Chavez says he could govern until 2027

[MonkeyFunk]

CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez said Sunday he could continue governing until 2027 if voters do away with re-election limits because he needs more time in office to establish a socialist economic model in Venezuela.

He has previously said he could stay on as president until 2021 if his proposed constitutional reforms -- which among other changes would eliminate presidential term limits, letting him run as many more times as he wants -- are approved.

Government opponents have attacked the reforms, accusing Chavez of seeking to stay in power for decades like his close friend Fidel Castro of Cuba. Chavez denies the charges and says a new constitution is necessary to move Venezuela toward socialism and help the country's poor.

"I need more time in the presidency to finish this. We are only beginning," he said on his weekly radio and television program, "Maybe until 2020 or 2027. I'd be old if I'm still alive."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20566448/

So I guess it takes 28 years to reform the presidency.

[bluestateguy]

1. 3..2..1..for someone to come along to this thread and say that the media messed up the translation

nt

[UTUSN]

10. K&R #1, yaas, we death squad leaders just keep TWISTING San Hugo's words!!1 n/t

[UTUSN]

93. COME on you peeps, let's kick (and especially RECOMMEND) this!!1 n/t

[EFerrari]

17. Are you bilingual? Even without being bilingual, it's not hard to find

the spin.

Every time I chase down this cr@P!, it turns out to be wrong or skewed or taken out of context.

When he ACTUALLY eats those babies, I will start a thread and be the first to apologize. lol

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. Why would it be a problem with the translation?

There's nothing wrong with the statement.

[Forkboy]

2. "could" .."if voters do away with".

And we may still be reforming our own presidency for the next 3 decades as well after this fiasco.

[Bonobo]

3. Yeah, "Democracy" works so well for us, they really should try it!

[MonkeyFunk]

4. So until

we achieve perfection here, we can't discuss other countries?

[EFerrari]

30. Perfection?!

lol

[MonkeyFunk]

61. Why not address the question

instead of just dismissing it?

Why, in any discussion of Venezuela, do people here immediately point out flaws in the U.S. as if that somehow precludes discussion of what's happening there?

It's not a comparison. It's not a contest. What's wrong with discussing other countries?

[EFerrari]

76. I agree. This planet is smaller every day.

The deal is, imho, there is a concerted smear campaign against nascent democracies in Latin America.

And the way that works is: the corporati have an agenda and then they sell it to us in nationalistic terms they hope we will buy. :shrug:

Mr Chavez and indeed, the legislators in Venezuela are doing great work -- rebuilding infrastructure, being serious re diplomacy, reigning in the corporatis.

We don't hear that here. We get biweekly propaganda pieces about them. :shrug:

I'm no one's groupie (you know me better than that by now, I hope!) but the film that details how our government has blocked democracy in Latin America to promote corporate interests IS NOT BEING SCREENED HERE. What does that tell you?

:shrug:

[Bonobo]

89. The problem with "discussing" other countries is:

1. We have no power or responsibility to change those countries. So why discuss? The answer is that we "discuss" other countries as a way of satisfying ourselves vis a vis our view of our country. In other words, we are still kinda okay as long as we are not Korea, Venezuela or Cuba, etc.

2. We know relatively speaking, nothing about these other countries. About their politics or their culture. Therefore, such "discussions" are based on our own culture-bound values and our own "free press".

How about them apples?

[MonkeyFunk]

95. Why discuss?

Because it's what we do!! If a country has a right-wing leader, it's discussed here all the time.

By your argument, people in other countries have no right to discuss the US. That's silly.

And if people approve of Chavez, nobody complains if somebody posts something positive. It's only when something that's interpreted as negative to Chavez that people start complaining that we don't have a right to discuss Venezuela.

[EFerrari]

98. Who is saying don't discuss Venezuela?

Let's go, by all means. But posting unfounded bs isn't exactly a discussion.

[MonkeyFunk]

100. unfounded BS?

I posted an AP article.

[EFerrari]

112. I wasn't referred to the skewed AP article but to the numerous

"he's a dictator" posts.

And, btw, the presidency is not the only object of reforma in Venezuela, although that is always the focus of these articles which are meant to elicit just that impression.

They've also got this great program going to organize community councils. One of their jobs is to identify local needs, develop plans to meet them with funds from the feds. But, you never hear about that, for example, because what dictator in his right mind would empower municipalities? Ditto for the plan to turn jails into universities.

[stillcool]

5. I looked for the article...

from another source. Forgive me for doubting our illustrious press. Truth be told, I'm not really concerned about what might or might not happen in Venezuela in the future. Sometimes I forget where I am.

[poverlay]

6. I hope not. If the reform he's pushing has a chance it'll have to stand the test of executive

change.

[Snarkturian Clone]

7. ah jeez

yet ANOTHER step toward comic book super-villainy :silly:

[UTUSN]

8. Yaas, after the world ends in 2012, San Hugo will be ruling on and on!!1 n/t

[UTUSN]

96. Kick n/t

[treestar]

9. He has to be elected each time, though

He does not say he would not step down if someone else was elected. This would just be the way the US was before the presidential term limits amendment. This was how FDR was elected four time. He'd have been president for 16 years had he lived, at least. Mabye he'd have been reelected a fifth time.

[Forkboy]

11. Pointing out that people would have to actually vote for him is downright unAmerican.

It's your duty as a citizen to hate Chavez (while ignoring his far worse neighbor because hey,what's a little flaming hypocrisy among us?).

[killbotfactory]

12. And he can be recalled halfway through each term

If the American people had the same power Venezuelans have, Bush would be history by now.

[EFerrari]

13. Right on time.

lol

[nini]

14. " "I need more time in the presidency to finish this. We are only beginning,"

I actually thought of another 'president' when I read this. Scarily reminds me of the dumbass on the other end of the spectrum.

[EFerrari]

19. Sure, because the corporate media runs a minimun of 2 hit pieces

on him per week. They seem to work pretty well!

[Balbus]

15. Venezuela?

Who fucking cares.

[murloc]

16. President For Life

As if nobody saw this coming.

[EFerrari]

18. As if was possible in the Venezuelan system.

Oh fer Chrissake.

[murloc]

20. I think anything is possible

When a dictator with rule by decree powers is running amock.

Its also not possible to steal a presidency under our constitution, yet it has happened twice here.

[EFerrari]

23. Please show us how Chavez is a dictator run amok.

Unless you are referring to the way he's kicked the corporate vultures of of Venezuela? Or, not playing ball with BushCO? Is it the literacy programs? Hot meals in schools? Homeownership programs? The clinics that are going up all over? The community councils his government is setting up all over to determine local needs? What?

What?

Geezus.

[murloc]

41. Rule by Decree

I'm sure that you have heard of it.

His eyes set on president for life isn't exactly non-democratic either.

thats ok. I know that you love him and thats cool. We just disagree.

I'm just thankful that our dictator will be out of office in 2009.

Venezuela will be saddled with their monster for a few more generations.

[EFerrari]

43. There is no "rule by degree". He was given limited power to

accomplish a limited task.

And no, you have no idea whom I love, thanks.

Now, explain how Mr. Chavez is a monster.

You are extremely loose with your language. And extremely short on fact. Neither helps our understanding of what is happening in Venezuela.

[murloc]

46. mmmkay

[EFerrari]

48. That's the best you can do?

I rest my case.

[Forkboy]

52. It really IS the best they can do.

Small arsenals from small minds.

[murloc]

57. Theres nothing more to say

Your love for Chavez makes conversation difficult.

Its ok. We disagree

FWIW, I see fanaticism for Bush in some people that I work with. Conversation with them about the realities of Bush is difficult and usually impossible. I've learned to simply disagree with them and focus my efforts on others.

As you say, I rest my case.

[EFerrari]

59. But you haven't said anything of substance yet.

I can patiently wait for the facts you can present to back up your assertion.

[murloc]

62. see above

I rested me case.

And so did you If I recall.

Further conversation is fruitless between us.

[EFerrari]

68. You've made no case. And no, I will not back off from propaganda.

Because it hurts us all. If YOU chose to buy in, that's your perogative.

I have no interest in upsetting you, murloc. But you engaged in this debate and it's an important one. If you chose to retire from the debate, peace. I don't.

[murloc]

69. see above

Yes I've retired from the debate.

You have your view and I have mine.

its ok.

[Forkboy]

63. Give it up.

You're just making yourself look foolish now.

[murloc]

70. I DID give up

I'm not trying to convince you or your friend of anything.

I'm sure why you all keep replying to me.

[Forkboy]

73. Maybe because you keep responding to us.

"See above" "See above"

[EFerrari]

74. murloc, if this seemed to you to be a personal attack, I'm sorry.

What I know is, I've been tracking the history of progressive leaders in Latin America whose mission of democracy has been sabotaged by US corporations for a long time. Actually, for ever.

And they are usually made dead by CIA or some other mechanism -- like a smear campaign.

Put it together: Chavez is trying to take his countries resources back from the multinationals. So, he is a target for Bushco.

I invite you to track the coverage for just two weeks -- to see if I'm wrong about what they're trying to do to this guy, who is just an obstacle for them.

peace.

[cherokeeprogressive]

90. I see X # of threads per week that say * is planning to extend his pResidency through Martial Law.

Please convince me there is something in the Venezuelan system that makes something like THAT impossible.

He said "I need more time." Can you also convince me that if * uttered those same words, there wouldn't be someone saying he was headed towards martial law and dictatorship?

I'm all eyes...

[cali]

21. These Chavez threads are almost

as meaningless as they are amusing.

[cobalt1999]

22. Once you get rid of the opposition TV, radio, and newspapers

Then it's easy to get re-elected over and over.

Just another in a long string of "elected" presidents for life. Who didn't see that coming a mile away?

[killbotfactory]

25. They didn't get rid of opposition TV, radio, or newspapers

One prominent station, RCTV, got bumped off of public over-the-air broadcasts and moved to cable, due to it's numerous broadcasting violations and attempts to overthrow the government.

[cobalt1999]

37. Is that what they call it now "broadcasting violations" or "trying to overthrow the government"?

and some progressives can twist their minds around supporting this. :crazy:

[EFerrari]

39. If you google this topic for 30 seconds, you'd find that FAIR

agreed with Chavez. So did intellectuals, Nobel prize winners all over the world.

It's amazing that some "progressives" are backing rightwing owned media outlets against one of the most progressive leaders in this hemisphere.

Have you seen the documentary of the attempted coup? It's widely available.

And RCTV hosted the installation of a real dictator. And lied to the people that Chavez had resigned and abandoned them, when in reality, he had been kidnapped with the help of our beloved CIA.

Really, do your homework.

[Forkboy]

42. Give it up.

[EFerrari]

47. Why are "progressives" so pre-disposed to just drink the crappy

propaganda?

I just don't get it.

Chavez may blow it at some point. He's hasn't so far, hasn't even come close.

What IS this DU contingent that is oh so ready with this out of control rhetoric?

It's disturbing.

[Forkboy]

49. I don't know.It's almost pathological.

You'd think he was Nader or something. :)

[EFerrari]

51. LOL!

That's the ticket. He's Ralph Nader with an accent and a bunch of oil.

:rofl:

[Forkboy]

54. And he turned me into a newt!

:D

[EFerrari]

56. Green is my very favorite color.

lol

:)

[killbotfactory]

72. They turned their channel into a 24-hour call for the overthrow of the Venezuelan government

They pre-planned leading their own anti-Chavez protesters into a sniper trap, killing their own protesters (which they blamed on Chavez, a charge which was echoed in Washington and US media). After the incident, the military kidnapped Chavez under the threat of being bombed, and put the business elite in charge. They quickly dissolved the constitution, national assembly, and supreme court. That was the closest Venezuela got to becoming a dictatorship while Chavez has been in power. And you are saying progressives should defend these fucking monsters? Leaders who would happily black out the news if it suits them, while using public airwaves no less, and order snipers to fire on innocent people who support them? We are supposed to cry over a pro-fascist anti-democratic channel, run by people who would gladly murder innocent people in an effort to grab power and overthrow democracy, being demoted to cable?

Bullshit.

[EFerrari]

29. That didn't happen. Check your facts. n/t

[murloc]

45. exactly

Unfortunately, some are so in love with this dictator, they no longer see reality.

It reminds me of the villagers who praised and worshiped the drug kingpin Escobar, because he built a few schools and churches.

These same chavez lovers would be screaming bloody murder (and rightly so), if any leader pulled the same tin-pot stunts here in America.

[EFerrari]

55. I'm still waiting for you to show us how he is a dictator.

And I'm a really patient person.

[murloc]

58. I thought you rested your case?

See above.

[Forkboy]

65. I'd still like to see evidence of YOUR case.

Mmmmkay?

[BuyingThyme]

24. Lots of wishful reading going on here.

[Marr]

26. I'm tagging this thread so I can read the inevitable debunking.

The same few posters come back and post this sort of crap every once in awhile, and every damn time their hysterical ranting turns out to be nothing but hyperboly and lies. I haven't got the time or the inclination to tread through yet another one myself, so I'll just tag it out of morbid curiosity.

[BuyingThyme]

27. Their president wants the same privilege as our Congress.

No term limits. Democracy is only good if it's American.

[EFerrari]

28. Sometimes I think that having a strong progressive leader

who isn't from the United States just pisses people off. :shrug:

And yeah, the debunking always follows.

[Forkboy]

31. I read as many of these threads as I could when they started to pop up.

I came into the topic without being for or against Chavez.But as I read I saw one dumb claim after the other by his detractors turn out to be utter crap,a pattern that still continues.Most of the anti-Chavez stuff is little more than name calling,and when facts are pointed out his detractors will either just run from the thread or simply ignore the facts,in true Bush fashion.

What's funny is how many people rail against the mainstream media but don't hesitate to eat this stuff up like starving puppies.

[EFerrari]

33. Bingo.

It's just weird.

[Marr]

34. I stopped engaging in debate with these people.

Every single time one of their claims was debunked, they'd just stop responding to the person who debunked it and reassert their original claim at someone else. It's like they just don't care what the facts are-- they have a narrative to promote and they're going to promote it.

[EFerrari]

36. I can hardly blame them because there is a sh!T storm of propaganda

-- at least two major disinfo pieces in our most prominent outlets a week. I think they have a quota to fill or something. :shrug:

But we can be better consumers than that, imho. I do not believe Chavez is the Second Coming but he's been amazing for Venezuela and I'm surprised he hasn't gotten dead by now because BushCo HATES him for blocking their plundering of Latin America.

/oops

[frylock]

77. and it's the same 7-8 people, every time..

they're clearly here to disrupt, and nothing more. every fucking time a Chavez thread pops up it's the same tired crap that's been debunked a thousand times over by the same FUCKING posters. you try and educate them, but it's useless.

[EFerrari]

32. Associated Press Falsely Portrays Chavez as Seeking 25-Year Term

Associated Press Falsely Portrays Chavez as Seeking 25-Year Term
Monday, May 08, 2006

By: Justin Delacour - Latin America News Review
A little scrutiny of a recent Associated Press report about Venezuela provides a lesson in how the English-language press often gets the story wrong. Take the first sentence: "President Hugo Chavez said Saturday that Venezuelan voters should have the chance to decide whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years."

No, such a referendum would not be about "whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years." A referendum would be about whether Chavez would be permitted to run every six years and --in the event that he were to continue winning elections-- serve multiple presidential terms. The AP report's opening sentence makes it sound as if such a referendum would do away with elections in Venezuela, as if its intent would be to grant Chavez a new 25-year term in office! The website of The Calgary Sun even titles the wire report "Chavez seeking 25-year term"!!

This is obviously an extremely poor piece of reporting. Chavez made it clear that, if the opposition committed to participating in the upcoming presidential election, he would not convoke a referendum to end presidential term limits. He explained that the intent of his threat to convoke such a referendum was not to perpetuate himself in power but rather to defend the Bolivarian Revolution.

Fortunately, Agence France Press (AFP) got the story right. The opening sentence of AFP's Spanish-language report reads, "Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez claimed Saturday that, if the opposition decides not to run candidates in the December presidential election, he could decree a referendum to permit his reelection for multiple terms until 2031."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1723

[EFerrari]

35. Here's some other evidence of Chavez consuming desire

to be a dictator:

Chavez Tries Role As Colombian Mediator
By Toby Muse and Ian James
The Associated Press
August 29, 2007


BOGOTA, Colombia -- Venezuela's Hugo Chavez is taking on a risky role as a mediator in Colombia's hostage standoff, stepping squarely into his neighbor's civil conflict and provoking optimism among the families of those long held captive by rebels.

At the invitation of President Alvaro Uribe, Chavez comes to Colombia on Friday to discuss how he might facilitate an exchange of imprisoned rebels for hostages.

"I hope we can make it so these people return safe and sound to their homes and that this humanitarian agreement comes through," the Venezuelan president said last week in Caracas during a meeting with the grateful families of the hostages.

But Colombia's civil conflict is complex, and Chavez got a rude awakening when the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, rejected his first concrete proposal _ an offer of Venezuela as the site for the swap.

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/news/08-29-07ap.html

'Mr. Danger' Meets His Match
By John Grant
Philadelphia Daily News
August 31, 2007


Caracas is a city the size of Philadelphia built on rolling hills. A drive on the autopista reveals two distinct worlds living in precarious balance.

There are districts of tall, glistening buildings of glass and concrete with all the modern amenities of a nation with one of the largest oil and gas reserves in the world - then there are great, sweeping hillsides blanketed with thousands of ranchos, or shanties, piled one upon the other. These barrios are considered off limits and dangerous by those who live in the glitzier world.

The power of President Hugo Chavez lies in these vast poor barrios. The poor in Venezuela outnumber the rich, and, unlike in the United States, the poor vote in large numbers. This is the democratic reality currently tormenting the Bush administration.

In 1992, as an army lieutenant colonel, Chavez led an audacious but unsuccessful coup against President Carlos Andres Perez, who, in spite of campaign promises, had given in to an IMF austerity plan for the Venezuelan economy. The citizenry erupted, and thousands were killed. Chavez did time for the coup attempt, but when Perez was impeached and fled the country, Chavez was released.

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/news/08-31-07pdn.html

Venezuela’s Aid to Latin America Exceeds that of U.S.
By Natalie Obiko Pearson and Ian James
Associated Press
August 26, 2007

CARACAS, Venezuela -- Laid-off Brazilian factory workers have their jobs back, Nicaraguan farmers are getting low-interest loans and Bolivian mayors can afford new health clinics, all thanks to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Bolstered by windfall oil profits, Chavez's government is now offering more direct state funding to Latin America and the Caribbean than the United States. A tally by The Associated Press shows Venezuela has pledged more than $8.8 billion in aid, financing and energy funding so far this year.

While the most recent figures available from Washington show $3 billion in U.S. grants and loans reached the region in 2005, it isn't known how much of the Venezuelan money has actually been delivered. And Chavez's spending abroad doesn't come close to the overall volume of U.S. private investment and trade in Latin America.

But in terms of direct government funding, the scale of Venezuela's commitments is unprecedented for a Latin American country.

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/news/08-26-07ap.html

Venezuela Converts Jail into University
Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 Print format
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By: Kiraz Janicke – Venezuelanalysis.com

Caracas September 1, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com) – Venezuelan authorities announced on Thursday to a community assembly in the old penitentiary El Junquito in Catia—a sprawling working class suburb in western Caracas—that the jail will be converted into what will potentially be Venezuela’s first “socialist” university. The project is part of the Mission Alma Mater, a plan to develop twenty-eight new universities across Venezuela.

Two architects, Alejandra Castillo and Facundo Baudoin, have been charged with developing the project, in which the government will invest 126 billion bolivars ($57 million), Castillo introduced the project to the assembly saying, “We are in the construction of a new way of life, a new social model. In this process of construction everyone who can contribute in knowledge and experience will have their impact in the creation of what is called the Socialism of the 21st Century.”

Baudoin continued, “This is the first time that a university will be constructed with the real participation of the people, not only because they will help build it, but rather because the university will address the necessities of the community.”

The development of the 28 new universities through Mission Alma Mater was first announced by President Hugo Chavez in May and involves the creation of three different types of universities; state universities, specialist universities, and socialist universities.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2405

Chavez's Push for Permanence
By Tim Padgett
Time
August 17, 2007

As Hugo Chavez was being re-elected to a second six-year term as Venezuela's President last December, I had a long talk with National Assembly Deputy and constitutional lawyer Carlos Escarra inside the legislature's colonial-era chamber in downtown Caracas. Escarra, a close Chavez ally, is a driving force behind the campaign to eliminate presidential term limits in Venezuela — a reform that Chavez's critics fear would let him rule for life and create a left-wing dictatorship.

You've got to admit, I said, given Latin America's brutally autocratic history, that whenever an oil-rich, radical populist like Chavez makes it easier for himself to rule indefinitely, it raises more flags than a Caribbean regatta. "But we're not Cuba," Escarra insisted. "How many times do we have to prove that? President Chavez has now won three elections and a recall referendum, and all were declared transparent by international observers. So he could still lose the next election because it's still up to a majority of the voters."

Escarra was telling me then what Chavez himself told his critics this week from his lectern at the National Assembly, as he formally proposed the term-limit reform and a host of other constitutional changes: "I recommend," said Chavez, "that they take a Valium." In other words, Chill out. If French Presidents can seek re-election indefinitely, say the chavistas, why can't Venezuela's? If Americans could re-elect Franklin Roosevelt four times, they ask, why can't we re-elect Chavez as many times?

On the one hand, they've got a point. If Chavez had a reputation for winning the presidential palace by trashing the ballot box — like, say, most Mexican Presidents of the 20th century — then the news this week would be genuinely alarming and the Bush Administration's attempts to pair Hugo with his buddy Fidel Castro might be more credible. But respected groups like the Carter Center in Atlanta have deemed his victories fair, the result of a remarkably incompetent Venezuelan opposition rather than rigged voting. And rather than ramrod the constitutional amendments by fiat, he'll put them to a national referendum. Just as there was a good chance that Chavez could have been ousted by the recall referendum in 2004, there is at least the possibility — one that would never exist in Castro's Cuba — that voters could reject his term-limit proposal as well. "At the end of the day," says Bart Jones, author of a new Chavez biography, Hugo!, "it's still a democratic process."

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/news/08-17-07tm.html

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Hopefully The People Won't Tolerate It And Will Unseat Him.

He's a power hungry piece of crap like the rest of em, and I can only hope that his people wisen up and overthrow him before he consolidates his quest for power even more. Much like we here need to wisen up, I hope they do there as well. But never would I imagine the people here sitting by while bush tried to do such a thing. I hope those in Venezuela don't either and stand up and declare that they will not allow this to occur. He's a dictator and a piece of filth. Hopefully the day will come when he too will have to face the consequences of his actions.

My prayers are with the people of Venezuela and I hope for their sake they find a way to knock him down.

[EFerrari]

40. "Like the rest of them"?!

What do you mean by that, exactly? And on what basis are you asserting that?

"The consequences of his actions"? Earth to OMC: he's in office because he got voted in in elections more transparent that WE have had for the last two cycles.

Please do some reading and stop embarrassing yourself in this way.

[Forkboy]

44. "Please do some reading and stop embarrassing yourself in this way."

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

91. Yes, Like The Rest Of Them.

He's no different then any of the other power hungry and greedy scumbag country leaders, ours included.

And I laugh my ass off each time I read these types of threads when the locksteppers just continue to bow down as if he is just oh so wonderful, when if the president here EVER tried to do such things those very same locksteppers would be showing more anger, outrage and vitriol then we've ever seen the likes of. The hypocrisy is astounding and mind boggling. I can't help but laugh my ass off as I watch it unfold before my eyes. :rofl:

If you think ruling by decree is a good idea; if you think shutting down dissenting media is a good idea; if you think taking away term limits so that a propagandic president can run straight on for 25 or more years is a good idea; then pardon me while I sit back and shake my head from side to side in utter amazement. :wow:

[EFerrari]

99. I've read your post three times looking for one fact.

There aren't any in it. Only insults and strawmen and hyperbole. I hope you don't hurt yourself with all that shaking because it won't help your critical skills.

[murloc]

50. If they can

As he consolidates power and his grip on Venezuela tightens, the opportunity to unseat him peacefully will eventually be washed away.

[EFerrari]

53. Ms Clio, is that you?

lol

[murloc]

60. No. I'm not clio

Theres more than one person who see Chavez and Bush for what they are.

[EFerrari]

64. Then more than one of you need an eye exam.

Chavez has been working for years to shore up the people. Bush has been working for years to get us killed. There is no comparison.

Get a clue, steal or buy one.

[murloc]

67. I know people who say the exact opposite

That Chavez is the villian and Bush is working to shore people up.

In my view, bad eyesight or not, both are wrong.

Bush & Chavez are simply 2 sides of the same turd.

[EFerrari]

71. You might want to do some searching on your own.

Because these men couldn't be more different.

[Forkboy]

66. Well rush right down and save them from themselves!

Go South,young man!

[frylock]

79. the more you tighten your grip, tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers

:rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

92. Yup. He's Already Kicking Out Anyone Who Disagrees With Him, So God Only Knows What Else He Has In

store.

And you're quite right that some of us see through his propaganda and recognize the dangerous hunger for power that resides within him. I'm sorry for how you've been responded to by some but don't ever let them harass you into submission. You are right to feel the ways you do and have gained respect for sticking to your guns. Most of us here recognize that Chavez is a wolf in sheep's clothing, but there will always be those here who will continue to idolize him in a cultish sort of way. They are a minority, but vocal enough to appear more than that. So hang in there. :)

[EFerrari]

97. LOL! Who is he kicking out? That's a new one.

:rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

103. You Really Don't Know?

Wow. One would think you'd educate yourself on the subject before you claim to be such an authority on it.

But let me be honest: I have no intention of attempting to actually break you out of the the 'Chavez is God' cult, as I'm aware there is nothing that can be possibly presented to you or explained to you that would have the power to cause you to think critically and objectively enough about the issue. So let's not waste our time pretending there's any use to this conversation, ok?

I understand here that some are under the spell of lockstep that chavez can do know wrong. I'm aware that trying to reason with them is an exercise in futility and that they will attack and berate repeatedly anyone who dares speak ill of their be all end all leader. That's why most here stay away from the chavez threads, since they know better than to take on those who are so heavily under his propagandic spell.

So worship him all you want. The majority of us know quite well how to see through the wolf chavez's sheep clothing.

So fare you well, and may you someday become aware to how much like the rest we loathe he actually is. The sooner the better. You'll be better for it.

[Forkboy]

108. What a cop out,dude.

If you got facts,show 'em.So you don't educate sfexpat, but you might educate someone else.Everything you say is just more insults and dodges.

Chavez is God' cult

Nope,I don't think he's God,and I doubt anyone else does either.It would be like saying you're part of the "Mainstream Media Cult".It's nonsense,correct?

there is nothing that can be possibly presented to you or explained to you that would have the power to cause you to think critically and objectively enough about the issue.

You surely couldn't have typed that with a straight face?

I'm aware that trying to reason with them is an exercise in futility and that they will attack and berate repeatedly anyone who dares speak ill of their be all end all leader.

Seems the reverse is equally true as well.If someone speaks well of Chavez there are those,such as yourself,who will attack those who do so.

That's why most here stay away from the chavez threads, since they know better than to take on those who are so heavily under his propagandic spell.

Why do you think you're above the propaganda of the MSM? You certainly can't argue that they have been less than upfront on many,many,MANY issues repeatedly.Why trust them so implicitly now?

So worship him all you want.

See point 1.

The majority of us know quite well how to see through the wolf chavez's sheep clothing.

Apparently not that majority of people voting in Venezuela.

You'll be better for it.

:eyes:

[rockymountaindem]

75. Okay, I'm finally going to make a statement about Chavez

I usually avoid these threads like the plague because everybody's so entrenched in their opinions it doesn't lead to good debate, IMHO. But I feel like I have to say something.

I'll begin by saying that someone on this site, whose name I unfortunately can't recall because I'd like to give that poster credit, made a very good observation about the Venezuela situation. That poster remarked that Chavez' critics need to stop looking at the scene in terms of democratic vs. undemocratic rule. Rather, they should see the changes going on there as a peaceful revolution, which, though not an electoral democracy in ideal terms, is at least not a bloody overthrow featuring "dekulakization" etc. Therefore, people should set a lower bar for "democracy" for Chavez because he's not someone who is striving for democracy *right now* (though maybe later), but is rather trying to make a sea change in Venezuela with as little violence as possible.

Here's what I think. Judging by other revolutions, if Chavez is a revolutionary he is a relatively bloodless, peaceful one. So, if he is a revolutionary, he should be praised for undertaking ordinarily bloody work in a relatively peaceful manner. However, Chavez continues to maintain that he is following the concepts of democracy. In my opinion, this term limit change is not adhering to the principles of democracy very well. Imagine the outcry on this website and elsewhere if Vladimir Putin were to abolish term limits in his country. I doubt many people would defend *him* with protestations that if the people keep voting for Putin, he should be allowed to stay. The United States has wisely instituted term limits as part of our democratic form of government. I believe term limits are important for democratic governance, and I would be willing to consider term limits for Congressmen and Senators here. So, it doesn't impress me for someone like Chavez, who is a self-proclaimed democratic leader, to seek to abolish pre-existing term limits in his country and predict what amounts to lifetime rule for himself. If he were a revolutionary, this would be par for the course, and the fact that he hasn't massacred the opposition would set him above most other revolutionaries. However, the fact that he claims the mantle of democracy while undertaking this, and perhaps other, undemocratic "reforms", makes him a poor democratic liberal in my opinion, and more like an undemocratic strongman.

In addition, I think that observers of Chavez should take him at his word. If he claims to be a democratic leader, judge him as one. If you conclude that a democratic ruler wouldn't attempt to institute what he seems as lifetime rule, and I think most of us would, then this move at least should be condemned.

[EFerrari]

78. He can't institute a lifetime rule. The people have to vote on it

on systems cleaner than ours.

[rockymountaindem]

80. I'm not saying he's cramming it down their throats

but I do think that if he really cared about democracy, he wouldn't propose such an undemocratic thing be put on the ballot. If he were really democratic, he wouldn't want it. I don't mean to sound cliché, but George Washington could have been king, but he didn't want it because he cared about the democratic principle. What about the ideal of Cincinattus? By proposing and backing this initiative, Chavez is not living up to that ideal.

[EFerrari]

81. How is that proposal undemocratic if it requires a VOTE?

Many counties don't practice OUR system -- and most of them seem to be doing better than we are.

We didn't originate democracy, you know. It's not our property nor have we ever "spread" it anywhere. Careful.

:shrug:

[rockymountaindem]

82. Did I *say* we invented democracy?

I didn't. One would have to be totally ignorant of history to think we invented democracy, or republican government. I was just offering Washington as an example. Cincinattus was another one. But saying that something undemocratic isn't so because it requires a vote is silly. What if there was a vote to totally suspend elections, permanently? That would be arriving at an undemocratic end through democratic means. Ultimately, the country would be less democratic than before. My point is that if Chavez *truly* valued democratic government, he wouldn't *want* anybody to propose this measure, or vote on it, let alone support it himself. If the Venezuelans support this, that's up to them. I don't begrudge them anything. But, I think the goal of this measure is undemocratic, and that people who support democratic rule shouldn't look kindly on it.

[EFerrari]

83. What if Chavez did something undemocratic?

Yes, that would be silly to go into fits over that possibility.

lol

[rockymountaindem]

88. I'm not going into fits

I'm totally calm. Chavez isn't bothering me. I just think that people vociferously defending this *particular* facet of Chavez' program should think about what they're defending because it's not democratic.

[EFerrari]

101. What part of popular vote is unclear to you?

It's a system used in many countries -- but suddenly, when it's used in Venezuela, it's "undemocratic"?

It's astonishing to me that people who've had their last two federal elections stolen right under their noses feel so entitled to tar Mr. Chavez, who has so much support not only among his constituents but in the region and among prominent American progressives.

Frankly, it's just gobsmacking.

He may yet fuck up bigtime. It could happen. But so far, the biweekly smears from our whore media only generate a bunch of reactions, speculation and incredibly silly judgments based on no facts.

[rockymountaindem]

107. You're completely missing my point

which is that 1) undemocratic ends can be arrived at by democratic means and 2) that regardless of what the people want, if Chavez were truly a democratic ruler, he would be opposed to the idea of what amounts to the possibility of lifetime rule. I'm not even saying that he should ban it or prevent a vote on it or anything. If the people of Venezuela want lifetime Chavez rule, they're entitled to it. However, I think that if Chavez were the democratic person he says he is, he wouldn't *want* these powers for himself.

Since you keep comparing this situation to the US instead of judging it on its own merits, think about it this way: if Bush wanted a constitutional amendment to allow his administration to govern until 2027, would you think it were some kind of pro-democracy initiative even *if* it had broad popular support? I think not.

[EFerrari]

117. I'm not missing your point, you are, lol.

But, you are entitled to your opinion, apparently formed in a vacum, of what a "democratic" person would or wouldn't do.

[cali]

87. Forget it.

There are certain people here who are highly prone to black/white thinking in tandem with a strong strain of hero worship. They cannot look at anything in any other way.

[Mutineer]

84. He's a dictator in the making.

There are those in his country and some here on this board who refuse to see him for what he is. Give them time enough and they'll have to eat their words about how he's a great leader, etc. But the people IN his country won't be able to say that because dictators don't allow free speech. And his supporters? They don't deserve it.

[Forkboy]

85. So,how are you different?

But the people IN his country won't be able to say that because dictators don't allow free speech. And his supporters? They don't deserve it.

We don't deserve free speech? You sound like a dictator in the making.

[Mutineer]

111. Since you like Chavez so much

why would you have a problem with any dictator? Or do you just selectively pick those you support and those you don't? If he were pro-Bush I have a feeling you'd hate him. So you're giving him a free pass to do anything to the people in his country, and declare himself president for the next 20 years. Anyway you cut it, that's a dictatorial hold on a contry and its people and he has already shown a systematic approach to consolidating his power in that country. People here, of all people, should get what he's doing. But some of you are so blinded to what he's really doing because you like what he's saying. Sorry, no love for Castro or his little Buddy Chavez from me. And I'm happy to see that there are at least some here at DU who haven't been blinded to this madman and his actions.

[fishwax]

121. declare himself president for the next 20 years?

Where do you get that from?

[Forkboy]

129. You don't even your facts right.

One,he isn't a dictator.Live it,love it,learn it.He was democratically elected in elections that were more transparent than our own are.You either need to accept this or at least have the decency to not lie about it.

He hasn't declared himself President for 20 years,and he can be voted out at anytime under his proposals.

What he's saying has NO bearing on why I like him.What he's DOING is what counts.And he's doing a hell of a lot to help people that genuinely need it.Not the rich and powerful,and that's who you're really defending here,whether you know it or not.

And you never told me how your desire to see no free speech for a segment of a population you disagree with is any different from the actions you claim to be standing against.Pretty flamingly hypocritical of you.

Once again,for the what seems like the millionth time,someone against Chavez has no real facts,just conjecture,fears,outright lies and and a unfathomable newfound belief in our media.

[EFerrari]

86. I want to see either your license as a fortuneteller or your cancelled check

for spreading this cr@p because it's really hard for me to believe that a progressive would be so thoughtless.

[UTUSN]

94. ALL San Hugo followers want to SILENCE (me or) dissenters!!1 n/t

[EFerrari]

102. All your anti-Chavistas are belong to me!!!!!111

:rofl:

[Forkboy]

109. I'd say that was great satire if only it had been.

Closer to slapstick,I'd say.

"A" for presentation."D" for effect.

[WillyT]

104. Good... I Like Chavez, And He Should Govern As Long As...

it pisses people here off.

:curtsy:

:evilgrin:

[angstlessk]

105. Key word here is 'could'...being voted in by the people...sorry

that is not a dictatorship! IF THE PEOPLE VOTE FOR HIM IT IS BECAUSE THEY WANT HIM IN POWER! See if the elite had spent more money/time/resources to create a REAL middle class..the PEOPLE who support Chavez would not have created the NEED for Chavez in the first place...GET a clue people!

[Kelly Rupert]

115. Bush was elected twice.

He is therefore a totally legitimate president, and deserves the power to influence (to the point of shutting down) media outlets, rewrite the constitution and bully political opponents into silence.

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

119. No one can prove that Bush was ever elected. n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

120. I can, pretty easily.

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/votes/2000_2005.html

[EFerrari]

124. That's not proof, that's codification of a fiction. n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

126. No, it's not.

By the Constitution, that is the official tally of the election of the President. Bush was pretty clearly elected twice. To say he wasn't is silly.

You can cast doubts on the legitimacy of those elections, especially in regards to the electors sent by Florida in 2000. But the man was elected twice, and you can't state that that being elected (and disregarding all other factors) grants you carte blanche to do whatever you like is good policy with Chavez and bad policy with Bush.

[EFerrari]

128. We were speaking specifically of Bush's "election"/

There is no evidence that Mr. Bush has ever won a national election, regardless of the fact that he was seated. Had he won, the Supreme Court wouldn't have had to interfere on his behalf in 2000, and had he won in 2004, there would have been no basis for a recount in Ohio -- a recount which was tampered with and which has resulted in several indictments.

So, no, it's not silly at all. You seem to trust officialdom a great deal.

[Kelly Rupert]

131. I don't think you understand what "election" means.

Mr. Bush was elected twice, though unfairly.

And I do not trust power in the slightest, whether it be related to Mr. Bush or Mr. Chavez.

[EFerrari]

133. I don't think you understand what "election" means.

And comparing those two elections is laughable.

[Horseradish]

106. Just a sub-thread ...

... because I'm interested in how people feel about term limits in general.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1727828

[bullwinkle428]

110. I'm more concerned about * attempting to govern until 2027... (n/t)

[Kelly Rupert]

113. It's been interesting watching his supporters here,

defending his consolidation and expansion of power. With each new development, I think, "that's it. There's no way any liberal could possibly believe that this guy is anything but a dictator. How can you defend this?"

With each new thread, I am treated to increasingly-strained answers.

[EFerrari]

118. Please amplify your claim that Chavez is consolidating power. n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

122. Here.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/57714.pdf

Now amplify your claim he isn't.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. The State Department?

Is that a reliable source?

[EFerrari]

125. Your authority is the same government that tried to have him

illegally deposed in 2002? The same government that funds the oligarchy's efforts to oust him? And, you see nothing problematic about that?

Do you also believe the Pentagon on Iraq and FEMA on the Gulf Coast?

[Kelly Rupert]

127. You have failed to combat the claims.

The State Department has a vested interest in removing him from power. This is acknowledged. It does not invalidate their claims. Please, prove that Chavez has not wielded undue influence over Venezuelan media.

[EFerrari]

132. Google is your friend. Go read the FAIR assessment. Or here:

Media Advisory

Coup Co-Conspirators as Free-Speech Martyrs
Distorting the Venezuelan media story

5/25/07

The story is framed in U.S. news media as a simple matter of censorship: Prominent Venezuelan TV station RCTV is being silenced by the authoritarian government of President Hugo Chávez, who is punishing the station for its political criticism of his government.

According to CNN reporter T.J. Holmes (5/21/07), the issues are easy to understand: RCTV "is going to be shut down, is going to get off the air, because of President Hugo Chávez, not a big fan of it." Dubbing RCTV "a voice of free speech," Holmes explained, "Chávez, in a move that's angered a lot of free-speech groups, is refusing now to renew the license of this television station that has been critical of his government."

Though straighter, a news story by the Associated Press (5/20/07) still maintained the theme that the license denial was based simply on political differences, with reporter Elizabeth Munoz describing RCTV as "a network that has been critical of Chávez."

In a May 14 column, Washington Post deputy editorial page editor Jackson Diehl called the action an attempt to silence opponents and more "proof" that Chávez is a "dictator." Wrote Diehl, "Chávez has made clear that his problem with Granier and RCTV is political."


http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3107

Really. If you're going to quote the Bush State Department, just don't bother.

[leaninglib]

114. I don't think so.

He will not live that long.

[cobalt1999]

130. "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly for the same reasons" - anonymous

but true.