Bushco bombing Iran - the facts at hand are these: They WANT to, they have the means, and

[scarletwoman]

there is NO ONE to stop them.

I wish we on DU would stop getting bogged down in discussions of whether or not this attack on Iran is going to happen. The fact is, there are alot of really powerful people who WANT it to happen. Who have not stopped working toward making it happen. And who have all the means and power to make it happen any time they damn please -- because NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING TO STOP THEM.

We are watching all the pieces being put into place right before our eyes, pieces being put into place by people whom NO ONE is preventing from doing so.

The point isn't whether it's GOING to happen or not, the point is NO ONE is stopping it from being made possible! And as long as it is possible for them set their plans in motion, at the time of their choosing -- as long as no counterforce exists that would make it NOT possible for them to do so -- then all the arguments about will-they-or-won't-they is just a denial mechanism, imho.

They want to, they have the means, and there is NO ONE to stop them. These are the facts. (And, I might add, they are most certainly evil and monstrous enough to do it, besides.)

I'm tired of arguments over whether bushco will really attack Iran. The reality is they want to and they CAN.

I think the question we should asking ourselves is this: These being the facts: They want to, they have the means, and there is NO ONE to stop them, what can we be doing to try to prevent the slaughter of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of our fellow human beings by the hands of the madmen that rule us?

sw

[Maccagirl]

1. We can "take it to the streets"

It worked so well before the invasion of Iraq. I'm a fed-up 51-year-old and I don't care whether I get flamed for my "cynical" post. Until we elect people with common sense and true humaneness and decency this is the way history will play out.

[scarletwoman]

3. Hey, I hear ya. I'm a fed-up 57-year-old. But I'm not thinking in terms of "take it to the streets"

I know that won't accomplish anything.

I don't have any easy answers -- I just want the question to be framed differently than the endless looping arguments over whether or not "they'll do it".

Reframing the question is just the first step -- it's acknowledging the reality before us as it IS, instead of having debates over whose predictions are most likely to prove correct.

sw

[paparush]

38. If we launch against Iran, then the era of Civil Disobedience MUST come to an end..

and the age of Uncivil Disobedience MUST begin.

[scarletwoman]

48. Maybe it's just that I'm old, but I don't want to riot in the streets. I'd rather quietly create

an alternative lifestyle under the radar of the National Security State, and ride out its inevitable self-immolation in relative peace.

Violence just begets more violence.

sw

[Make7]

2. Then why haven't they already bombed Iran?

 

scarletwoman wrote:

They want to, they have the means, and there is NO ONE to stop them.

So... there is no one to stop them, yet they still haven't attacked.

Wouldn't someone with the desire and ability to do something, with no one to prevent them, already have done what they wanted?

- Make7

[scarletwoman]

5. When you know you can do something, you can decide on the timing.

There has been a long ongoing process of putting the pieces in place for this. There have been cock-ups (like the attack on Lebanon that ended quite differently than they expected) and unforseen developments (like the worsening insurgency in Iraq over the past 2 years).

And they've had to back off the nuclear causis belli to some extent, because the facts just clearly are not on their side. So they had to start cranking out the "Iranians are killing our troops" propaganda, and have been steadily building it up for the past year.

In the meantime, this past January they deployed Patriot anti-ballistic missile installations to our "allies" in the region (The UAE, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia) and in the Green Zone. There's no other reason for anti-ballistic capabilities other than defense against ballistic missiles, and Iran is the only conceivable source for such missiles.

And the only reason Iran would deploy their missiles is if they are attacked.

The Dem takeover of Congress in 2006 also slowed them down a little, but now that the Dems have rolled over so nicely, it's one less impediment.

It's really just down the timing now. And for that they will be looking first of all at domestic political advantage. Remember, this is the "Long War", and they've been playing a long game.

sw

[Wiley50]

8. Thanks! Great Re-Frame Job. Other Facts follow from this:

We are truly powerless

It sucks but is true.

No Protest, No Impotent congress can stop them

Only some sort of outside intervention by covert activites

by powerful nation states would have any hope to now.

And if it happens, there is gonna be blowback

Probably catastrophic, may mean the end of the USA as we know it

and, at this point, as bad as it's really gotten here

That might not be a bad thing.

Maybe what rises from the ashes might actually have a chance of being a Real Democracy

I'm trying to figure out what to to to survive until then

[scarletwoman]

10. "Maybe what rises from the ashes might actually have a chance of being a Real Democracy"

Who knows? I wish we wouldn't have to go through a time of ashes, but I don't see any other way this is all going to end up -- a destroyed Constitution, economic meltdown, a world full of really angry people and alot of pain and bloodshed.

Learn as many survival skills as you can, trim down your lifestyle, make local connections for food and energy. Lay the groundwork for building a different and better system now while we still have relative freedom of action.

Rough times ahead...

sw

[bdamomma]

21. and a (excuse my language) fucking little man that no one can stop

sad very sad, that we the people cannot stop this maniac.

[ronnie624]

24. Your logic is impeccable, of course.

Numerous members of the Bush administration have stated repeatedly, that their "war on terror" will be a decades-long campaign. The policies, actions and public utterances of the administration, along with the legislation enacted by Congress over the years - including The USA Patriot Act, The Domestic Security Enhancement Act and The Military Commissions Act - leave no doubt in my mind about the direction our government is taking us.

Many in powerful positions within our government are deliberately seeking war and chaos in the Middle East as a means of reshaping the political landscape there, and controlling the flow and profits of the hydrocarbons from the region. Such a strategy would, of course, include Iran.

I believe Iran will be attacked before this administration leaves office, and that a military crackdown awaits us in our own country.

[scarletwoman]

37. Thanks! I really appreciate that you "get" my point! (nt)

[daninthemoon]

13. I'm thinking Patreus's report will have a bit to say about Iran's

supposed arming of the "insurgency". They've already been singing tune, and he will bring it home.

[scarletwoman]

14. Oh you betcha. "The surge would have worked except for Iran..." (nt)

[Lars39]

20. They "don't roll a new product out in August".

[The Count]

26. You don't launch a new product before Labor Day" Andrew Card Wait for ratcheting

propaganda in the weeks to come. Just go beck to the articles in the times leading to the Iraq war - they'll answer all your questions.

[Make7]

30. The long awaited US military attack on Iran is now on track ...

 

WASHINGTON DC, -- The long awaited US military attack on Iran is now on track for the first week of April [2007], specifically for 4 am on April 6, the Good Friday opening of Easter weekend, writes the well-known Russian journalist Andrei Uglanov in the Moscow weekly “Argumenty Nedeli.” Uglanov cites Russian military experts close to the Russian General Staff for his account.

The attack is slated to last for 12 hours, according to Uglanov, from 4 am until 4 pm local time. Friday is the sabbath in Iran. In the course of the attack, code named Operation Bite, about 20 targets are marked for bombing; the list includes uranium enrichment facilities, research centers, and laboratories.

http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=166&a=1478

The well-informed Arab Times in Kuwait says that Bush will attack Iran before the end of April. [2007]

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2007-02/03pilger.cfm

I guess the stories about an attack on Iran are starting to remind me of The Boy Who Cried Wolf a little too much.

I can't help but wonder what stopped them from attacking when the other numerous predictions were made in the past. Perhaps nothing...

- Make7

[scarletwoman]

36. You're misreading my post. I am merely pointing out that they have the intent, the capability, and

no effective opposition. I believe these are salient facts that it would behoove us to recognize.

I don't know WHEN it's going to happen, I only know it CAN happen -- if this is what they decide to do. Isn't that bad enough to be cause for concern?

And excuse me if I don't fall all over myself to debunk your Russian and Arabic sources. The best you could do?

Yes, people like Sy Hersh & others have been sounding the alarm about bushco attacking Iran for years. It's perfectly understandable, since the PLANS and INTENT to attack Iran have been around for years. The first fact does not cancel out the second fact.

As I have posted elsewhere in this thread, once you have all your ducks in a row, you can afford to wait for the most seemingly opportune time to fire the starting gun.

There are several obvious reasons that the bombing of Iran hasn't happened yet:

~ By early-to-mid-2005 it was apparent that the Iraq insurgency was amounting to quite a bit more than "a few deadenders". Even ideologically-besotted war criminals have to take facts on the ground into account once in awhile. So, even though the PNAC/neocon timetable for "regime change" in Iran hoped to get the action going in 2005, it turned out to not be feasible.

~ The July 2006 attack on Hizbullah in Lebanon. You honestly expected to bring Hizbullah to heel and come out with a causis belli to move forward with military action against BOTH Syria and Iran. Unfortunately for your grandiose plans, the attack on Lebanon utterly appalled most of the civilized world (especially the month-long delay in enforcing a ceasefire when it was already abundantly clear that hundreds of innocent civilians were being slaughtered). Even worse, it exposed the weakness of the IDF and the strength of Lebanon's indigenous resistance movement.

~ The Democratic Party victories in the 2006 election. You honestly expected that your vision of a permanent GOP majority would be made manifest. Instead, you had to step back and re-assess your strategy. This messed up your Iran regime change timetable again.

~ Post 2006 elections: Iraq, again. Sectarian violence worsening through late 2006 and early 2007. Also came the Iraq Study Group, counselling diplomatic engagement with Iran, coupled with the reluctance of the UN Security Council to express any great urgency in regard to "dealing with" Iran. You force a couple of strongly-worded sanctions resolutions through the UNSC, but you largely fail in your attempt to whip up a suitable degree of outrage and alarm in the international community over Iran's nuclear energy program. (You wanna talk about "crying wolf"? How much credibility do you think the rest of world gives bushco when they start jumping up and down and flailing their arms over Iran after the Iraq/WMD fiasco?)

~ Late 2006/early 2007: The "Surge". Forced by circumstances to do something about the deterioration of the Iraq project (besides "stay the course"), this was NOT a good time to try to change the subject; too many people were howling about what was happening in Iraq. You can't sell Iran when you are so obviously fucking up Iraq and everybody is on your case about it.

~ Early 2007 again: You start to do your "surge" thing in Iraq -- and in the meantime you've deployed Patriot anti-missile installations in Kuwait and the UAE (Saudi Arabia & Israel already have them), and in the Green Zone. (I'm assuming you remember when the Saudis basically "summoned" Cheney to meet with their big guns -- the message was; if you're thinking about fucking with Iran, you'd damn well better protect your friends in the region.)

~ Spring 2007: It has become apparent that your attempts to "cry wolf" over Iran's purported nukes are not gaining much purchase in the international community. The IAEA isn't going to play ball with you, and the rest of the world trusts them a HELL of alot more than they trust YOU!

~ Spring through summer 2007: If Iran nukes aren't going to cut it, propaganda-wise, time to rev up the "Iranians are killing U.S. soldiers in Iraq" propaganda. Throw the blame at Iran for everything from the Taliban to Al Qaeda to the Iraq insurgency (Shiite AND Sunni!) and see what sticks.

~ Summer 2007: Good news! It's now become obvious that the Democratic majority in Congress is absolutely no threat at all! Not only have they given you everything you wanted in funding the Iraq war AND domestic surveillance, they have passed a 97-0 amendment in the Senate that essentially hands you your causis belli on a platter. How fortuituous that they are willing to swallow all your Iran/IED propaganda without demur! You have now been given the perfect out: you don't have to consult with Congress at ALL in order to initiate military action against Iran, because by the wording of the Lieberman amendment, it's already covered under the 2002 IRW.

~ August 2007: But just to REALLY cover your bases, you designate Iran's Revolutionary Guard as a "terrorist organization". THIS gets you covered under the 2001 AUMF. You have now guranteed that you have absolutely NO obligation to consult with Congress before you initiate military action against Iran.

What I'm saying is that there are basically NO obstacles in the way of Bushco fulfilling their fantasy of "regime change" in Iran. Do you REALLY want to argue that they WON'T do it while they still have the intention and the means and no one able to stop them?

sw

[Kip Humphrey]

4. Would you protest in the streets against the Iranium War BEFORE Cheney/Bush start it or only AFTER ?

[scarletwoman]

6. Before, of course! But I honestly don't think anything short of a general strike would have any

impact. And there's just simply not enough people who even understand what these criminal madmen are really up to.

I don't have any answers, I just want people to stop wasting their energy arguing that it CAN'T happen or it WON'T happen.

It's already happening. All the pieces are being relentlessly put into place, and have been for some time. We've already had special forces operating inside Iran for years, the propaganda operation is in full swing, and Congress has already bought in on the whole demonization of Iran thing -- 97 Senators voted to pass the Lieberman amendment in July that basically states that Iran is already at war with US!

I don't know if there's any way to stop them bombing Iran, I just think at the very least people need to understand how very little stands in the way of it happening.

sw

[Wiley50]

7. Kip, I Love You (you know that) But if 10 Million people in the streets around the world

didn't stop Iraq from happening, What makes you think we would have any effect now?

We are truly powerless at this point

I accept that as reality.

Shitty as it is

I'm trying to come up with some plan to survive the blowback.

And, as traitorious as it seems, I'm actually hoping

that, Putin maybe, has had enough of American imperialism

and has plans in place to decapitate this monster.

Even the "Good Germans" couldn't have gotten out from under Hitler

without outside intervention

[Jim__]

9. Before the Iraq war,people marched peacefully. That didn't work.

If enough people participated in large scale civil disobedience, it might work. It beats the hell out of sitting around and doing nothing.

[bdamomma]

23. large scale civil disobedience that would catch their attention

because we have been non existent to this thuggish regime anyway, they except the American people to roll over on this invasion also, this pre emptive shit must end, I do not think Russia or China will sit back on this one.

[paparush]

40. If we launch against Iran, the time for being Civil is OVER.

We would have given peace a chance....If we launch against Iran, we the people, must consider other alternatives to peaceful demonstration.

[daninthemoon]

19. I keep trying not to accept your analogy, but every day I feel more

and more like this thing has gone beyond "good Americans" ability to stop it. We have torture camps, we are invading sovereign nations in wars of our aggression, somehow this bafoon has a personality cult, elections haven't seemed to matter (last two pres wre fixed, and new democrat congress is still rubber stamping and even giving him more powers). He is going to bomb Iran. No gentle nudge back toward rationality will help this government gone mad.

[blues90]

11. I have no answers at all . But the plans are all out there .

I know protests are not going to do it , even a general strike may not .

I don't know how much more ashamed I can be as an american from what we have already done and are about to do .

we don't have any allies out there that are willing to help us out and I don't know why they would .

Certainly if we knew the day arrived when the attack happens we can protest out of outrage and just to get the anger out even if it's only on a personal level this would be better than nothing at all .

The blowback will be horrific , since in many ways this is no longer america then I suppose some can hope for a direct hit and be vaporized , if the end result is anything like the movies of nuclear attacks then I'll pass on that end if you don't mind .

It's all a joke for some and there are many who don't have a clue even after what happened to Iraq . To those out there who claim to be military experts who say all is normal , got any ideas since you are in the know ?

[scarletwoman]

12. Thanks for your post. It's an awful prospect, isn't it? (nt)

[blues90]

15. You're welcome and , yes it is

[scarletwoman]

16. Pat Lang writes: "Has the train left the station?"

Has the train left the station?

"One thing that we agreed on is that the DPRK will provide a full declaration of all of their nuclear programs and will disable their nuclear programs by the end of this year, 2007," Hill told reporters, using the initials for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Hill said the declaration will also include uranium enrichment programs, which the United States fears could be used to make nuclear weapons.

Yahoo News

Most old North Korea hands have been of the opinion that the country was determined to build a war fighting capability with which to intimidate and dominate its neighbors.

A minority believed that this was not so and that the Korean program was largely designed as a bargaining chip in a larger diplomatic game. Looks like the second group were correct.

This should be an lesson to those who insist that diplomatic means will not be effective in dealing with Iran.

It should be a lesson but it will not be a lesson. The reason for that is that the lesson is not wanted.

In November or December of 2002, I took part in a town meeting in Lexington, Virginia on the subject of whether or not there would be war with Iraq. General Zinni and the dean of VMI were the other panelists. In that college town the audience was overwhelmingly anti-war.

At one point a panelist remarked that the discussion of this issue was enlightening but unproductive because on the issue, "the train had left the station."

I fear that a similar train has left the same station. My estimated time of arrival is...

pl
02 September 2007

[scarletwoman]

17. a kick before bed...

[scarletwoman]

18. ...

[lonestarnot]

22. Yes they can.

[slipslidingaway]

25. kick! Great point....

"The point isn't whether it's GOING to happen or not, the point is NO ONE is stopping it from being made possible!"

As others have said massive protests before invading Iraq had no effect. Other than people supporting a candidate who is not marching to the administration's war drums and who has called for the impeachment of Cheney, I do not have any suggestions. This is one of the major reasons I am supporting Kucinich.


http://www.kucinichforcongress.com/floor_speeches/iran_iran28sep.php

Iran: Another Iraq WMD Hoax

"...However, this Administration is trying to create an international crisis by inflating Iran's nuclear development into another Iraq WMD hoax. There they go again.

"Today, the House will consider a bill which will give the Administration a pass on covert activities it has already undertaken in Iran to attempt to destabilize the government. Additionally, today's bill will enable another Rendon-type propaganda machine to feed the US media a steady stream of lies, all to set the stage for a war against Iran.

"Think about it: this, without a single hearing on Iran in this Congress. Think about it: this, while the State Department and DOD are ducking even classified briefings.

"There is a Chinese proverb that says: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Will Congress be fooled again into supporting still another war against still another nation, which is not an imminent threat and which has no intention nor capability of attacking the United States?"

[The Magistrate]

27. A Most Sensible Comment, Ma'am

[scarletwoman]

33. Thank you, sir! I'm pleased that you think so.

[The Magistrate]

34. It Is, In My View, Ma'am

Better to concentrate on building vocal opposition to the course, to stiffen the courage of the Congress, then to make the sort of over-blown predictions that have been so common, and which have all come false. False predictions only serve to dissipate worry, over time, and provide a species of cover for the actions, when all is said and done.

For the danger is very real, since there is no doubt the leading circles in the administration devoutly desire to attack Iran, and are inclined to under-rate and ignore practical obstacles to a course they are wedded to in spirit.

[scarletwoman]

43. Thank you for understanding what I was endeavoring to convey. Much appreciated!

:loveya:
sw

[The Magistrate]

45. My Pleasure, Ma'am

[Gregorian]

28. The Republicans would also have to protest. And then some.

Because we did hit the streets. It didn't stop the war. And in fact, the whole world did. Which leads me to believe that even if Republicans couldn't stand the thought of unborn babies being killed by Bush's bombs, he still might not stop.

Impeachment may not even do it. He'd just have a terror attack staged, and then go his merry way. I know I'm being cynical beyond what I normally am. But this man's gang is insane. And I believe it's the PNAC group who are intent upon doing this come hell or high water.

Now, they may not attack Iran for a number of real reasons. Like troops. Money. Ammunition. But there are other things bigger than "the people" that may also stop the war. Or start world war 3. China. Russia. Iran probably won't do it. But they might. I'm guessing here. I'm not a historian, nor do I know foreign information that enables me to make educated statements. But what else is there?

I just don't think there is anything WE can do. And I'm not saying we won't try. Of course we will. But there will be a lot more resistance to it with the new "laws" he has enacted.

I know someone who lives in Tehran. I hate the thought of being 80 years old and having some prick like Bush and his friends threatening my life.

[scarletwoman]

39. I wish I knew a way to forestall this, but I really can't think of any.

Aside from Dennis Kucinich, we have essentially NO ONE in DC on our side. Instead, we have elected representatives -- allegedly on "our" side -- who have presented absolutely NO impediment whatsoever to bushco's "Long War".

I don't know what to do when it turns out my government is a dictatorship run by war criminals -- I grew up thinking that my country was something better, I just wasn't prepared for this.

:(
sw

[Gregorian]

46. I still have hope.

Things like this are cyclical. And we're human.

We've survived "Bushes" throughout history. But I know what you mean. I also grew up with integrity, and community and empathy. Boy, was I lucky. I was shielded from the lies of conservatism until very recently. I knew it existed. But it was elsewhere.

Well, I've posted this once before. And it's probably not going to solve much of anything. But it's an example of the other side of humanity. Some music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1cQ4n0YJj8

[windoe]

29. Are Americans completely powerless

Before the Iraq invasion we: Petitioned congress, called our Reps and Senators and White House, and had licensed demonstrations.
We were not allowed voices on any mainstream TV, newspapers or radio. The real 'left ' was left out of debates.
Virtually the rest of the world was against this invasion
Fear mongering techiniques still worked at that time

What is different this time?
Investigations exposing rampant corruption
Articles of impeachment
Elections will be next year, reps want to be reelected
Loss of confidence in Washington by Americans, fear mongering has less effect, 60% of people do not believe 911 myth
There is more diversity of opinion in media, especially by 08 candidates
The world is against WWIII

We can still petition reps and senators, call their offices, and have licensed demonstrations, gather a list of reps names who are against invasion
We can also network with Veterans groups, military brass against this war (very important, like Wes Clark), candidates running in 08 election, religious groups, and Republicans who are also against this war (VERY important!)
A media blitz, expose this plan, write newspapers, call radio stations, and TV stations

I believe there has been a noticeable shift in popular opinion since 03. I reserve hope that the honest reps and senators, the honest people in the intelligence community (and there really are many) do not want this to happen.

I am comforted to have some sort of plan so I can focus on what CAN be done, so if sh*t hits the fan, I am not left drooling and shivering.
No, we are not powerless. This is the most important thing to remember. We can be the UNITED States again.

[scarletwoman]

42. If the "honest reps and senators" wanted to stop this, they would not have voted

for the Lieberman amendment in the Senate on July 11, 97-0. And prior to that, the June 21, 2007 House resolution "Calling on the United Nations Security Council to charge Iranian leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with violating the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide..."

Are these the actions of legislators determined to STOP bushco from attacking Iran?

They don't care what we think. Really. They don't.

sw

[Phrogman]

31. If US bombs Iran, China dumps the dollar, its that simple

But the question is, is that part of the plan?

[paparush]

41. DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!!!

IS that part of the plan...the last great swipe to gut the middle class and shake off the nouveau rich. To create a state in which only the ultra rich can survive.

[scarletwoman]

44. I'm sorry, but that's not going to happen. China's ecomony is WAY too intertwined with ours.

If they dump their dollars, THEY lose. They know it, we know it. China is not going to make any sudden moves to overthrow the status quo. They will sit and observe, and make their decisions based solely on their self-interest, just as any state will do.

No one is going to go rushing in to stand up against the U.S. if we attack Iran. No one is going to rush to Iran's rescue. No one is going to do anything to take down the U.S. economy while everyone else's economy is still so intricately tied to ours, it would be economic suicide for most countries in the world, especially China.

This is not to say that the rest of the world isn't even now furiously trying to figure out how to survive our inevitable collapse, but you can be sure that there is NO ONE who is eager to hurry it along.

sw

[Phrogman]

47. A very dangerous assumption...

while the US has engaged in a failing militaristic endeavor, the Chinese have been practicing soft diplomacy internationally.

Their manufactured products are being sold worldwide now, lots of customers buying lots of stuff.

China would recover from a dump of the dollar, the USA would not.

[leftchick]

32. some ramifications the fucktards in congress should consider

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1724235

:(

[KAT119]

35. China 'might' be an ouside deterrant (for awhile) to WW3....

ALL of US military computer chips--for jets,missles,satellites, nukes-every single system imaginable have been manufatured by CHINA!!

There is US military concern that all chips--so embedded in the systems, that they cannot be removed w/o complete system destruction, have in place a back door--or frequency specific way for China's advanced EMF pulse technology to blink them all OFF.

China did this most effectively last year when N. Korea launched a nuke capable missile, and US was among the last to know, since China pulsed a specific frequency to our spy satellite over NK that blinked it out during the NK launch!

Today on www.rawstory.com--there was a story of China's People's Liberation Army(PLA) as the source for a most effective Pentagon computer hacking last June, that interferred most completely w/ the computer systems for war!.

Stay tuned....