DU in the dumper

[frogcycle]

Whether dogfighting, toilet trolling, or vitriolic attacks on dem candidates, the noise level has gotten so bad that it is damned hard to find a reasoned, thoughtful discussion on ANYTHING any more.

Somebody posts something inflammatory; tons of people chime in saying "right on!" or "bullshit!"
and then eventually everyone gets tired of it and it drifts away.

It is just John Madden in a Miller Lite commercial, starting a fight over "tastes great" "less filling"

What really frosts me is that at one point I actually thought DU was populated largely with serious, thinking people who, well, wanted to save our country from the abyss it is sinking into at the behest of the big business cabal. Lately it seems like a damned kindergarten with kids in the sandbox fighting over toys, throwing sand in each other's eyes.

The simpleminded allegiance to one's candidate at the expense of all others is like me and college football. No, wait, its worse. I am a Tennessee grad; I pull for the Vols, love to hate Florida and Alabama and Georgia and the other eight SEC teams on game day. But I root FOR Tennessee; I don't try to prove that the other teams are evil. And then when the season is over, I root for EVERY SEC team that gets into a bowl. But I still don't try to prove the Pac10 or Big 10 or whatever teams are evil. The crap going on here is so mindless, so juvenile, that I have to wonder about the people who populate this board.

The only things really important in selecting a candidate are "who has the country's, and the people's interest at heart", "whom do you trust?" and "who can win?" not necessarily in that order. ALL of the details of EVERY so-called "plan", whether domestic or international will be negotiable if the first two questions are answered correctly.

I think all the dem candidates score pretty well on the first, mixed feelings on the second, and I have a lot of trouble with several on the third. None of the ones from the other side even move the needle on the first or second. THAT is the issue. That is the only issue! A dem must beat whatever lowlife the other side runs. Period. Character assassinations in a circular firing squad are insanely stupid. They feed talking points to the RW.

There, I feel better.

edit:formatting error

[jgraz]

1. Nice post, Hitler

:P

[NMMNG]

3. Bite me.

:silly:

[frogcycle]

5. LOL!

[Lex]

2. Clearly you weren't here during last Presidential primary season.

Same thing.

Gets much better once the Dems have their ticket chosen.

[Maddy McCall]

16. I second this.

I wish admins would go ahead and funnel all of the primary battles off to GD: P.

:hi:

[HereSince1628]

27. Totally agree this ain't unusual for Pres. primary season on DU

GD-P was created to let serious (:rofl:) discussions take place free of the bare-knuckled advocacy and echoing of campaign talking-points that sank topics like a rock.

This is actually what freedom of speech looks like when practiced. Rejoice that, so far, the Cheney administration hasn't taken that away.

[bobbolink]

73. No, it's isn't what "free speech" looks like. It's what bullying and rudeness look like.

Some of us truly do understand that people can disagree and discuss without getting into personal attacks.

Screaming "free speech" to all manner of ugliness isn't PEACE.

It's tantamount to one nation bombing another for the sake of $$$.

[HereSince1628]

99. Equivalences to bombing? I think not.

You know, hyperbolic excess is colorful but reinforces rather than eliminates epistematic resistance.

I'd agree that discussions in GD-P can degenerate into personal attacks and that's a violation of the rules. So when that really goes over the top the alert button is everyone's best friend.

But there is nothing happening on GD-P that didn't happen in the last presidential primary season.

The creation of the GD-P dungeon made possible a place where the inevitable untidy adversarial nature of anonymous candidate advocacy and anti-candidate snarkiness didn't cause such general disruption that it was impossible to read around it to discuss other topics.

[bobbolink]

123. Alerts don't do much good, which I'm sure you're aware of.

IF you're interested in peace, then it's not hyperbole. If you're interested in having the "right" to say any damned thing you want to say, then, yes, calling it hyperbole will serve a useful purpose.

There is much in common between international diplomacy and courtesy on a forum. Whether you wish to admit to that or not, it's there. Peacemaking starts with the small interactions. Any marriage counselor can tell you that.

[LanternWaste]

134. I think that's what rudeness and incivility look like

I disagree. I think that's what rudeness and incivility look like, and though they may be part and parcel of Free Speech, they are not necessarily mutually dependent on each other. I happen to think Free Speech looks a little differently when taken as a whole. But that's just me... :)

[SoCalDem]

4. And that's why we have lost so many oldtimers

I don't post as much as I used to, and often take "vacations" from DU..

It's obvious that 6+ years of Mr. Black/White- with us or against us..has affected us too :cry:

[lpbk2713]

7. (Excellent bumper sticker, BTW)

[yardwork]

117. Hey you kids....get OFF my lawn!

LOL! good one!

[trumad]

9. I'm still hanging because I understand DU...

Opinions are like assholes----- blah...blah...blah...

How ya been SoCal?

[SoCalDem]

12. Hot and hotter

It's supposed to get up to 106 today :grr:

:hi:

[maseman]

13. I agree

I don't have as many posts but still come to DU daily especially for LBN. I must admit I have been reading fewer posts because it seems like within a few posts it turns to name calling and vitriol. I agree that there is a sense of loss with after the last election the Dems are doing nothing. It is extremely frustrating and maybe that frustration is boiling over to DU.

This board was so tight, unified, lock-step before the 2006 elections. Now it is all over the place. I assume also with the primaries it will be fairly divided due to the nature of rivalries. I hope after the primary season, even if Hillary is nominated, this board can go back to activism, hope, unification, etc. Hillary in the Whitehouse is still better than any repuke in the Whitehouse.

[bobbolink]

74. Well, when things are going badly in the nation, isn't that the time to pull together?

I really don't get this way of thinking... we're frustrated, so we can tear each other's heads off?

It's like a married couple who experiences tragedy. If they pull together and support each other in their grief and anger, etc., their marriage will be strengthened.

If they turn their inner turmoil on each other, it's curtains for their relationship.

Excusing all the vitriol only allows it to continue.

[JitterbugPerfume]

42. me too SoCalDem

I really miss the "old" DU Maybe I am just nostalgic and nothing has really changed , but it seems like it used to be a place where I could discuss serious issues with smart , informed people and learn .

Now it just seems to be noise:hi:

[chimpymustgo]

54. Have to agree. The vehement disagreements have always existed, but WITH some thought and reason.

There is a lot of screaming going on here now. I sometimes wonder if there has been a deliberate infiltration to destroy DU. This place has changed. Yes, the 03/04 primary wars were rough, followed by the VEEP battle - which was awful, and a bit of a precursor to what we have now.

It's sad. Everything must change.

[SteveM]

68. Yeah, I have to psyche up to visit the "Gungeon."

[rosesaylavee]

55. !!!!

I love your sig line! Can I get one? I need it for my car and perhaps for my neighbor's car.

[MODemocrat]

63. Sorry I'm so dense, but what is Sig line?:

I see the Duzy award, but don't understand where the signature line is.:hi: :blush:

[rosesaylavee]

94. No problem...

Her signature line has that graphic in it - GOP = Grumpy Old Poops. Not sure why they are called sig or signature lines but they are located at the bottom of each post you make ... if you choose to put something in them. I was responding to SoCalDem I think - look at her post. Bet you will want one too. :hi:

[MODemocrat]

127. Thank you rosesaylaveee

Have always wondered.:hi:

[rosesaylavee]

132. Glad to help.

don't tell anyone but there are still acronyms used here that I go and google to figure out what the heck they mean. Ah, the mystery of DU. Kind of like an onion.

:hi:

[Forkboy]

95. The sig line is this case is the pic of the grouchy old poops.

In my case it's the cute lil Godzilla and my "Peace Through Gimp" line (don't ask).You can add your own under your profile options.

[MODemocrat]

128. That's cute and different

Thanks for the response.:thumbsup:

[SoCalDem]

102. It's not an actual bumper sticker, but you might be able to make one

out of it.. feel free to use it :)

[rosesaylavee]

118. Did you make it?

I think its incredibly clever.

[SoCalDem]

121. Yep.. I used Irfanview & Print Shop..

It came out a bit fuzzy, but I don;t know how to do it fancier.. I actually bought PhotoShop, but I am too much of a :silly: to figure it out..

I need to have someone show me:)

[RainDog]

101. I left for 3 years

because I was tired of posts that took forever to load because two ppl or whatever would get into a flame war. Remember also that stupid troll that was so... moist ... because he was welcome on this board. He did his Houdini thing for the midterms, I think, screaming... I "tricked" people!".

Sometimes I wonder about trolling on a board as large as this one. At the same time, newcomers need to feel welcome. I remember how intimidated I felt when I first started posting here.

However, mostly I think ppl are online rather than face to face in these exchanges and the distance gives license to behavior that probably would not occur in real life, and if it did it would not be tolerated for long by others in the room... as in... take it outside.

I tend to avoid posting on threads that deal solely with "opinion" tho I'll read info. With that in mind, I would love it if people wrote more informative subject lines. I'm sure I've missed things I'd like to have read, but never opened the post because who can read everything here?!?!

anyway, it was very nice to come back and see familiar monikers. I've met some great people b/c of DU. But sometimes life is too hectic for a board of this size.

oh, btw, Big 10 kicks SEC butt. :-)

[frogcycle]

112. but has a little trouble with 1AA teams...

[RainDog]

125. I should have clarified

I'm not a football (American) fan at all.

I do like basketball and soccer, tho.

But thanks for Peyton Manning. Rex Grossman grew up here in fine Big 10 country, btw.

(actually, I'm orig. from TN and I have so many Vol relatives it's scary. Literally. All that orange.)

[Richard Steele]

6. ...

[lonestarnot]

8. Glad you feel better.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. It often seems to me like we have some A.N.S.W.E.R. types on here

Whether by design or coincidence is another story.

[SoCalDem]

14. and sad to say this, but I think we got MORE fractured when all the

issue forums here started up.. Instead of a place of respite and calm, perhaps they are little more than places to organize and then carpet bomb GD :shrug:

[lonestarnot]

20. You are right.

[TahitiNut]

126. Agreed.

Thread-spamming and tag-teaming ... have all but wiped out the "first, seek to understand" tone and tenor.
:shrug:

[KoKo]

135. yes...

[Forkboy]

15. I worry more about the Republican types on here.

[EFerrari]

43. What do you mean, H2S? I got to their events whenever I can.

Do we have kooties? :shrug:

[presspeal]

11. I'd still like to think...

that most of us like to think, maybe a vocal minority has invested too much a certain candidate(or two) and feels a little defensive if they think some one is attacking them.:grouphug:
I do agree that any Dem. is a improvement, but there is a large difference between our candidates.
I want the best we can get, not just good enough to get elected.

[Forkboy]

17. DU is what it is.

It really isn't all that different at all.GD has ALWAYS been like this,only now the thoughtful discussions can be found in any of the numerous sub groups and forums (well ok,maybe not in the Gungeon :) )

[uppityperson]

39. DU is what it is, seems about the same.

Whole bunch of people here for different reasons, some Topic of the Day, some more serious long term stuff, big tent here. Hide Thread is used by most of us at some time.

[SteveM]

69. I think the vitriol in the Gungeon is due to pro-2A progressives being in the house.

It's one thing to find a run-of-the-mill pro-2A site, including the increasing presence of left-of-center gun rights advocates. But the "Gungeon" is unique in that it occupies a presence WITHIN a larger progressive political site. And some folks don't like it. But I've seen a number of instances where "anti" 2A folks have come around to see that some of their stands don't hold up. So, it's worth it to be here, not in the choir.

[Jed Dilligan]

18. Maybe 90% of us should just stop posting in GD

other than "Kick" or "K and R." Save our posting time to bring life to the smaller forums.

[EFerrari]

44. You first! (That's not a bad idea, actually.)

:)

[Jed Dilligan]

52. Ha! It's your turn.

I've already announced my semi-departure, which has caused a maelstrom, nay, a firestorm of interest:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1724055&mesg_id=1724055

[baby_mouse]

107. I started that recently, with magical success!

Mind you, it was the photography group.

I like GD. It's got a rough and ready mosh-pit feel. Actually, I think it's a pretty good place to just blow off steam and let yourself get angry, which, given the current state of affairs, perhaps is a good thing.

[K8-EEE]

19. I still learn lots here, meet cool people here

Come on folks, when you have a community of 100,000 people there's going to be some rubbing you the wrong way. USE YOUR IGNORE LIST!

I'm kind of sick of the hand-wringing & complaining...I've been posting here for years and there's always somebody lamenting on "how it used to be!"

[kineneb]

35. yes, and remember, you can always shut down the computer

and go out for a walk. All the acrimony does not bother me, I see it as "freedom of speech" and a chance to gas off. So we don't always agree... isn't that what the US is supposed to be all about- the right to disagree and not start a war about it?

Remember to breathe deeply and simply enjoy the moment; that is all there is.

[Lifelong Protester]

100. Here, here.

Nostalgia can bite you in the butt if you don't watch out. It ain't never gonna be like the old days, that's why they are the 'old days' and not now.

Chill, walk away, take a vacation from the board. I do.

[Bitwit1234]

21. I don't read the post that are on subjects I am not interest in but

I thought this board was for expression..good, bad or ranting. We are all democrats. We all have opinions but in the end we are all democrats. Democrats who are gonna vote for the chosen one and kick REPUBLICANS out of office.

[Joey Liberal]

22. Taste Great!

Less filling! LOL.

[MethuenProgressive]

23. You Troll! You Plant! You Shill! You Operative!

That's what you hear if you dare post anything critical of one of the DU Darlings.
Just remember: Getting shouted down doesn't mean you're wrong, it just means when you have mob rule, the mob rules.

[Forkboy]

34. Waaaahh

[MethuenProgressive]

36. You Troll! You Plant! You Shill! You Operative!

You're obviously working for Japanese rubber monsters!

[bamacrat]

24. Well all I have to say is Roll Tide!!

But seriously I know what youre talking about some people here suck. I don't think PAC-10 teams are evil I just don't think they are as good as the SEC or as the media portrays them. Even though Cal beat Tennessee, they are a vastly sub-par conference. Im a Bama grad and the only team I never go for is Auburn, doesn't matter just feels wrong, every once in a while Ill pull for Tennessee, like against Cal. But the really good discussions have become somewhat hard to find lately, but they're there.

:smoke: :hi:

[AZ Criminal JD]

64. Roll Tide bamacrat

I didn't graduate from Bama but I work for them now. My office is half block from Bryant-Denny.

[frogcycle]

83. there, you see what I mean?

"Even though Cal beat Tennessee"

You had to say that didn't you?

What kind of vile, hate-mongering lowlife Red Elephant would do such a thing?

:rofl:


When I was at UT, Florida was nobody and the UT-UA rivalry was hot. I still can't quite get used to the 'bama game not being THE game of the season. Hell, Johnny Majors got fired even though he was pretty successful, because "he couldn't beat 'bama."

I read the other day that the last starter from the undefeated 1938 and 1939 UT teams just died. My dad was company commander of the ROTC battalion that the players were in. He had interesting stories to tell about several of them. Most of them went on to fight in WWII, many didn't come back. That era is pretty much just in history books now. Now I get called Hitler for musing about the level of dialogue on a web forum. :)

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LWolf]

26. Ok. Here's a chance to discuss a critical issue

thoughtfully. Please notice that while it got 8 recommendations, there is only one comment, plus my response to that comment:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3493843&mesg_id=3493843

Issues of war and peace, life and death, are not as "hot" as campaign in-fighting, inner-party warfare, and restroom etiquette. What do DUers really come to the board to accomplish?

[Zomby Woof]

28. Nobody saves the world

Posting on a web forum.

It serves well cathartically, but has no practical or nutritional value.

[frogcycle]

31. you got that right!

:rofl:

[Toasterlad]

29. I Just Had a Reasonable, Rational Discussion on DU Last Night.

In fact, the woman I was speaking with got me to modify my opinion of the rights of women to not be "scoped out" on the street. We had a lengthy, intelligent discussion, and we actually read each other's posts and responded to them reasonably. The amazing thing is that I started the discussion by posting a snarky reply to something she had written, but she cut through the snark and responded to the POINT I was making. And things took off from there.

So, you CAN have a rational debate on DU, if people are willing to overcome their knee-jerk reactions to what they view as "attacks". If you think someone is attacking you, try responding to them reasonably and intelligently, and I'll bet they shape up right away.

[frogcycle]

30. I have had similar success

several times.

I was not lamenting people attacking me as much as all the babble of people attacking each other, and responding in kind, and deteriorating to "is not!" "is too!" "I know you are but what am I?".

[KAT119]

33. AGREED!! After A "VACATION" from DU felt a sea change ala paid TROLLS!!

The "gotcha" narrow minded vitriol and true viciousness took my breath away. Only a paid operative hits that hard w/ a blood lust of total annihilation of the posters sincere views, complete w/ ugly name calling...e.g anti-semitic --america hater etc.etc. EGADS!!!

[Tsiyu]

103. ....

:rofl:

[Toasterlad]

104. Of Course, Some People Just Can't Be Reasoned With. Sad.

[Tsiyu]

113. No. I can be reasoned with

I just think it's funny that you basically are saying "If someone is an insulting jerk just be nice to them and then they will be reasonable."

It sounded like you were saying that about yourself. And it just seems to me that if people were not assholes to begin with discussion would move along.

It cracks me up that someone would excuse their own snarky assholishness by saying it's someone ELSE's responsibity to suck up to the asshole if they want to have a decent discussion.

Here's a clue: Don't start out being a snarky asshole. And don't give yourself pats on the back because someone ELSE showed reason.


Carry on.... :rofl:







On edit: I've been here three years; you've been here three months. I don't think I'd still be here if I could never be reasoned with and I don't think you'll be here long if you need other posters to keep YOU reasonable. It also doesn't help when you accuse old-timers of saying things they never said. Or refuse to apologize when you're called on it. Just a little advice which you probably will not take, but hey...one can always try....

[Toasterlad]

115. I've Never Tried to Excuse - Or Apologize For - Who I Am

I ENJOY being snarky. I don't feel that precludes my being open to new ideas or that my mind is set in stone. People have sometimes called me on sounding like a pompous ass when I'm feeling particularly righteous about something, and I usually see how they could feel that way - sometimes I AM a pompous ass. And sometimes, the shoe's on the other foot, and I get the urge to prick the balloon of what I feel is someone else's self-importance. I admire people who can take being shown how they're coming off and see past a perceived insult to the point.

By the nature of the internet, people say things they wouldn't say to other people face to face. I LOVE that freedom, not because I enjoy hurting other people or putting them down, but because it means people can be HONEST with each other. The anonymity frees us to be ourselves, not who people want or expect us to be. If you met me in real life, I dare say you'd find me quite charming, and fun to be around. If I met you in real life, I doubt I'd get even the smallest whiff of homophobia from you; I'd probably find you wonderfully supportive and delightful to be around.

I try to attack POSITIONS I don't agree with, not PEOPLE. If it comes off like a personal attack, it's because I don't SEE a person when I'm debating online; I see a position. Many, MANY people abhor this aspect of the internet, and believe people should be as civil online as they are in everyday conversation. I disagree with this. The freedom of expression that the internet grants us is a very valuable tool, and I hate it when it's watered down with notions of propriety that apply to real life. The internet is not real life. You need a thick skin and an open mind to long survive anywhere online.

That's not to say that you need to be an asshole just to be an asshole. I like to DEBATE people, not argue. However, my sense of humor tends to favor snarky replies; I use them for my own amusement, not to deliberately hurt people. And I like to think there's always a point to everything I write.

For what it's worth, I apologize if I made you feel like I was attacking you - YOU, the person behind the screename - directly. That was never my intention. You seem like you can handle yourself, so I doubt you're taking our tiff TOO seriously, but I wouldn't want you to think (despite what I said in my previous post, which honestly was just meant as a humorous response) that I don't respect your right to have an opinion...an opinion I disagree with, but a valid opinion nonetheless.

[Tsiyu]

116. Well, if you have such a thick skin

you won't mind if i tell you that I just got off the phione with my youngest and he was laughing his ass off at your attempt to personally attack him.

"I bet that guy's balls are as big as his head now, Mom. He must be one of those macho assholes who gets off on attacking little kids.

Well, tell him this for me "Up YOURS...in a bathroom stall or wherever you like it.'"

Yeah, he's a real fragile one, that kid.


:rofl:

[Toasterlad]

119. *SIGH*

As I said before, I never attacked or insulted your kid. YOU were the one who dragged him into the Craig discussion. I gave him more credit than YOU did. Seems to me, he could handle the reality of hearing two men having sex without freaking out, while YOU were the one that was afraid he could not. My characterization of him was based entirely on your portrayl of him as too fragile to withstand the reality of gay sex, a fact I disputed. And it sounds like your "youngest" is a grown man; why are you so worried about his reactions? Time to cut the apron strings, I think.

If you're only determined to hear what you want to hear, instead of what people are saying, you are incapable of reasonable debate, and probably shouldn't be posting on message boards.

I'm not really interested in what your son has to say one way or the other, frankly. However, you can tell him for me that he's right: my balls ARE pretty big.

[Tsiyu]

120. Don't dish it out if you can't take it

And way to go with more lies!!!!



:rofl:

On edit: i asked you yesterday to provide a link where I said my kid was too fragile and you declined. You made that up yourself becasue you had a pre-conceived notion about me and my kid, rather than actually reading what i wrote. if you can't take the time to read something, you should not be on a message board. And yes, my son has four older brothers and two older sisters between his dad and i and he has a pretty thick skin. And he can't stand people who make up lies to make a point.

[Toasterlad]

122. This Is The Last Time I'm Going to Waste on You.

YOU implied that your son was too weak-minded to handle the idea of gay sex when you dragged him into what had otherwise been a discussion of adult gay sex. If your first inclination when hearing about gay sex is to worry for the safety of your child, you equate homosexuality with pedophilia. But I gave you the benefit of the doubt, since you pretended to only worry what would happen to your son if he saw or heard two men having sex, although, so far, despite your best efforts, no one sees this as a problem of epidemic proportions. MY post actually suggested that your kid COULD handle the experience without completely wigging out, which is not what you'd led us to believe.

Since my posts are a matter of public regard, please find one where I "lied" about anything. I'm sure the NON-stupid members of DU are capable of reading comprehension above a 2nd grade level, and will have no problem figuring out who the loony party is here.

Enjoy your crazy, homophobic life. I'm officially done with you. :boring:

P.S. Remember a couple posts above, I graciously apologized to you, not because I thought you deserved one, but in the interest of keeping the peace? Yeah, I take that back. You're not worth it.

[Tsiyu]

124. Awww I'm sorry

You never did provide a link where I implied anything. If you could provide even one link that proves what you're saying it would be truth not hearsay or a lie.

You lied about my discussions above. Admit it.

If you want to have a sane, rational discussion with someone, take the time to read what they actually said rather than what you want to ASSUME they said.

And I think most everyone is worth the time, even you, and I apologize for taking this lower but i couldn't resist given the fact that you say being insulting is your "style."
I guess it's only your "style' when it isn't YOU being insulted.

Now I have a gig to go play with some wonderful mountain folk who can actually have respectful discussions about sex, drugs and rock and roll without insulting anyone or their childrrn,

So I'm off DU, too.

Have a wondeful evening and thanks for playing.

[baby_mouse]

106. Quite so. Make the effort and it returns to you.

The emo's unavaoidable sometimes, we all get peeved and fire off garbage. But in my experience, DUers get with programme pronto when they feel that the other side is at least listening.

[The Straight Story]

32. "simpleminded allegiance" like for the party?

I know you said candidate, but the same could be said for the party. I don't see a huge difference - nor do I see it as simple minded.

We know that a Dem needs to win, and dems need to retain/gain in congress. It IS that simple.

Now - with candidates, we see something similar. Instead of R vs D though it is R-lite vs D-Left, it is a struggle to save the party and hence our country. Hillary for example will be left of anyone with an R, but she is standing only so far left as to be able to have her foot touch their foot if she adopted a wide stance :)

Whereas someone like Dennis is so far left he would need a ride in a prius for about an hour or two just to get close enough to see someone with an R in big block letters.

Remember the anybody but bush days? We are in that fight yet again - just without the bush.

We don't have a lot of shots left at all this, and if we don't get the right person in now, we are in for another 4-8 years of getting screwed, except this time we will actually probably be liking it so we don't make our own party seem bad (ie, make em look good or else another R will get into power, so let's all talk happy about the things being done or not done).

DU was not around during the clinton years - it will be interesting to see how people discuss things when we have a democrat in the white house - will we "feed talking points to the RW" or just lay down drunk off our asses because someone other than a rethug is in the WH? If it is hillary, will folks call you a misygonist if you say negative things about her leadership? Will you be a racist if Obama is in and you blast him for doing a poor job?

The problem here on DU, to me, is how easily we label people to try and shut down their arguments - kind of like calling someone a nazi just so you can make them look bad :)

I *DO* Respect and grok what you wrote though - so sorry if I went off on some assholish rant.

I think you said it all though in one brief moment above:

"Somebody posts something inflammatory; tons of people chime in saying "right on!" or "bullshit!"
and then eventually everyone gets tired of it and it drifts away."


Now I need to go make coffee and wake up before I post anymore.....

[frogcycle]

76. my bad - I meant singleminded

sometimes my hands get disconnected from my brain and just do their own type-ahead
thanks four your comments

[GreenEyedLefty]

37. I kind of dig the bitchiness

It keeps things interesting.

}(

[Joe Chi Minh]

51. So-called 'think-tanks' are apparently the acme of incompetence and stupidity,

so what bizarre standards are expected of a nationwide, indeed, international, forum? It's not the UN or the European Parliament.

[peacetalksforall]

38. Ya know, I find that I can't suffer talk about candidates when we

appear to be about to bomb the hell out of Iran. And cause ????????????????????

[LWolf]

40. What's the best way to prevent action in Iran?

THAT is a topic worthy of discussion. Is there a thread I've missed? If not, why not start one?

[frogcycle]

85. do it

I think we all feel pretty helpless because it's obvious it's coming and whatever so-called "checks and balances" are supposed to be working are just flat dead.

I mean, what the hell am I going to do - camp on my *congressman's doorstep and demand he cosponsor Kucinich's impeachment bill?


* that would be none other than Dennis Hastert

[LWolf]

88. I'd be camping outside Greg Walden's door.

He's not as well-known as Hastert, but I can guarantee that he won't help the cause.

[bigtree]

41. it gets worse as the election season moves on

I get pretty insane myself. Goes with the territory. Things go back to analytical after the thing's all over. From now until then, surface will trump substance. Count on it and work to bring the substance to the surface. That's the challenge.

[BlooInBloo]

45. Go Cal!!!

(snicker)

Substantively, I'm with ya. Never forget Atrios' rules for primary season:

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006_12_17_atrios_archive.html#116645724148144035

Some Notes on Primary Season

1) Your favorite candidate is the only one who can win.

2) Your favorite candidate is the only one who will truly get behind a progressive agenda.

3) Other candidates are part of some nefarious conspiracy to destroy your candidate.

4) Supporters of other candidates are motivated by groupthink.

5) Supporters of other candidates are operating in bad faith and arguing dishonestly.

6) "Powerful" bloggers shouldn't be "biased."

7) Primary season is the silliest season of all.

[Occulus]

46. Wait until tomorrow, frogcycle-

I'm going to start a GD weekly thread series tomorrow to try to counter some of that. What I have in mind definitely will prompt reasoned discussion, if it's given serious consideration.

And- there will be a nice, long video each and every time. No, not put together by an amateur. The videos themselves are open to the public, and they usually have an instruction to embed them into "your own webpage", so I think it's safe and legal to at least link to the video's page (without embedding it here) for discussion. The videos, by the way, are amazing and will cause some people's heads to explode. :)

I won't reveal any more, but I think they're ideas worth spreading.

:think:

[skids]

47. Try the smaller forums.

Less noise there. Occasional troll trying to build up a post count, but nothing like GD.

[Gman]

48. Excellent post -- K&R

More than anything else, there is a deepening lack of maturity with the DU body as a whole. Mainly, so many of the (what I call) kids and even children here (i.e. people mostly under 30 and especially 18-22. Yes, children.) display a petulance traditionally found in only completely spoiled brats. And to make matters worse, they are about as ignorant as Bush is stupid of so many issues EXCEPT the war. That is all that matters to them. They couldn't care less about, for example, health care or living wage, or other working folks issues.

[MODemocrat]

62. Gman, I'd run a footrace with you for your Avitar

That's pretty cool. :thumbsup: :hi: :dem:

[Gman]

66. Made it myself

and laughed the whole time doing it!

[frogcycle]

77. just steal it

[MODemocrat]

130. Frogcycle, I'm not savvy enough to even steal it

Maybe I can figure out how. I'm going to use my age as an excuse for being computer illiterate;
Of course, I'm ONLY 74 years old; that's not old or is it? :dilemma: :blush:

[frogcycle]

131. 74 is a spring chicken. My dad didn't even START using a computer until he was 78!

how to steal someone's avatar:

just right-click with your mouse pointer on the image and select select "save image as" and select a place on your computer to put it. Your desktop may be the default, and that is fine. You'll get a file named "103453.jpg". If you double-click it wherever you have it on your computer you should be able to see that it is the right file. You might want to change its name to something meaningful, like hil_salute.jpg or something.

Then follow the DU "personal profile" steps to upload that file as your personal avatar.

And I am sure the owner will be flattered!

[Joe Chi Minh]

49. Yup. That is the only issue for you because you think "ALL the dem candidates

score pretty well on the first." Nuff said.

But I don't know what a person who compares political parties, who, whether Republican or Democrat, can plunder the country or just impoverish and marginalise a section of it, quite possibly a majority, to football teams, is doing posting to a political board. Peoples livelihoods and very lives are not at issue in a football game.

[rateyes]

50. As a Volunteer fan living in Georgia, all I have to say is...

Go Dawgs, and take the damned Gators with you!!

Sorry for our loss to Cal Saturday. That sucked gravy. We need some defense.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. You're Absolutely Correct And I Agree Completely. Your Latter Points Need To Be Recognized Far More

by some.

Hang in there. We may not always agree, but on this issue I hear ya completely.

[AZBlue]

56. Couldn't agree more!

K&R

[frustrated_lefty]

57. Remember to breathe there, bro. :)

Anyone who's been on this board for long at all has an idea what you're feeling. The exasperation fades and you come back to fight the good fight. It sounds like you have good ideas, so I hope you'll continue to share them at your own pace.

-fl

[Batgirl]

58. For a long time there was an important unifying factor

for everyone to focus on: hatred of Bush and alarm at the damage we believed him to be capable of. Despising Bush, which was both energizing and, after a while, depleting, sometimes felt like having a second job. It felt like a burden that couldn't be put down as we witnessed many of our worst fears coming true, as well as terrible things most of us never dreamed of.

This was a shared experience among most of the participants of this forum and created a powerful sense of bonding.

But Bush has now become much less relevant as people look to the future, and the political differences that were there all along are coming out. And judging by some of the resulting flamefests, there are those who feel personally betrayed to find out that a fellow member actually differs from them. Perhaps they are further to the left, further to the right, too moderate, or backing the wrong candidate. Maybe they don't support the right groups or causes. Any of these are sufficient reason to launch immature and disrespectful attacks on fellow DUers, sometimes creating an ugly animosity among people who used to peacefully coexist.

Anger and adrenaline are being spewed at other forum members just for disagreeing, sometimes with melodramatic overstatement of the threat to our nation's welfare if a handful of DUers express the wrong opinion.

It's interesting to note, too, how often things do settle down for a few days -- and suddenly out of nowhere a thread is started on one of a few reliable topics: breastfeeding, smoking, Cindy Sheehan, the death penalty, abortion, spanking. Like moths to the flamewar people will come to the thread to launch their attacks at one another, and presumably by the time the thread is locked everyone is imbued with the satisfaction of knowing they saved democracy yet again with their scud missiles of Truth.

I believe DU is in the process of figuring out what it will be, with Bush becoming less and less of a defining factor.

[SteveM]

72. That's a great one! "Scud missiles of Truth."

[frogcycle]

78. LOL LOL LOL

"Like moths to the flamewar people will come to the thread to launch their attacks at one another, and presumably by the time the thread is locked everyone is imbued with the satisfaction of knowing they saved democracy yet again with their scud missiles of Truth."

[Buzz Clik]

59. So, froggie -- which DU monsters are you going to feed?

You can feed the juvenile, non-thinkers by reacting to them, or you can respond only to those willing to show some brains.

It's only a fraction of DUers who come here for reasonable conversation, but they are easy to find.

[frogcycle]

81. ha!

I'm going to go back thru this thread and make two lists, based on the responses.


:rofl:

[icymist]

60. Man O' Man! The DU is a bulletin-board

How in the world are you going to change opinions of people posting on a bulletin-board?!

[AZBlue]

61. Here's a real question - it's a tangent, but it's a related one:

I joined DU two years ago (during the Katrina debacle) and therefore missed the last primary season so maybe this is just part of the season, but how (or is there even a way) can the blatantly obvious campaign staffers be laid to rest here? In GD:P there are about a half-dozen DU'ers who on a daily basis post anywhere from 3-10 threads full of glowing rhetoric about their candidate - who I would guess has them on their payroll. I've come to ignore all their threads, but still it bothers me. I don't come to DU for platitudes and boiler plate remarks - let's face it, we have the MSM for that! I do want others to tell me why I should vote for their candidate as I have no candidate of my own yet, but I want real discussion, not insipid and baseless accolades such as "XYZ got a standing ovation in New Jersey" or "Hundreds turn out for XYZ at last night's rally". Who cares?? Give me issues people!!

Does anyone else notice this phenomenon? Is there a way around it? I know there's the "ignore" button, but it's partly the principle that annoys me and my simply ignoring them won't help that. I realize that campaigns, candidates and even current politicians not running for anything all have a presence on DU - that's fine. It's more than fine, I think it adds an interesting twist to discussions here. But I didn't sign onto DU to receive such obvious pitching and advertising.

Thanks!

[Catchawave]

70. :sigh: Hide Thread and the Ignore feature is your friend......

It works and helps the blood pressure too. :hi:

[AZBlue]

79. True, but I hate to use those.

You never know when that goofball's actually going to say something smart and I might miss it!
:silly:

Still, for the sake of my bp and my stress level, it maybe become necessary in the future - near future - to start using them!

Thanks!! :hi:

[Catchawave]

89. You're welcome and

:hug:

I tried the *hides* and *ignores* once also. Personally, it was painful because all my threads contained *ignored* comment lines...oy. And they still appeared on the home and greatest pages ! I couldn't escape them :scared:

The rah-rah threads don't bother me. It's when I run across my candidate being quoted out of context and flogged by the DU circular firing squads (ready..fire..aim), that I get menopostal with a gun.

Stealing a great Obama quote,sorta, "I don't oppose attack threads, just dumb attack threads".

We need more rah-rah on DU, then we'll survive Campaign '08. We can agree to disagree, and may the best wo/man win :patriot:

[fujiyama]

65. Just don't get started about Olive Garden!

[frogcycle]

93. i must have been absent when Olive Garden was a topic

what's up with it?

[tbyg52]

67. Is there an "argue about Dem primary candidates" forum? nt

[sniffa]

71. what happened to you DU? you used to be cooL

as someone said above - you weren't here in 2003. that was some wiLd shit. :o




"DU was populated largely with serious, thinking people"

:rofl:

[Clark2008]

75. GO VOLS!!!

Although, you do know that Florida IS evil, don't you?

:evilgrin:

[frogcycle]

80. well, yeah, that goes without saying

and I am now very conflicted, as my sister went to SC, and before they made their deal with the devil I could root for them because they sucked anyway, but now I have to hate them too

[sendero]

82. I think...

... the incredible frustration of 7 years or moron rule coupled with the nascent realization that our party is either unwilling or unable to do anything about it has tempers frayed.

That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

[Warren DeMontague]

84. PornPETAOliveGarden BreastfeedBreastfeed CryingKidonAirplane, Don't Breed.

PornPatriarchyMeatMeatMumia.

OliveGarden PETAPETAPETAPETA MeatMeat.

SmokingSmokingSmokingSmoking!

PETAPornPETAPorn Dworkinwasagenius Dworkinwasanutjob PornPETASmokingBan!

Donthavekids Donthavekids onlyassholeshavekids OliveGardenBreastfeed PornySmokeban SmokeyPornBan

Stopbashingchristians
stopbashingchristians
stopbashingchristians

allchristians are not religiousrightwhackjobs
but
when you make fun of religiousrightwhackjobs you are bashing allchristians

Stopbashingchristians
stopbashingchristians
stopbashingchristians

when you say things like, "the earth is 4.7 billion years old", you are bashing allchristians.

So what if a pit bull bit some lady's head clear off- they are all sweet wonderful animals and the lady probably provoked the poor thing.

Obama/Hillary/Edwards are corporo-fascist DLC puppets, but Joe Biden's head appeared to me on a piece of toast. At the olive garden. While I was breastfeeding.

PETA! Porn! Smoking Ban!

This post is intended for humor purposes only. I swear.

Rinse. Repeat.

[NC_Nurse]

87. Bwahahaha!

That was good.

Primary season is full of piss and vinegar here. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Remember, it's just a board. Not RL. :hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Oh, I know. It was a mess last time around.

And you know what? I'm the first to admit I supported the wrong guy. If I had it to do over again, I would have backed Dean.

[bobbolink]

86. Take a look at how many reasonable and interesting discussion topics are posted, and how fast they

crater.

With the exception of a few *popular* posters, most threads of reasonable and important content don't get but a handful of responses.

It's the hot topics that get the "action".

Until/unless more DUers are interested in actual discussion, the situation will continue.

And, as long as the attacks are allowed, *those* will continue.

[Joanne98]

90. Actually this is the peaceful season! Wait a couple of months.

You'll need body armor! lol

[dysfunctional press]

91. not all democratic candidates are equally democratic.

i REFUSE to support, endorse, or vote for a dlc dino, JUST because they don't happen to actually have an "R" after their name.

[Swamp Rat]

92. Funny thread!

:D :hi:

[bridgit]

97. hm, hm, hm...i got noth'in...

[snot]

98. I've honestly wondered if there's been a big influx of members who are

just posing as liberals and hang around for the sole purpose of disrupting useful discussion.

I've gotten flamed a lot lately for what I thought were reasonable well-intended comments. It really gets hard to take.

[Frank Cannon]

109. I suspect we have more than a few agents provocateurs here

The recent glut of threads defending Larry Craig are all the proof I need.

[Skittles]

105. the fighting over candidates is just plain sickening

ugh

[depakid]

110. Oh good grief, this shit happens every primary season

It's just started way too early this go round.

Nothing we haven't seen before... repeatedly. ;)

[Skittles]

111. so it's happened before, so what?

it was sickening then too

[baby_mouse]

108. I don't agree.

Actually, if anything, the site's improved...

[Strawman]

114. I agree completely

The candidate goons are the worst. They poison the atmosphere around here and go nuclear at anything that might be interpreted as critical of their guy or gal. I don't know if they are paid goons working for these campaigns or if they are self-appointed blogosphere bodyguards with some kind of deep-seated psychological attachment to their candidates that trump their feelings about issues, but it's really fucked. There's nothing wrong with advocating for a candidate or defending them, but when the candidate becomes more important than ideas something is seriously wrong. There's a distinction between reasonable and civil candidate boosters and candidate goons. The latter resemble cyber-brownshirts. What is missing in their discourse is any semblance of public reasonableness. The candidate is the cause and the ends justify the means to them.

[Elspeth]

129. Probably paid

I've been noticing lots of unfamiliar names and the odd activity

[frogcycle]

133. that was what I was trying to say with the sports analogy

obviously some respondents missed it. People are behaving like rabid fans rather than thinking. They get so pumped up over "rooting" for "their" candidate that all reason is ignored. I was trying to say that even as a loyal fan of one team, I don't become irrational. And if a sports fan can maintain some level of objectivity, should not the selection of our next president, which, in turn, probably determines whether the country will survive with its original form of government intact, be a little more thinking than "tastes great" / "less filling" ?

Somebody criticized me for comparing something as important as selecting the president to something as trivial as sports. Well, my point was that the behavior I observe is trivializing it WORSE.

Every one of the dem candidates will say something stupid, will have an unflattering photo taken, will find that they did something that can be construed as hypocritical. One would think that DU would be focused more on building them ALL up to convince the rest of the country that there are decent people with a D after their name, than to just keep handing the Limbaughs more raw meat.

To belabor the sports analogy even further - you root for your entire team to win the championship. You may ALSO be pulling for your favorite player to win MVP, but you don't savage the rest of your team over it.

Perhaps you are right. Maybe the worst of them ARE provocateurs - ARE John Maddens!

[jzodda]

136. Welcome to Primary Season

By the first week of Feb it will be all over once Super Tuesday is over most likely. Until then you will have to tune out or put up with it. Politics is a contact sport and its becoming more "contact" every year.