Until we kick the oil addiction, Oil Wars are inevitable...Global Warming is inevitable...

[Junkdrawer]

and, eventually, destruction of our civilization is inevitable.

There is no greater priority that the development of clean, affordable alternate energy sources.

Now, since there are $30 trillion or more of oil in Iraq alone, the current Powers That Be are not going to bust a gut searching for alternatives. Indeed they are going to try to actively STOP all efforts in that direction all the while giving lip service to the search for alternatives.

It's not like we lack alternatives, but here's the typical pattern:

A promising new technology appears in the scientific press. It becomes the water-cooler talk in techie circles for a week or two, then *poof* it's gone. Maybe 5 to 10 years later, it gets dusted off, reconfigured, and becomes the next alternative of the week.

What we need is a way of tracking the progress of all the alternatives and a way of ranking the relative worth of all the alternatives. Such a list might also help to encourage the investment in alternatives.

We all know what the problem is. It's time we move toward solutions.

[Crazy Dave]

1. Big cars, big boats, big homes, etc.

I actually heard the "I need my big boat and I need a big SUV to pull it" here on DU.
And the "I need my 10,000 sq. ft. green home for my wife and two kids" excuse too. "Everybody else needs to conserve and sacrifice but not me" is the prevalent attitude and it's bipartisan too. It's an American disease and addiction and it's Americans that think it's their God given right to have cheaper gas prices than the rest of the globe even if it costs lives.

Soon we'll be starting wars for other diminishing natural resources because of the "I need my (fill-in-blank)" entitlement attitude.

[patrice]

2. Sustainable Co-Housing Communities.

Tele-commuting.
Mass-transportation.
Alternative Energy sources.

[Gregorian]

5. Here's something I might be getting involved with.

I think it's unreasonable. But that's another subject. If I get involved it'll be because the second best thing is what we have. I'm meeting with the founder next weekend, if all goes well. We may be starting a new community in northern California. I'm excited about it. But it's not going to solve the world's problems. It's just going to help.


http://www.thefosl.org/Public/FoslInTheNews

[patrice]

13. Here's one I found recently.

http://www.ncbcapitalimpact.org/default.aspx?id=146 I haven't looked into it yet.

But I've been aware of "Intentional Communities" since the 1990; I used to order a national directory that a coalition of intentional communities published each year, when they had their convention, and I kept it in my classroom for the seniors I taught to look at before they moved away.

Our local university town has several co-housing projects, one of them nearly 20 years old I think. They're not associated with the university. I think the university just stimulates a lot of alternative culture with old and deep roots there.

[Gregorian]

21. This is very different.

This is 4000 acres of land owned by a logging company. So far, it appears that planning thinks it's "sprawl". But if it happens, it's going to be totally self contained. There is a river that will be used for energy storage. During the day, power will be generated, and the water pumped up the hill. At night, the water will be allowed to flow back down and generate electricity.

Animal husbandry, gardens, and all kinds of neat stuff. I'm excited. But it's very early. At best, a year or two away.

[patrice]

20. BTW, Good Luck!

I think figuring out how to do this and helping others to do it too is some of the most important work there is.

Solidarity!

[Junkdrawer]

7. You mean like Europe?

Take away the Big Oil noise generators, and people more toward solutions.

There are tremendous economic opportunities in earth-friendly technologies. If we ignore these opportunities, other countries will eventually win the business and we will be left in the dust playing catch-up...again. I think Al Gore said similar things back in 2000.

[patrice]

17. You know, that's the main thing that convinces me against those who

say Global Climate change is wrong. How could ANYONE in their right mind, how could anyone whose judgement isn't prejudiced somehow, how could anyone who desires the Common Good be against the development of Alternative Energy Technologies. I mean they can make all of their other arguments at least appear reasonable, but being against the economic and environmental opportunities available through development of Alternative Energies is proof positive that something is seriously wrong.

[Gregorian]

3. There really aren't alternatives.

I hate to say it. In these numbers, we simply cannot live a modern lifestyle and expect the planet to survive. A Prius is still a car. It still requires the same tooling and the same infrastructure as we have.

Right now I'm getting ready to start working with a group that is starting a new town. It's a group of ex-dotcommers. They are buying land from a logging company. They want to start a sustainable community. But I see one fallacy. If people think they can live a partly modern lifestyle, they're wrong. Because unless you go back to a premodern lifestyle, one still needs modern equipment. A bearing. An endmill. Wire. These things require a completely modern infrastructure. There is no half way. It's all or nothing. Unless one can do the mining, and melting, and machining in order to create bearings and machine tools, they'll have to find someone who can. Timken. Or some other huge company. And that is the modern world. You can't argue with this. We are on a path that is unsustainable. In these numbers. One billion could live this way. Seven billion cannot. And that is problem we're facing.

And that's just materials and fabrication. Even if we did find a miracle alternative energy conversion source, we'd still have to have water and food. That might be possible. But when you start tacking on cars, clothing, housing, medical... It isn't going to be sustainable.


Edit- I should say that even though I do not see solutions, I am totally supportive of anything that will help. I am not giving up on trying to slow down that massive crash we're heading for. After all, we may preserve what is left for those who are here in three hundred years.

[daninthemoon]

6. The question then becomes, how much of this "modern life" do we need?

[Gregorian]

9. Or can sustain?

And it's a good question. One which I don't have an answer to.

A sustainable community might allow us to live a more modern lifestyle than the one we are living.

Suddenly the word commune resurfaces.

The problem with what we've been doing is the "individualism". How many chainsaws does a town need? How many dump trucks? How many machine shops. Right now every house has two cars. I belong to a forum where everyone has their own machine shop.

I mean, if we want this level of convenience, with these numbers, and in this existing engineering, it looks like the earth can't take it. Fewer children, fewer car trips, less convenience. In a word- slower.

I think your question is a very positive one. I tend to approach this in a negative way, because I've been watching it for forty years, tapping my foot the whole time, with my arms folded, and shaking my head. It's sick. So I have to back off and think about this.

What it means is the bearing companies can still exist, but they'd have to be on a much smaller scale. No more corporate farms. It's all done communally, and there is no transportation.

But here is one problem I can't get past easily. Health care. Let's assume that healthy people need less of it. No more angiograms. Or maybe sick people just die, like they always have. But how do we provide things like MRI's? That's massive. This is what I mean by "all or nothing". How do we produce these things without all of the peripherals? Maybe health care would be provided by sparsely distributed facilities. Just a couple of serious hospitals in each state. That's lousy if you flip your backhoe and need a hospital now.

We're living a luxurious lifestyle that seven billion simply cannot achieve and sustain. And I don't know if there is an in between. Not one that's convenient, anyways.

[Junkdrawer]

8. Overpopulation is the other Mega Issue we need to deal with...

Oil made keeping 6 billion humans alive feasible. Numbers like that are just not sustainable.

Here's the problem: to solve overpopulation, we will have to play God: we will have to regulate who can have children and how many they can have. Organized religions are going to go nuts.

[Gregorian]

12. There must be some way that's not draconian.

If we think about it, two children keeps the population at about six billion. So we cannot keep having two. And since we can't have fractional children, it looks like it's one or none.

But try telling Santorum. He's got six.

Man, I don't know. I still say we need a population forum. There are people who are thinking about how to achieve these things.

I think we're in trouble. And I say that because there is so much denial we can't all get on the same team. If everyone realized the situation we're in, they'd realize this is an absolute emergency. But that requires math. Being able to visualize that exponential curve. And how for all of eternity that graph has been flat. And now it's essentially vertical. It's skyrocketing to disaster. But Santorum doesn't know that. He's playing in another nonreality world.

I know we can't be dictators. That never works. And I'm afraid the alternative is great suffering. Of course I'm assuming that global warming is creeping up on us at a high speed. It certainly looks that way.

We're a nation people living lives of wreckless individualism, whether we know it or not.

Darn it. I have kept this stuff inside for nearly forty years. And I find myself feeling rather exposed when I post here. It's hardly the stuff that makes for laughter. Perhaps the next step is to change the world situation by example.

I'll post this again. As it may be an example. With luck, I may find myself involved in creating a community with these guys.

http://www.thefosl.org/Public/FoslInTheNews

[Junkdrawer]

18. Mass starvation is draconian. Epidemic diseases are draconian...

We will have to pass laws that say when you can and cannot have children. And they will have to be enforced with things like sterilization.

Like I said, I can hear the religious leaders now: "God said be fruitful and multiply. He will find a way!" Yeah, but "his" way will be war, starvation and disease. I don't think I like "his" way.

[Gregorian]

23. I've been saying this for years.

But the problem is, people seem to want a crisis before changing. Using our heads and being vigilant just seems so anti-American to some.

Actually, somewhere in the bible it says we are to be the caretakers of this planet. Anyone who's religious should be all over reducing population.

But you already knew this stuff.

You know, it really is a relief to be at least discussing this stuff with people. Phew. I think Al Gore has done the world a very big favor with his work. Now we are at least getting people to discuss this.

[Junkdrawer]

24. We are staring into the abyss. As Al Gore is saying "we have reached...

the time of consequences"....

[entanglement]

32. Well the 3 billion or so humans who barely manage to stay alive aren't anywhere

as dependent on oil or the amenities of modern civilization. They survive on very little (As 'sustainable' as it's humanly possible). Per capita resource consumption is a more meaningful metric than "overpopulation", IMHO.

[bridgit]

10. Alternatives are there/here, and the Iraq war could have launched...

a most formidable R&D effort for components of the rest. What is often simply not understood, is the extent to which petroleum products are permeated throughout our economy & life systems. Gas, fuel, plastics, lubricants, propellants, etc. All up & down the line.

A move to renew-ables where ever they are possible is what I'd like to see. But the machinery of our system is fossil powered & lubed. I'm certain people roll their eyes when I say I can't wait for the next level of physics. But that is where we need to be. Sadly, however, with 10's of billions of barrels of oil still left un-pumped, and with futures (futures, ha!) & commodities portfolios brimming with un-maturated fossil stocks...nothing is going to change :(

[Gregorian]

16. It hurts. We gave away our surplus.

We could have put billions into research. Not that there is a good solution. Solar is only good for a fraction. And we still need, what it is, ten percent of the oil we pump, for stuff other than gas. And with millions of new cars in India and China...

I think it's unrealistic under any situation to expect that six billion people can all live with the degree of comfort and convenience that we've had.

There are alternatives. But that only solves a fraction of the problems we're facing.

I think you're right. I am looking at a big picture, and it's very dark. It's probably the proper thing to think of solutions for the smaller set of problems. And the reason I say that is that we aren't on the same path that we were on. Families are smaller now. I am and I am not optimistic. If everyone starts to see what we're talking about here, there will be corrections in each person to change the course. India and China. Those are the ones to work on.

If world population growth slows down, we can survive. That is a very touchy thing.

[daninthemoon]

4. Agree 100%. Nothing else matters unless we get off the oil.

Unfortunately, the rw wackos beleive the earth is ending anyway (Armageddon) and fighting this is going against God. Remember James Watt? We are supposed to use up the end of the earth.

[NNN0LHI]

11. Can't give up the water addiction

There will be just as many wars over fresh water before this is all over with.

Don

[Junkdrawer]

14. See post #8...Oil fueled the overpopulation....it's like overeating...

Getting fat is easy...slimming down is hard. Eventually, we're going to have to force birth control. And I can hear the wail of organized religion now...

[RB TexLa]

15. Necessity is the mother of invention

Things aren't invented until they are necessary, that's the way it usually works. Right now, carbon fuels are the easiest way of running the world.

Of course as someone who produces oil and natural gas, I'm in no rush for the alternative. The alternative for me being no longer getting several royalty and production checks a month.

[scarletwoman]

19. "...encourage the investment in alternatives." Yeah, well guess what. Everyone's been conned into

"investing" in THEIR game. Who holds all the capital?

Alternative energy has to start with alternative economics. As long as everyone is obediently feeding Wall Street, the credit card companies and the corporations, no change will be possible.

sw

[Junkdrawer]

22. People invest in "their" game because, frankly, it's safer than trying....

to figure out which of thousands of alternate energy companies have even a ghost of a chance of making a profit.

This "go off in a thousand directions" thing is great for brain-storming ideas, lousy for producing economically viable alternatives.

[scarletwoman]

25. Well, to be honest, I don't invest at all, except in my own survival skills.

So, it's all academic to me. All I'm saying is that if you truly want things to change, you have to stop enabling the forces that are dedicated to preserving the status quo.

It seems only logical to me.

sw

[patrice]

26. Sustainable Co-Housing Communities should be built based on

alternative economics and functional ratios of different professional groups. Problem is, I don't know what everyone is supposed to do when Uncle Sam asks at tax time whether there's any barter going on.

[scarletwoman]

28. Tell him you have no idea what he's talking about. Or tell him to fuck off. Or maybe both.

I don't think you can resist and defect successfully unless you actually resist and defect. Kind of like how you can't be only partly pregnant.

Either you set your goal of forming an alternative economy and act to reach it, or you don't. If it's what you're determined to do, you'll figure out what it will take to do it -- including knowing the answer to the question you've posed.

sw

[patrice]

29. I hear one of the best ways to avoid this kind of question is to

make so little money that you don't show up on IRS radar.

[scarletwoman]

30. Yup. That's always worked for me.

:D

[Initech]

27. If Bush says that we're addicted to oil, then he's the drug dealer.

[bridgit]

31. the pusher but yeah: goddess damn the pusher man...

[MadHound]

33. There are solutions available, alternatives are out there

But sadly, our modern multinational energy sector is heavily invested in fossil fuels and they won't change over until we're already over the cliff and heading down.

But alternatives are available. We have more than enough wind energy to provide for our electrical needs, and we can always add solar. Biodiesel can fulfill all of our transportation fuel needs, and if we use algae as the feedstock, we wouldn't have to touch an acre of food cropland.

But if you're expecting a mass movement led by government or corporate America, it isn't going to happen. Again, too much investment in the fossil fuel sector.

So it is up to us, you and me to lead the way and lead us out of fossil fuel hell. Do what you can. If you have a house and some land, install solar panels, a wind turbine or both. If you're in the market for a new vehicle, make it diesel powered and mix up your own biodiesel. Conserve, conserve, conserve. Use the power of the market to bring about change, for if corporations see an opportunity for another dollar, they will follow bringing their lapdogs in Congress along with them.

So it is up to us, for we can no longer depned on our so called leaders.

[Initech]

34. I'd love to get my hands on a beater Mercedes or Volvo diesel.

And have it converted to biodiesel. That would kick ass.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. We need a massive society-wide committment to do this, and we'll get it done.

People can accomplish anything they set their minds to. I firmly believe that. The problem is, the entrenched interests (helped, of course, by a streak of neo-luddism and science ignorance in the population at large) are making massive profits off the status quo- and the entrenched interests own our government.

This needs to be our number one priority. Stop spending half a trillion a year on the M/I complex, $40 Billion a yr on the 'drug war', etc. And focus on THIS.

[lvx35]

36. Great point. The problem with much of the new tech is that its BS.

The other new tech is too expensive to implement.

We, or any other nation on earth, have not moved beyond fossil fuels because there is no viable substitute. All energy is nuclear. The fossil fuel energy came from our nuclear sun accumilated over millions of years, burned in decades. And we can't get that kind of energy out of renewable sources. We can have a lot of nuclear reactors, but the consequences of that will be terrible.