"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.

[madfloridian]

Not a single person in our state with whom I have been in contact has agreed with me that Florida is out of line. I suspect a few of my friends do, but here party disloyalty is not tolerated.

Oh, wait...make that state level it is not tolerated. It is just fine and dandy to tell the national party you are not going to follow the rules. I guess I expected more to agree with me, but if they do they won't speak up. It's like that here. :shrug:

So I felt better when I saw these articles and columns. I now know I am not alone.

LA Times: Get in Line, Florida.

Why don't we just vote for president tomorrow and be done with it?

Why don't we just vote for president tomorrow and be done with it? That would be the logical extension of the states' battle to get to, or at least near, the presidential primary starting line. California and 14 other states that wanted to weigh in early enough to make a difference picked Feb. 5 for their primaries, creating what's being called Super-Duper Tuesday because it's a month earlier and includes twice as many states as the Super Tuesdays of old. Now Florida lawmakers, unhappy at having their state's vote stuck in March, have decided to leapfrog that pack and set their nominating election for Jan. 29.

Not this time. The Democratic National Committee responded with some welcome party rigor: If you jump ahead of the Super-Dupers, the committee told Florida, your delegates will not be seated at the convention. The DNC's Republican counterpart has now made clear that it too will penalize states that hold early primaries.

And USA Today has a great idea about what to do with these bully states.

Boot rule-breaking states to the back of the line

Boot rule-breaking states to the back of the line. Our view on picking a president: Boot rule-breaking states to the back of the line. Parties step in to stop primary leapfrog. It’s about time.
Finally, some adult supervision is coming to the process of picking presidential nominees. And not a moment too soon.

Republican and Democratic party officials have stepped in to try to stop states from leapfrogging each other to set earlier and earlier primaries. The states' goal is to enhance their voters' influence by going first, hardly a malevolent motive.

But the resulting pell-mell scramble for the front of the line is threatening to push the first presidential voting into this year's holiday season, almost a year before the 2008 election, and then produce nominees as early as Feb. 5, a time when the public ordinarily would just be tuning into the race.

...."Just picture the result: The vetting process that gradually weeds out weaker candidates while giving others momentum will be truncated — an important loss this time around with large, wide-open fields in both major parties for the first time in decades."

Further the Palm Beach Post says Florida is looking bad again, only this time it is self-inflicted.

Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed

Friday, August 31, 2007

It's not a very proud time to be a Floridian.

We're looking bad again - and deservedly so. It's over voting. (Surprise!) And this time, a purely self-inflicted

Unfortunately, there's no good way to honey-coat this. Florida's transgression is something that people can understand, even if they have no interest in politics. It's one of those things you learn in kindergarten: Don't cut in line.

In this case, the national political parties have created a lineup of state primaries, spacing out the state-by-state votes on a schedule designed to be politically beneficial to the parties.
Does it make sense? You could make the argument that the early-voting states, Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada serve as a kind of spring-training season, where candidates gain credibility, or lose it, before the bigger states with lots of electoral votes weigh in.

The wisdom of the lineup, though, is beside the point. What's important is that without the national parties imposing some kind of order, there would be the kind of anarchy you see at a supermarket when a new cash register opens and a swarm of shopping carts collide trying to get there first.

And the Miami Herald has noticed, as have many of us have, that Bill Nelson really can get upset about Howard Dean. It has been especially noticeable lately.

Nelson keeps pushing back at DNC

Nelson keeps pushing back at DNC.

U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, Florida's highest ranking Democratic official, continues his aggressive public relations campaign against national party bureaucrats threatening to punish Florida for leapfrogging its presidential primary over other states. In a column in today's USA Today, he writes, "And it's ironic, because this year, after heartbreaking losses in 2000 and 2004, Democrats supposedly are united in their determination to win the presidency. That's hard to do when you tell 4 million Florida Democrats they don't count."

Some Democratic leaders are privately grumbling that the senator may be trying to help his colleague in the Senate, Hillary Clinton, who currently has the most to lose if Florida's primary doesn't count at the national convention. Nelson hasn't endorsed, but U.S. Reps. Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Alcee Hastings, who have also been outspoken, are Clinton supporters.

Nelson's column is billed as the newspaper's "opposing view" to its editorial supporting the national party's crackdown on rogue states like Florida.

Here is a part of the editorial that really set Nelson off, and caused his reply above.

"Finally, some adult supervision is coming to the process of picking presidential nominees...Florida's argument essentially boils down to one frequently invoked by schoolyard bullies and self-important celebrities: We deserve to go to the head of the line, we're too important to obey the rules and we dare you to stop us."

The Miami Herald criticized the state party, and Nelson did not like it.

I had an email telling me to just leave the issue alone and let it work itself out. Since Florida blamed Dean and the DNC for losing their delegates, I vowed to speak up since I knew better. Only today did one Florida Democrat admit finally that they did not fight back.

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.

And he couldn't just say it, he had to actually tell Dean to stop the circular firing squad...just about the same words in my email today from someone. And who started that circular firing squad, Dan?

[napi21]

1. well I'm on the side of the DNC on this one! I don't live in Fl, but I'm close...Ga.

Fl. along with all the other states whosuddenly think they have to be first is just arrogant stupidity! I've posted before that I understand what it feels like when your state primary is later in the year, like June, July, and August. I've been there! I too recognized that my vote didn't mean a damn thing! BUT, there's no reason you couldn't hold your primary on some other Feb. tuesday! Pick one for God sake and get beyond this BS.

[liberaldemocrat7]

15. I want to see a national primary in 2012

I want to see a national Democratic Primary in February 2012. I live in New York and why should people in a small state dictate who should remain on a NY primary ballot?

If you live in Iowa and New Hampshire, fine, you get to see a candidate close hand but I should get to have the choice of candidates you get. I do not consider myself a second class citizen.

The Democratic candidates will get months to debate issues as they do now, but on one day in 2012 hopefully the Democrats will settle the issue of who gets delegates to the Democratic party convention.

[Ravy]

41. Respectfully, I disagree.

A national primary sounds good, but if you want to see a candidate close hand, then few would in a national primary. Only the people with a big enough bankroll going into primary day would be able to effectively compete in a national primary.

Personally, I would rather have the field narrowed down a bit to where my vote would really go to deciding from the top two or three candidates who have already proven themselves competitive nationally.

Take a look at the national polls today. HRC would definitely win a national primary (if held today). That would really be fine with me, but she is not my first choice. However, if the rest of the field is narrowed down where candidate X drops out, then that support goes to candidate Y in a later primary. It could very well be that candidate Y will get enough support to be competitive against her. She may well increase her support when candidate X drops out, too. The point is that bigger states, voting later in the process, really have MORE say in determining who the eventual nominee actually is.

Granted, it would suck if the nomination was won by the time it came to your spot in line, but think of the tremendous clout the big states have if it is not over (when it could REALLY make a difference).

[Dr.Phool]

19. Here's Florida seen from a different perspective.

I traveled up to South Carolina this week, and evidently the rest of the country thinks we're full of shit too.

Here's an editorial from the Myrtle Beach Sun, from Wed. August 29.

Posted on Wed, Aug. 29, 2007

EDITORIAL
Back Off, Florida
DNC did well in fighting for S.C. primary's integrity

Because it will be hosting the final Democratic presidential debate before the 2008 S.C. Democratic presidential primary, Myrtle Beach has a direct stake in the fallout from the Democratic National Committee's go-round with Florida Democrats last week. The Florida Democratic Party plans to hold its presidential primary Jan. 29, 2008 - the same day as the S.C. Democratic primary.

On Saturday, however, the DNC decreed that unless Florida Democrats move their primary to Feb. 5 or later, Florida delegates picked in the primary won't be seated at the Democratic National Convention in Denver next summer. If the Florida Democratic Party obeys the DNC decision and moves its primary into February or later - a big if - the national significance of the S.C. Democratic primary will likely be secure.

Party leaders in other states who are considering encroaching on South Carolina's turf as an early-primary state, Michigan especially, might also be cowed into obeying a key DNC rule: Only Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina can select delegates in caucuses or primaries before Feb. 5.

The DNC edict could also help the S.C. Republican Party secure the integrity of its presidential primary, which is trending toward weirdness. The S.C. GOP's primary date is Jan. 19 - a Saturday. S.C. GOP Chairman Katon Dawson has resolved to move the event even earlier if that's what it takes to fend off Florida and the other big-bully states that want to increase their president-picking power at South Carolina's expense.

(snip) rest of article at:
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/opinion/story/171460.html


I know it can be frustrating for a state to have a late primary. In 2004, when we had our presidential primary in March, Kerry had already won the nomination. This is why the DNC revamped the primary schedule this year, to get a better cross section of our voters involved in the selection process. States with a heavy union representation, large urban areas, etc.,etc.

But, we down in Florida feel we're sooo important, that we have to go first. While we do have a diverse population, we're not that representative of America as a whole. All we had to do was wait another week, and there wouldn't have been any problem.

And guess what? Other states think that they're more special than us. They want to have their primaries even earlier. Now, we'll have to move it up to November. Maybe September, if someone else changes theirs again.

And for the 2012 election cycle, we can move our primary up to November 15, 2008. Unless Iowa holds it's caucus on the 14th, in which we'll move up to the 12th.

I agree with Madfloridian, that Bill Nelson never bothers to fight for anything we want, but he'll come out swinging over some bullshit like this, when we're clearly in the wrong. And as for Karen Thurman, she's Bill Nelson's stooge, but, that's another story.

[DURHAM D]

2. You must be very frustrated down there.

You got a bunch of folks from the other 49 that agree with you.

P.S. Have you seen Will's filing yet?

[madfloridian]

4. It is very frustrating here.

For a while it was better, and kind of exciting being involved. But even the ones who were enthusiastic along with us have turned back to the old ways of the party...letting the leadership take control of the message even if it is wrong. I have been surprised at some, but this is a hard area in which to live....so I try to understand.

I have always been outspoken, but for most here it is not easy.

I saw a filing by an activist. I don't want to give names away carelessly. Don't know if it is the same. It appears to be based on the 14th amendment.

"14th Amendment Cited
The lawsuit alleges that the national party would violate the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees equal protection under the law, by not counting the Floridians' votes.

However, Mark Herron, a Tallahassee elections law expert and counsel for the Florida Democratic Party, said he believes the national party is within its rights under the First Amendment.

"The parties have the right to associate, … including terms of membership and the terms under which they operate," he said. In essence, the right to make their own rules and specify how nominees for president are chosen."

http://www.tbo.com/news/metro/MGBY6VE306F.html

I think a Supreme Court ruling set precedence also.

Yep, I think I am venting a little by posting about it. I am been so very angry. It's hard to know the lies and watch them do this stuff without blinking.

[DURHAM D]

6. Thanks for your response.

That complaint looks really thin. And Nelson and others look like peevish children and bullies.

I am a Clinton supporter but I don't support this move by Nelson et al. I hope Hillary has enough influence over him to get him to back off and do the right thing - just organize a damn caucus in February for god's sake.

[madfloridian]

8. Yes, it does. I found more on what the DNC spokes person said.

"U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and other Democratic members of the Florida congressional delegation have also threatened to take legal action.

The Democratic National Committee said they are within their rights.

"Florida has the right to determine its primary date. However, the Supreme Court determined more than 25 years ago that the Democratic Party has the legal right to establish the rules by which they select and seat delegates to the National Convention. We continue to hope that Florida will do the right thing and come up with a plan that's in compliance with the rules the DNC and its members from Florida voted for," said DNC spokeswoman Stacie Paxton."

I do not think they will back down. I think we are in for a fight. I agree the case looks thin, but I have not seen the whole filing.

I fear they underestimate Dean. After all he was governor for 11 years. They talk about him here like he is some hick fellow who accidentally got the position.

[DURHAM D]

11. Of course this is not directed at you personally...

But most other DNC attendees will turn a deaf ear to Florida crying foul about their delegation to the national convention.

I assume it is not the Dems fault down there (I guess) but Florida has a bad track record when it comes to clean elections. Every two years something else happens with the election process. When Nelson tries to take the moral high ground and "protect" Florida voters he just looks foolish. We think - Good grief, why don't you worry about getting your own election house in order before you try to push the national party around.

[madfloridian]

12. Oh, I totally agree. I hope they all speak out about it. We do look foolish.

And no one has the guts to email me and say I am right. I have shared details with those who were taken in by the party spin...they don't want to be bothered. The we need to have our votes counted mentality has taken over.

[Colonel Bat Guano]

43. "The we need to have our votes counted mentality has taken over."

As a Florida voter, I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read something like this on this board.

[madfloridian]

44. Then realize your votes do count and the Florida Dems are spinning.

Florida broke the rules knowingly and intentionally and then blamed the DNC.

I want my vote to count. My vote DOES count still....just not for delegates to the convention because my state broke the rules.

[Divine Discontent]

47. ya know...

like I said, I like Bill Nelson, but I see him as an HRC Democrat, so maybe he's doing as instructed, so it helps her seal it up (nom) early, and he's been told he'll get a cabinet seat or VP spot, hey you never know! It's FL he's from after all, and he's got good #'s here as the top Democrat in the state. just a thought?!

[Ediacara]

3. "That's hard to do when you tell 4 million Florida Democrats they don't count."

So in essence Bill, you're telling 120 million other voting Americans that you guys are the only ones that should count? Classy.

[madfloridian]

5. But you don't understand how important we are here....

The 4 million of us count more than all the other millions.

May sound sarcastic, but that is actually how people have been sounding here. Kinda of sad and very self-centered..

I think there is more to it than just being selfish about state interest...I think the congresional Dems here needed to show power. Still trying to figure out all of it.

[Ediacara]

7. While I agree that the IA & NH *must* be first rule is a little more than silly

Florida is making the situation worse. I think that Dean will try to organize state parties to get on a rotating random schedule for 2016 that will continue to be random in perpetuity. It's the only way to avoid choosing the 2016 presidential nominees in 2013.

[madfloridian]

9. I agree.

I believe more change is coming if time is given.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

10. As an old saying goes

There is a time and place for everything.

Thats one thing the Florida democrats needs to learn i think, as the time and place for an argument/fight about the party rules regarding the election is NOT after the race for the white house has already started(even if far to early) AND especially not when its only a year ago if that long since they agreed to the said rules in the first place

[HardRocker05]

13. single day national primary. nt

[Vidar]

14. I entirely agree with you, madfloridian. Thanks for the articles backing up that position

[iamjoy]

16. Well, I See Both Sides To This

As for not cutting in line, it's very simple - waiting your turn in line works when you know there will be enough for everyone. It's the courteous thing to do. However, we waited our turn last time (in 2000 and 2004) and by the time it was our turn, there was nothing left - that is, the nomination had been decided.

With California going on February 5, we knew there would be nothing for us if we did the right thing and waited for that date (or after). Moving our primary up was the only way we could have a voice. Shouldn't we have a voice? After all, the candidates and party love tapping Florida, California and New York for money.

And that's what it's really about - money. The legislature hoped that an early influential primary would bring money here as the campaigns would have to spend it to compete and the media would have to spend it to cover the campaign.

Yes, the DNC was trying to instill discipline, but if you want people to be courteous and wait in line, they must have assurances that if they wait their turn, there will be something for them. Otherwise, they will risk punishment to try to get what they want.

That being said, the rules were in place - was the concern about those at the back of the line counting brought up in discussing those rules? It seems not. That's kind of like agreeing to play a game by one set of rules and then changing them on the field. It's dirty pool.

And THAT being said - I do feel more than a little angry that my vote may not count now. If it were not personal, I would say it serves them right. They tried to use manipulation to get a voice and wound up with no voice at all. It's poetic justice. But see, it is my state party and legislatures who did the manipulation and it is me who is being punished. How is that just? The state party and legislature doesn't care - they still get the money. The national party is rightly concerned about instilling discipline, but they are punishing the children for the wrongs of the parents.

Why can't the DNC come up with a plan that punishes the legislatures and state party officials, but not the voters? I actually have a few ideas on this, but haven't really thought through whether they are practical.

[madfloridian]

20. Florida voted for the plan.

I want primary change, but I am embarrassed that my state is trying to tear down the DNC just as it is building up in all the states.

I am very angry. They have lied about who broke the rules.

I have seen rationalizations for this until I am sick.

You do NOT lie about others in your party like Nelson and Thurman and others lied about Dean and the DNC taking their votes away.

They are making a move to break his power and hold it until the nominee is chosen.

[iamjoy]

22. I Agree On That Point

the state is trying to bully its way to an early primary. But can't the DNC find a way to punish Nelson, Thurman, etc that doesn't also punish the rest of us?

From what you are saying, the state party leadership has no reason to compromise. They don't care if our primary is a beauty contest, because they are confident Hillary is the most attractive candidate. Meanwhile, the state profits from any money spent in the contest.

As you can see though, being tough is not helping the DNC "control" the nomination process. Michigan moved up its primary fully aware it would face the same sanctions as Florida, they voted on it AFTER the DNC announced it was stripping Florida's delegates. So, it is obvious the DNC plan (however sensible) is not working.

[madfloridian]

23. Your vote still counts in January....just not for delegates.

You can vote on everything else, like the big tax bill that Florida Dems want us to vote against but haven't bothered to publicize..

Florida lied and used propaganda against its own party.

[riona]

24. Concerned citizens want to encourage primary voting,

which has been abysmal in the past. However, what happened to us, as you mentioned in your first paragraph, is no way to encourage participation in the election process. Really, to fair and get an improved voter turnout, we really need one day for all states to vote.

[madfloridian]

26. Good idea. They should vote for that next time and not screw up this election.

Everyone needs a bigger say but some of us are bullies.

[riona]

27. Amen

[bemildred]

17. The state parties are rebelling against the national party.

I don't know whether I consider that a good thing or not. On the one hand the manipulation of the selection process to favor insiders and to marginalize outsiders is an egregious problem, as Kucinich (an outsider) has pointed out. On the other hand, the national party ought to regulate the selection process for the one two national candidates the party has, i.e. the Presidential candidate (oh yeah, and the VP.)

It is NOT either sensible or fair that the large, urban states are regulated to the back of the line in the selection process, it is undemocratic, in fact. I don't mean any disrespect for smaller states by that, but democracy is based on majority rule, and to field candidates that will really kick ass, you have to allow large, urban states their due weight in the selection process.

To the extent this leads to sensible reforms and truly popular and representative candidates, it could be a good thing. Otherwise, not.

[madfloridian]

18. Florida should not have voted for the rules if they were not going to follow them.

Do you think it is ok that Florida lied and blamed Dean and the DNC for taking their votes away when they did it to themselves on purpose and laughed on the house and senate floors?

Florida's propaganda war

[bemildred]

21. "the national party ought to regulate the selection process"

Is there something unclear about that?

[nosillies]

31. Well said

I truly hope some reform comes out of this, but I'm not holding my breath.

No, one state's party leaders shouldn't be allowed to break the rules. However, rules that allow places like Iowa and New Hampshire, with Nevada and South Carolina thrown in for a little spice, to have a large influence on primary elections are just plain stupid rules. Sorry, but these states are not in the least bit representative of our nation's Democratic voters.

Sure, I'm pissed at my state's party leaders. But I'm also pissed at my nation's party leaders. To place all the blame squarely on one group or the other is short-sighted. Basically, they're all whipping their dicks out to try to look like big boys in a pissing match, and they all look ridiculous.

The sad part is, none of them will pay for their childish antics. Instead I, and many other Florida Democratic voters, will suffer the consequences.

[madfloridian]

32. Florida whipped out their "dicks" first, as you so colorfully put it.

Read Donna Brazille's op ed below. There is a plan on the horizon.

When we get through with all the "dick" stuff, maybe we can have an election.

Florida is dead wrong and they lied.

AND your vote counts except for delegates. You can still go and vote against the GOP tax plan.

[madfloridian]

25. More stuff....and why it angers me so.

They keep referring to two "white" states like IA and NH, and that is not true either. See the MyDD post below...the DNC has added NV and SC with more diverse populations.

My anger is because my state lied and said they fought the DNC on this. Florida knew that if they fought for the rules against the GOP their delegates would not have been taken away. But they lied and sent around emails that Dean was stealing their votes.

They asked people to stop donations to the party. Talk about being selfish?

Propaganda war

Here is the DNC statement about the delegates:

"Florida has the right to determine its primary date. However, the Supreme Court determined more than 25 years ago that the Democratic Party has the legal right to establish the rules by which they select and seat delegates to the National Convention. We continue to hope that Florida will do the right thing and come up with a plan that's in compliance with the rules the DNC and its members from Florida voted for," said DNC spokeswoman Stacie Paxton."

And here is a good explanation from MyDD.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/3/27/12055/9191

"It is also almost certainly an attempt to stick it to Howard Dean of the DNC, whose new primary calendar finally allows minorities such as Latinos, African-Americans and union members to have a say in determining the next president, which is an anathema to Florida’s elites who have done everything in their power over the past decade to make sure that those groups are not even allowed to vote. The move is also a huge boon to the frontrunning campaigns of Rudy Giuliani and Hillary Clinton, both of whom have tremendous advantages in Florida. If Florida is on January 29th, it will be extremely difficult to see a path for any other candidate as long as Clinton or Giuliani manage to come within a close second in New Hampshire. As I type this, that is a criteria both candidates meet quite easily."

And more from FDL by Jane Hamsher.

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/25/dnc-to-florida-democrats-not-so-fast

And from Daily Kos.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/8/25/14134/8863

People are zeroing in on the "my vote won't count" thing which Florida started. They are forgetting Florida is only part of a bigger picture.

[madfloridian]

28. Great op ed by Donna Brazile of the Rules Committee today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/31/AR2007083101427.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

"It's simple: state envy. Just look at what one governor said recently regarding her state moving its primary forward in 2008. "Holding an early presidential preference election attracts more presidential candidates, staff and media to Arizona," said Gov. Janet Napolitano, "increasing Arizona's sales tax revenues and promoting Arizona's hotels, restaurants and businesses." At least she was honest.

As a member of the DNC's rules and bylaws committee, I understand why states such as Arizona, Michigan, Ohio and Wyoming, and even the District of Columbia, crave the media attention and financial resources that holding an early presidential contest draws. But the nominating system should not be determined by a state's economic development plan or a desire to have candidates focus on parochial issues.

Our nominating process is supposed to yield the best possible candidates for the most powerful position in the world. Unfortunately for all of us, it is a deeply flawed system in desperate need of reform. Recent proposals to create a regional rotation system in 2012, or the "Delaware Plan" to allow smaller states to go first, should be on the table for discussion starting this fall."

.."The DNC tried to address this problem by letting two states join Iowa and New Hampshire in the coveted "pre-window" period before Feb. 5. States were invited to apply, and 12 of them, plus the District of Columbia, did so. The process was fair and democratic. Florida, which had a chance to become "first in the South," did not apply. Now it is asking for another chance."

And on edit...good for Obama and Edwards.

http://www.wkrn.com/nashville/news/ap-obama-edwards-skip-rogue-primary-states/115758.htm

"Democrats Barack Obama and John Edwards on Saturday joined three other Democrats in vowing to skip states that break party rules by holding early primaries, a move that leaves front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton alone in planning to compete in Florida and Michigan.

The decision by Obama and Edwards is a major boost to the primacy of the four early voting states _ Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina _ and a welcome development to the Democratic National Committee, which has tried to Democrats Barack Obama and John Edwards on Saturday joined three other Democrats in vowing to skip states that break party rules by holding early primaries, a move that leaves front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton alone in planning to compete in Florida and Michigan."

[AZ Criminal JD]

29. This Brazile Op-Ed is off the mark

First, Florida has every right to have its primary whenever it wants. Its 4 million votes should not be taken away to satisfy the parochial interests of a couple hundred thousand votes in Iowa and New Hampshire. Brazile says the nominating process should not "have candidates focus on parochial issues." What about ethanol in Iowa? A parochial issue if there ever was one. Every candidate runs around the corn fields praising a product that uses more in energy to produce than it saves. What a joke!

Florida will vote and get its delegates. The nominee of our party will seat the Florida delegates in order to avoid a convention fight. The votes of 120 million Americans should not be diminished by silly state laws in Iowa and New Hampshire who do not represent America. Florida has every right to make a state law if Iowa and New Hampshire do. The only reason the various candidates are signing statements they will not campaign in Florida and Michigan is that they had no chance to win there. What if they get the nomination? Are they then going to go back to those state's voters who they rejected in the nominating process? I wonder how they will be received?

[madfloridian]

30. Big tough Florida ....

right now they are just plain wrong.

This we are gonna be the big guy anyway, we are going to march our delegates to Denver stuff is sounding a little over the top.

[AZ Criminal JD]

34. It's not Florida ...

It's the nominee of our party that will march the delegates in. She/He will at least want a chance to win the Florida general election although Dean has probably blown that possiblity.

[madfloridian]

35. Times change.

Things change.

We don't know the nominee yet.

Florida blew their chance and lied about what they had done.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

[Ediacara]

33. So the 120 million other voters can fuck off?

Classy.

Additionally, the SCOTUS has ruled that a national party can choose its nominee any way it damn well pleases and doesn't need to even have elections. All your tough talk about the 14th Amendment is just talk as far as the law is concerned.

[AZ Criminal JD]

36. Don't know who you are replying to....

I didn't say a word about the 14th Amendment. Yes we all know the SCOTUS says we don't have to have elections. We learned that in Florida in 2000. If we want to win however, we shouldn't be taking advice from the Supreme Court, I believe.

[Ediacara]

38. I'm replying to you

The whole case the Florida Party is trying to present is based on some nonsense about the 14th Amendment. Their case is specious and they're acting like two year olds.

[AZ Criminal JD]

45. I don't know what the 14th Amendment argument is about

And I don't care. Florida has a right to vote when it wants to vote. It is a large diverse state unlike Iowa and New Hampshire who are 99% white and the biggest population centers are classified as towns.

[Ediacara]

46. Nevada and South Carolina are much more diverse than IA and NH

and are now in the first tier of primary states.

Additionally, FLORIDA WAS GIVEN THE CHANCE TO ENTER INTO THE FIRST TIER OF PRIMARY STATES BY THE DNC AND THEY DECLINED. They also AGREED TO ABIDE BY THE RULES SET FORTH BY THE DNC THAT SAID THAT IA, NH, SC, AND NV GO FIRST.

They're just acting like two year olds, there's no way around it.

[Yukari Yakumo]

37. Think the GOP is going to "cash in" on this?

Guess again.

The GOP is joining the Dems in penalizing states who are jumping ahead of schedule. The RNC insists they too will penalize states that schedule nominating contests before Feb. 5 by withholding half of their delegates (if not more) to the conventions next summer. Wyoming has already lost half of its delegates and it looks like Florida will join them soon. Also in danger of losing GOP delegates because of their rulebreaking are New Hampshire, Michigan and South Carolina.

[tnlefty]

39. Thanks for posting all that you have regarding this

situation. I have a friend in N GA and we can no longer even discuss this. He grew up in FL and as he says he admittedly has a "soft spot for FL". I agree that neither FL nor MI, nor any other state that is making moves to break the rules should be allowed to do so. Our primary was moved up but within the rules to Feb. 5th.

I did mention that I think that this is an attempt to embarrass Chairman Dean nationally and that if he is weakened and/or forced out because of this, then I will be done. No more standing holding signs, no more phone banking, I'll resign from my precinct position, from the county board, slam my checkbook shut...just done.

Because of an undying devotion to Howard Dean? No, I just remember his attempts to energize the Democratic party at a time when it was really needed, and I'm only getting older and don't have time to continue pissing in the wind. I'll devote my time to my children and to doing other activities.

[madfloridian]

40. Very well said.

Your last paragraph hit me just right. It has become a talking point here with some about those who might have too much "Dean loyalty". I get so tired of it I don't even bother to argue much anymore.

This part:

"I just remember his attempts to energize the Democratic party at a time when it was really needed, and I'm only getting older and don't have time to continue pissing in the wind. I'll devote my time to my children and to doing other activities."

Yes, he has devoted himself to bringing new life to the party. He did not do it because he wanted to do it but because he knew a lot of people would drop back out again after the bitterness in 04.

So it is about another bunch doing what it can to undermine his efforts just as Carville did right after the election.

One has to ask oneself why some people don't want a strong national party, but just a party run by the nominee. But I think we know the answer.

[tnlefty]

42. True, and I remember a couple of other Dems who stand out...

Al Gore during his MoveOn speech followed by his speech at Constitution Hall (I think it was Hall, which I think is part of the Constitution Center). If not, please correct me.

Wes Clark who did radio ads and campaigned for Ned Lamont when others couldn't bring themselves to actively support the winner of the Dem primary.

There are others, but if I mention them and their efforts, the barbs of being a leftist, lunatic, fringist will begin to fly, and I really want to laugh when I read that hurled at me, but that's another story.

It's not just a devotion to Dean, but to others who try to stand up.

[mdmc]

48. kick

Kick