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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:16 AM
Original message
School uniforms could track students
where does it all end? . . .

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22284148-5001028,00.html

A SCHOOL uniform maker in England is considering adding satellite tracking devices to its clothing range so parents will always know where their children are.

The move comes after the Lancashire-based manufacturer Trutex commissioned an online survey of more than 800 parents and over 400 children aged between nine and 16.

It found 44 per cent of the adults were worried about the safety of their children and 59 per cent would be interested in uniforms with satellite tracking systems.

While nearly half of all pupils aged 12 and under said they would be prepared to wear the tracking devices in uniforms, teenagers were more wary.

- more . . .

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22284148-5001028,00.html
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nanny state to the max
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. So you think parents don't have the right to invest in this system if they so choose?
We aren't talking about making it mandatory.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. If, as a parent, you need one of these to control your child
Then your parenting has already failed.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think most parents fear abduction
How has a parent failed when their child is kidnapped?
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. A kidnapper would maybe be aware of these?
So now your kid would be snatched and naked. Great.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I honestly don't know the difference
Between a school calling parents when their kids do not show up, or a device telling parents where their kids are. One just gets done faster and more efficiently. If there is a problem with the technology (kidnappers knowing to dispose of the device) then that is a complaint with the inadequacy of the technology, but not the overall goal of parents knowing where their kids are. Either way it's the same.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I'm just not comfortable with "the man" knowing
all of the what, where and whens of our lives. Privacy means more than a slight security IMO.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. It condidtions
your child to accept this loss of freedom as a normal thing. There in lies the danger.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
40. I had to think on this a bit...
My parents always knew where to find me. The few times they couldn't I learned my lesson. I rode my bike everywhere (15 mile radius) explored my city and had FUN! Today kids are sheltered to the point that they know nothing except TV and video games. All because they may be snatched away.

Your child is more likely to fall out of bed and suffer a fatal injury from the bedside table.

The ideas of freedom, growth, and independence are far more important than the 1 in a billion chance of harm.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. Are most parents really that stupid?
That's a shame.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I worry about OTHER people, not my child.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. RFID chips. The mark of the beast!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID
RFID mandates
Wal-Mart and the United States Department of Defense have published requirements that their vendors place RFID tags on all shipments to improve supply chain management. Due to the size of these two organizations, their RFID mandates impact thousands of companies worldwide. The deadlines have been extended several times because many vendors face significant difficulties implementing RFID systems. In practice, the successful read rates currently run only 80%, due to radio wave attenuation caused by the products and packaging. In time it is expected that even small companies will be able to place RFID tags on their outbound shipments.

Since January, 2005, Wal-Mart has required its top 100 suppliers to apply RFID labels to all shipments. To meet this requirement, vendors use RFID printer/encoders to label cases and pallets that require EPC tags for Wal-Mart. These smart labels are produced by embedding RFID inlays inside the label material, and then printing bar code and other visible information on the surface of the label.


Human implants

Hand with the planned location of the RFID chip
Just after the operation to insert the RFID tag was completedImplantable RFID chips designed for animal tagging are now being used in humans. An early experiment with RFID implants was conducted by British professor of cybernetics Kevin Warwick, who implanted a chip in his arm in 1998. Night clubs in Barcelona, Spain and in Rotterdam, The Netherlands, use an implantable chip to identify their VIP customers, who in turn use it to pay for drinks.

RFID implantee Amal Graafstra kick-started the DIY implant craze when he implanted a glass ampoule style EM4102 tag into his left hand in March 2005. He has since been named one of the top 25 influencersin the RFID industry. He regularly answers questions on his RFID Toys reader forum. The pictures shown to the right of this section are before and after photos of Amal's left hand.

In 2004, the Mexican Attorney General's office implanted 18 of its staff members with the Verichip to control access to a secure data room. (This number has been variously mis-reported as 160 or 180 staff members.<13> <14>)

Security experts are warned against using RFID for authenticating people due to the risk of identity theft. For instance a man-in-the-middle attack would make it possible for an attacker to steal the identity of a person in real-time. Due to the resource-constraints of RFIDs it is virtually impossible to protect against such attack models as this would require complex distance-binding protocols.


RFID in libraries
Among the many uses of RFID technologies is its deployment in libraries. This technology has slowly begun to replace the traditional barcodes on library items (books, CDs, DVDs, etc.). However, the RFID tag can contain identifying information, such as a book’s title or material type, without having to be pointed to a separate database (but this is rare in North America). The information is read by an RFID reader, which replaces the standard barcode reader commonly found at a library’s circulation desk. The RFID tag found on library materials typically measures 50 mm X 50 mm in North America and 50 mm x 75 mm in Europe, and can also act as a security device, taking the place of the more traditional electromagnetic security strip.<15>

While there is some debate as to when and where RFID in libraries first began, it was first proposed in the late 1990s as a technology that would enhance workflow in the library setting. Rockefeller University in New York may have been the first academic library in the United States to utilize this technology, whereas Farmington Community Library may have been the first public institution, both of which began using RFID in 1999. Worldwide, the United States utilizes RFID in libraries more than any other nation, followed by the United Kingdom and Japan. It is estimated that over 30 million library items worldwide now contain RFID tags, including some in the Vatican Library in Rome.<16>

RFID has many applications in libraries that can be highly beneficial, particularly for circulation staff. Since RFID tags can be read through an item, there is no need to open a book cover or DVD case to scan an item. This would help alleviate injuries such as repetitive strain injury that can occur over many years. Since RFID tags can also be read while an item is in motion, using RFID readers to check-in returned items while on a conveyor belt reduces staff time. Furthermore, inventories could be done on a whole shelf of materials within seconds, without a book ever having to be taken off the shelf.<17>. In Umeå, Sweden, it is being used to aid visually impaired people borrow audiobooks<18>. In Malaysia, Smart Shelves are used to pinpoint the exact location of books in Multimedia University Library, Cyberjaya<19>.

However, this technology remains cost prohibitive for many smaller libraries, and the conversion time has been estimated at 11 months for an average size library. With RFID taking a large burden off staff, it has also been shown to produce a threat to staff that their job duties have been replaced by technology,<16> but the threat is not realized in North America where recent surveys have not returned a single library that cut staff because of adding RFID. In fact, library budgets are being reduced for personnel and increased for infrastructure, making it necessary for libraries to add automation to compensate for the reduced staff size.

A concern surrounding RFID in libraries that has received considerable publicity is the issue of privacy. Because RFID tags can in theory be scanned and read from over 350 feet in distance, and because RFID utilizes an assortment of frequencies, there is a legitimate concern over whether sensitive information could be collected from an unwilling source. However, advocates of RFID’s use in libraries will point out that library RFID tags do not contain any patron information,<20> and that the tags used in the majority of libraries use a frequency only readable from approximately ten feet.<15> There is much yet to be written and discussed on the issue of privacy and RFID, but it is clear that vendors need to be aware of this issue and develop improved technologies for secure RFID transactions.


Other
Some hospitals use Active RFID tags to perform Asset Tracking in Real Time.<21>
The NEXUS and SENTRI frequent traveler programs use RFID to speed up landborder processing between the U.S. and Canada and Mexico. <22>
NADRA has developed an RFID-based driver license that bears the license holders personal information and stores data regarding traffic violations, tickets issued, and outstanding penalties. The license cards are designed so that driving rights can be revoked electronically in case of serious violations.<23>
Sensors such as seismic sensors may be read using RFID transceivers, greatly simplifying remote data collection.
In August 2004, the Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction (ODRH) approved a $415,000 contract to evaluate the personnel tracking technology of Alanco Technologies. Inmates will wear wristwatch-sized transmitters that can detect attempted removal and alert prison computers. This project is not the first rollout of tracking chips in US prisons. Facilities in Michigan, California and Illinois already employ the technology.
Automatic timing at mass sports events "ChampionChip".
Used as storage for a video game system produced by Mattel, "HyperScan".
RFIQin, designed by Vita Craft, is an automatic cooking device that has three different sized pans, a portable induction heater, and recipe cards. Each pan is embedded with a RFID tag that monitors the food 16 times per second while a MI tag in the handle of the pans transmits signals to the induction heater to adjust the temperature.
Slippery Rock University is using RFID tags in their students' ID cards beginning in the fall 2007 semester.
Many more applications can be found in the literature.<24>
25 real world application case studies can be found in a 61 page free Ebook RFID Technology Applications
RFID tags is now being embeded into playing cards that are used for televisied poker tournamnets, so comentators know exactly what cards has been dealt to whom, as soon as the deal is complete.
The Iraqi army uses an RFID security card that contains a biometric picture of the soldier. The picture in the chip must match the picture on the card to prevent forgery.<25>
Theme parks (such as Alton Towers in the United Kingdom) have been known to use RFID to help them identify users of a ride in order to make a dvd of their time at the park. This is then avalible for the user to buy at the end of the day. This is voluntary by the user by wearing a wristband given to them at the park.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID

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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Any info on guns with RFID?
Or will they be the last things to have it?
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. You mean "smart guns"? n/t
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. No, I mean guns that can be tracked
But come to think of it, I guess in many hypothetical scenarios, that would defeat the purpose of having a gun in the first place.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. RFID is close-range only
You could do some sort of "smart gun" thing where the gun only goes off when an RFID chip is held close to the gun, but that's about it.

A LoJack for guns is a good idea, but considering how small a gun is (compared to a car) and having to power it, I don't think it's practical yet.

Maybe one day, some sort of GPS beacon could be developed. It would work if the mechanical firing mechanism was replaced with an electronic one, because then the GPS beacon could be incorperated into the circuitry.

Remington did this a few years ago, call it "ElectronX". The ammunition had primers that were detonated by a spark instead of the impact of a firing pin, and the "trigger" was really a switch. Squeeze the trigger, and an electronic pulse set off the ammunition.

If you combined that ignition system with a built-in remotely-activated GPS beacon (so you couldn't disable the GPS without disabling the gun) you'd have something.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:46 AM
Original message
So 44% of parents are worried for the safety of their children.
What is the percentage of children abducted that causes this fear? .01% maybe?

Due to the media hyping, the fear is way out of line with the actual threat. A kid is liklier to be struck by lightning than be abducted.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
38. Thank you!
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think it's a great idea, mostly for younger children.
Those teenagers might not want it, but I bet they'd be really friggin happy they had it if they were kidnapped and the police were able to immediately track them down.

Kids shouldn't have the same degree of freedom as adults - they are more vulnerable and more likely to make bad choices and get into situations in which they cannot defend themselves.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. The thing is is that this is simply an early step on the road to total control
First we chip our dogs, because Fido can't talk, then we chips our children, for their own safety of course. By this time large percentages of the population are saying, like you, that it is for the best. Once people are used to that idea, then we chip the old folks, the child molesters, the criminals and ex-cons. Before you know it, you're lining up at the local health clinic getting ready to be chipped yourself, wondering how you got there and how our society devolved into a police state.

This is nothing more than standard psychological conditioning, desensitizing people to the outrageous until they start to think it is normal. Sadly, it seems as though many, many people are falling for it. Even sadder, they fall for it time and again.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. I'm well beyond student age, but I know that if these were around
when I was a student my first bad choice would be to find the damn thing and throw it away.

Seriously, any kid over 9 yrs old is going to be cutting them out, microwaving their clothes, etc., to get rid of these things. The odds of being kidnapped by someone other than a non-custodial parent are absurdly low.

It's all a part of the surveilance society preparing them for RFID drivers licences and passports and implants when they are adults. Need to track soldiers on the battlefield? Implant RFID chips in 3 million servicemen. Need to keep track of convicts? Implant RFID chips in 2.5 million prisoners.

You start with those who cannot protest. Like servicemen. Or prisoners. Or children.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. wrong!
Having been a kid in my past, I made choices based on the teachings of my parents. Every way of control was put to a test, but the choices between right and wrong always came down to the values I was taught at home. This is a form of control, not safety.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. Prepping the kids for a lifetime of surveillance...
Remember that old Max Headroom episode where a young woman was arrested just because she didn't have a personnel file in the central government registry? The fact that her TV actually had a prohibited on/off switch didn't help her, either.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
19. This sounds too much like "Big Brother" for me to feel comfortable
with it. If they start the kids out young enough with constant surveillance, the better the chances that they won't object to it later in life, especially if it's done "for their own good". I would certainly resist the idea if I still had children in the school system.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
20. I have a weird question -- what if this were natural?
If humans could naturally know the location of their family members and people they care about through some kind of mental radar would it then be okay? Or something to be ashamed of?

Also...

Is this really that different from other technologies, like being able to instantly communicate across the globe with phone and then later the Internet?

People a long time ago may have felt threatened by writing because it would be used to record their actions which might have made them feel violated in some fashion.

Maybe using wheels for transportation made people feel like that technology would be used in harmful ways, like invading another's private territory.

I guess all technology can be used in harmful ways, but it should be embraced for what good it can accomplish and not feared.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Wow. 4 strawman arguments in a single post.
Is that a record?

1) Fantasy.
2) This isn't communication - it is more akin to eavesdropping - it is non-consensual on the part of the chipped.
3) This is not about feeling threatened - it is about being tracked. There is no comparison because outside the "writer's" direct observation, the "writee" was not tracked.
4) A silly anology, as the technologies are not in any way comparable in intent or use.

The problem is not with anti-tech luddites - it is with this technology being used by the surveilance society. Privacy is a human right and should be safeguarded as such.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. You seem to know exactly where to draw the line
I'm not as talented, apparently. Since privacy is such an extreme issue, it seems like parents might as well just give up. After all, the kids have a right to privacy so there's no much we can do. We can't know where they are, who they talk to, or I suppose check their hair for lice either, since it seems that be a violation of their privacy.

If parents have to respect their kids' privacy in all manners, why not just give them up to the state. After all, it seems like everyone else has made up their minds exactly how they all should be raised.

Seriously, I do think this is utter techno-phobia.

It will vary from family to family, or job to job, but parties should have a right to decide and do what they want.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Tell you what, can I track your every movement
Everywhere you go, no matter where you go or when? That is where this is leading to, and in some case is already happening. If you have a cell phone in a big city, you are probably already being tracked. Thanks, but I think that the Fourth Amendment and right to privacy has been trashed enough, I don't want to see it completely disappear.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. Yes, it is quantitatively different. Calling someone is NOT THE SAME AS the GOVERNMENT's knowing
your whereabouts.
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
21. don't want my kid, my car, my shopping, my ANYTHING tracked-f*ck the Big Brother mentality nt
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
23. what a bunch of paranoid freaks and/or dunderheaded fools

No, not parents and children in the UK, and clothing manufacturers investigating what products they would be willing to buy.



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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Sounds like someone who wants to be tracked 24/7!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. sounds like somebody who couldn't speak

the truth if his/her life depended on it!

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Do you mean me? I thought I did pretty well interpreting your ambiguous post.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. hmm, did you mean me?

If you have a basis for asserting that I sound like someone who wants to be tracked 24/7, I expect you'll offer it. Otherwise, I expect you'll retract the assertion.

HAHAHAHAHA! Someone at DU retract a false assertion made about another DU member for which s/he had not a shred of evidence. Good one!

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. To be fair, your post could be interpreted to mean that you have
no problem with everybody else being tracked 24/7. Excluding yourself, of course.

In the posts above many of us have outlined our concerns about total surveilance. Instead of offereing a gratuitous slap about paranoid dunderheads you might actually address those arguments. Why are YOU not afraid of the surveilance society?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. ooooh, good one
Why are YOU not afraid of the surveilance society?

Hmm, I dunno. Why don't you stop beating your dog?

Some people I really do expect better of.

Some people I do of course expect to read an article about market research being done by a company that produces school uniforms and start shrieking that the gummint of the UK hates all the citizens of that country and plans to intern everyone whom it catches on camera spitting on the sidewalk and it's all just a big plot to crush the freedom-loving people of the great and good USofA.

What I don't know is how the fuck I could ever read such complely unbalanced / insincere shrieking and "address" it. It ain't "argument".

There may well be a discussion to be had about the appropriate limits of official surveillance of members of the public. Hell, there may be a discussion to be had about the appropriate limits of private surveillance of members of the public, something that people in the US hereabouts don't ever seem to notice, let alone get worked up about.

An article about market research being done by a company that produces school uniforms doesn't strike me as germane to that discussion much.


To be fair, your post could be interpreted to mean that you have no problem with everybody else being tracked 24/7. Excluding yourself, of course.

If you call that remark "fair", I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to be speaking different languages. I would call it evidence that someone is either too dim or too disingenuous to be safe out, if I'd seen it being made by the usual suspects.

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
28. Camel's nose.... The UK is a testing-ground for the US. Tracking EVERY English car is now done.
Edited on Tue Sep-04-07 12:03 PM by WinkyDink
The Brits are the world's most observed, via government cameras mounted on public structures.

School uniforms? Why? Would cause celebre Madeleine have been wearing hers in Portugal? I think not.

THUS, to allay "kidnapping" fears (SOOOOO many children are abducted from SCHOOL), parents will be "persuaded" that all children's clothing will need to be "tagged".

And let's not forget Gramps, who is a tad fuzzy-headed.

Only the actual GOVERNMENT (PM/President, Parliament/ Congress) and the wealthy will live unobserved and untracked.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. yes, once again, everything that happens anywhere in the big wide world


IS REALLY ABOUT THE U.S. OF A. And is really about something horrible being done to U.S.Americans, or that has been done to U.S.Americans, or that is about to be done to U.S.Americans ...

Really, the entire world outside those US borders is just a virtual reality inhabited by billions of holographic images designed for testing out bad shit that somebody wants to do to you.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/05/gps_car_tracking/

The only stories I find about this tale date from 2005, when what you talk about as a fact was a proposal.

Do you have some proof that the fact you assert -- "Tracking EVERY English car is now done" -- is actually, um, a fact?

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Hey, if I got something wrong, let's call it an error. But your outrageous post calling me
Edited on Tue Sep-04-07 12:20 PM by WinkyDink
a liar?

Fill in the blank, pal.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
37. This doesn't bother me as much as the folks who are determined to tell consenting adults what they
can or can't do with their own bodies, what they can read, watch, etc.

Kids don't have the same rights as adults, and they don't have the same rights when they're in school.

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