So what do you think the cop who arrested Sen. Craig was *doing* during those two minutes anyway?

[Matariki]

Probably not acting like a person who justs wants their privacy while someone is peeping into the stall.

[havocmom]

1. His job

[Matariki]

7. It's beginning to sound like his job was 'entrapment'

[Fresh_Start]

10. Look up the definition of entrapment

sitting on a toilet in a restroom is not entrapment

[Matariki]

22. It's a legitimate question.

If the place was a known pick up spot - and btw, cruising is NOT illegal - and the cop was returning signals to Sen. Craig then it sounds like entrapment.

Depending on what the cop was doing during those two minutes, which is a LONG time to allow someone to stare out you without complaint, would certainly change the nature of the arrest, IMO.

I get the feeling if the Senator was a Democrat the arguments here would be a lot different.

[goodhue]

31. Cruising is illegal if it violates Minn. Stat. Sec. 609.72, subd. 1(3) & Sec. 609.746, subd. 1(c).

n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

85. Do You Know What Entrapment Is?

It's a legitimate question. Do you?

Cause if you did, you'd realize there was no entrapment here whatsoever. If you still want to lay claim that there was, then I wholeheartedly encourage you to do further research into what entrapment is. In fact, please research the term until such a point comes that you can stand up and say "ohhhhhh, ok, it ISN'T entrapment!", because until such a point occurs it would be an indication that you still weren't truly aware as to what entrapment is.

[Matariki]

95. No I don't actually.

Not in the legal sense. Despite what assumptions are being made, I'm not defending Senator Craig. I don't understand the whole stinking thing in terms of legality.

Some good points have been made on this thread in defense of a sting operation to stop the bathroom from being used for public sex. That is understandable. I wasn't thinking of Craig's arrest in a larger context and so I found some of the details confusing as to why they'd be cause for arrest.

[goodhue]

15. absolutely not entrapment!

Entrapment is when the police induce an otherwise unwilling person to commit a crime.

The MSP police sting that led to the arrest of 41 people in bathroom was not entrapment because those arrested were not induced to do something that they would otherwise have been unwilling to do.

[havocmom]

29. Should attractive cops be required to wear burkas so others won't violate the law?

entrapment my ass

[JuniperLea]

171. Bingo!

You nailed it.

[kestrel91316]

55. Cops are well-trained in how to avoid entrapment, because entrapment

is pretty much a guarantee a case will be thrown out. This was a STING operation.

Afraid you'll get caught by the same sort of "sting"???? 'Cause that's the only reason I can think that anyone would object to this.......

Soliciting sex in a public restroom is not acceptable behavior. That's why 99.99999999% of people think it should be a crime.

[Matariki]

63. Oh for fuck's sake

I asked a question. Apparently a 'forbidden' question. Jumping from that to accusing me of being "Afraid you'll get caught by the same sort of "sting"???? " is irrational. Jumping to the conclusion that I advocate soliciting sex in public restrooms is equally absurd.

[youthere]

86. It was not entrapment.

ENTRAPMENT - A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.

more: http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e024.htm

[mondo joe]

132. If Craig wasn't peering at him in the stall, he wouldn't know what the

cop was doing at all, would he?

[ButterflyBlood]

183. That's not entrapment

If he pulled out a gun on someone and threatened him unless he agreed to have sex, that'd be entrapment. Look up the definition.

[H2O Man]

98. Yep.

He was doing his job.

[King Coal]

141. That is right, H2O man. And he has a crappy job, but he does it well.

But there are some people here who are just looking to fight, even if what you say will suit them better than what they say. It is pretty disgusting.

[H2O Man]

154. Many people

are overlooking some of the most glaring points in the case. Let's consider just one example. The senator was charged with certain crimes, and made a guilty plea months later to a reduced charge.

He says he didn't consult an attorney. Of course, a US Senator would not lie.

But think about this: if you ever get even a couple of traffick tickets, how do you get them reduced? Not by simply talking to the cop who ticketed you. And not by walking into court, and telling the judge that you have given this much thought, and determined that you will make a plea to a reduced charge. Nope -- that isn't real. You have to talk to the DA, who then informs the judge.

So, in the weeks between his arrest, we know he went to the police at least once for information on the status of the case.

A general knowledge of the workings of the legal system should make this apparent.

[StarryNite]

168. Exactly!

[goodhue]

2. obviously

Presumably he met and held Craig's gaze with sustained eye contact.

[lpbk2713]

3. Gathering evidence.

Making sure he has a case.

[renie408]

4. Huh? How do you act when you don't want privacy and you are in a bathroom stall?

I am not clear on this, could you elucidate?

[goodhue]

11. not using stall for its intended purpose; return eye contact of peeper

cruising 101

[renie408]

16. "not using the stall for it's intended purpose"...how did Craig know that without looking?

Give it up. Sitting in a bathroom stall, minding your own business and returning somebody's look is not entrapment. He didn't blow Craig kisses or wink or grab his crotch. He was just in there. You can whine and cry all you want, Craig was out of line.

[goodhue]

21. But, sir, I agree totally that Craig was out of line

And that the police officer behaved commendably.
Sorry I tried to accurately answer your question.
Perhaps you confuse me with the OP?

[renie408]

28. Sorry...misunderstood the intent behind your response.

I jumped to thinking you were following the idea that by not confronting Craig, the officer was somehow guilty of entrapment.

[Matariki]

45. How do you know what he did during those two minutes?

That's my question. That's a long time. Did he pretend he didn't see? Did he return eye contact? Did he say anything? Did he give signals he knew had particular meaning?

I'm not saying he did or did not. I'm just wondering. I was reading another thread and people keep repeating that Craig was staring a full two minutes and it just occurred to me to wonder what the cop was doing in such a long period of time. AND I'm wondering why no on else has asked that question. I suspect political party plays a great deal into the assumptions of guilt or innocence, which in my opinion is not justice.

[goodhue]

72. I'm presuming

In his report Officer Karsnia states:
"I could see Craig look through the crack in the door from his position. Craig would look down at his hands, "fidget" with his fingers, and then look through the crack into my stall again. Craig would repeat this cycle for about two minutes. I was able to see Craig's blue eyes as he looked into my stall."

[KansDem]

80. I'm wondering: is fidgeting with one's fingers a signal of some kind?

I only ask because this phrase seems to be getting as much attention as the "peeking," "tapping," and "swiping..."

Oh, and while we're on the topic, what does "swiping" mean?

[goodhue]

82. almost certainly it is

I guessing he was indicating his interest in giving the officer a hand job, or vice versa.

[youthere]

91. I was thinking it was more of a "come here"gesture.

[Matariki]

12. Ask the person what their problem is?

Tell the person to get the fuck away or I'll call the cops? Say something anyway. Certainly not sit there for two minutes like a damn sheep or make goo-goo eyes back at the person.

[WinkyDink]

19. "Goo-goo eyes"? Where'd you come up with that one?? (Let me guess.....)

[renie408]

24. So if you don't confront someone staring at you while you are

in the bathroom, you are leading them on?

You are reaching. Existing in a space is not entrapment.

[Matariki]

53. What would you do if someone was staring at you for 15, 30 seconds?

I'm not saying you'd be leading the person on - but be honest - that's a long time. Two minutes would be an eternity. Can you honestly say you wouldn't say ANYTHING?

[TahitiNut]

61. I'd finish my 'business' and then go find a cop and make a complaint.

If I confronted the person, I'd be making a mistake. It's just like any Peeping Tom (Dick, or Larry), I'd call the police.

IMHO, anyone trying to rationalize or apologize the behavior of a peeper should try to make a parallel argument that a woman should dismiss/forgive such behavior if discovered in a tanning booth or rest room (with a peep hole).

That Craig didn't stop at peeping and escalated his behavior ... how about if a Peeping Tom did the same with a woman?

Again ... just as Craig's sexual orientation or other motivation is irrelevant in assessing guilt, there should be no "free pass" either. The behavior is justifiable a misdemeanor - no matter what.

IMHO

[Matariki]

67. Seriously, you'd 'finish your business' and not say a word? In a public restroom?

I find that surprising.

[TahitiNut]

71. Really? (I think that's strange.) Would YOU confront a peeper in a tanning booth?

Would YOU confront a peeper outside your bedroom window? If you say you would, it'd be my opinion that such a choice is foolish and dangerous.

YMMV, of course. :shrug:

[Matariki]

77. In a public space, in an airport, yes. Absolutely.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oilwellian]

115. What would I do?

I would file a complaint. And obviously many did which is why the sting was set up in the first place. Geesh, your argument is moot.

[lumberjack_jeff]

148. What would I do if I were the public, or what would I do if I were hired to protect the public? n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

147. Uh, he WAS "the cops", and it was a sting operation.

He'd have been doing a shitty job of it if he tells the perps to go away and annoy someone who lacks the authority to arrest him for it.

This is one of the more ludicrous things I've ever read here.

[havocmom]

180. '...get the fuck away or I'll call the cops'

which would be why the police staked out the restroom to conduct a sting. They knew this sort of thing was going on, people must have complained to the cops, like you just said you would have done

So, like I said, to your opening question about what was the cop doing in the stall....

The cop was in the stall, doing HIS JOB

[acmavm]

5. Jeeze, the guy got nailed. It was a good bust. You can't change

that fact no matter how hard you try.

Why are you trying so hard anyway?

[hlthe2b]

6. Oh, for God's sake...

:eyes:

As said previously, his job...

[Fresh_Start]

8. Why are you trying to smear the cop?

Do you have ANY facts to support your BS?

[Matariki]

69. Oh no one EVER questions the actions of the police here on DU

:rofl:

[Sequoia]

131. Oh, that's so not true. I've bashed a few cops before and got hell for it.

I know cops in my own town who shoot children and mentally ill adults. This cop did his job, and that Craig was peering at him through the stall crack. That would freak me out big time.

I knew of a boss who'd send his flunkies into the bathroom to peer over the stall at other employees to make sure they weren't reading the newspaper or a book. I knew another who'd send a female employee into a bathroom to look for other female employees to tell them to get back to work. Talk about the Bad Boss Award, he'd win it hands down.

[Beelzebud]

9. Republican Senator Craig thanks you for your passionate defense of his actions.

[EST]

38. There's a point no one is making to the degree that it deserves.

That point is that this was a sting to identify and arrest individuals who had made the airport restroom an even more unpleasant place than it normally is. The public complained to the police or to someone with enough horsepower to get the police squad involved in cleaning up the problem.
This squad arrested forty one other miscreants that particular sting. Larry Craig was just one more unfortunate whose drives out ran his common sense.

Those cops run that particular operation, with variations, I'm sure, all around the area when there is that kind of vice involved and they know the sign language very well.

Craig is just one of forty two "nasty boys" who were rounded up. His price, in the amount of damage he brought on himself, may have been higher than some others, but it's for sure a downer for anyone so caught. Such sweeps regularly pick up people of considerable stature and they are often pilloried in their local press.

Craig is just another republican pervert.

[Matariki]

46. That is a fair explanation.

[renie408]

13. I just figured it out!! There is a full moon tonight! That's why there are so

many posts like this one.

[soothsayer]

143. it was on the 28th

[Fresh_Start]

14. Listen to Craigs tape

"I don't do these things"....

A more innocent response would have been "I don't do THOSE things"

[snooper2]

27. An even more innocent response...

would have been to say I didn't know doing those things meant that...


Funny how people are defending him.....closted bathroom junkies themselves maybe? :)

[WinkyDink]

17. What is your answer?

[Matariki]

37. I don't have an answer. It's a question that occured to me.

Two minutes is a long time to let someone stare at you without saying anything.

Also, I can't help but wonder if he was a Democrat if the conversation around here wouldn't be different.

[Laughing Mirror]

18. We'll never know unless we see a video or get more info

All we know from Sgt Karsnia's report is that Karsnia did move his own foot in response to Craig's tapping. Is that enticement? It could be. And yes, of course the whole set up was entrapment, as it was meant to be.

[WinkyDink]

23. Entrapment is a legal term. Are you calling the policeman a criminal?

[Laughing Mirror]

26. We gay people call it entrapment

What do you call it?

[Beelzebud]

30. Are you saying a public bathroom is an average hook up place for gay people?

Is this really the road you want to travel down?

[Laughing Mirror]

34. Some public restrooms have reputations for being cruisey, yes

And the ones that are crusing and sometimes caught in police entrapment operations are often self-described heteros with wife & kids.

What road were you talking about?

[Beelzebud]

39. The road where you argue that public bathroom "cruising" is acceptable.

Un-fucking-believable...

Anonymous sex in public bathrooms probably isn't something a lot of homosexuals want lumped into the gay rights movement...

[Laughing Mirror]

54. That's the road you're on, Buddy, not me

I have never said anything about whether cruising T-rooms is acceptable. I'm interested in knowing what Sgt Karsnia was doing in that stall to keep Senator Craig interested for 10 minutes or more.

The gay rights movement, which I have been part of for 40 years, calls this entrapment. Is police entrapment acceptable?

[Beelzebud]

57. This isn't entrapment... Don't troll bathrooms for anonymous sex and you won't get busted for it...

[Laughing Mirror]

58. If a policemen catches two guys in the act, that's not entrapment

If a policeman entices a guy into the possibility of performing an act, and then arrests him for lewd behavior although the act was not performed, that's called entrapment.

[Beelzebud]

59. Is sitting on the shitter, in a closed stall, enticing?

Interesting perspective...

[Laughing Mirror]

66. Sgt Karsnia says he moved his foot in response to Craig's tapping

So was he just innocently passively sitting there doing nothing being hit on? Or was he in some way egging Craig on with his own body language?

We don't know.

[Beelzebud]

73. So Craig was just reaching under the stall for toilet paper?

The cop was there to catch perverts like Craig, who apparently think it's totally acceptable to troll public bathrooms for anonymous sex.

The cop was there to protect average people, who just want to use the bathroom, from sexual harrassment, and voyerists like Craig that peer inside closed bathroom stalls to choose who they want to hit on.

[Laughing Mirror]

81. Sgt Karsnia says there was no paper there

And all we know is what is in his report and on the tape, and it isn't much in the way of detail. So we can only speculate. We don't know much about what Karsnia was doing exactly other than taking notes.

[youthere]

99. If there had been multiple complaints..

of "lewd behavior" in that restroom (which the article I read said there was), of course the police are going to stake it out and try to put a stop to it. I would agree with your "enticement" argument if the policeman had been the one who first approached the senator...but the senator obviously entered the restroom with the INTENT to commit the crime, and when he peered through the cracks in the stall it was with the INTENT to see if the occupant was interested. When he started tapping it was with the INTENT the occupant of the next stall would reciprocate..and it is only the lack of INTENT that makes entrapment.


ENTRAPMENT - A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity....


http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e024.htm

[Laughing Mirror]

106. Thank you for finding this

We surmise that Craig certainly seemed ready, willing & able but to commit the crime, but what crime? He was charged with what? Disorderly conduct? Lewd behavior? Is this the crime he can be proven to have been ready, willing and able to commit? Or is it some other crime he could be indicted for?

[mondo joe]

114. He was charged with disorderly conduct, and was guilty of it.

Good think not knowing even the basics of the case hasn't stopped you from speaking about it.

:eyes:

[Laughing Mirror]

117. Was his intent to commit disorderly conduct?

Is that "the crime" referred to above that he would have to be proven to commit in order for this to be considered entrapment, legally speaking?

[mondo joe]

118. Unless he had a set of seizures that made his body do those things,

then yes, it was his intent.

How do you peer into a restroom stall for 2 minutes and reach into it without INTENDING to do so?

[Laughing Mirror]

121. His intent was more than likely quick sex

I don't know how you could prove his intent was to commit disorderly conduct.

[mondo joe]

124. His actions constituted disorderly conduct, and he intended to take

those actions. Duh.

[Laughing Mirror]

125. Oh yeah, like "I'm going to commit disorderly conduct with that guy in the stall"

OK.

[mondo joe]

127. Okay, let's get remedial for you: He intended to take certain actions

that constitute disorderly conduct. He intended to peek into the stall. He intended to reach in. He inteded to do things that are by definition disorderly conduct.

[Laughing Mirror]

134. Then is the disorderly conduct he pled guilty to a crime under MN law or a misdemeanor?

If disorderly conduct is not a crime, how could he be guilty of intending to take certain actions that constitute a crime?

[mondo joe]

136. Irrelevant. Whether he intended to commit a crime or misdemeanor,

his intent was to commit the actions.

[goodhue]

149. In MN disorderly conduct is a misdeamenor which is a crime

http://ros.leg.mn/bin/getpub.php?pubtype=STAT_CHAP&year=2006§ion=609#stat.609.02.0

609.02 DEFINITIONS.
Subdivision 1. Crime. "Crime" means conduct which is prohibited by statute and for which
the actor may be sentenced to imprisonment, with or without a fine.
Subd. 2. Felony. "Felony" means a crime for which a sentence of imprisonment for more
than one year may be imposed.
Subd. 2a.
Subd. 3. Misdemeanor. "Misdemeanor" means a crime for which a sentence of not more
than 90 days or a fine of not more than $1,000, or both, may be imposed.
Subd. 4. Gross misdemeanor. "Gross misdemeanor" means any crime which is not a felony
or misdemeanor. The maximum fine which may be imposed for a gross misdemeanor is $3,000.
Subd. 4a. Petty misdemeanor. "Petty misdemeanor" means a petty offense which is
prohibited by statute, which does not constitute a crime and for which a sentence of a fine of not
more than $300 may be imposed.


http://ros.leg.mn/bin/getpub.php?pubtype=STAT_CHAP&year=2006§ion=609#stat.609.72.0
609.72 DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
Subdivision 1. Crime. Whoever does any of the following in a public or private place,
including on a school bus, knowing, or having reasonable grounds to know that it will, or will
tend to, alarm, anger or disturb others or provoke an assault or breach of the peace, is guilty of
disorderly conduct, which is a misdemeanor:
(1) Engages in brawling or fighting; or
(2) Disturbs an assembly or meeting, not unlawful in its character; or
(3) Engages in offensive, obscene, abusive, boisterous, or noisy conduct or in offensive,
obscene, or abusive language tending reasonably to arouse alarm, anger, or resentment in others.
A person does not violate this section if the person's disorderly conduct was caused by
an epileptic seizure.

[Laughing Mirror]

165. OK, good

Thanks.

He paid a $500 fine. Guilty. Case closed.

Or is it...

[renie408]

40. The road that leads to reinforcing a negative stereotype about gay people.

That road. The one you seem to be defiantly storming down in every post you write.

[Laughing Mirror]

56. Or a negative stereotype about straight people

Since Craig says he's straight, right?

[renie408]

35. A) I doubt you speak for all gay people and B) if you do, then gay people need to buy dictionaries.

Existing is not entrapment. You are telling me that if my sixteen year old son goes into a public bathroom and some creepy old dude peeps at him and he doesn't confront him immediately, he is making a defacto offer of sex to said creepy old dude? You know what, not only do I not think you speak for all gay people, just by inferring something like that, I think you diminish all gay people. Cause you know what?? I think you must be below average amongst gays for intelligence, understanding and ethics if this is really what you think.

[Laughing Mirror]

42. Well my IQ is on the low side, so you have a point there

But unless your 16 year old son is working for the cops, the case you present is not an example of police entrapment.

[goodhue]

36. It is called an undercover detail or colloquially a sting

Entrapment is when the police induce an otherwise unwilling person to commit a crime.

The MSP police sting that led to the arrest of 41 people in bathroom was not entrapment because those arrested were not induced to do something that they would otherwise have been unwilling to do.

[Laughing Mirror]

49. A cop used as bait to entrap a guy cruising him is called entrapment

Because it is the cop doing what he would otherwise be unwilling to do, not the guy he entraps.

[goodhue]

50. not legally speaking

but feel free to get the law wrong

[Laughing Mirror]

Is a misdemeanor a crime?

Are you a lawyer or a judge?

[Fresh_Start]

79. Of course a misdemeanor is a crime

by definition

[goodhue]

87. That is actually a good question. In MN misdemeanors are crimes, petty misdemeanors are not

http://ros.leg.mn/bin/getpub.php?pubtype=STAT_CHAP_SEC&year=2006§ion=609.02

609.02 DEFINITIONS.
Subdivision 1. Crime. "Crime" means conduct which is prohibited by statute and for which
the actor may be sentenced to imprisonment, with or without a fine.
Subd. 2. Felony. "Felony" means a crime for which a sentence of imprisonment for more
than one year may be imposed.
Subd. 2a.
Subd. 3. Misdemeanor. "Misdemeanor" means a crime for which a sentence of not more
than 90 days or a fine of not more than $1,000, or both, may be imposed.
Subd. 4. Gross misdemeanor. "Gross misdemeanor" means any crime which is not a felony
or misdemeanor. The maximum fine which may be imposed for a gross misdemeanor is $3,000.
Subd. 4a. Petty misdemeanor. "Petty misdemeanor" means a petty offense which is
prohibited by statute, which does not constitute a crime and for which a sentence of a fine of not
more than $300 may be imposed.

[Beelzebud]

52. Actually no it isn't... Bait?

How did Craig know what he looked like unless he was peeping?

You have the definition of entrapment all fucked up.

If the cop had made an advance at Republican Senator Craig, then it would be entrapment. All the cop was doing was sitting in a stall. The advances were initiated by Republican Senator Craig, after he had checked out everyone in the bathroom and chose who he wanted to hit on.

Bait? Wow....

[Laughing Mirror]

62. How do you know an advance was not made before the stalls were entered?

There might have been a mutual nod outside the rest room, or a knowing glance from one party to the other to continue things further in the relative privacy of a toilet stall. We just don't have enough information to know how Craig honed in on Sgt Karsnia.

Neverthless, a sexy-looking cop sent in to a public restroom to arrest somebody who might or might not be willing to commit a lewd act there is a classic case of entrapment.

[Beelzebud]

64. Now you're just assuming things, and you still have no idea what entrapment is...

[Laughing Mirror]

68. You seem to know everything about the niceties of the law

So you tell me what entrapment is.

[Beelzebud]

70. Do you even read other people's posts. Many have already explained entrapment.

But here it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

From the entry:
"For the defense to be successful, the defendant must demonstrate that the police induced an otherwise unwilling person to commit a crime."

So you're arguing that Craig wasn't in the bathroom for anonymous sex, and that the officer induced him into doing something he wouldn't have done otherwise?

[Laughing Mirror]

75. Craig might have been cruising for sex

But would he have been willing or unwilling to commit a lewd act with the guy in the stall if he knew that the guy in the stall was an undercover cop?

He didn't know the guy was a cop so it was entrapment.

[Beelzebud]

76. LOL Wow... You're twisting into a pretzel here...

That's not entrapment, thats the whole god damn point in having a sting...

Thats like saying the local crack dealer should get off, because had he known the undercover officer was DEA he never would have sold him the drugs.

LOL

[Laughing Mirror]

83. I don't see the similarity between an aborted cruising scenario

And a crack dealer selling a cop drugs.

"Bitch set me up!" Remember that one?

[Beelzebud]

93. I'm sure you don't. You seem very confused about this.

[Laughing Mirror]

100. We are all confused about this until we know exactly what happened

But it looks like a classic case of police entrapment in a public restroom, a cop posing as a likely quarry and then flashing a badge.

[Beelzebud]

101. Again you are clueless about the definition of entrapment...

[Laughing Mirror]

107. Am I?

[Beelzebud]

108. Most definitely.

[H2O Man]

119. Yes.

You are. The legal definition of entrapment allows police to do such things as send undercover officers out, who appear to be prostitutes. They look and act like hookers. They are not engaged in "entrapment." The police officer in question was working in a manner that likewise does not meet the legal standards for entrapment.

[Laughing Mirror]

130. We do not know in what manner the police officer in question was working

Because we only know his side of the story. Not much can be gleaned from Craig's lies, so he's not much help knowing what really happened.

[mondo joe]

133. Did Craig say he was entrapped? Either in the recording or afterward?

So far neither of the people who were there have claimed the cop did ANYTHING to entice Craig.

So why should your imaginings be given any weight?

[Laughing Mirror]

137. That's just it. He hasn't said anything, except to deny everything

So unless he somehow is able to come clean and write his own report of what actually happened (which is unlikely), we'll never know.

In the absence of completely unbiased data, such as a video clip of the stalls, all we can do is imagine plausible scenarios based on what we know. I think, I don't imagine, after all, that this is what this thread, the OP, in particular, is here for.

[mondo joe]

139. To the contrary: he said quite a bit, and it's recorded.

Listen to it. He didn't say the officer did ANYTHING.

The officer confirms it.

Your made-up shit is just fantasy, and is not supported by the accoount of either of the only two witnesses.

[Laughing Mirror]

Who on the recording said; "You shouldn't be out to entrap people either"?

Was it Karsnia or Craig?

[mondo joe]

160. WTF are you talking about?

Craig said he just went into the stall to go to the bathroom.

Where is the entrapment in his version?

Where is it in the officer's version?

[H2O Man]

151. Craig actually did

mention entrapment while talking to the officer. In the context of the conversation, it qualifies as an admission of guilt.

[mondo joe]

161. Ah, "you solicited me". Since he then went on to deny that, I was giving

him the benefit of the doubt.

Of course either way, he's admitting guilt.

[Beausoir]

178. That's exactly what I thought. As soon as I heard Craig mention entrapment, I knew he was guilty.

[H2O Man]

150. Actually, many people do

know very well how the officer was working, and absolutely know the other side of the story. The police reports and the taped discussion provide plenty of information on both. This type of police sting is fairly routine, and the only thing that stands out is that the fellow that was charged was a US Senator.

The taped discussion shows that the US Senator was, though pressured, feeling that he had the ability to come out ahead in a game of chess. His responses are surprisingly consistent with what a trained investigator would expect from a more experienced criminal. For example, he did not deny everything -- rather, he attempted to create a record of doubt on certain specifics: it was his right hand that he used to pick up a sheet of toilet paper, he has a wide stance, the cop shouldn't use entrapment, etc. This showed a familiarity with the tactics that the officer was describing.

The police officer also exhibited the skills of a trained investigator, seeking to respond firmly to every attempt the senator made to deny the truth, and to keep focused on the issues at hand. With the amount of evidence that the officer had, any DA would have convicted the senator, had he taken this to trial. The senator certainly had time to consider his options. The only thing we really don't know is who, if anyone, he actually consulted before making his decision to cop a plea to a lower charge. However, the fact that he was able to go into court and make a plea to the reduced charge is pretty clear evidence that the senator was following a thought-out plan of action.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

155. You Raise A Good Point

Just as there are websites devoted to male on male cruising there are webistes devoted to prostitution and the johns who post on those sites share tips on how to avoid being arrested in a prostitution sting... It all comes down to avoid offering somebody money for sex...


Back to Craig... He knew the drill...


My friend's a criminal defense attorney... He jokes that somebody who has been arrested for an offense "must have done it ten times before"... I suspect the cops subscribe to that axiom too...

[Laughing Mirror]

162. If only Craig could tell the truth and maybe say something like ...

"I was only cruising you, officer, and I thought you seemed to be interested. I made a mistake."

But he can't say that because he's a senator and wants to remain one. Not losing that is his plan of action.

[mondo joe]

164. Now you're accusing all the actual witnesses of lying, and pretending

your fantasy is more accurate than their accounts?

Nice.

[Laughing Mirror]

173. I personally think Craig gave Sgt Karsnia a cover story rather than admit to cruising him

and therefore telling a lie. Sgt Karsnia seems to be telling the truth in his version of the events, but maybe not the complete truth, leaving out what he was doing all that time rather than just observing and moving his foot. And these two holes in the story -- that is what I find interesting to explore, if we're going to waste time exploring this, which we are.

[mondo joe]

174. There are no holes in the story except where it does not conform to your fantasy.

Either way, though, Craig was guilty of breaking the law.

[mondo joe]

102. It is profoundly embarassing to have DU posters speak in such complete

ignorance of what "entrapment" is.

[Laughing Mirror]

109. Why is trying to learn something so embarrassing?

How do you know I haven't been entrapped?

[Beelzebud]

110. From your post about Lafayette park, I'd say you got busted and called it entrapment.

I'd say you're viewing this from a very personal perspective, and one that not even many gay people on DU seem to agree with, or identify with.

[mondo joe]

112. Bingo. Someone has a chip on his shoulder. NT

[Laughing Mirror]

120. No, I've never been arrested for sex in public places

I was about 17 when the Lafayette Park story broke, and learned about police entrapment there from the reports from the gay liberation organizations I was involved with that existed then and then of course from the gay and underground press. I did not have first hand knowledge of police entrapment.

I don't know whether gay people on DU agree with calling entrapment, or not. All I'm saying is that historically we gay people do call just such an incident as Craig's police entrapment.

[mondo joe]

116. Who said YOU haven't been entrapped. I said you don't know what you're

talking about in this case, which is quite evident.

[Laughing Mirror]

138. None of us do because none of us has all the facts

That is quite evident, yes.

[mondo joe]

140. But we do have some facts, and we do have two witnesses, both of whom

disagree with your imagined events.

[youthere]

103. It looks nothing of the sort and you need to do some research.

[Laughing Mirror]

111. Research what?

We are all reading the same police report and hearing the same audio between Craig and Karsnia. That's what I'm drawing my information from. Where are you getting yours?

[mondo joe]

122. Here. Hopefully Wiki won't be beyond your grasp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

Empahsis mine.

In jurisprudence, entrapment is a legal defense by which a defendant may argue that he or she should not be held criminally liable for actions which broke the law, because he/she was induced (or entrapped) by the police to commit those acts. For the defense to be successful, the defendant must demonstrate that the police induced an otherwise unwilling person to commit a crime.

[goodhue]

104. I'm not confused

And it is not entrapment

[Laughing Mirror]

135. How do you know?

Do you have exculpatory information that the rest of us here are not privy to?

[goodhue]

144. exculpatory information?

Craig is the defendant not Sargeant Karsnia.

Do you have any exculpatory information to suggest Craig did not violate Minn. Stat. Sec. 609.72 subd. 1(3)?

I have no need for further information regarding Sargeat Karsnia's conduct. The police report speaks for itself and does not describe entrapment.

[Laughing Mirror]

156. Of course the police report does not describe entrapment

Why would it? That's the job of the defense.

[goodhue]

159. What facts do you have other than the police report?

On which you base your entrapment defense.

[Laughing Mirror]

176. None, just history

[mondo joe]

163. The defense? But Craig says there was no entrapment, so how can he

defend himself by saying he there was?

[Name removed]

92. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kestrel91316]

60. If there is entrapment here, then the cases will get thrown out of court.

The courts are clear on entrapment. That's why cops are well trained in HOW TO AVOID IT.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ButterflyBlood]

184. Errr by that logic a cop dealing drugs while undercover is in entrapment

Typical scenario: An undercover cop infiltrates a drug ring, and while in the process of collecting evidence is involved in the sale of some drugs. This is something he'd otherwise be unwilling to do. So it's entrapment?

[Name removed]

88. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[havocmom]

181. Now all gay people call this entrapment. Many here have said it is appropriate

law enforcement.

One or more have voiced complaints about the cruising activities in public rest rooms. Being gay seems NOT to be a gold standard for being in favor of public rest rooms being used for public sex.

People had complained. Law enforcement was responding to ILLEGAL ACTIVITY in a public place. Nothing about gay in that equation. And not all gays see it as entrapment.

To think gays all see things the same way is another form of bigotry.

[splat]

20. Craig votes for the laws the cop enforced

If he gets caught in his own traps, maybe Craig should have voted for laws that would let him live the way he wants to.

Denying what he does and blaming the media and the cop is cowardly and sleazy.

[goodhue]

25. Technically, the law was passed by the Minnesota Legislature

But your point is well taken

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Respectfully This Is Where You Are Wrong And The Senator Is A Deviant

By peering into occupied restrooms where the person has entered and closed the stall Senator Craig has grossly, grossly trampled upon their rights and invaded their privacy...Before the Senator found somebody he felt was a suitable sexual partner he arrogated to himself the right to evaluate every other man in the restroom who was presumably peeing or pooping in a space he had every right to believe was private.

[Beelzebud]

Exactly.. Why the hell is this so hard for some to grasp?

[Warpy]

33. There he sat, all broken hearted....

Somebody was gonna say it.

[TheCowsCameHome]

41. The cop was helping keeping pervs out of the restrooms.

That's good enough for me.

[Fresh_Start]

43. Entrapment is when the cops solicit the behavior

from the individual....not when the cops respond to being solicited for illegal behavior.

For example, if the cop asks if someone can sell them drugs, the cop is entrapping.
If the cop is in the neighbor and agrees to purchase drugs after the pusher solicits the cop, it is not entrapment.

Craig signalled his intent before the cop did anything - no entrapment.

[pink-o]

44. Oh, f'cryin' out loud...

Larry Craig plead GUILTY!!! GUILTY!!!

You don't do that if you were either curious or you felt that you had been entrapped and were totally innocent. Man plead guilty because he was shit-scared of the publicity. He was scared of the publicity because in his past there are dubious accounts of similiar bathroom liasons.

Mr "I am not gay I have never been gay" hypocrite who voted for every anti-human right legislation the fundies tried to pass gets no sympathy from me. As far as I'm concerned, this is poetic justice. If we don't wanna see cops wasting their time in airport bathrooms, busting people for victimless crimes, it's time for us to change the laws on the books. Until we do that, it's no fair to fault a cop for doing his job.

[Elidor]

47. Another member of the Bathroom Brigade takes up Senator Craig's cause

Poor, persecuted Senator Craig, victim of malicious law enforcement. Why can't people cruise public bathrooms in peace?

:sarcasm:

[Beelzebud]

48. Exactly. This is theater of the absurd...

Sometimes DU makes my head spin...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. He Should Petition The Minnesota Legislature To Change The Statute

They could amend the Constituion to say " there is no reasonable expectation of privacy when you defecate or urinate in a closed restroom stall nor is there a reasonable exoectation of privacy when you change in a dressing room."

[DrunkenMaster]

97. You can have my bathroom blowjob when you pry it

from my cold, dead....nevermind....

[Balbus]

65. Probably dropping baby cops off at the pool.

[Jed Dilligan]

74. LOL

[WI_DEM]

84. Why did Craig plead guilty and pay a fine if he didn't do anything wrong?

that's my answer to this.

[whistle]

89. Taking notes, watching and listening

[xchrom]

94. contemporary times versus history.

historically -- before the laws regarding the legality of gay sex and the appearence of gay bars and other establisments where gay folk can now gather and not be arrested for existing -- places like public parks and bathrooms and other public arenas were areas where men looking for sex with other traditionally met.

cops regularly busted gay folk -- anywhere they could -- anywhere -- so that gay folk were always kept in fear -- but still needing to meet each other.

those are not the times we live in now -- and the craig case makes more a statement about social conservatism and the kind of folk who occupy it.

p.s. -- for those interested enough -- straight men were certainly engaged and interested in sex with other men in those public places.
that's also part of the history of relations between the gay and straight community.
the subtleties of this will be missed by most people.

[DrunkenMaster]

96. How about Doing His F**king JOB??

We have too few cops around to day that actually do their jobs well and properly -- this officer seems to be one of them.

Anonymous sex in bathrooms is sick, ugly, DANGEROUS (have you spared a thought for Craig's family, by the way, and all the terrible diseases they may have been exposed to becasue of his behavior?)AND ILLEGAL.

The cop acted properly.

[beastieboy]

105. Doesn't matter, no amount of flirting is going to get me to solicit gay sex

[mondo joe]

113. Even if it was Brad Pitt flirting????

Just asking since some have decided that apparently we are helpless before the sight of hunky manflesh.

[TorchTheWitch]

123. For god's sake Craig was PEEPING!

Since when is someone in a private place obligated to react a certain way when being peeped upon for it to be legitimate peeping? How did the cop invite being peeped on when he did nothing more than place himself in a private stall in a public toilet just like anyone else? God, this is like blaming the woman for being raped because she sauntered down the street wearing a short skirt!

What is it you don't get about Craig being a Peeping Tom? It doesn't MATTER if the cop was a cop or an average Joe or even if he secretly enjoyed being peeped on, Craig is guilty at the least of being a Peeping Tom!

[TahitiNut]

129. Yep. He was a peeper who ESCALATED his behavior.

Not only did he peep, he physically intruded into the private space of the adjacent stall. If a guy peeped a woman in a tanning booth and then reached in to touch her foot, I doubt we'd be having this discussion. Indeed, any guy (or gal) on DU who even suggested it was OK would be BURIED in posts ... and might be banned.

Bizarre.

[trashcanistanista]

126. Trying to restrain himself from

breaking into Craig's stall and slamming his head into the toilet bowl.

[NashVegas]

128. He Was Trying to Lure a Cruiser

You know, it's funny. Nashville has lots of vice stings and if anything, our cops get criticized for letting things go too far before they pull out the cuffs. On the plus side, ALL of their cases are prosecutable, unlike Craig's would have been, had he contested the charges.

[mitchtv]

145. His presence there was unnecessary

A well attended mens rooom doesn't have these problems,attendents are cheaper than cops too. Put him on burglary detail

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchtv]

158. what's wrong?

an attended room doesn't need a sting. attendants don't cost nearly as much as officers realy simple

[mondo joe]

169. Attendants don't cost as much because it's not their job to do things like

break up sex acts in public restrooms.

[goodhue]

157. This restroom is very central and "well attended" yet is notorious for cruising

Complaints led police to set up sting that resulted in 41 arrests.
There is no burglary detail for airport cops.

Here is some info on this well attended restroom as reported by blog Minnesota Monitor . . .

http://www.minnesotamonitor.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=C05EB8C1328AB66272EC2E723D61E586?diaryId=2309

Karsnia was in the restroom as part of a sting operation to clamp down on lewd behavior. The restroom where Craig was arrested is well known among men who seek sex in public places.

Squirt.org is a site that runs a bulletin board for such men. "If you enter from the terminal, turn left and go past wash basins, urinals to the back where the stalls are. This place is THE most cruisy public place I have been," wrote one poster. "Just passed thru here the other day. This place is so hot. This place has a constant flow and variety of hot guys," wrote another. Even another poster wrote, "This is the best spot for anonymous action I've ever seen." Of all the postings in Minnesota, the airport restroom was ranked the top by that website.

The site, Squirt.org, lists how to get there: "Across from Food Court. Go through security to main Mezzanine where main shopping is located. Look for Starbucks Coffee stand and Men's Room is across from there," what to expect: "Very cruisy, no security cameras or guards. Most of the time, men will show themselves to you at the urinals and invite into stalls or nearby hotels. Plenty of dark stall action, too!Update: No one is permitted beyond the security checkpoints without an airline ticket now," and some of the biggest pet peeves: "Stall hoggers! Get off and get out! Cleaning crews may be overly curious, but won't interfere."

The details of Craig's arrest are not unique. According to a post in June at cruisingforsex.com, another public sex site, "Twenty people were arrested within the past week. Plainclothes officers wait in the stalls and tap their feet and even put their foot on yours and then arrest you when you look under the stall wall."

[mondo joe]

166. AndI don't know which attendents are supposed to break up sex acts.

Their job is to clean the place and restock it.

[dailykoff]

142. his nails.

nt

[breakaleg]

146. He was very likely sitting there waiting for someone to solicit him. And someone did.

[ComerPerro]

152. why are so many people carrying a torch for Sen Craig anyway? Fuck him

he is part of a party that endorses this kind of law enforcement

[dailykoff]

167. Cuz it's a classic chimpco take-down

with the usual chorus boys doing their jobs. And however bad Craig was, his replacement will be worse, and chimpco will get whatever stupid criminal green light Craig apparently wouldn't give them.

[ComerPerro]

175. oh please. You think he was set up by BushCo?

[dailykoff]

177. Yes.

Why, I'm still trying to find out. I imagine it had something to do with military or veterans affairs contracting as he sat on that committee. Something criminal, I have no doubt.

[ButterflyBlood]

182. Or maybe Craig's just a fucking idiot

and not every single thing in the world requires tin foil to explain. Some people are just fucking morons. You can add Craig to that list that also includes Mark Foley.

[Bluebear]

170. 'he is part of a party that endorses this kind of law enforcement'

You said it.

[ecstatic]

172. Making erotic sounds?

Is that what you're getting at? Craig was lured by erotic moaning or such? :shrug:

[bridgit]

179. Doing? I would have thought he'd be *hoping* a transfer out of toilet duty...

was forthcoming soon, very soon :thumbsup: