This may be really offensive, but I'm going to ask....

[frustrated_lefty]

Look, please, don't take offense, I don't mean any, and this has sat in the back of my mind for close to 20 years. My grandparents referred to African Americans as negras. I've heard similar terms used in North Carolina, where a butcher pointed to the "big, buck negra out back." Using those words caused one of the only real fights I've had with my grandparents. My grandmother was confused at why I was being so mean. I think, to her, it was just a way of indicating somebody was colored? I hope so....she was a generous lady with a good heart. I think it's really rude terminology. What do you guys think, and what is your take on it? Again, I apologize if this is rude in anyway, it's just something I've been trying to wrap my head around for a long time.

[Duer 157099]

1. Did you say "colored"?

:hide:

[Kajsa]

55. Then you ask the question,

Why hasn't the NAACP changed its name?

[Scatterheart]

2. I think it's disgusting.

My father used to call African American men "big, buck negra"s. No wonder I don't speak to him anymore >:(

[MichaelHarris]

3. My

grandparents used the same words and were racist as hell. When they died I didn't go to their funerals, they were very hateful people. My guess is your Grandparents had racist feelings also, why would they feel the need to label black people?

[frustrated_lefty]

5. Mine were pretty gentle spirits

They were descended from strong Native American lines. They worked the land for the food they ate. And they treated all people the same. That's part of why I'm confused about the words they chose to use.

[MichaelHarris]

10. I guess

it really depends at what point in history they used the "names". My grandparents lived long after the civil rights movement and knew the words they used were wrong and hateful.

[asthmaticeog]

29. Why would they feel the need to label WHAT people?

[wtmusic]

4. You mean they didn't refer to them as African-Americans?

My GPs referred to them as "coloreds", but I never heard them say a derogatory thing about them. Am I to assume they were racist, or maybe ignorant and using the term they were taught?

[frustrated_lefty]

9. You know, wtmusic....

thank you for perspective. :)

[MichaelHarris]

16. see

post 14

[Colorado Progressive]

6. My granny says worse. But I still love her. She is 96

and clueless. That was not inappropriate speak back then, apparently. I know my granny has some issues but also loves her family and is not evil, just misguided. I wish her peace, and rebirth as a black person.

[Nostradammit]

7. Is this racial epithet night at DU?

For Christ's sake.

:wtf:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1722134

[hlthe2b]

27. seems so...

:shrug:


An unfortunate coincidence or....?

[Nostradammit]

33. ...? indeed

and unfortunate any way you slice it.

[canetoad]

51. So we see how you deal

with the humble, polite people who are genuinely attempting to find some understanding. What do you say to the bastards?

[Nostradammit]

52. I don't normally converse with them

[hlthe2b]

56. pardon the interjection, please...

But, I'm guessing that Nostradammit may be more concerned (as was I) over the second thread (link appears in his initial posting). That second thread was finally (and thankfully) locked early this morning.

Posters on this thread, by contrast, appear to be trying to discuss the issue in a polite and respectful manner. Take a look at the other for the contrast.

[bluestateguy]

8. My grandmother (b.1910) used to say "colored"

And I never knew her to be racist in any way, shape or form. She always treated everyone with respect and courtesy. She never generalized about people on the basis of race. We all knew it was outdated to use the term "colored", but we let it go when she said it because that terminology was considered respectful and polite during my grandmother's time.

She died 9 years ago of Alzheimer's.

[MichaelHarris]

14. "colored"

is one of those gray areas. It was once acceptable I think. The "N" words were never acceptable. I think when we look back at our elders and see which used "colored" and which used the "N" words it's easy to see who was a racist.

[and-justice-for-all]

30. So, what is the perspective when people call each other

the 'N' word? is that acceptable? it is done freely, openly and in music...
why is ok for one side and not the other?

[and-justice-for-all]

31. Last I looked we are all 'colored'...

More then one color in the crayon box. Various shades and tones, quite a variety I would say.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Of course it is. Everybody knows it. And white folks try to excuse it...

... by saying "they're old" or some such bullshit. The truth is: they're old bigots.

Rinse, repeat.

[hfojvt]

28. aren't there more offensive words which are just as old?

Already a few years ago, my niece, who has had close contact with probably zero black people, informed me that "'African Americans don't like to be called 'black people'". So, I too, am an old bigot, just like James Brown.

[BlooInBloo]

53. ROFL! James Brown the bigot. 'Nuff said.

[frustrated_lefty]

39. Maybe my grandparent were bigots....

It makes me sad to think that might be true. Apologies aside, though, maybe it is true? That really sucks to discover.

[BlooInBloo]

54. What sucks is that it has to be discovered, when it could with all propriety be ASSUMED.

[hfojvt]

12. sounds like another way to say 'negro'

which is not the same as the n-word, although it is now not generally used or accepted. I think it just makes them old or old-fashioned, not necessarily racist. It depends more upon how they treat people than on terms they use.

But remember I am just a white boy talking. I cannot claim to speak for any black people.

I am even less sure about the term 'buck' though. To me, it makes it sound like you think you are talking about an animal, rather than a human being. Do the same people refer to white males as 'bucks'?

[amitten]

22. I've heard the term "young buck" used in reference to young

men of all different races...

But who knows, in this instance it might have been a sort of slur.

[TheMadMonk]

36. Buck means "breeder" IIRC. It's a livestock term.

[hfojvt]

45. aha, my 1962 unabridged dictionary says of 'buck'

4. often disparaging - a male American Indian or Negro

[TheMadMonk]

61. Slave livestock.

[Sanctified]

13. Negras? That's nothing you should have heard what my grandparents called blacks.

And please don't call people colored, they are either black, white, red, yellow or brown. They don't come in purple, blue or orange.

[amitten]

18. I kinda look a little orange when I've been eating too many

carrots...

:D

[Lucinda]

24. You obviously dont live in Spray Tanville

Whole lotta orange people live there ;)

[JDPriestly]

25. The language usage has changed.

I first heard "African-American" and "Black" in the 60s. Before that the terms that showed respect were "Negro," and "colored." Remember, what does NAACP stand for? National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Those are old terms used by white people who wanted to be respectful, tolerant and inclusive.

[Sanctified]

35. It's cool my grandmother on my mothers side still says colored but I tell her the same shit. n/t

[amitten]

15. Maybe "Negra" was really "Negro" but with an accent...?

Many years ago, Negro was an acceptable and inoffensive term for someone African-American.

I hope it wasn't meant in a racist way, but I don't know.

[yurbud]

19. maybe there were some Bushies working out back and she meant Negra-ponte

[spoony]

49. Thank you for that

:D It helps to have a laugh!

edit: "thank you" not "that you"

[frustrated_lefty]

40. It was "Negra"

I don't think they were racist. They were churchgoing folk, and they helped anyone who needed a hand, really, just anyone. I think they were good people, but that one word just sits in my craw.

[yurbud]

17. one side of my family was extremely racist when I was a kid, but mellowed when I got older

but only in behavior, not language. They still threw around the N word, but when my aunt dated a black guy, my grandma knew she was doing it to get her goat but just thought it was funny and he was a nice guy.

[Truthiness Inspector]

20. You sound like you just crawled out of a cave

Not your ancestors, but you, having internet access.

[Sanctified]

23. Why is that?

Just wondering because I don't see anywhere in the post that says to me crawling out of a cave.

[Catherine Vincent]

21. She may have had a good heart but she was a bigot too old to change.

I am glad you let your grandparents know that you didn't want to hear them talk that way.

[canetoad]

26. I think you need to accept the time and place

people came from and look more to what is in their hearts.

Race has not been the issue in Australia that it was in USA. My mother still refers to Koories as Abos. She honestly does not see why it is offensive. Older people still refer to Greeks, Italians as Wogs. I don't like it, I can't do it, but if they do no harm, then I don't see any lasting benefits arising out of chastising them for their unwise use of words. They will die out soon and their unfortunately ingrained racial terms with them.

It's a hard one, frustrated_lefty. Part of us recoils from names and descriptions that we, in our time, find repugnant. It was different when these people grew up and learned their habits. I will make a point of seperating them from hard-core racists. I believe we are talking about the people who never wished any harm on anyone, whatever colour they may be. Just perhaps couch it 'indelicately' if we were to use modern terms, 'offensively' if we are hard-line.

At the age of 16 I had a part time job, this was in 1970. A workmate was a Thursday Islander, the blackest of the black. I asked my mother if she could come home for Xmas dinner, as she was on her own. It didn't occur to me to say she was black. Her name was Grace, thats all the family needed to know. When she arrived, the jaw-drop was almost noticable, but she was made welcome and had a great time. I believe that was the very first time my parents broke bread with a black person.

Some old dogs learn new tricks, some don't. All OK with me as long as they don't bite!

[frustrated_lefty]

41. Thanks for the nice insight, Caintoad!

And thank you for a good story. :)

I hope you're right, that some terms will just fade away with time.

[canetoad]

44. Yr welcome.

Your OP give us something to think about.

I feel it's best to save your outrage for things you can change tomorrow, your principles for things you expect to change in your lifetime.

[onewholaughsatfools]

32. times have changed

having grown up in the south, it was at one point and time acceptable to use that word to refer to people of color, then is became unacceptable and the new word was colored, then that became unacceptable and African America was acceptable, etc, etc. One day I hope we just get to the point and be able to get past all of this .....and just be people who share this planet that seems to only be getting smaller and I got older.....Blessings

[Omphaloskepsis]

34. The terminology doesn't bother me as much as the context.

My mom has said to me, "I walked past a African-American on the way home and I hid my purse."

[Dark]

37. You're not going to change them.

Personally, I simply avoid talking about such issues (my grandma's the same way).

You only have a few years left with your grandparents. Don't waste them fighting.

[snot]

38. The confusng thing about words is

that they are only a clue -- not irrefutable evidence -- as to the intention behind them.

What was meant matters, or should matter, more than the words themselves, really.

And what was meant implicates the totality of the speaker's time and psyche (hence the importance of context).

None of our words are ever wholly innocent or wholly corrupt.

[frustrated_lefty]

42. I just wanted to thank those of you who have commented,

angry or other. I sincerely apologize if anyone got their feelings hurt. Hearing from each of you was educational for me, so thank you.

[baby_mouse]

43. *I* don't think "you're" being rude to *me* or anyone else on this board.

But a black person, overhearing your granny, might think *she* was being rude.

I'm sure your gran bore no particular ill-will towards black people in general but would a black person know this? And, given that the word has been used in a highly offensive and destructive manner in th past, could you really blame a black person for at least wanting to know which side of the fence she was on? It's entirely possible that she has a hundred black friends who all call each other "negra". Would someone who doesn't know your granny know this?

I'm extrapolating from the way people use the word "gay", "negra" and "nigger" seem to be a good deal more offensive in the States than they are here in Scotland, where you never hear the word because there are hardly any black people anyway.

I think it's worth asking why she didn't just say: "There's a guy out back", right? I'm sure your gran's heart was in the right place, but if she's going to use a word for them that inescapably signals their skin colour as a matter of course, then there's SOMETHING going on. Given the way black people in the States have been treated in the past, it's not unreasonable for them to want to know what it is, even if your gran was basically non-racist.

That's my take, at least. I'm sure any number of black posters to DU could be a good deal more eloquent and knowledgable on the subject...

[frustrated_lefty]

46. You're right.

It was a very emotional bowl of soup, trying to speak with her. Look, there wasn't a mean bone in her body, ok, so please don't envision this woman as the KKK incarnate. She just wasn't. But, her choice of words, and the thinking it implies, bothers me. And, I guess, in fairness, it deserves some condemnation. I feel guilty and ashamed about that. Good intentions pave the way to hell and all that stuff.

[canetoad]

48. I try to imagine life in USA

but I can't. I also am Scottish, but have lived in oz since 1965. Primary school was in England, where the only black person we saw were the 'Pakis' who, in retrospect must have been Sikhs, as they all wore immaculately wound turbans, who came door -to-door eavery three months selling brushes.

No one can argue that was my experience. No one can argue that the only word I had, at the age of 10 for black people was 'Paki'.
40 Years later I know different.

In Bellshill, the relatives spoke in hushed terms when someone married a CATHOLIC (all flute players, my mob lol). We laugh about it in the family now, but some things my mother & even Dad (rip) never got over - WW2 enemies. You can't quizz your granny on why she said something. For starters, she'd skelp yer arse, secondly she'd look at you as it you'd announced you were English.

Ye canna thow yer grannie oot a twinty storey flats. Twinty thoosand hungry wains'll testifie ta that

[Jim Lane]

47. I wouldn't assume your grandparents were racist

I'm with the DUers who call for assessing the comments in context, the context being what their generation grew up with. Racists and nonracists would use the word "Negro", which, with a southern accent, could come out as "negra".

I remember reading that, at one point, the term "black" (as applied to people) was considered offensive. Then there was a period during which it was hardly used at all. Then it came into widespread use as a polite term. In a quick check, I haven't been able to verify that, but it seems plausible to me.

On the other hand, even if your grandparents meant it innocently, I don't think you were being "mean" to bring it up. I assume you simply let them know that times had changed and that the term was no longer considered inoffensive.

[yy4me]

50. I understand the question here but not some of the answers.

I would presume that the grandparents were born in the 20's 30's or 40's. At that time, the word 'black' was not used to refer to anyone. Common use of the "black" word seemed to evolve during the 60's and 70's. The same with the use of 'African American'. I believe this became the accepted way to refer to black people during the peak of the career of Dr. Martin Luther King. As a kid, in our home, (I'm 65), we were taught to refer to people of color as Negro's or 'colored people. My folks were strict as heck and I would have been whacked if I ever said a derogatory thing toward people. Jewish people were Jewish, Italians were Italian, Polish people were....you get my idea.

There has to be some time frame and location given to the change and use of language. What was common and polite years ago may not be today. This is not because everyone is not a bigot but because language changes and sometimes we old folks don't keep up. On the other hand, there will always be those who abuse it.

[HughMoran]

57. My grandparents were not so nice as that

They both (Grandfathers) used the "N" word in the most derogatory way. It was difficult for my parents who were extremely unprejudiced. At least my mother's father got a lesson in humility before he died. He was "jumped" by a white man who was attempting to rob him. A black man came to his rescue and saved him. I am fairly certain that he didn't use the "N" word after that.

[supernova]

58. Because they were racist

My grandmother was a nice person too, but she did use the word "colored." I did not hear her use the N word, though it's possible. I got the impression growing up though, at least in my family that the N word was akin to cussing, so it wasn't used.

It's possible to be a good person to your family and still be racist to other people. A lot of it with the old folks is ignorance. They simply didn't know any other way of decribing or talking about other people, doubly true if they didn't have much education. That's a big reason why the civil rights movement was so important. In order to bring about civil change, you have to develop new language for that change. And it's very difficult for some people.

[rucky]

59. Not to dismiss it,

but it is a generational thing.

I'm of the position that offensive language is all in the context. If someone says something that offends them, they should politely correct them. If the response to that correction isn't respectful, then you know what the subtext was disrespectful in the first place.

But if you're offended, your chances of getting a disrespectful reaction to your response also depends on how you express yourself. Even though our civility has really broken down in our culture (if it was ever there), the best chance we have at a civilized society is to give people the benefit of the doubt when you confront them.

[NMMNG]

60. My take on it?

Nobody in this century should have to ask.