An epidemic of student debt

[liberal N proud]

Paying for college shouldn't be an economic burden on our nation's best and brightest.

More than ever, we need a highly skilled and highly educated workforce to stay competitive in the global marketplace. The student loan crisis is bad news for our nation's economy, and it's bad news for working families trying to improve their lives.

The Democratic Congress recently passed the largest increase in student aid since the GI bill -- but President Bush hasn't yet signed it into law. Sign our petition and tell George Bush to help make sure every American can get the education they deserve:

http://www.democrats.org/StudentsDebt

Since 2001, tuition and fees at public universities have climbed by 41 percent. The Department of Education estimates that financial barriers will prevent more than six million high school graduates from attending college over the next decade.

That's troubling for our country's ability to compete in the international economy. Unless we act now, the United States is projected to face a shortage of 12 million college-educated workers by 2020. It's in our national interest to make sure everyone has access to affordable higher education.

And that doesn't mean helping students attend college, only to face massive debt upon graduation. Currently the average student borrower graduates with $17,500 in debt. For some students, their debt can reach six figures. Faced with the prospect of paying back hundreds of dollars in loans a month, many graduates abandon plans for jobs in public service in favor of higher-paying jobs in the private sector.

Democrats are working hard to solve the problem -- reducing interest rates on student loans, capping monthly loan payments based on income, and forgiving loans for students who take public-sector jobs. These are common-sense proposals that give our children a real chance for a prosperous future.

The time has come to do something about our broken student loan system. Help the Democrats demand an affordable college education for all Americans:

http://www.democrats.org/StudentsDebt

The need for student loan reform is clear, but achieving it won't be easy.

Private loan companies and banks have a huge stake in maintaining the status quo. Student loans have become the second most profitable business for American banks, after credit cards. And private lenders currently receive huge subsidies from the government -- subsidies they'll fight incredibly hard to protect.

That's why it's so important to create a powerful, united force to stand up to these private lenders and stick up for American students. Join that effort by signing our petition and demanding student loan reform:

http://www.democrats.org/StudentsDebt

Thank you,

Tom McMahon
DNC Executive Director

[Trillo]

1. Be nice to see free community college education.

maybe even 4 year.

Calls for the government to control all the money supply gets trolled. The U.S. Constitution supposedly grants 'power to coin money' to congress, not private bankers, but we all know what some think of that damned piece of paper.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Exactly. Universal healthcare and lifelong universal education

[Yupster]

2. I have never been able to figure out why college

costs have gone up so much faster than inflation for the last 30 years.

It's not the professors getting the money, so where is it all going?

Middle class families are being priced out of the market.

[1932]

24. Just like home prices, banks willingness to put people in outrageous, unsustainable debt prevents

a downward pressure on prices.

[MetaTrope]

54. It was interesting to see what's been done to my old college dormitory

Used to be quite livable but basic...a vintage brick construct, communal bathrooms on each floor, lobby and cafeteria connecting two wings.

NOW...the interior's been completely rebuilt, the communal bathrooms have jacuzzis and individual changing rooms attached to each shower, and the cafeteria has become a leased coffee shop, while a new two-story glass-and-steel building has been constructed across the street to hold the cafeteria.

Living expenses were always the biggest ding on student budgets even back then. I can't imagine what living in the new facility is going to cost.

[mslawstudent]

3. Its a combination of alot of things.

1. Student loans have increased in access and presence. Prices for things like education increase just like housing. I think these interest rate subsidies and such really bite back because people can afford more expensive schools and schools raise prices to what the market can bear.
2. States are cutting back on subsidies. There are still states where state college ed is dirt cheap.
3. Professor are getting a benefit in terms of workload which has decreased tremendously over the years. Certain subject pay $$$, english and math sux but real world stuff pays competitively.

[coco77]

5. Is the amount the student has access to more...

since the price of education has gone up. Is there a great difference in the interest rates between subsidize and unsubsidized loans.

[mslawstudent]

6. The amount a student has access too has increased over the years.

I don't believe most of the government programs are expressed as a percentage of the cost though. Usually there is a cap.

Subsidized and unsubsidized difference is significant. Colleges would focus on delivering the education for less if the students couldn't or wouldn't take out 15k a year loans. The amount of funding available to students has tracked the cost of education very closely. (more of a college jacking the prices up to just over the amount available, amount available goes up, prices go up) I also really think student loans subsidies should be severly limited for private school education.

[Nikia]

7. Why shouldn't subsidized loans be available for private education?

Without my Federal subsidized loans, I probably wouldn't have been able to attend the small private liberal arts college that I did. The best colleges in the state where I grew up Ohio State University and Miami of Ohio are huge, which made them less desireable for me. As part of my financial aid package, I received maximum subsidized loans. I also received a Pell Grant, an academic scholarship, and a substantial need based scholarship as well. What difference does it make if a student such as me borrowed the maximum subsidized amount to go where I did and got scholarships to pay for the majority of the rest or went to a big state university where I would not have gotten a scholarship from the university?

[mslawstudent]

19. Because of the increased cost

I really don't object to the same availibilty as the state option.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

11. What subjects pay $$$?

And what do you consider $$$?

Law profs at state schools make around $160,000.

[Alcibiades]

20. Ans the cost of health benefits

Lots of companies have cut back on health coverage (often by increasing deductibles and co-payments), but the benefits at most colleges and universities remain good. As a consequence, they pay ever more especially when compared to other employers, and considering the great hikes in the costs of health care.

What burns me is that many of these colleges and universities have big endowments. They could do a lot more for kids.

[knitter4democracy]

4. We're still paying the med school loans.

Hubby finished residency with $175K in debt just from med school. I didn't have any student loans from college (thanks, Mom and Dad!--you worked hard to make that happen), and neither did he (thanks to scholarships and working as a nurse's aid in nursing homes). All of that is med school debt. Then there's the consumer debt from living through med school and residency (the move really cost us more than we'd planned). *sigh* I just hope we can get the main one down when the other one's paid off in two years.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

10. ...

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

17. never mind

[knitter4democracy]

18. Why, you think it's easy to pay off that kind of debt?

Hubby's parents did not help him one iota, even though they pressured him to go. My parents helped what little they could, but they're middle class and were tight with money as it was. I taught at a Catholic high school and made less than twenty thousand for my first two years. I know tight. We lived praying for nothing big to go wrong for years.

Now, we basically have two house payments. It's affected what kind of jobs Hubby can take, which schools we can send our children to, and how much I spend on groceries. Our house is worth less than our med school debt, even, but the only way we could do it was to get an ARM for part of it. Those payments aren't easy.

I can our food, clip coupons for school clothes, and cut corners where I can. It's not like we live the easy life, trust me. I do know doctors who do, but they're much older and out of med school debt. Most are specialists who can make far more than my husband can. Don't get me wrong, he makes good money, but we lose over $14K a year in med school loan repayments. We moved into a higher tax bracket last year, so we lost more in taxes, too. When the partners at his former practice wanted him to take a $50K annual paycut, as much as he loved the job, we couldn't afford it. I don't know anyone who can.

[Alcibiades]

21. I understand your situation

I got my Ph.D. in 2006. I have about $150,000 in debts (mom & stepdad & dad & stepmom paid nothing, even though all encouraged me to go and assured me the money would be there--thanks, you guys!) & my wife (a psychologist) has about another $50,000.

We're in deferment, and will keep it that way for as long as possible. We've accepted that we will never be able to pay off our loans, unless something freaky happens such as me writing the great american novel. We'll die in debt. We're looking at houses, too, but they have to be under $200K, for much the same reasons you describe.

Not sure, but I think the eye rolling was over the prospect that, in your post, it appears you claim you will pay off a $150k loan in two years. Most of us in a similar situation wish we could do that.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

23. In what field, and from where, did you get your PhD?

:D

A PhD is a little different from an MD or JD, especially if you're in the humanities. :( But your wife, I'm sure, makes decent money. And if you have a professorship already, you probably have a job you love. That's more than a lot of people can say.

[knitter4democracy]

25. Oh, no, only the private part.

The loans are in two parts, one that was consolidated and the vast majority of the loans, and one that's private from the med school. That part should be paid off in two years (they wouldn't give us more time, so the payments are big). I'm sorry if that was confusing.

Hubby didn't do a fellowship after residency because the debt was so huge by the end of residency. If he'd done the fellowship he was thinking of, the debt would've been over $200K. That, and that specialty meant he'd never, ever be home. I couldn't handle three or four more years of that, and he was tired of it, too. That deferment is a killer--all that interest still adds up.

I'm just hoping it'll be paid off by the time the kids go off to college. *sigh*

[smirkymonkey]

44. I'm in the same boat. most of my debt is intererest. It feels hope

lees to me. Is there anyone who knows someone I can talk to (that won't cost a lot of money that will help me navigate through it?) I have almost considered ending it all, just because I feel like I have no future with that debt (and those usuruous intreste rates hanging over my head) - it's been in deferrment and forebearance because I don't make enough money to pay off the minimum paymnet.

[knitter4democracy]

53. Can your college still help?

I had a friend who was in deferment because she didn't make enough for the minimum payment, and her college's financial aid office actually helped her deal with it and negotiate with the companies. Then she switched schools to get a higher salary. She was working full time and living at her mom's house, her pay was so low before.

My dad was right: it's wrong to put that much debt on young people just starting out. He worked himself through college, and he's helped many since, just because it makes him so mad to see all that debt weighing young people down. It's wrong.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

22. I had about $100K in loans from law school.

I would never complain about school loans with a JD. It's ridiculous. It's especially ridiculous for an MD. And you cry that his parents didn't help him pay for an MD? Wow.

Unless he went to a non-accredited medical school, you two have nothing to worry about. And even if he did, you'll still be fine.

[knitter4democracy]

26. Where do you practice law?

The average pay for a JD in the state of Michigan is $45,000. Paying off that kind of debt on that kind of salary would be rough. My BIL had a ton in law school debt, too, but he got a high-paying job and managed to pay it all off early. He didn't have children then, though.

I'm mad that my in-laws didn't help when the med school had them sign a document of their share of the tuition every year, and they did, but they never paid it, so we had to take out more in loans. I didn't expect them to pay for his MD, just help pay what they promised to pay. They didn't, but they sure put enough pressure on my hubby to go there. High expectations with no support is wrong, in my opinion.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

27. Chicago. But I went to an elite law school.

People who don't get into elite schools really don't belong practicing law/medicine, in my opinion. That's why in the case of doctors there's so much medical malpractice. Most are unqualified, incompetent, and generally dumb.

[knitter4democracy]

28. Hubby went to a top-tier med school.

He's now "just" an internist in a smaller town. If he'd gone academic, he'd have more prestige and less money. He did residency with many from second-tier schools, and they were good doctors. A couple from "better" schools were awful at communication with patients and attendings. Frankly, I don't think the school you went to means a whole lot anymore after knowing many doctors.

Malpractice happens often as simple mistakes. Hubby came the closest once when a nurse read off the wrong number over the phone, so he missed the diagnosis for a couple of days. When the patient wasn't getting better, he sat down with her whole file and started over, and that's when he found the error. He was glad that he didn't lose her and that she ended up doing fine once he treated the real problem, but it sure scared him. He's glad he can access everything on-line now. He's not "unqualified, incompetent, and generally dumb" but instead now re-checks what he's told over the phone and makes sure to spend enough time with patients.

The only doctor I know who's probably committed malpractice cuts corners anywhere he can. He went to a good school and a good residency program, but after many years in practice, he's gotten lazy at the details. Hubby saved many of his patients when he worked there and talked with him more than once about it, to no avail. The guy needs to retire.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

29. If you know very many doctors, I'm sure you know more than one who

has committed malpractice. In fact, it's pretty likely that you know a doctor who's killed a person.

Yes, medical mistakes are usually quite simple. That's why they're so deplorable. Often a doctor will carelessly write the wrong dosage on a prescription resulting in the death of his/her patient. Oops!

Also, tier one doesn't equal elite. Anyone sufficiently motivated--as someone with parents pushing him to go to medical school would be--to go a tier one medical/law school can get in.

[knitter4democracy]

32. Of course.

Things are more complicated than that, though. If a patient is terminal and a doctor gives enough pain medication to cover their pain level, they'll die sooner. It's that simple. So, the question becomes one of balancing the side effects of the medication and the needs of the patient. That's what they fine-tune in residency, knowing how to do that.

Doctor mistakes don't kill anywhere near as many patients as disease and trauma do, though. It's easy to blame a doctor's "careless" mistake that comes from too heavy a load on not enough sleep, but we also have to look at the disease.

My doctor, many years ago, misdiagnosed me. I was having severe abdominal pain, and after a month of testing and such, my Ob/Gyn agreed with my FP and called it endometriosis. For ten years, I thought I had that. None of my doctors questioned it. When it got dramatically worse, after finding a new specialist and trying a new treatment that failed, the surgery results were that it had been my appendix all along. Was that malpractice? No. Based on the information that my doctors had at the time, based on the history, physical, and test results, the endo diagnosis made sense. It was only when the specialist cut me open that he found it was something different. My doctors followed protocol, too. It wasn't malpractice, and I can't say I blame them at all. Doctors are human, and my body is weird. Of course, if they'd done a CT to look for my appendix somewhere along the way, they would've caught the kidney tumor, too, but that's another story.

Another problem is that if we don't use mid-level providers or doctors from any but a top-tier school, we'd never cover the medical needs of the country. Most of the time, those practitioners do good work. Occasionally they mess up, true, but most of the time, they cover the basic needs of most patients. I'm too complicated now for one of those, personally, but most patients are just fine with them as long as they get sent to specialists when it's needed.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

33. Hmm. Not really.

You should read "The Medical Malpractice Myth" published by University of Chicago Press. Another book worth reading on the subject is: "Wall of Silence: The Untold Story of the Medical Mistakes that Kill and Injure Millions of Americans."

Of "Wall of Silence," Former First Lady Rosalyn Carter says it is "A call to arms for families who have had loved ones disabled or dying in the pursuit of medical treatment...Well written and researched ...highlights this timely topic in a unique way that will evoke the reader's own experience."

[knitter4democracy]

34. According to Michigan's legal definition of malpractice,

what happened to me was not malpractice. It's that simple. I asked our lawyer in regards to another thing that I still think I should be able to sue for (assaulted by a radiology tech) but can't because of the law.

I respect your sources, but I'm saying that disease and trauma kill more people than medical mistakes.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

35. I'm not disputing your specific case.

Doctors needlessly kill approximately 100,000 people each year. That's unacceptable and unjustifiable. There are far too many incompetent, careless doctors. There needs to be higher standards.

[uppityperson]

42. Where did you get that number from? Link please.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

48. The Medical Malpractice Myth published by University of Chicago Press.

There's an excerpt online @ http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/036480.html

[knitter4democracy]

51. Malpractice insurance costs are high because of the market, too.

That was in Medical Economics and AMNews last year. The skyrocketing premiums are more about insurance companies not making as much in the markets and so keeping up their profits from the premiums instead. My former Ob/Gyn left private practice and went in the Navy when they doubled his insurance in one year to $100K--due in thirty days, mind you (they don't do monthly bills, just an annual that you set aside money for all year to pay). He'd never been sued, either. That was just the cost.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

58. Medical malpractice...

“Medical malpractice insurance premiums are going through the roof. Frivolous litigation and runaway juries will drive doctors out of the profession.” The answer, the medical societies and their insurance companies said, was medical malpractice tort reform—to make it harder for misguided patients and their lawyers to sue.

What the medical societies did not tell my father, or almost anyone else, was that their own research showed that the real problem was too much medical malpractice, not too much litigation. In the mid-1970s the California Hospital and Medical Associations sponsored a study on medical malpractice that they expected would support their tort reform efforts. But, to their surprise and dismay, the study showed that medical malpractice injured tens of thousands of people every year—more than automobile and workplace accidents. The study also showed that, despite the rhetoric, most of the victims did not sue. But almost nobody heard about the study because the associations decided that these facts conflicted with their tort reform message.

...

What do we know?

First, we know from the California study, as confirmed by more recent, better publicized studies, that the real problem is too much medical malpractice, not too much litigation. Most people do not sue, which means that victims—not doctors, hospitals, or liability insurance companies—bear the lion’s share of the costs of medical malpractice.

Second, because of those same studies, we know that the real costs of medical malpractice have little to do with litigation. The real costs of medical malpractice are the lost lives, extra medical expenses, time out of work, and pain and suffering of tens of thousands of people every year, the vast majority of whom do not sue. There is lots of talk about the heavy burden that “defensive medicine” imposes on health costs, but the research shows this is not true.



Link...

[mslawstudent]

30. I could have gone to an elite (though not harvard) law school

I went to ole miss and loved it and graduated with no loans though alot of my classmates had one. (thx to scholarships and parents. Most of the people from olemiss are solid practitioners. Much below that no. Law requires much more of a functioning intellect + common sense. I've seen stupid @#@# from NYU grads. Much rarer though.

People who get below 150's on the LSAT don't need to be lawyers though. The worst law clerk I had was on law review.

I rarely see malpractice I'd relate to not being bright enough. Laziness is much more endemic.

The bottom tier of law schools need to go though or they need to really toughen up the bar exam to about a 50% pass rate.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

31. Yeah. If you get offered $$$

to a tier one law school law, and you want to practice in that region, that's not a bad decision, especially if you finish near the top of your class.

As far as the LSAT, I'd say people who score below 160 don't need to be lawyers.

[likesmountains 52]

46. are MOST doctors "unqualified, incompetent and generally dumb"?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

36. Actually, his parents sound like pretty good parents.

Your husband is now an adult, as he was in medical school. His parents were right to encourage him, and hopefully they inculcated him with humanist values. If not, he'll be a malpractice machine in no time.

Regardless, it is pathetic to be an adult and expect your parents to pay your loans, especially loans for a professional degree.

[knitter4democracy]

37. I did not and do not expect them to pay the loans.

I'm not sure where you got that. The school told them to pay a certain amount every year when he was in med school. They agreed and signed the form and then told Hubby they weren't going to, which meant he had to take out that amount in loans.

Oh, and they would be horrified if he had humanist values. They are fairly strict evangelical Christians. They felt he'd been called by God to be a doctor at the age of three and did everything they could to reinforce that belief during his growing up years. When he decided to take a year off of med school, to search himself and see if this really was the path he needed to be on, his mother threatened suicide (long, horrible story) and his father blamed him for it. Yes, he went back after that year off, but they still go on and on about how he was meant to be a doctor all along. All because his dad didn't get accepted to med school when he was a college student . . .

"Malpractice machine"? That's an offensive term. I'm sorry, but it is. I've been with Hubby ever since he was a pre-med, and I've seen how hard med school, residency, and now private practice really are. I know many here despise doctors and think all are quacks, but I've been on the other side, helping him study and going through his journals and quizzing him on case studies. It's hard for a human to master it all and practice perfectly 100% of the time. It just is. In just fifty years, the amount of information that med students cover went up ten-fold, according to one of Hubby's profs, who had kept his med school materials and measured it against the new curriculum. Same amount of time, ten times the info.

Frankly, Hubby's quite good at it--he saved my life last fall, so I may be a bit biased, but he's saved many lives and prolonged many others. He has a file of thank you notes to show for it. His own residency director commended him at graduation and said he was going to be the best doctor in the town we're in now, and he is. Even the ER docs keep sending him patients on nights he's not supposed to get new patients--they trust him more than the others.

Thank you for thinking I'm pathetic, though. What a nice thought for someone you really don't know and apparently didn't read closely. :eyes:

[AnotherGreenWorld]

38. If it's too hard for him, he should not have become a doctor.

It's immoral to go into a field where, if you do not belong, your mistakes can kill or ruin lives. Perhaps garbage man would've been a better career path.

Also, it's just as pathetic to cry about your husband's parents not paying for the MD as it is if you were crying that they didn't help pay the loans for that MD.

[knitter4democracy]

39. So, getting commendations, saving lives, and being happy is wrong?

I'm not sure what your angle here is. I'm really not. I've tried explaining it, and you deliberately misunderstand my posts. Odd.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

40. ...

In response to the pervasiveness of medical malpractice, you say it's hard being a doctor. Yes, it's also hard being a lawyer, an astronaut, and so on. And people who are not up to it should not choose such careers. In the case of doctors, people have a moral obligation not to. Incompetent doctors, unlike incompetent garbage men, incompetent painters, kill people. And they do it with great frequency and regularity, killing approximately 100,000 people every year, ignoring the millions of lives they ruin.

A killer can save lives and be happy. That doesn't justify the crime.

[angstlessk]

57. Are you a mal practice lawyer, you sure sound like one n/t

[MissB]

41. I'd say you're wasting your time.

:hug: I think your in-laws are asshats for reneging on their end of the bargain, especially since they essentially forced your dh to go to medical school.

I wouldn't waste your time or energy on the other poster.

[knitter4democracy]

52. Thanks for the hug.

:hug: I needed it. I was starting to really get upset. You're right--time for a break.

[uppityperson]

43. angle

that poster has posted elsewhere their distaste for doctors, that generally doctors are doctoring only for money, fame, fortune.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1725368&mesg_id=1725662
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1725368&mesg_id=1726200

[likesmountains 52]

45. Yup, that one definitely has an axe to grind and doesn't mind repeating the same thing ad nauseum.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

47. Ad nauseam*

[knitter4democracy]

50. Ah. That explains a lot.

*snort* My hubby's definitely not in it for the money. He'd make more money doing a lot else or going back to law school or whatever than he'll make in our town. We're more than fine with that.

Fame? Yeah, he's so famous. :eyes: He doesn't publish, so he's pretty much only known in our area, and even then, he can grocery shop just fine most of the time without having patients come up to him and ask questions and need him to call in refills and such.

Fortune? Won't happen. It'll take thirty years to pay off the med school loans, and in that time, we'll also have to send two kids to college. On his pay, we'll be okay, but we won't be extravagant. It's not like he's an interventional radiologist or anything--just an internist in private practice.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

55. I never said anything about fame and fortune. Nice strawman.

He/she is putting words in my mouth.

I did say most doctors are in it for money and the prestige. It doesn't, of course, follow from that fact that they actually are wealthy and prestigious. Many lawyers choose to become lawyers for the same reasons. However, the ones who go to schools like like Thomas Cooley (or even tier one schools out of the top 14) quickly find out that the big law firms that pay the big $$$ will never hire them for obvious reasons.

If your husband couldn't get into an elite medical school, I doubt he could get into an elite law school. So I really doubt he'd make more money as a lawyer. But think what you want.

[uppityperson]

59. "I never said anything about fame & fortune" just money and prestige.

I don't think you understand the definition of a strawman, though you seem to like to throw it out. Why are you even on DU?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. So you're

Much of it low interest, and one of you is a doctor?

[coco77]

8. Does anyone know if...

bush were to sign this bill this year if it would be retroactive for students who already received their awards this year...

[KT2000]

9. What about tv ads

There are ads running on tv for college loans that are so obviously aimed at people who are trying to find money and are willing to use their children to get it.
They brag that the money comes fast and a student needs only a very low class load.
This is so obviously another disaster in the making yet tv stations are running these ads.

[aikoaiko]

12. Small bright spot in GA: have a B average ==> tuition free at every state univ.

Even people who move to GA can get the same deal after they pay for their first year on their own.

Of course there are other expenses, but its a good start.

[AZBlue]

13. What I can't find the answer to is if these changes apply to current loan holders too?

I, like so many, am drowning from student loan debt and am in dire need of some relief. I've tried to research my question but found no answer either way - does anyone else know?

[coco77]

14. Kick...

you may get your answer..

[BlooInBloo]

15. If they're our best and brightest, then we're in a lot of trouble.

EDIT: Clarified subject.

[KillCapitalism]

49. Why not create an alternative to college?

I've always thought that setting up apprenticeship programs for most occupations that last 4 years or so would be an awesome alternative to college. People would be able to earn while they learn and not enter an occupation with tens of thousands of dollars in debt. They could be similar to programs set up by professional trade unions like the IBEW and even include some university classes or credits for apprenticeship experience. This would be a nice alternative in my opinion, but I'm very cynical about the whole college experience anyway. Colleges and Universities seem to be nothing more than diploma mills anymore, big for-profit businesses that just focus on turning out big numbers of graduates. My B.S. degree did nothing for me but qualify me for jobs that pay barely more than minimum wage. I feel like I learned a lot about research, etc., but I don't feel like my I.Q. went up 20 points upon walking across that stage and picking up my diploma.