came from for that privilege. And I don't care where it was. Mexico, Nigeria, China, Russia, where the fuck ever.

[Evoman]

4. Um.....

She has been here since she was 7. Given the fact that she was was probably 17 when she graduated, that would mean her parents would have been working here for 10 years. This girl is as American as you are, dude.

Besides all that, instead of blocking other people from getting ahead, maybe you should be petitioning for better access to financial aid as well. I mean...this girl worked her ass off. She graduated with an amazing GPA, meaning she is smart...your country needs people like her. She managed to get 30 000 dollars in SCHOLARSHIPS....she has proven herself despite the odds against her.

[acmavm]

5. Knock it off. This 'politcally correct' bullshit just doesn't cut it anymore. The

country isn't taking care of its own citizens and it's not taking care of people who had the integrity to get here legally. We don't owe it to anyone who's biggest accomplishment to date has been to circumvent the immigration laws and sneaking into the country. They want a damn education, they need to go back 'home' and get it. I don't care if she's a rocket scientist, we are letting people in this country go with shelter, healthcare, food, and education. People who have a RIGHT to expect those 'luxuries'. Since we can't take care of our own and the people who got in here by following the law, no one should give a damn about worrying about college educations for those who didn't. Or the children of those who didn't. She needs to take this issue up with her parents. This is not our responsibility.

[Evoman]

6. She was 7.

She did not choose to go to your country, did she? But she grew up there, and now she is as American in spirit as you are.

And do you think that people like her...a girl who wants to go to college, and has worked hard to get there, are letting people go without shelter, healthcare and food.

No, my friend. It is Americans LIKE YOU who are doing that by voting in fucking pissants that are selling your country down the river. Your blaming the wrong people.


On edit: Oh yeah...and what is it thats stopping you and your kids from getting scholarships?

[acmavm]

7. I'll tell you what, you put her and any other illegal through school. Pay for

it yourself. Start a fund.

One of mt kids did get some scholarship aid. But not enough. Not a 'full boat' and she was in the top 5 per cent of her class. Went to Washington D.C. with other kids in her bracket.

Nope, not our problem.

Oh, and as for the way I vote, I've voted a straight democratic ticket my whole life. So give up the Amazing Kreskin shit.

[Evoman]

9. I would...I'd start a fund for her if I could.

And then people like you would yell at me.

And I'm not saying you personally voted your leaders. I mean AMERICANS like you...fully legal Americans. AMERICANS are responsible for what is happening to America. AMERICANS are responsible for creating the situation you and your children are in. You are angry at the wrong people.

Do you seriously think that this girl, educated and smart, is BAD for your country? What did she do wrong apart from coming out between the wrong fucking legs?

[acmavm]

15. Stating that Americans should foot the bills for educating illegal aliens.

She can't be that smart if she thinks we owe everyone who manages to sneak into the country a college education.

[Evoman]

18. OWE HER?

She got a fucking 4.3 GPA and 30 000 dollars in scholarship money. She is a productive member of your society, as much as you seem to hate people like her.


And missing from the OP:

""California is the fifth largest economy in the world," said Cedillo. "We have to have an educated workforce to maintain our global competitiveness."

Cedillo claims the program will not take away scholarships from legal citizens .

"No student here would be bumped as a result of this new program," said Cedillo. "What we are doing is that, that money is being sent back to the state, that money should be invested in quality education for every Californian."

[acmavm]

24. Yes, we need and educated workforce. Of people who are SUPPOSED

TO BE HERE. Not people here ILLEGALLY. Anyone who managed to get through the immigration process and make it here legally deserves to be able to get an education. Otherwise, they need to go back where they belong and petition that government for scholarships and aid.

What part of that can people like you and this other 'person' not get?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

32. It wasn't her fault her parents came here illegally.

She's spent the majority of her life in America and has an outstanding GPA to boot. We'd be stupid not to help her out, since she is clearly going to be a productive member of society.

[Evoman]

35. But...them...them mexicans/SA's are a takin' us jobs.

Dun matter none that she is for all intents and purpose is American, is fucking smart, and works hard. She dun come 'cross the border when she wa sebin. She shoulda known better. Go back ta mexico, you learned, intelligent girl.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. Mexico is in South America?

Wow, they must have moved it! :)

[Evoman]

61. Yeah yeah.

I'm just so used to people hating Mexicans, that I forget that they hate South Americans too.

P.S. I am South American. And I'm lucky enough that Canada took us in legally as refuges. Even then, there are still fuck-wits who would probably tell me to "go back to my own country". After all, I had a 4.0 GPA too and I'm sure I took scholarships from well deserved, TRUE Canadian white kids.

[Marrah_G]

100. Would you have gotten that scholarship if you were in Canada illegally?

[Evoman]

103. Yeah, probably.

I doubt Canada would have either refused me the money or deported me. This country hasn't completely gone to the deep end of racism, anti-intellectualism, and "fairness" at the cost of humanity.

[Matariki]

111. You're lucky actually.

Do you realize how difficult it would be for most of us US citizens to immigrate to Canada. I'd love to live in Canada.

[Evoman]

114. Yes. I know how lucky I am.

I almost didn't make it here. But the difference is that, not being born here, I KNOW HOW LUCKY I AM. People born here, and in the States, have this sense of entitlement....like they somehow DESERVE to live the good life and everybody else can (while making a compassionate face) go to hell. Nevermind that it was the United States involvement in my country of origin that caused my parents to be hunted like animals. American policies affects other countries, and the leaders you vote in cause problems, and then you don't want to take responsability for the effects of your involvement.

I was given a chance, and I took it, and I've made something of my life. I didn't waste my time causing trouble in school and slacking off like a lot of my peers. I fully plan on paying back my country for the help I was given.

[Megahurtz]

132. Canada Would NEVER

give you a Scholarship if you were illegal, you would be deported, pronto.
Why do you expect another Country to forgo it's own Citizens to do something like this? :shrug:

And BTW not all true Canadians are White FYI.

[acmavm]

36. What part of her saying illegals should get scholarships is escaping you?

Her whining that she missed out on a 'full boat' because of her immigration status? So she's a victim of some bad circumstances, mainly that her parents started their life in this country by committing a crime. No, that's not her fault. But to think that just because she's intelligent entitles her to state that people here illegally should be given educational aid tells me that she's not quite as smart as some people make her out to be.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Violating immigration policy is a civil offense

And a civil offense is not a crime.

[acmavm]

44. Wrong Ms. I have three college degrees...

Under the old immigration laws:

The crime of illegal entry is a misdemeanor for the first offense, subject to a maximum sentence of only six months, even for aliens with serious criminal records.

Under the new immigration laws:

"Secure Borders, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Reform Act of 2007"


SEC. 206. ILLEGAL ENTRY.

(a) In General- Section 275 (8 U.S.C. 1325) is amended to read as follows: 'SEC. 275. ILLEGAL ENTRY.'(a) In General-'(1) CRIMINAL OFFENSES- An alien shall be subject to the penalties set forth in paragraph (2) if the alien--'(A) knowingly enters or crosses the border into the United States at any time or place other than as designated by the Secretary of Homeland Security; '(B) knowingly eludes examination or inspection by an immigration officer (including failing to stop at the command of such officer), or a customs or agriculture inspection at a port of entry; or '(C) knowingly enters or crosses the border to the United States by means of a knowingly false or misleading representation or the knowing concealment of a material fact (including such representation or concealment in the context of arrival, reporting, entry, or clearance requirements of the customs laws, immigration laws, agriculture laws, or shipping laws).'(2) CRIMINAL PENALTIES- Any alien who violates anyprovision under paragraph (1)--'(A) shall, for the first violation, be fined under title 18, United States Code, imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both; '(B) shall, for a second or subsequent violation, or following an order of voluntary departure, be fined under such title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both; '(C) if the violation occurred after the alien had been convicted of 3 or more misdemeanors or for a felony, shall be fined under such title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both; '(D) if the violation occurred after the alien had been convicted of a felony for which the alien received a term of imprisonment of not less than 30 months, shall be fined under such title, imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both; and '(E) if the violation occurred after the alien had been convicted of a felony for which the alien received a term of imprisonment of not less than 60 months, such alien shall be fined under such title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.'(3) PRIOR CONVICTIONS- The prior convictions described in subparagraphs (C) through (E) of paragraph (2) are elements of the offenses described in that paragraph and the penalties in such subparagraphs shall apply only in cases in which the conviction or convictions that form the basis for the additional penalty are--'(A) alleged in the indictment or information; and '(B) proven beyond a reasonable doubt at trial or admitted by the defendant.'(4) DURATION OF OFFENSE- An offense under this subsection continues until the alien is discovered within the United States by an immigration officer. '(5) ATTEMPT- Whoever attempts to commit any offense under this section shall be punished in the same manner as for a completion of such offense.'(b) Improper Time or Place; Civil Penalties-Any alien who is apprehended while entering, attempting to enter, or knowingly crossing or attempting to cross the border to the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty, in addition to any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed under any other provision of law, in an amount equal to--'(1) not less than $50 or more than $250 for each such entry, crossing, attempted entry, or attempted crossing; or '(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) if the alien had previously been subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Never mind.

Misread that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. So the immigration lawyer I know who defends immigrants in court

and knows this law far better than you or I do is wrong?

Yeah right.

BTW, great link!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. I think you're right.

That's why immigrants in violation are simply deported, instead of given a jury trial, fined, imprisoned, etc.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Exactly.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

47. You act like any illegal immigrant will get aid.

The article also states citizens and legal immigrants won't be negatively affected by this proposal, plus this particular girl has an amazing GPA by any standard -- legal or illegal.

If she doesn't get aid, she won't be able to realize her full potential. Would you rather she forgoes that chance?

[acmavm]

52. I don't think I really care about her GPA. I worry about poor black kids

who live in horrific neighborhoods and would love to get out but can't because they can't afford a college education. I really pity the young kids on the Indian Reservations. They have been totally overlooked and forgotten. No one's worrying about them. That's what astounds me. They blatant hypocrisy here. All the worry about the poor illegals when all you have to do is get in your car and drive a few blocks and you can see kids that no one gives a damn about. Kids who'd love to have a piece of the life that you commend those that sneak into the country to get. They live here, they're in your city, and I've never seen anything from you people defending them. Do you all think that none of them are smart enough to deserve a college education? Do you not think that they deserve a change at a better life or do you think that the same excuse you have for Susan, who is just a victim of circumstances, should not go for them as well?

I don't buy it. I never will. It's like so much here on DU. The hypocrisy and bullshit is so blatant it's almost worthy of a bad comedy show.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

53. Are you the scarecrow from The Wizard of Oz?

I have never seen such a bullshit strawman so perfectly wrapped up before.

Like the article said, these scholarships for illegals *will not* affect scholarships for non-illegals -- that includes people like those poor kids in NOLA and on Indian reservations.

And how do you know what other DUers feel about those kids? Do you seriously believe those with enough compassion for illegal immigrants WON'T have the same compassion for the unfortunate native-born citizens?

[knight_of_the_star]

183. You're missing the bigger picture here

Just because the scholarships ON PAPER won't affect scholarships for citizens doesn't mean they won't. By giving those scholarships to people who BROKE THE LAW to get into this country you are using money that could go for citizens in this country who are living hand in mouth and are stuck in crushing poverty yet are ignored because they're already in this country.

I'll tell you this much, if you TRIED to do something like this in Mexico you would disappear into a cold cell until they got around to deporting your ass out of their country.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. If it's really about poor black kids...

why'd it start off in post #2 by being all about you?

You wouldn't just be using poor black kids, would you?

[acmavm]

55. I used me and mine as an example of what I know PERSONALLY. I am

now talking about overlooked Americans in general. This whole issue is ridiculous. No one here illegally should be rewarded just because they been successful in staying one step ahead of the immigration authorities.

You want to make life better for kids? Try the ones trapped in a dead-end lifestyle where the only successful businessman you see is the neighborhood crack dealer. You know, the ones that were born here and then forgotten right after that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. Uh huh.

Sure.

[acmavm]

58. You're just pissed because I called you and people like you on your

blatant hypocrisy. Yep, I had a personal story to relate. But you know what, I should have started with the kids that people like you just love to forget exist. You can't portray yourselves as some big shot liberal do gooder sticking up for the underdog if it's just some poor black kid or Indian kid. Nope, no glory in that, is there? You'll go for the hot botton issue, the one where you're in the minority and that way you can tell yourselves what gloriously wonderful humanitarians you are.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. What hypocrisy?

I think anybody who gets a 4.3 GPA should get a free college education?

What is it with all these people recently who don't understand the concept of hypocrisy? I know weren't a 4.3 student or anything, but damn, it's not that hard a concept.

[EFerrari]

122. I wonder why you'd equate supporting this young woman with

discriminating against Native Americans or blacks? Many Latinos are both. :wtf:

[Megahurtz]

135. I Think The Point Is

there are many forgotten Citizens in the U.S. living in Poverty that need the assistance whatever Color they are. Fuck the Racial Shit because by the way there are millions of poor White people too. White people that are poor do not get free rides, in fact they get even less help because they are not a supposed "Minority". Lets get off of the stupid Color issue, because when it comes down to it, it's all about how much money one has, and if they are a Citizen or not.

Sorry for the rant but I just get fucking sick and tired of this attitude that White people get all the fucking perks and special treatment. That's total Bullshit, it's just the opposite, especially for those who are living in Poverty.

:rant:

[EFerrari]

139. "Fuck the Racial Shit"? I respectfully beg to differ.

This nation has a long history of f#cking over brown people. By every metric. If you don't think it's real, you aren't paying attention AND you are unfamiliar with the history of your own government, which was founded on a genocide and powered by slavery.



People in need are set against each other by people in power.

It's easier for them to redirect our attention to each other. Imagine that.

[Megahurtz]

145. History Is Gone

today is today. I'm talking about 2007. These days our Government fucks over White people too, at times even more because they don't have rights as a "Minority". It doesn't matter what Color you are, it's all about money these days, and if you have none you are garbage in their eyes.

Why are you bringing up History? So people that are White that had nothing to do with History are supposed to be ignored and treated like shit today because of it? Well I respectfully beg to differ on that one.

No one is going to get anywhere if people keep dragging Racial History through the mud.

[EFerrari]

150. It's not history if it's still happening. And it seems to me to be

ridiculous to blame the victims as you are doing.

Yes, white people are now treated as brown people have always been treated in this joint. That's not the fault of brown people.

Geezus

[Megahurtz]

153. Who's Blaming Any Victims?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

158. You did.

"Fuck the Racial Shit because by the way there are millions of poor White people too. White people that are poor do not get free rides, in fact they get even less help because they are not a supposed "Minority""

And you might want to check the poverty stats that break down into ethnics groups. The stats for people who get stopped by cops. The stats for people who are in prison and who are executed. The stats for high school drop outs. The stats for longevity.

Then get back to me about this "racial shit".

Free ride, my granny. Young men of color are lucky to survive into retirement age.

[coco77]

144. Thank you!

[Megahurtz]

155. Your Welcome!

:hi: I knew there were others out there that feel like this too, but they usually never speak up!

[coco77]

157. You notice if anything comes up...

related to this the post drops like a stone, or the poster usually gets called every name in the book. A lot of this stuff is common sense. The Dems will have a problem if they keep on talking in nuances. They should talk now so everyone knows where they stand because this is what then Republicons will beat them over the head with whoever the candidate is..

[EFerrari]

182. That's right. Democrats should just take clearly xenophobic positions

so there will be no doubt where they stand on Election Day.

[coco77]

192. What do you want them to say...

let's accept the anyone who wants to come and give them more rights than americans and to hell with the citizens. Why not explain what they think because if they don't now they will begin having problems after the primaries. For your information I am not a xenophobe. I care about this country. There are many people in this country who care about illegal immigration and it is not about hispanics its about enforcing the laws or changing them so that they can work. What is your suggestion about the immigration situation?

Tell me what is your plan? I continue to not understand how a country can see all of the problems that we have and claim that we are fighting terrorists and do not want to do anything about it or the other problems related to illegals or visa's. If the government took care of its citizens first we wouldn't have a lot of the problems that we have now. How can a country invite people from other countries here because they claim they have skills americans don't but in the meantime, they don't want to train the people who already are citizens for the those jobs. This country complains about people on welfare, poor, or ghettos. But they don't do anything about it. They rather ship in more people while american born citizens can go to hell. I am sick and tired of people beating around the bush just because we vote for Dems doesn't mean that we agree on every issue. Everyone seems to be afraid to say how they really feel about certain issues because they will be called names or will be pegged as a freeper/troll.

[EFerrari]

194. There were no Mexican hijackers on those plane on 9/11

But, imho, a good plan would be,

Stop US disruptions of democracy in Latin America -- right now, at minimum we're trying to oust Chavez and Morales. Recently, we helped the rightwingers in Mexico steal the election from the progressive. How many people do you think that will drive North? If we cut that out, people will be able to stay home IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Nafta and Cafta have to go. Bury them in a really deep hole. Again, people will be able to stay home and work IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I'd give amnesty to people who are already here, have no criminal record and who are employed. Bringing people out of the shadows makes it easier to collect taxes and is also safer for the whole community.

A guest worker program might be a good idea *if* employers were made to pay minimum wage or union scale for those jobs that are still unionized. That levels the playing field, if it doesn't in fact give the advantage to English speaking workers.

As far as the borders go, these four elements would likely reduce traffic at the borders and make law enforcement's job easier there.

But, this will never happen. The kleptocrats are making too much money to keep their grubby hands off of Latin America or to repeal Nafta. They will balk against protecting wages. And American workers will persist in viewing other workers as the enemy instead of making common cause with them which would really put the corporati in a pickle. :shrug:

[coco77]

196. You and I agree on a lot except for...

the amnesty because there will be a lot of different types of circumstances that will affect how it will be administered. I did not say that mexicans were terrorists or whatever you want to call the people that bush has labeled as such. I bring up the borders because over the years I have heard of people of middle eastern being caught on the border pretending to be hispanic.

I have also heard of all types of people being caught coming across the mexican border as well as the canadian border and if bush claims to be fighting a war on terror we need to know who is here and what is going on because they country is being destroyed from the inside, while dumbo is playing president. The Dems want to play it safe and are not discussing key issues now they are waiting while the CONS are building up all of their talking points for each candidate. One more thing, I don't understand how a country does not watch or protect their borders even if there weren't a so called war on terror.

[EFerrari]

199. Imho, we need to push away the fear talk and really look at the issues.

That won't be easy to do while Bush is in office and while our media is wholly owned by BushCo. :(

[Evoman]

57. Man, there is so only so much compassion I can muster.

I want to give this girl a free ride (because getting a scholarship for working hard is totally a free ride), but for some reason, I can't also muster up some concern for poor black kids and indians :eyes:.

Those poor kids need better funded schools. Those kids need people that give a damn. Those kids need to have readibly available assistance, so that if they have potential, they can realize it in college. Who the hell is going to argue that? Do you think that the girl in the OP is taking money away from them? Do you think she doesn't deserve it because her parent brought her here when she was seven.

She is not the problem. The problem is people like you who are distracted from the real fucking problems in your country, and shift the blame on people you consider lesser than you. This girl is American. She probably barely remembers South America. Kicking her the fuck out, and others like her, despite all of their potential and despite their having spent their life in your country, is disgusting.

[NashVegas]

116. Immigrants Want to Do/Be What the Controlling Interests Happen to Respect

Immigrants want the American Dream - the one where you work your ass off, play it smart, save money, take some risks with it, contribute to your community, and go onto thrive.

The natural-born citizens they are supplanting are the ones who bought the middle-class servant dream; get the safe job, punch in, punch out, spend your life in labor for a company that is loyal to you.

Those companies aren't loyal anymore, and many multi-generation Americans still haven't made the necessary adjustments to adapt and thrive by taking risks.

[Megahurtz]

133. HERE! HERE!

:applause: Great post!

The ignorance from others is astounding.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

137. You know what's astounding?

Some people don't want to give a 4.3 GPA student a college education because her parents didn't have the right paperwork when she was seven years old.

That's stupid any way you cut it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. What is ignorant is that we are being told that giving this girl a scholarship

somehow discriminates against others. :shrug:

[alarimer]

59. She fucking EARNED it

How many natives do you know that have a 4.3 GPA? Not many.

Get over yourself.

[Blue Belle]

176. A lot of native Americans have a 4.3 GPA...

I can tell you from experience that having a 4.3 GPA doesn't earn you a golden ticket to a college education.

[EFerrari]

120. That's backwards. When we begin to treat undocumented people

as PEOPLE, the process of immigration reform will really begin.

[Evoman]

33. The part where she is SEVEN

and this is the only country she knows. The part of us that has compassion for people who have not been as lucky as us at winning the parent lottery.

[Critters2]

112. Actually, an educated workforce will expect to be paid a living wage

which will increase the calls from employers for the right to bring in more foreign workers.

What we need is enforcement of immigration laws.

[noamnety]

64. There was a woman I met in Slidell

who was doing Katrina Relief work with me - for free - willingly staying in a tent at a place with no electricity. When she was done with that, she was going to medical school on a 4 year full scholarship.

Thoughts? Was she hurting the community or helping it?

[Mr. Blonde]

79. She was no doubt helping it, but

at the same time I'm sure there were many legal residents doing the same thing.

Being a good person doesn't change the fact that they are not here legally.

[noamnety]

81. ah, but she was a US citizen.

and the full scholarship to med school wasn't from the US, it was from Cuba.

Whenever a major disaster strikes somewhere, he offers up medical training to residents of that country. When Katrina hit, he was asked if he would do the same for the US. He agreed to. She received one of those scholarships.

Are you pissed at Castro for this?

[Mr. Blonde]

83. Why would I be mad at Castro for it?

It is inherently different from what is being discussed here. Castro is asking for people to come legally (at least by Cuban law) to learn at Cuban institutions. This is to help people here illegally continue to stay here illegally and get an education paid for by people here legally.

[noamnety]

84. I bring it up to highlight the issues raised here

If the concern is truly that it's hurting Americans in some way to have foreigners' college paid for, then you would be equally concerned that Cubans were being hurt that their money was being spent to pay for a foreigners' education.

[Mr. Blonde]

86. Concerned, maybe. Equally concerned, no way

Maybe I should get with it more, but I have a hard time being as concerned about other countries as I am my own.

And I'm guessing that all education in Cuba is free for Cubans as well. That changes things dramatically as well. Even though the argument that they won't be paying into the system remains, it is harder to bitch when you are already taken care of.

[noamnety]

88. "I have a hard time being as concerned ...

... about other countries as I am my own."

Did you mean to say that, or did you mean "I have a hard time being as concerned about people who aren't American as I am about those who are." Really, you're saying some people are worth more to you than others based on their nationality.

That's a well traveled path, but it doesn't lead anywhere good.

[Mr. Blonde]

90. I mean what I said

to a certain extent that includes the people yes. Cubans and other countries are free to run their country and educational system how they see fit. I'm more concerned with the US where my vote counts.

Maybe it is just the way I was brought up, but I am a firm believer in taking care of yourself and your own before you worry about others. Like in this case where we have a lot of headway to make in improving the education and opportunities for higher education for citizens before we should start worrying about people who are not citizens.

[noamnety]

96. This is why, in a disaster,

I'd rather stick with the immigrants than Americans, if I knew nothing else about the two groups.

Americans love to toss you overboard if they are concerned about their food supply or space, or anything else, and they always got some arbitrary "well, you aren't one of us" reasons why it's right and just to throw you to the sharks. Some people draw the line at race (we gotta take care of white folks first, that's just natural). Some replace race with nationality - which is why I think nationalism is a curse on the world. Always has been. Always will be.

I don't believe this is really about "where your vote counts" deep down. I think this has to do with feeling that because you were born into one of the most privileged countries in the world, you feel you are inherently entitled to more than those other people. If they chose to be born into a country where there are no jobs and no clean water and lots of pollution that US companies caused which ruined their ability to fish for a living, that's their own lot in life, and therefore it's what they deserve.

It's sort of like royalty and peasants - some people are just born into less. That's no reason the royalty should have their wealth threatened - they've had it for generations, therefore they have a moral right to it. They can't be expected to live like the peasants. They're entitled to better - it's their birthright.

[Mr. Blonde]

181. I don't believe I'm inherently entitled to more

I believe people aren't entitled to break laws in order to even the playing field.

Or are people completely justified in doing whatever is necessary to get ahead?

Does it suck for them they were born into less than ideal circumstances? Yes. But people have been following the law and improving their station in life for centuries. Why all of a sudden is it ok to not do that?

[noamnety]

185. "Let them eat cake"

They were born into more dire circumstances than you.

You don't want the law changed to make the playing field level, because you enjoy your privileges and entitlements. You don't want them to have the same.

That's not a humanitarian position, it's a greedy self-serving position.

[IdaBriggs]

188. Or it could just be common sense "Clan Loyalty."

"Americans love to toss you overboard if they are concerned about their food supply or space, or anything else (snip)"

Well, duh! Take care of your own family FIRST, and then be generous with what you can spare.

Historically, this is NORMAL -- and realistically, its wise. Airlines tell you to make sure you've got oxygen yourself before helping others because if you pass out, other people have to help YOU in an emergency.

It comes down to "needs" versus "wants" -- the pot of money is limited (not limitless), and decisions have to be made about how to spend it. Not defending some of the examples you provide, but seriously -- come on! Perhaps you know people who use *all* of their resources to take care of other people, saving nothing for themselves or their children, but frankly the only reason Jesus got away with that crap was his miraculous ability to magically multiply loaves and fishes! Other folks who did it would have been listening to their own children crying with hunger before starving to death -- and that is irresponsible in my opinion.

[noamnety]

189. I understand the family first thing

because those are people you have a strong emotional bond with.

But clan loyalty when it extends to people you don't even know, just because they share key characteristics with you, that's racism, not common sense. "Klan" loyalty is the proper spelling for that, I believe.

[IdaBriggs]

190. I am using "Clan" in the historical (I think?) Scottish sense --

where your "clan" or "family" isn't just the immediate people sharing your home, but the good people in your village/extended family who can be counted on to help you when you are in need. It makes sense to me that you take care of the people who will also be taking of you if you or yours need it, and then using what you can do without to help others farther away. Its good to be generous, but never at the expense of "our own" and I think one of the reasons people are having a problem with helping "illegal" immigrants is that so many "legal" residents (who pay taxes and contribute to roads, schools, fire departments, etc.) are in need.

This is a multi-faceted issue and "racism" may be a part of it -- strangers who are "different" are dangerous, and they are competing for "limited" resources -- but I don't think its just a color/class thing, altho ignoring those aspects of things strikes me as naive. That's my opinion, anyway.

[noamnety]

191. "never at the expense of our own"

That's exactly the rationale used to turn away the St. Louis.

Many of the passengers died in the concentration camps.

"American public opinion, although ostensibly sympathetic to the plight of refugees and critical of Hitler's policies, still favored immigration restrictions. The Great Depression had left millions of Americans unemployed and fearful of economic competition for the scarce few jobs available. It also fueled antisemitism, xenophobia, nativism, and isolationism. A Fortune Magazine poll at the time indicated that 83 percent of Americans opposed relaxing restrictions on immigration."

"At about the same time that the St. Louis passengers were seeking a haven, the Wagner-Rogers bill, which would have permitted the admission of 20,000 Jewish children from Germany outside the existing quota, was allowed to die in committee."

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005267

How anyone can feel proud of that piece of our history, how they can defend it and want to repeat it, is beyond me.

[LanternWaste]

125. And through this example...

And through this example, I realize that there truly are people, even on the left, who value imaginary red and black lines on a map over humanity...

Who value "us" over "them"...

Who value "mine" more than "ours"...

Because in the end, that's all it really comes down to.

[Mr. Blonde]

180. OK fine they are imaginary lines

but they are important imaginary lines. If you want to cross them and enjoy the good things about it, you have to go through the bad things like paying taxes too.

If people want to live here, fine go through the proper channels. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned if they are willing to follow the law.

[Marrah_G]

101. So Castro is giving scolarships to people who enter cuba illegally?

[noamnety]

163. He's giving scholarships to people

who owe him absolutely nothing in return and don't contribute to HIS country in anyway. :)

Have you seen sicko? Remember how those people got medical care in Cuba without paying, without being residents, without being anything other than fellow human beings who needed medical help?

That was how life should be.

[treestar]

74. If whoever gives that scholarship is willing, why not?

They are in exactly the position you described.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Wow how progressive of you!

Non citizens are not eligible for shelter, food, or health care (unless they are dying). This girl was 7 when her parents brought her here. She has obviously worked hard since she has a 4.3 GPA and she would also obviously be an asset to our society. A real progressive would recognize that she is a gifted human being and educating her in a university would benefit all of us.

[acmavm]

19. How dare you call me ignorant. If it was up to people like the only persons

with any rights in this country would be the ones who managed to sneak their way into the country. Your fake and phony 'humanity' makes you feel good because you can tell everybody how you champion the poor down-trodden illegals. Apparently you think everyone is impressed by this whiney crap and will tolerate being called ignorant. I've seen you taken to task many times for your overblown sense of your own humanity when it comes to this subject. And I've had a good laugh every damn single time.

People have patiently tried to explain to you, time and time again, that the economic conditions in this country are such that we cannot afford to keep taking in everybody with the skills to sneak into the country. They are a drain on the job market and they drive down wages. Now Mexican truckers are going to come into the country and take over jobs that up until now belonged to Americans.

It is so easy for people to stand on a soap box and preach. Especially when it costs them nothing and makes them feel justifed when they spend so much time patting themselves on the back.

[coco77]

147. Thank You! Thank You! Thank you!

:hi: :popcorn: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[EFerrari]

121. It's logical consequence. If the United States continues to disrupt

democratic governments in Latin America, people will continue to flee the mess.

[LanternWaste]

124. You're darn right!

You're darn right! Those imaginary red and blue dividers on maps are so much more important than people! :sarcasm:

[Megahurtz]

131. And I DO Agree. n/t

[coco77]

143. Thank you!

I am agreeing with all of your posts.

[Matariki]

110. You say "your country". Where are you from?

And more importantly does your country have universal health coverage and if so, can I come there for some free dental work?

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. You and your kids are not eligible for in state tuition?

Wow, what state do you live in?

[acmavm]

12. Do you have any idea what tuition is to the University of Nebraska at

Omaha now? In-state or out-state?

And two of my girls live in Colorado with their dad. Do you know what tuition in-state or out-state is at the University of Colorado - Denver?

Please. If you have to pay your own tuition going to any first rate (or even community college anymore) college is almost out of your league if you don't have people willing to help with the tuition.


College tuition is almost a scam anymore. It prevents thousands of people, kids and people like me who need to go back to school, from being able to enroll.

Did you pay your tuition? Did you have help? Did your parents pay your way through college? Well, I didn't have that luxury and obviously I couldn't pay for my kids to go either. I did go back and get a two-year associate's as a Paralegal. And I owe buckets of money for it too. AND I want to get my bachelor's but I can't get the aid I need.

So forgive me if I don't feel like I owe anyone here in this country illegally an education. Because my kids, my friend Molly, me, we all would like to have the same thing. And it's not likely to happen anytime soon.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. If your kids had 4.3 GPAs, they would be eligible for scholarships too

And they are currently eligible for in state tuition in the states where they live. They aren't getting screwed because a very bright girl in another state is eligible for a scholarship. Your outrage is misguided and downright ignorant.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. Better them than you.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Think about it.

The kid in the OP earned a free college education.

All you did is get squeezed out here and then squander away a lifetime of opportunity that people like those in the OP struggle for.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. You described it in post #2.

Plus, I'm judging you based upon the content of your character.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. I'm the one without character?

Hey, I'm not the one who's a sucker for race-baiting.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Gee I wonder where the scholarship would be more wisely spent?

:eyes:

[acmavm]

46. On poor black kids from New Orleans. On the overlooked and forgotten

kids on the Indian Resevatsion. Pretty much anywhere you look in this country, that's where.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. You're a poor black kid from an Indian Reservation?

[Megahurtz]

138. How About Poor White Kids Too.

Color has nothing to do with this.
Don't worry, I agree with your posts but I'm just pointing out an important issue.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

141. White kids are already allowed to apply for financial aid.

:shrug:

[Megahurtz]

151. I'm Just Looking At

the big picture. People are bringing up Race, and I'm saying Poverty runs across all Racial lines. And as far as applying for Financial Aid, that money should be going towards taking care of legal Americans first, with other Social Programs, Healthcare etc.

The Country should make sure it's own are fully taken care of in every way first and formost. They want to help illegals while Citizens are suffering without and that's wrong. That's all my point really is.

AND those that are doing without are expected to pay for the care of illegals by paying taxes,
and that is really wrong.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

152. Of course people are bringing up race.

It's just plain old fashioned racism.

There's no good reason not to give this kid a college education.

[Megahurtz]

154. I Don't Think It's About Race.

If she were White as snow illegally from Iceland or somewhere, I would feel the exact same way, and I'm sure others would too.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

156. You think this kid shouldn't be given a college education.

Shows what you know.

[Megahurtz]

160. I Know Plenty.

I live in California doing without and and I pay taxes and get nothing in return. This student and her Parents do not pay taxes here. Why should I and other Californians pay for her College when we need other services that we're not getting? :wtf:

She is not a legal Citizen, period, and should not get assistance from the State.

"Shows what I know"???

Where do you live, does this affect you? Yeah, I thought so. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

162. Maybe you should have tried harder in school.

Or maybe not. You don't strike me as college material.

[Megahurtz]

165. "You don't strike me as college material."

Niiice. :eyes: Do you really actually believe that was a very intelligent comment?
It sounds like you think you're really intelligent, moreso than me.
Do you really know anything about me? :think:
Maybe if you could come down off of your Pedestal, we could really talk.

:eyes:

Yes, the Scholarship or Grant should be given to a legal Citizen first, no matter what kind of grades they get.

I nor any other American Citizen should have to compete with an illegal for a College Grant, Scholarship, or whatever you want to call it. It should be given to a legal Citizen first, or should be put towards another Social Program for a legal Citizen first.

[proud2BlibKansan]

166. Do you have a 4.3 GPA?

If not, you aren't competing with this girl.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. What's your excuse...

for being in this country all these years and not having got a college education already?

Frankly, I'd rather give the kid in the OP the loan.

[Cobalt Violet]

66. But they need degrees to do the jobs Americans won't do.

:eyes:

[treestar]

72. Sure, there's a shortage of RNs

Aliens with RNs can get green cards - up to a quota point.

If Americans don't want to be nurses, then they don't have to. We can't force any American to go to nursing school, so if it's not the career of choice of enough Americans, what's wrong with people coming who can do that job?

The patients in hospitals sure aren't going to care.

[Richard Steele]

201. What a load of racist nonsense. That "illegals get special treatment" crap again?

Did you even READ the story? Or did you just start IMAGINING
your little fiction about illegals getting things "you can't get"? :eyes:

[Odin2005]

3. Shouldn't we be working on making sure CITIZENS and LEGAL RESIDENTS can afford college FIRST?

Oh, wait, that wouldn't be politically correct and might piss of the pushers of identity politics. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Which citizens with a 4.3 GPA can't get scholarship money?

[acmavm]

14. Maybe she should apply at a college in the country of which she is a

citizen.

But actually this argument isn't necessarily with her. But if she was so damn worried about her immigration status, maybe she or her parents should have stepped up to the plate and tried to fix the situation. Being sneaky for a number of years and hiding one's illegal status is not much of a character reference in my book. Or is that just being a bit to logical? Or is honesty just for poor schmucks who are born here are expected to obey every law from jay-walking prohibitions to not soliciting for sex in public restrooms?

It's her advocating that illegals should be given a 'free boat' that really pisses me off. So we need to foot the bills to educate anyone who happens not to be an idiot but just might be here illegally? Unless they're here legally the only 'boat' they need to see is the one back to where ever they belong.

Some cluck posted a while ago that she's just as American as I am. No, I have my citizenship. I was born here. Her family snuck in.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. She came here when she was SEVEN YEARS OLD

She is not getting a "free boat" (what a lovely expression, BTW). She earned it by working hard and getting straight As. And unless you live in her state, you aren't paying for her scholarship.

[acmavm]

22. Try to stay with the program here. The issue is advocating scholarships

for ILLEGAL ALIENS.

Now start over and see if you can keep up.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. The issue is denying a scholarship to a girl with a 4.3 GPA

who was educated in an American high school and was brought here by her parents when she was SEVEN YEARS OLD.

And since I do work hard and have 3 college degrees, I have no problem keeping up. :)

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Uh, what?

"I don't care when she came here."

Apparently you do, because if she'd come here seven years earlier, you wouldn't have a problem with her going to school. Assuming it's really the legal status that's the issue.

[The Straight Story]

37. I'll jump in here I guess (since I did post the OP...)

I can understand your feelings on this and the anger. It is hard to stomach living your whole life obeying the rules and then have folks who don't swoop in and garner benefits you have difficulties getting.

The desire, as a fellow human, is to see all our kids get an education beyond high school (if they want, or even go to trade school instead of college).

As a progressive, I want that. As a parent and someone born here I feel my kids are more entitled if funds are limited.

However - since we allowed that child to go to our schools and graduate that to me says we now have some responsibility to ensure that the child is able to make the most of that education if they choose to advance; as we have already invested our money into that person there is no reason to quash it now and potentially lose a talented person who might help cure a disease, invent new things, etc.

It is an investment in our own future, and the more they earn the more taxes we will get back to help out funding Social Security and such for the rest of us.

The SOLUTION is to make colleges like regular school - paid for by our taxes and anyone can go for free.

And I would go one step further ---> If you graduate and get a job, we tax you more for each year you were in school and that money goes back into the fund for education (a way to pay back to the system).

Is it "right" that kids of illegals can take money from the system we have paid into and use it when we ourselves may not be able to tap into it? No. But it is also not right for the children to pay for the sins of their parents - if a kid earns a scholarship, they should get it - and since the law does not allow that, then the only other solution here is to free up other funds.

[Ohio Joe]

123. Excellent Idea

Plain simple common sense... I like it. :thumbsup:

[treestar]

73. They probably tried - the laws are restrictrive - undocumented

immigrants are always undocumented because they don't fit into any of the limited categories. They generally want to fix it, just that there is no way to do it.

[Sanctified]

38. Is a 4.3 good? I got a 3.7 on a 4.0 scale and was never offered a full ride. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. I had a 3.8 and got a grant

Maybe it varies from state to state?

[Posteritatis]

50. 4.3 = A+ in some schools, while others just cap at 4.0. (nt)

[alarimer]

62. Yes, it's better than straight A's

Most classes give 4 points for an A. Advanced placement classes give 5 points for an A; that accounts for the GPA over 4.0. I had something like a 4.1 in high school for that reason. My college, Troy State University, offered me a full ride but only after I asked for it. I never even had to apply for a scholarship; they just offered it to me. But that was 20 years ago; I am not sure if the situation has changed or not.

My guess is that applying to smaller, lesser known schools will result in better scholarship offers for anyone with a decent GPA. I guess a 3.7 would get at least 50%, if not more.

[Sanctified]

63. I was thinking her school was on a 5.0 rating scale.

[kath]

70. I was a frickin' National Merit Scholar and didn't get a free ride. Had to work a Work-Study job.

[Piltdown13]

170. Me too!

Though I did get offered a scholarship for tuition and fees from the school I ended up attending (but I still graduated with fairly substantial debt, because the scholarship didn't cover room and board -- this despite the fact that recipients were required to live on-campus, which was very pricey). Of course, I started college in 1993, before the big explosion in merit-based aid really got underway.

[Cobalt Violet]

67. Plenty.

You aren't serious are you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. Nice link!

:)

[Cobalt Violet]

117. There is no link for you to the America in which I live.

You must be pretty sheltered.

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. No I am not sheltered;

I just find it hard to believe than a kid with a 4.3 GPA has a hard time finding scholarship money.

[AZBlue]

82. LOADS!

And even if they get something, it will only cover part of their tuition or only tuition and not incidentals and living expenses.

[Evoman]

102. Yeah, BUT SHE GOT THEM.

She is BETTER than the rest of you 4.0ers. Be it because she has good leadership skills, extracurricular activites, and the like, she has received a massive amount of scholarships. Jesus, I can't believe people are even questioning this...she not only deserves that money, your country would be FUCKING STUPID to want to get rid of her.

[Evoman]

107. In fact, I think I want to petition the Canadian goverment to bring people like her here.

You'll be rid of all your most intelligent illegal aliens, and we can gain intelligent, educated citizens.

Both our countries win.

[MissB]

118. Oh, many citizens of our country are not just FUCKING STUPID

but they are FUCKING RACIST as well. Many of them would love to see this young woman kicked out the country, despite the fact that it wasn't her fucking fault that her parents brought her here when she was seven years old. Like many first-generation immigrants (legal or not), her parents probably pounded it in her head that she had to succeed.

She gets a 4.3 and $30k in scholarships and is probably freaking brilliant. Since we have such an excess of brilliant young minds in our country, we really should deport her pronto.

The combination of stupidity and racism should destroy what is left of our country before I'm old and decrepit.

[knight_of_the_star]

184. Multiple ad hominems and red herrings

And by the way, claiming that people who have issues with not only people breaking the law but want money, time, and effort focused on people who immigrated here legally or are genuine citizens of this country are a bunch of stupid racists is as low as it gets.

Go ahead and try to do what she's doing across the border in Mexico.

[Blue Belle]

177. How long has it been since you applied for a college scholarship?

A lot of kids with 4.3 GPAs are barely scraping together the funds to go to college. SERIOUSLY. Due to the cuts to Pell Grants and the underfunding of colleges (hence the tuition increase) the competition for scholarships has been raised exponentially.

[treestar]

71. Anybody who is smart will be an asset

And will have ideas and will do things that will create jobs for Americans.

Reality is, we need whoever is most intelligent. What's wrong with stealing other countries' cream? We have done it for two hundred years and became the richest nation on the planet.

Nativism really doesn't serve the natives. We ought to make legal residents of anyone that smart. That's the weakness of the immigration laws. They have quotas for motivated, smart people, as if we want to limit the number we have!

[Megahurtz]

140. LOL!

A logical fucking post comes through! :applause:

The answer is so simple!

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Well here in Kansas she would get instate tuition

We have a policy here that kids like this can go to state universities at in state rates as long as their parents are employed in the state and pay taxes, the kids graduated from a Kansas high school and they have applied for citizenship. And the anti-immigration folks have fought to have this law repealed since it was enacted. A group of parents from out of state filed a lawsuit (and lost). Now why should kids whose families have contributed nothing to the state economy get a break on tuition? A judge agreed and threw out their lawsuit.

[BlooInBloo]

68. It's funny because it's always white folks who are screaming for merit-based awards.

[treestar]

69. What better proof could there be of the stupidity of our immigration laws

than that this girl does not qualify for a green card? If she's that smart, give her legal status! Are we such morans? How do you get a 4.3 average anyway, isn't 4.0 perfect?

[Dr. Strange]

77. One possible problem there...

If she's that smart, give her legal status! Are we such morans?

What if she wasn't that smart? What if her GPA was only, say, 2.5? Would you still want to give her legal status? Shouldn't the law apply equally to everyone?

How do you get a 4.3 average anyway, isn't 4.0 perfect?

It may be the same situation that our high school had: honors classes count one point more (so an A counts as five points rather than four, etc).

[judaspriestess]

75. the moral of the story

WE NEED AFFORDABLE EDUCATION FOR ALL!! This country is being so dumbed down, anyone and everyone should be allowed to further their education. It would only make us BETTER.

[Mr. Blonde]

76. I have a hard time with this one

"No student here would be bumped as a result of this new program," said Cedillo.

OK, but if it were not going to just illegal aliens couldn't it be put toward legal residents of California?

It sucks that this girl is being punished for her parents breaking the law, but at the same time why should she be rewarded for the sins of her parents?

I'm curious what country she is from. I'm sure they would benefit as much if not more from her contributions to society as the US.

[noamnety]

78. Would you like to comment on post 64?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1698738#1701801

[EFerrari]

104. She's not being rewarded for anyone's sins but for working

her @ss off.

[Evoman]

109. Thats what people here are not understanding.

Kids like her a resource. Hard working and smart. You would be CRAZY to want to get rid of her. Nobody GAVE her anything. She worked for it, and then she was refused it.

[EFerrari]

115. Somewhere, a recruiter is tearing her hair out in handfulls. n/t

[LeftyMom]

85. speaking as a California taxpayer and student, I'd be glad to see her in the next desk over

and I'm not worried about the potential of competing for a limited financial aid pool- I want to get what I get because I deserve it, not because somebody more deserving was excluded.

BTW, it always amuses me that the angriest comments on threads about California immigration laws (such as the ones a few years back about driver's licenses) come from those who live elsewhere and for all I know have never set foot in the golden state.

[provis99]

87. I'm Canadian. I demand you Yankees pay for my education

I lived in the States 10 years, and had a 4.0 grade point average in graduate school. In the spirit of giving illegal immigrants free education, I now demand that you all reimburse me for getting educated in the United States, which you will pay me immediately upon my illegal entry back into the US.

Sounds stupid? Well, how is the situation any different than the one this illegal immigrant is claiming for?

On the other hand, maybe I'll show up in Britain illegally and demand that they educate me for free at Oxford. After all, I really do have a 4.0 GPA, so I'm entitled to it, aren't I?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

89. "How is the situation any different" Really? You see no difference?

How about the fact that she didn't choose to enter illegally into the United States? How about the fact that she was brought here as a child, has lived here her entire school age life and is for all intents and purposes AMERICAN? You chose to come here! You chose to study here! You see no difference? Wow. Amazing.

[provis99]

91. No. I see no difference.

Why should I be considered any less American than she is? Because she's a latino immigrant and I'm white? That seems to be the underlying current of much of the discussion on this topic. Well, I've lived in the US just as long as she is; so why would she be considered "American" but not me? I got good marks too, so why does she get free education but not me? Your argument is that I'm here legally, so I DON'T get free education, but she's here illegally, so she DOES? What, the US punishes those of us who try to immigrate legally (I've been on the green card list for 12 years, despite having 1st preference listing) but she immigrates illegally, refuses to leave, and expects free education, and you support her over me?

You say she can't go back to her native land because she's illegally in the US, but I should because I'm legally in the US?

Sorry, your position is hypocritical, inexcusable, and indefensible, and subtly latino-centric, as well.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

92. Did you even read my post?

Because it sure doesn't sound like it. I said that she was brought here as a child. She did not choose to come here illegally. Somehow you got "people who are here illegally deserve free education" That's pretty stunning.

Then, I never even said this:

"You say she can't go back to her native land because she's illegally in the US, but I should because I'm legally in the US?"

But now that you bring it up...
She left her "native land" when she was seven! Not of her own free will, but because her parents brought her. So she should go back to some country she probably doesn't even remember that well?


Let me put it to you another way...

If *your* parents dragged you into the U.S. when you were a small child and you grew up with American values, American culture, American education etc. (American is all you've ever known), I would expect that any scholarship you earned be granted to you. I would also think it inappropriate to expect you to "go back home!" when really this country is the only home you have known in your formative years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. Some of the responses in this thread make me want to puke

[EFerrari]

105. . . .

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. Do you have a 4.3 GPA?

[Megahurtz]

161. Good Post I Agree! n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. That's not the same thing

This girl was educated in California schools and is being offered scholarship money by schools in California. If you had gone to high school in Britain and earned scholarship money to a British university, then it would be the same thing.

[OzarkDem]

95. No

Giving benefits to illegal aliens is not financially sustainable in the long term.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. Why not?

This kid will graduate, get a good job, and end up paying far more taxes than she ever recieved.

[OzarkDem]

164. She won't be an exception

Its very unlikely a rule or law could be chaged just for one individual. A new interpretation of these regulations would open up scholarships to all other illegal aliens - something that the US could not afford nor sustain for very long.

Perhaps she can go back to Mexico, or the Mexican government can provide her with a scholarship to attend the US school.
We need to stop thinking of Mexico as a poor country, it isn't. Its government just needs reform.

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. Why should she go back to Mexico?

She isn't FROM Mexico. :eyes:

[Selatius]

108. I want to give illegal aliens 25,000 dollars in student loan debt with 7 percent interest on top

This is what they're arguing for.

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. A scholarship is not the same as a loan.

[ecstatic]

159. Even if given a loan, they won't be required to pay it back

No papers = No credit = No obligation to pay back any loans, even Federal loans

That's not fair, by the way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. She isn't being offered a loan

[EFerrari]

127. It's always something. My family came here legally

and was broken up for a number of years before everyone got their paperwork in order.

And while no one could scream "crime" at us, I remember my uncle hosing off the racist graffiti some real American had put all over our house. One of my favorite teachers kept asking me if I was sure I wasn't Italian, lol. My mother's desk at work was regularly tossed and I heard one of her clients ask her if her people were out of the trees yet.

My brother in law used to refer to my as "our little linguist" as if being bilingual deterred me in any way from understanding sarcastic racist bullshit. He stopped when I began earning more than he did as a pilot by translating for the Feds. (The big jerk, may he rest in peace. :) )

The Republicans have stirred up so much xenophobia, it's going to take us years, maybe decades to recover. I'm not claiming, for the record, that people on this thread that object to undocumented kids getting scholarships are xenophobes. Rather, our thinking as a culture, as a society, has become infused with this cR@p! that Republicans use to get elected. It seems airborne at times, and that's a shame.

[Progressive_In_NC]

146. What are entitlement grants?

According to The California Student Aid Commission, nearly 266,000 awards were handed out this year at an estimated cost of nearly $810 million. Eighty-nine percent of them are entitlement awards, only 11 percent are competitive. Tom Mays from Cal Grants said the commission has not taken a position yet on the proposal.


What is the basis for entitlement? Income, Race, Sex, area of origination?

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. Sounds like achievement

from the article in the OP.

[Cobalt Violet]

175. Entitlements aren't limited to a certain number of awarded grants yearly

Competitive grants are limited to so many awarded per year.


Both are awarded according to income and levels of achievment.

[lonestarnot]

148. As well it should. Should have been debated long ago.

[Roxy66]

200. Maybe I should get a fake I.D. that shows I'm illegal...so can get some aid

I am a single mom...and can't get a penny of assistance.

[EFerrari]

206. You'd also have to do the work to get 4.3 GPA.. n/t

[leaninglib]

202. Undocumented means ILLEGAL.

And we are supposed to be a nation of laws. Therefore, it is impossible to logically argue that an illegal alien should be granted financial aid.

[EFerrari]

207. You mean, like the Fugitive Slave Law? n/t

[leaninglib]

211. No, your analogy unsound, for Susan is free to leave MY country

and return to HER country at anytime.

[EFerrari]

215. Then you don't understand either your premise or my analogy. n/t

[leaninglib]

217. I understand your attempt at being analogous as being flawed.

For your line of reasoning suggests that laws shielding people from being obligated to pay for the education of someone who broke into their country--are analogous to laws that allowed people to enslave other people.

(Actually, a more accurate analogy relates to the fact that you are advocating the enslavement of Americans to pay for the education of people from other countries)

[proud2BlibKansan]

210. The undocumented kids in Kansas get it

and the racist anti-immigration folks fought this policy in court and lost. So it can not only be logically argued, it is legal. :)

BTW, nice screen name! It suits your views so well!! :sarcasm:

[leaninglib]

212. No, it is not legal. Some states circumvent the law by only requiring proof of state residency

and not US citizenship. Moreover, there are many illogical thinkers in places of power who do not know the difference between black and white. e.g. (www.whitehouse.gov)

It is only a matter of time before the America get tired of paying the bills of ILLEGAL aliens who are gaming our system and straighten this mess out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

213. It is a LAW in Kansas

The LAW was challenged in court by the anti-immigration folks and they LOST. BTW, their lawyer was that same FAIR bigwig who defended Hazelton, PA and LOST.

Gee I think that means it is LEGAL.

[leaninglib]

218. Actually, I do not have a problem if The People of Kansas

choose to exacerbate their problems in the areas of education, health care, crime, etc. I do not think it is a logical choice; nevertheless, it is their choice. And State's Rights are a fundamental element in the realm of federalism.

However, The majority of the People of My State have decided to utilize OUR resources in a manner that does the most to help OUR people as opposed to help the rest of the WORLD.

(You are making a good argument for ending federal funding of higher education)

:shrug:

[judaspriestess]

216. before the "America" get tired?

wow

[leaninglib]

219. Wow...!!! You be sooooooo------uvinile...

:boring:

[Nikia]

214. It is unfortunate, but I don't know if it would be a good idea to change the law

As others have stated, there are many good American students who are not getting enough financial aid due to limited resources. American colleges are often considered to be good, especially in the minds of people from developing countries. I went to college with a number of international students, none of who were eligible for American financial aid. Their families either made for them or they recieved aid from other organizations.
As much as I believe that the American government should help people, I think the college financing of non American citizens should be left to private organizations. I encourage that all of those who are concerned about this problem, start such an organization or give to one which might exist or give directly to affected students like Susan.