I've stayed out of the Craig debate because simply, how can I support Gay rights AND

[Horse with no Name]

still call for the resignation of a Gay man? Hypocrite or not?
Let the Republicans do their own dirty work. I don't want any part of it. Let them be the party of hypocrisy. But the funniest thing is, they also "pretend" to be Christians when it clearly says in the Bible that you should not abandon your friends in their time of need. So WHO is truly the hypocrite?
By the same token...does anyone REALLY wonder why THIS is even a story, yet the comings and goings of Jeff Gannon at the WH was not? Or why it surfaces right after the resignation of Rove and Gonzales...or on the Anniversary of Katrina--or on the brink of a War with Iran? The simple reason that Craig was "outed" was because it was politically convenient cover. Another divisive wedge issue to throw to the masses so that they can work themselves into a lather.

[GCP]

1. Fair enough

But do you think Craig would be so fast to support you in your support of Gay Rights?
Thought not.

[Horse with no Name]

4. Not at all.

However, regardless of his behaviour he wouldn't support Gay rights whereas regardless of HIS behaviour, I still do.

[WI_DEM]

2. Are you saying that if you support gay rights that you can't call for a gay man to

resign even if he's broken the law and pleaded guilty and then tried to keep it covered up? I agree it's the other parties mess and I don't care if he resigns or not. It actually might help Dems if he doesn't resign because there wouldn't be a incumbent in office in 2008 (assuming that Craig didn't run in '08).

on edit: I don't know if he's gay or not. He loudly proclaims he isn't. And that isn't the point anyway.

[sam sarrha]

3. he isnt gay.. he is a predator. probably bisexual, but gay hasnt anything to do with it.. a predator

[Horse with no Name]

6. However, the press is calling him "Gay"

so that is what is being fed to the masses.

[rocktivity]

16. CRAIG says he isn't gay. So regardless of what anyone else says, he isn't.

Which frees him to keep hating gays and fighting against their rights. It's not his being closeted that's the problem, it's his being anti-gay--AND having the power to oppress them.

:headbang:
rocknation

[KaptBunnyPants]

13. Predator?

I thought that term was for rapists and molesters. Do you have any reason to suspect him of anything worse than casual sex in a public place?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Peeping toms sound like predators to me.

You?

[TomInTib]

19. Correct. And that's the part I find sickening.

Sex in public places is fine with me. I have participated in plenty of it (of the straight varietal).

But if anyone like Larry Craig ever repeatedly peeps thru the cracks in a stall that I am in, it will be a life-changing experience for them.

[Horse with no Name]

23. I have some advice for you

Don't ever eat on tables at the Rest Stops in Texas.
I've had sex on quite a few of them. Was a competition between a friend of mine in the early nineties...:)I won.

[TomInTib]

24. So that was you! Small world.

Congratulations on the win, H w n N.

on edit: I am a supporter of Gay Rights, but not of people of Larry Craig's ilk. Just wanted you to know.

[closeupready]

41. The word "predator" connotes someone who crosses a line between voyeur and actor.

A peeping tom (voyeur), by definition, does not act, he/she only watches (from the French word voir, to see).

[emilyg]

29. that's bad enough.

[sam sarrha]

46. he is a sex addict, hunting for sex.. from strangers not showing any response

[EFerrari]

5. I don't think this is about gay/straight. It's about antisocial behavior. n/t

[Horse with no Name]

7. Of course you are correct

But every news program is portraying him as Gay and making it a Gay issue, not a predatory issue.

[EFerrari]

10. I don't watch any more. Can't.

:shrug:

[Horse with no Name]

11. I'm getting there sister.

Very close. Have been working all week and mainly lurking, but sad to see that we lost one of our friends to this debate.:(

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

20. I don't see every news program making it a gay issue rather than what it is:

a man who found success via intolerance of a certain segment of humanity gets caught engaging in deviant behavior. His deviance is NOT a reflection on the segment of humanity he attacked for ambitious purposes. That segment, called homosexual, engages in honest, supportive and loving relationships and behaves in responsible and respectable ways towards fellow human beings.

It does bother me that, once again, homosexuality in and of itself is discriminated AS deviant in order to DIVERT AWAY FROM the behavior of a right-wing politico who's made a living attacking homosexuality AND gets caught being deviant.

I would say it's just the hypocrisy but it's more. It's about the intolerance and the bigotry, the political expediency and personal advantage, the perpetuation of myths and hatred; and the assumption that, just because you are a politician, you will get off the hook.

[EST]

33. May I add my agreement?

We seem to want to assign people to a pigeonhole and there they have to stay. Sexuality varies all over the map and people just don't all fit into convenient categories.

Craig is a predator because of his vehement, nasty denial of rights to others that he claims for himself. The picture I have in my mind is the BTK serial killer. He also denied human rights to others that he gave to himself.

There are some patterns of sexual/whatever behavior that are not socially acceptable because they interfere too profoundly with the rights of a large group of people and we make laws against that kind of behavior. If someone flouts those laws, they have voluntarily agreed to the expose themselves to the enforcement thereof.

In common parlance: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Jiminy God!

[BeFree]

9. It is

A wedge issue alright... and some people got some serious wedgies going down.

Playing right into bushco's hand. AGAIN!

[EFerrari]

12. They've captured the media as HWNN mentions up thread.

The Noise Machine is going to use this incident to tar gay people and incite hatred in their nutcase base.

[BeFree]

18. Exactly

They will find a way to get back to the Guns, God and Gay wedges which have turned people against people.

And it is a shame to see the gay folks doing their bidding.

[JackBeck]

35. Actually, the opposite has occurred.

GOP can't play the gay card anymore without being called hypocrites. Our community has turned a corner in this sense.

[closeupready]

40. That's actually a good point.

n/t

[EFerrari]

42. Really? I haven't been listening to the call in shows since the event.

It would be nice if their usual tricks blew back on them.

[JackBeck]

43. Think about it:

The sanctimonious moral majority is finally being exposed as being the opposite.

It's brilliant. The right wingers had their moment to spread their ideology over the last 6 years, and look at what their efforts produced. Craig, Vitter, Allen, Haggard...

[EFerrari]

44. They just always seem to get away with it.

:shrug:

If a tipping point has been reached, :toast:

[JackBeck]

45. I personally think it has been reached.

The RW experiment in governing the United States is dead.

[NMMNG]

36. Again I say,

How vast your ignorance is.

[Sapphocrat]

39. Oh no!

You found us out!

That's right: Every gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered DUer is a GOP shill! We bow down to King Karl -- who, by the way, is a great, big homosexual!

Oh, noooooooooooooo! What do we do now?!

Well, I guess now that we've been exposed, we'll all just have to go back to our old jobs at the phone banks, jamming the DNC's 800 number.

That is, when we're not all accosting unsuspecting heterosexuals in public toilets.

[Mz Pip]

15. I'm not calling

for his resignation and I don't think very many Democrats are. The Democrats are letting the Repugs scramble around on this one all by themselves.

It's a story because Craig is a high profile poltician who got busted and then tried to keep it a secret.

I'm pretty good at multi-tasking when it comes to managing all the outrages these Republicans cause. I'm still paying attention to Gonzo, Rove, Katrina and Iraq. Craig was just another fiasco that has befelled the Republicans of late. I don't sonsider it political cover as much as I consider it another nail in the coffin of the GOP.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Mr. Ected]

17. Because, It's the Hypocrisy, Stupid!

(just a phrase...not calling you stupid)

Anyone attempting to turn this into a gay-bashing incident has shifted the sands of the argument. Craig would not be called out on DU if he was an advocate of homosexual rights, and then was discovered to be homosexual.

No, Mr. Craig earned his living bashing and circumscribing the very group of people to whom he presumably belongs. He is a TRAITOR to those who espouse equal sexual rights, regardless of his personal affinities...because he is in a position to determine national policy and law on the subject, and undermines his own people in the name of power, greed, and party politics.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. Why Couldn't You?

One has not a thing to do with the other.

[JenniferJuniper]

22. How many times does he have to say it?

He is not gay!

[still_one]

25. You do realize this has nothing to do with him being gay?

It is more about comitting a crime, and hypocricy

[xchrom]

26. bread and circuses.

we used to talk more about that stuff around here.

[mondo joe]

27. Supporting equal rights for gays has nothing to do with supporting closeted gays breaking laws.

Please don't conflate the two.

[Warpy]

28. I support the right of consenting adults to do whatever they want

with their own bodies.

I do not support their right to do so in a public place.

Get it?

I support the right of any American to his or her own sexuality. I do not support the right of any American to pervert public office to oppress people who share part of their own sexuality.

Get it?

[OwnedByFerrets]

30. Politics and MONEY trump christianity

every time.

[Jack Rabbit]

31. I sympathize

I, too, wanted to remain silent about this, but Senator Craig's excuses quickly became so ridiculous that one just had to let out a loud laugh at some point.

This isn't homophobia, this is mocking somebody either taking denial to new lengths or somebody stupid enough to think he's fooling any one about still being in the closet.

Senator Craig was outed by an undercover cop. After all the votes he took saying the gay people were not entitled to be recognized as human beings, he deserves a little mockery. After he painted a target on his own back, he deserves a lot of it.

I see that it is about 8 pm Friday night in Washington and Senator Craig has not yet resigned. In one sense that surprises me, because I think the Republicans would like to talk about something else, anything else. But if we weren't talking about this, we'd be talking about more Bush Junta duplicity over Iraq. The Republicans don't want to talk about that, and the Democrats don't want to talk about how they've failed to end the war.

[SeattleGirl]

32. Personally, I could care less if he's gay.

What I care about is HIS hypocrisy, in that he consistently votes AGAINST gay rights. That's what matters to me.

[NaturalHigh]

34. That he's gay is irrelevant.

Cruising public restrooms for sex is a different story.

[Sapphocrat]

37. Not a hypocrite.

You wouldn't refrain from demanding the resignation of a straight senator who did the same thing just because he was black, would you? Of course not.

In case ya haven't noticed, HwwN, I support gay rights too. ;) And I feel no conflict whatsoever. Craig is a disgrace to the Senate (no small feat, that), and should resign.

Re the timing: Of course; it totally knocked Gonzo off the front page. They've been saving this story for when they knew they'd need it. At the the risk of tinfoil-hatting, I wouldn't put it past the GOP to have been behind the sting in the first place. Craig was probably no longer a useful idiot to them, and was expendable. And I'm sure they have his successor waiting in the wings.

[dpbrown]

38. Craig is (was) a Senator

That's why he's fair game.

[Terran]

47. What do gay rights have to do...?

with him retaining his job? He plead guilty to a crime and conducted himself in a way totally unfit for a member of the US Senate. His sexual orientation isn't related to any of that, except in a circumstantial way.

Ergo, no problem! :)

[ourbluenation]

48. I have a problem with any US Senator soliciting sex in a public place. Kids go in there for crying

loud. To me it says more about his decision making then anything else. I could give a shit if he's gay.

[huskerlaw]

49. Easy. He broke the law.

Propositioning sex in a public bathroom is illegal. It's not a gay or straight issue. It's just as illegal for a man to proposition a woman as it is for a man to proposition another man.

He broke the law. Period.

Plus, he's a hypocritical jackass. If Bill Clinton had propositioned Monica Lewinsky in a bathroom, this guy would have been leading the charge to impeach him.

[DrunkenMaster]

50. I'm Sorry

So you can't support the resignation of a gay man because you are gay? Craig BROKE THE LAW -- are you saying that any gay politican has your support no matter what they do? This has zippedysquat to do with equal rights.

[Vinca]

51. I don't think Craig is a "gay" issue. It's a "public sex" issue.

If there had been heteros frequenting the bathrooms for sex, the cops would have arrested them. As a gay person, how can you support a person who is apparently ashamed of his sexuality and in order to keep his secret he's spent his career denying you rights? I just don't get it. Pretend a hetero DUer put up your post about Craig caught with a woman. Would I support Craig because I'm a hetero and he's a hetero? Not bloody likely. You might have noticed there's no Vitter support here.