Whoopi just lost me as a fan.

[ceile]

Sorry if this is a dupe-I searched and did not see that anyone had posted about this.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14040573/detail.html

"Whoopi Goldberg Defends Vick"

"Goldberg pointed out that Vick was raised in the South."

I was raised in the South, as were all my friends, and I don't know ANYONE who was involved in this sort of thing. Cultural my ass!

[wndycty]

1. Did you watch The View

She did not defend Vick, she explained the mindset. If you want to go ahead and have knee jerk reaction to a headline then go ahead but watch the show.

[ceile]

18. My "knee jerk" reaction came from reading the article.

Are you telling me she didn't say those things?

"This is a kid who comes from a culture when(sic) this is not questioned." Sounds like defense to me. It's not cultural-she's looking for an excuse.

[Mike Daniels]

25. If she's not defending it she sure seems to be justifying his mind-set

by trying to spin it as cultural.

I grew up in Virginia Beach from age 6 to 29 and Virginia Beach by that time was no longer a resort strip but a full-blown suburban community (most of it at least a good 20-30 minute drive by interstate from any ocean or bay-front water).

I never knew any of my friends (or friends of those friends) of any minority race to be into dog-fighting. Given that Newport News is a 30 minute car ride by interstate from Virginia Beach and is part of the same general region the cultural elements aren't that significantly different.

Has even just one of Vick's high profile peers actually condemned his behavior?

[alfredo]

40. You won't find such things in the suburbs. You have to go to rural

areas. When I was a kid we had cock fighting and dog fighting. I'm not deep south, but there was some of the same mentality. We also had moonshiners with underground stills.

I heard Woopie and it did sound like she was showing that he was a product of his upbringing. She wasn't justifying his actions, but she understands why he may not have understood what those outside of his community did understand.

There's some "odd" subcultures in small rural communities. Vick may have come from one of those isolated communities that live by their own societal rules. Take a trip through southeastern Indiana, or up in the mountains of eastern Ky. Report back.

Or
Watch some of these videos.

http://folkstreams.net/

In many areas in the US and other parts of the world, dogs are not pets, they are beast of burden or for hunting. Yes, in some areas they are food.
You won't find many in Africa that keep dogs as pets.

[iamthebandfanman]

53. thats just not true

ive meet many-a-white suburbanites who talked about getting pitbulls to fight each other. infact i had a bunch of friends when i was in high school(late 90s) who went out and got pitbulls to be 'cool' i guess.

maybe you just dont HEAR about those things in the suburbs.

and as far as her only explaing a 'mindset'... yeah the mindset of a sick bastard.

anyone who can hurt an animal , could hurt a person.

they deserve either prison or mental help.
whichever bests suites their case.

theres no excuse AT ALL , not culturally not economically and not socially.
hes a sick F^#$ , deal with it.

[alfredo]

70. As a general rule about all you find in the suburbs is some vandalism

and maybe a grow room in a basement. Dog fights make too much noise for most suburban locations.

[Pathwalker]

79. Um, not necessarily - it's in all FIFTY states.

Link: http://www.evilmonito.com/013/method/one.htm
Headquartered mainly in and around post-industrial urban centers such as New York City, Boston, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and New Orleans, illegal dogfighting often boasts players whose ties include and are not limited to illicit gun sales, gambling rings and extensive drug networks. A New York State Humane Association article states, “In a recent raid, police arrested 250 people, found 69 handguns, various illegal drugs, and a half million dollars in cash” (“Cockfighting and Dogfighting-Workshop on Blood Sports” par. 4). More often than not, dogfights are staged in large abandoned warehouses and almost always employ the most popular breed of fighter—the American Pit Bull Terrier. In the same Cincinnati Enquirer article, Don Knapp, Director of the Capital Area Humane Society in Columbus, Ohio states, “Dogfighting is a family event, often held in a large warehouse,” he said. “Children watch and there can be concession stands at one end, gambling somewhere else, and over in this corner they’ll be selling cocaine and crack” (“Authorities concerned about rise in dogfighting” par. 16).

Though the majority of organized dogfighting matches are staged in and around urban areas, the players often come from varied backgrounds. In a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article, writer Jonathan D. Silver briefly discusses both the social breakdown of the culture as well as its organization. “Nationally, experts speculate that dogfighting occurs in all 50 states. It cuts across racial and socioeconomic lines, sometimes attracting middle class individuals, police officers and professional athletes, experts say.” Silver also cites a quote from Jacque Schultz, director of special projects for the animal sciences department of the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals that states, “There are many facets of society involved in dogfighting. It can be casual street fights, which you’ll see a lot in inner-city areas—I’ve got a bad dog, you’ve got a bad dog, we’ll turn them loose in an alley and put some money on it—to incredibly highly controlled, publicized, carefully scheduled underground enterprises, almost like the World Series of dogfighting” (Silver, par. 10, 11).

Here's another handy link that's full of actual facts on dogfighting:
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusdogfighting.htm

Here in Mid-Michigan it IS in the suburbs - I've heard about it for years, and once petted a puppy that was being raised as a fighter - the owner was so angry at the puppy for accepting my affection that he killed it. I still hate him for that.

[alfredo]

81. I can see where dog fighting can take place in industrial areas. Many

Southerners moved north to the rust belt and brought their ways with them. I remember Pontiac Michigan was like being back in Kentucky, except for the brutal winters.

When I say suburbs I am talking about mile after mile of green lawn Mc Mansions and starter homes.

[Pathwalker]

84. I live very close to those McMansions - they have them, too.

Here in Michigan, it's in the cities, the suburbs, the country and runs through every social and racial boundary. They're everywhere, and the worst part is - they laugh at anyone who expresses outrage over it. I know - I've been laughed at over it.

[alfredo]

86. That sucks. I lived in Detroit and Pontiac, two cities were you didn't

take your business on the streets, and you kept well away from other people's business. There's a lot of pushed people there, and it doesn't take much to make them push back.

Great music though.

[iamthebandfanman]

90. right

well i didnt say the fight itself necessarily occured there... but if u think that people from the suburbs arent participating in them then ur greatly mistaken

[Warpy]

41. Understanding where he came from and justifying his behavior

are two different things. She knows the kind of brutal background that some people in the south (and southwest, actually) come from. She knows how such incredibly vicious behavior can seem normal to somebody from that background.

I understand where a lot of people are coming from when they do awful things. If they are open to being educated about them, then they can rejoin the rest of us after they pay the price.

People who don't come from that background and seek out this sort of thing are less likely to be educable.

In any case, good people get to be wrong, and if Whoopi was wrong about this, it's one of the first times she's been wrong about much of anything.

I can cope.

[ProudDad]

98. Or just rent "Deliverance" (n/t)

[iverglas]

35. perhaps

she was looking for an EXPLANATION. The world is really just ever so slightly more complicated than "he's stupid" / "she's evil" / "they're stupid AND evil", when it comes to understanding why most people do things and why most things happen.

Perhaps she was suggesting that the culture in question was not good, in at least some aspects, like the one that leads to some of its members believing it's okay to treat animals as Vick did.

Perhaps she was suggesting that in order to change individual behaviour, the social conditions that teach or condone that behaviour, or make it appear to individuals to be acceptable or even necessary, need to be addressed.

"This is a kid who comes from a culture when(sic) this is not questioned." Sounds like defense to me.

Actually, it looks like a statement of fact, or at least an assertion of something as fact, to me.

It's not cultural-she's looking for an excuse.

Yeah, it's eminently reasonable to assume/assert that Whoopi Goldberg wants to excuse animal cruelty.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/238879/humane_hollywood_stars_who_shine_for.html

Humane Hollywood: Stars Who Shine for Animal's Rights

... Numerous celebrities have shown support for the Humane Society, including, but not limited to:

Robin Williams, who supported the Dolphin Safe Tuna campaign, Dixie Carter for Fur Free, Sarah Gilbert, Whoopi Goldberg, and Montel Williams, to name just a few.

http://www.abolitionist-online.com/interview-issue03_bite.back_jennifer.pryor.shtml

Bite Back: Who's your favorite Hollywood animal rights supporter of all time?

Jennifer Pryor: I admire anyone who stands up to be counted because there are always risks involved. We love Martin Sheen who is a great supporter of The Sea Shepherd and those brave souls. Mary Tyler Moore speaks about animals having emotions and souls. Whoopi Goldberg just signed on to save the Wild Mustangs and end Horse Slaughter. I could go on... there are many and there is a growing awareness in the Hollywood Community regarding Animal Rights. ...

http://www.hsus.org/about_us/celebrity_support/stars_for_animals.html

Stars for Animals

Many celebrities have helped The HSUS and our efforts to protect animals. And all of them have at least two traits in common: they're animal friendly and willing to demonstrate their support for The HSUS.

Animal Friendly Celebrities:

... Whoopi Goldberg (First Strike)

Maybe she actually just knows what she's talking about.

[ceile]

51. Where did I say that she was excusing animal curelty?

I am very aware of her animal rights work. I'm upset that she is excusing his behavior (and given her work she should be a vocal critic). Using that environment/culture excuse is a cop out.

[iverglas]

55. I give up

Where did I say that she was excusing animal curelty? ... I'm upset that she is excusing his behavior

This is kind of like trying to answer one of these loaded questions ... but I'll take a shot.

His behaviour amounted to animal cruelty. If you are claiming that she excused his behaviour, then you are claiming that she excused animal cruelty. Have I gone sadly astray here somewhere?

You use the phrase this sort of thing in your initial post. I give up. Are you talking about something completely different from the animal cruelty committed by Vick?

You quote from the article to which you linked:

"Whoopi Goldberg Defends Vick"
"Goldberg pointed out that Vick was raised in the South."

Looks like an attempt to portray what she said rather simplistically, I'd say. She also said:

"You know from his background this is not an unusual thing for where he comes from." -- i.e. not just "the South", but "his background" and "where he comes from", which I, myself, would take to mean quite a lot more than just "the South".

"It seemed like a light went off in his head when he realized that this was something the entire country really didn't appreciated, didn't like."

"This is a kid who comes from a culture when this is not questioned."

To pretend that different cultures don't have different standards when it comes to the treatment of animals, and that individuals do not tend to absorb and share the values conveyed to them by their cultures, would be disingenuous.

Now here's a thing. It is quite possible to hold values like "it is not wrong to cause animals to suffer gratuitously", and still never cause animals to suffer gratuitously. Whether because one never happens to get around to doing it, or because it makes one personally uncomfortable, or simply because it is illegal and one tends not to break laws. That's one reason we have laws, actually: so that people who might otherwise act on their own values in ways that the broad society considers unacceptable may be deterred from doing it.

Vick broke laws. He may have been unaware it was illegal to treat animals the way he did, although that might seem hard to believe.

The damned thing is that until very recently in human history, it was neither illegal nor regarded as "wrong" to treat animals the way he did in our own culture, i.e. the broader northern/western-European / North American kinda culture.

My grandfather, the kindest and "good"est person you could ever have wanted to meet, drowned kittens during the depression because the family had pet cats but could not afford to keep their kittens. (Abandoning them to starvation had already been discarded by that generation, but a family that sent the kids to politely ask for bones "for the dog" from the local butcher, to make soup for supper, had probably hever heard of sterilizing pets). Until one day when he swore he would never do that again. My mother had a cat euthanized in the 60s because we could not afford to have it spayed (by then, we didn't even think about drowning animals) and after that one time she swore she'd never do it again. I feed feral cats and find homes for the ones my neighbours abandon. Quite possibly my great-great-grandparents beat their dogs.

There IS a cultural aspect to how people treat animals, just as there is to everything else we do. To deny that people are influenced by their culture -- and in this case a culture that there is ample evidence did not condemn what Vick did -- is just to deny reality.


Using that environment/culture excuse is a cop out.

Yes, it would be, if someone did it.

But so is denying the influence of environment/culture on individuals' behaviour - a cop out.

All it does is allow the person doing it to cop out of doing anything but pointing fingers and blaming, and that's just so productive when it comes to fixing problems. Not.

If the problem here isn't just Vick's behaviour, but widespread cruelty to animals, pointing fingers at Vick and getting outraged at people "defending" his behaviour might just not be as productive as taking a look at what might be contributing to and perpetuating that behaviour.

[donheld]

101. She never excused his behavior at all.

She simply was trying to share the perspective of his and far too many others. She didn't excuse it at all.

[astonamous]

93. Email from Jennifer Pryor to Whoopi...

Dear Tom: (Whoopi's assistant)
I loved her shirt!
I love her!
By now, I am sure you know there is a firestorm...the rescue community has lost it's mind on her comments regarding Vick.

I won't forward you the emails as I am sure you have seen some of them...

Whoopi had a monumental opportunity to come out against this horrendous case of animal cruelty and the practice of dog fighting.
She pretty much compared what Vick did to those in Puerto Rico, who engage in another horrific crime of cock-fighting. It is not a sport and the world does not view it as such. This criminal activity which has led to the serious criminal charges and plea deal Vick has now has made, has shocked and saddened the nation.
I would hope that Whoopi could speak out against this and defend the voiceless...these dogs are not property or chattel. They are caring, loving, creatures who don't ask to be tortured and mistreated and killed.
I think Whoopi has some soul-searching to do and some research....
As an African American friend said to me recently:
"Isn't this what they did to us? Treat us like their property, treat us inhumanely, for their own amusement?"

Please Tom, this is very serious...I hope Whoopi looks closely at this for what it is---90% of the homes in this country own dogs...we are a nation of animal lovers!
It is time to take a stand against this monstrous blood-letting.

Please send my love to Whoopi.

I remain a friend who hopes for her, a raised consciousness.

JLP

[iverglas]

112. we did all note what she did *not* say?

She didn't say that Goldberg defended Vick. She didn't say that Goldberg excused Vick. She didn't say that Goldberg blamed Vick's culture for what Vick did. She didn't accuse Goldberg of being an apologist for animal torture.

It actually is possible to discuss people and things without falsifying facts and making baseless accusations.

It isn't entirely clear what she meant by "the rescue community has lost it's mind on her comments regarding Vick", unfortunately. She could mean they're tearing their hair out in a paroxysm of distress, she could mean they've abandoned all reason. Probably the former. I'd say both, myself.

(I find the reference to African-American history somewhat inappropriate. It is entirely reasonable to talk about how human empathy has developed along a continuum, the abolition of slavery being a major milestone on that continuum, as are the rejection of child abuse and the rejection of violence against women, and the rejection of severing body parts as punishment for crimes, and of the death penalty, and the adoption of various social welfare measures. I'm not sure that comparing animal abuse directly to the enslavement of African-Americans is wise in general, or specifically in the US context.)

Her point seems to have been that Goldberg should have spoken out more strongly against Vick and what he did. There seem to be adequate numbers of people doing that. I think it's always worth pointing out when someone's behaviour is consistent with the values conveyed by his/her culture, if we actually want people to stop behaving in similar ways and find a way of accomplishing that. From some of the reports in this thread, it doesn't seem that putting Michael Vick in the stockade in the public square has actually had much influence on anyone else's behaviour so far.

I haven't been able to see the exchange that happened on the program, and I'd have to do that before having a specific opinion about what Goldberg did, of course. But I mean, really, she's an actor, not an anthropologist or social policy expert, and it might be a bit much to expect her to have presented a cogent and complete analysis of the phenomenon of animal abuse in the US South and program for dealing with it. I think that on balance it is still useful that the perspective she apparently attempted to bring be added to the mix, and that it was more the response of the other host to what she said - basically, dismissing it in favour of blaming - that was problematic. There could have been some actual discussion of the nature of the problem she raised, and how to address it. There wasn't.

The fact that every article that Google News brings up on a search contains the word "defends" between Goldberg and Vick suggests that the real true blue 'Murikan sport of blaming is still the favourite.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Maybe you should have read it more critically.

Maybe then you wouldn't have had such a knee jerk reaction.

[ceile]

66. I'll remember your "advice" for next time.

The next time I disagree with what someone says and decide that I no longer feel the need to respect them, I'll think back to such sage words.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. What part do you disagree with?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Where was the part where she defending Michael Vick?

[CatWoman]

3. I was raised in Portsmouth, VA

Vick was raised in Newport News, some 20 minutes away.

I can personally attest to "that sort of thing" going on in that part of the country.

[angstlessk]

13. And I live in Norfolk, VA and the men proudly walk their 'winning'

dogs around the neighborhood...the dogs all are mottled or black and have the body of bulldogs and the heads of rotweilers!

[CatWoman]

15. Hi there, Homey

:hi:

How's the weather?

I no longer live in Portsmouth, but have a lot of family there.

I miss the ocean :-(

[angstlessk]

21. It's warm but not intollerable today...been the hottest summer in 100

years the weatherman here tells us. My mom used to live in Portsmouth, down from Victory Blvd!

[CatWoman]

23. I used to live out that way, too

in Cavalier Manor :)

[angstlessk]

24. My husband's parents currently live in Cavalier Manor! small world

!!! HI from a fellow Tidewaterian or is that Tidewaterer?

[CatWoman]

30. I thought we were Old Dominicans

:)

[Virginia Dare]

52. Fair enough, but here is where Vick lost his way..

he was one of the lucky ones who got out of the projects of Newport News. He went to Virginia Tech and was hailed as a hero by a mostly white student population. He then went to the city of Atlanta and was paid a whole bunch of money not only by the NFL as an athlete, but also by corporations to act as a spokesperson and by proxy as a role model for young kids, many of whom are African American.

He had the opportunity to get an education, both academically and culturally and to perhaps open up his eyes and see that maybe some things that he may have grown up thinking as acceptable really aren't or shouldn't be. Apparently that is the opportunity he lost.

[CatWoman]

56. Virginia,

I'm not trying to defend him, I'm just trying to explain where it came from.

I live in Atlanta, and I'm sick of the "all Vick, all the time" coverage.

The guy fucked up. Period. Hopefully he has learned his lesson and we can all move on.

[Virginia Dare]

110. Yep, well said...

I'm done with trying to explain or understand how all of this happened, he's paying the price, on to more important things. :hi:

[ecstatic]

4. you were never her fan nt

[ceile]

19. Don't assume to know me. n/t

[ananda]

5. People actually watch that crappy show??!!

The mind boggles.

[valerief]

6. My reaction, too. nt

[tammywammy]

9. Ditto n/t

[bridgit]

10. ding!

[hlthe2b]

7. Jamie Foxx defended him too... for similar "cultural" reasons...

I find that premise embarrassingly condescending to African Americans, but that's me....


I know quite well dog fighting (and cock fighting) is prevalent in the South--certainly among caucasians as much or more than African Americans.

[beltanefauve]

34. Dog fighting

and cock fighting are very big in Rhode Island too. In the neighborhoods I lived in the pit bulls and Banti cocks were raised by predominantly Caucasian males of Italian-American descent and other ethnic groups; hardly considered a "Black" thing. One of my neighborhoods had backyard dog pens behind the triple-deckers. In another part of town, (Providence), I rescued a hen that had escaped and had been used for breeding.

[w8liftinglady]

8. I'm watching it on CNN.

I was raised in the south,too.The people I knew who condoned dogfighting and cockfighting were thugs,felons and drug dealers.No race-because where I came from,it transcended the race barrier,but not the sleaze barrier.Sorry,but the clip I saw didn't condemn the behavior,it defended it.

[Clark2008]

14. Exactly.

[hlthe2b]

27. Yes... you are right...

It is not race that correlates with this behavior. It is propensity for illegal, sleazy activity.

[emilyg]

31. I agree.

[renie408]

47. It sounded to me like she was defending it, also. And what is all this 'Deep South' crap??

Like the fact that he was from the rural South is supposed to make people say, "OOhhh, that explains it." I was born in Charleston, SC, grew up in Greenville, SC and Atlanta, GA and I live in upstate rural SC currently.

I have never electrocuted a dog and don't know anybody that has (or at least who admits it). To me this is like the Walking Horse thing.

[idgiehkt]

87. was he from a rural area?

and Newport News is not the deep south. People are getting so many things confused looking for justifications here, like they are grasping at straws.

What is the walking horse thing?

[angstlessk]

61. My grandfather used to take us to cock fights...it was the norm in southern

communities...and no worse than dog races where they put slow dogs to sleep or horse races...where they drug horses to run... or circus's for that matter...IT IT ALL CRUELTY TO ANIMALS..AND I AIN'T NO PETA lover!

[renie408]

65. I was born in Charleston, SC, grew up in Greenville, SC and Atlanta, GA and we now live in upstate

rural SC. I have never been to a dogfight and wouldn't know how to find one if I wanted to. I asked my son (a junior in high school) and he hasn't heard of anybody who is into dogfighting. I am sure it is happening, but to act like it is a common Southern experience is inaccurate.

[mondo joe]

11. Anyone who hosts The View has lost me as a fan.

:-)

[soothsayer]

43. lol! I call it The Coven but really I think that's an insult to witches

[Clark2008]

I was raised in the South, too.

I've heard a lot more about cock fighting than dog fighting - but neither were EVER mainstream.

Agreed - cultural my ass.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. The fact that you are well aware of it proves that it is a cultural thing.

This doesn't happen in a vacuum. It may be a sub-culture that you were not raised in, but it is there. It's not a slam against the south - like it's a "southern thing". It's not an attack on southern culture. But it does exist within a certain subset of southern culture.

[Clark2008]

48. No - I was aware of it because I was a CRIME reporter -

I'd never heard of it anywhere in my vicinity growing up.

You know where it exists now? In the inner cities - and they have those all over the United States.

[Clark2008]

12. DUPE

[mudesi]

16. Sigh...I miss Rosie

That Hasselbeck can't go on maternity leave soon enough...

[endarkenment]

22. It is breeding?

Yikes.

[Link93]

17. I do not see where she was defending his actions.

I can assure you that dogfighting does occur in Virginia though.

[qdemn7]

20. Dog fighting no, chicken fighting yes

I never knew, or even heard of anyone who engaged in dog fighting, when I used to live in a small Central Texas town back in the 70s-80s. But, there are still lots of people in Texas that fight chickens. "Cock fighting" is the proper term, but "Chicken fighting" is the term used by participants.

[RebelOne]

37. Cock fighting is also illegal.

[qdemn7]

54. So what?

Lots of things are illegal, people still engage in them. Using cannabis for one. The lesson Prohibition and the War on Drugs has taught us is that no matter what laws are passed for "sin crimes" people are still going to engage in that activity.

[TreasonousBastard]

26. Doesn't take much, does it? Fact is that dogfighting is...

big in some places and someone who grew up with it isn't easily going to have his mind changed.

Explaining the reason for an action isn't necessarily excusing it.

[idgiehkt]

88. you have to be a bit more specific

many people who were exposed to it as children don't necesarrily support it, and others who were not exposed to it as kids get into it as adults. And many who were exposed to it in their youths know full well it is illegal and take great steps to not get caught red-handed participating in those activities.

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. The same arguements could be used to justify membership in the KKK

[Zodiak]

29. ohhhhh it's Vick she's defending

Who cares? I'm sorry, but I cannot get my hackles up about Vick...too many HUUUUGE issues to deal with. He killed some dogs...put him in jail an let's move on.

At first I read Vick as "Vitter". Now if she was excusing Viter's behavior, then she might lose me as a fan.

[knowbody0]

32. my take:

she was not defending Vick. She was explaining that it was what he grew up with. not that the entire south promoted it. She was not forgiving or approving, only pointing out its acceptance in some cultures.

[TahitiNut]

36. It's really too bad Vick couldn't have been a bull-fighter instead.

:dunce:

[Buns_of_Fire]

38. But there's a world of difference between an EXPLANATION and an EXCUSE.

It's like the difference between understanding someone's actions and condoning those same actions. Understanding, I can do (hey, I LIVE amongst that culture). Condoning, I won't (which is why people who know me around here don't invite me to such "events" -- they know full well I'll turn 'em in to the _____ County Sheriff's Office in a split second).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. You have to expect that.

Some people just grow up in places where they just don't teach that sort of thing.

[rudeboy666]

44. Sort of like 9-11

Conservatives and reactionaries go crazy with any attempt to EXPLAIN the mindset (and its origins) that drive many individuals to commit murder.

They cannot distinguish between EXPLAINING and CONDONING.

[Hope springs eternal]

42. Racial prejuduce

rears it's ugly head. I'm sure White folk think KKK memberhsip is cultural too.....

Ass...

[liberati]

102. Yep, all this talk of "southern" culture.

"Southern culture" is often code for "black culture".

[DemGa]

45. Umm, yeah, Vick was on cultural autopilot

Until that "light went off in his head." Maybe Vick isn't too bright: This explanation then works. It is also possible Vick has very poor insight.

[Arkansas Granny]

46. I didn't watch the show, just saw a clip of the exchange on the news,

so I can't say if she was defending Vick or not. I can tell you that in my part of the south, dogfighting and cockfighting are both considered a sport by a certain segment of the population. The people who participate in these activities know that it's illegal, but it has gone on around here for generations and will likely continue. It's not done openly, but it still happens and race has nothing to do with it. It is a cultural thing.

[rudeboy666]

49. Bad Journalism

The headline and story diverge significantly.

The media has a tendency to do this type of thing.

[Bryn]

50. Another Black Eye for the South

I, too, was raised in the South. This is NOT the Cultural thing. Only bad people enjoy animal cruelty. I don't know anyone involved in this also...not my friends, not my family.

Whoopi, you've lost me! Bye! I am disgusted with you. Thanks a lot for giving the South a black eye which we didn't need.

[tears4terra]

92. Thank you Bryn!

I agree with everything you said. It's definitely not a cultural thing in MY South either. And Yup, Whoopi just lost me too.

[Thirtieschild]

57. Oklahoma...

In the mid-90s Mr. Disorganized and I drove through central Oklahoma; I was along for the ride, he was researching an article on OK outlaws. We drove down quite a few dirt roads, past houses with small metal coops in the yard, stakes in front. We were both astonished when we figured out that we were seeing cock fighting setups; I had no idea such things were still around, thought they were a remnant of the middle ages, long since gone.

[XemaSab]

68. They've got that in California

It's legal to breed fighting cocks, just illegal to FIGHT them. :eyes:

[Gruenemann]

58. Would Whoopi defend clitoridectomy?

After all, in some cultures it isn't questioned.

[sammythecat]

60. and add "honor killing" to the "do not touch" list,

because that, too, is a cultural issue. It's also a pity we weren't more tolerant of cannibalism and human sacrifice. How dare we! They were both cultural AND religious.

Honor killing: http://tinyurl.com/3h1s

Whoopi's, and others, defense of Vick's behavior on cultural grounds is infuriatingly ignorant. I'm severely disappointed in Whoopi.

[Vinca]

59. Since when is torturing dogs a southern tradition?

What a stupid thing to say.

[tears4terra]

104. Yes, a stupid and VERY ignorant thing to say.

Whoopi was born and raised in New York!
What makes her such an expert on Southern culture?

[mountainvue]

62. Really disappointed in her remarks. n/t

[Booster]

63. Well, that didn't take long.

[Lex]

69. Exactly my thoughts.

nt

[AtomicKitten]

71. Animal cruelty is NEVER okay.

[Disturbed]

75. Misleading Headline.

It seems that many Journalists want that sensational Headline & disregard the rest of someone's statement. Whoopie was not excusing Viks behavior &/or actions, she was trying to figure out his mindset. It's obvious that she doesn't condone what he did.

[Skittles]

99. I lived in the south for decades and don't know anyone who does such crap

whatever mindset they are, they are S C U M

[The Straight Story]

72. Michael Vick's School For Disobedient Dogs (video, parody)

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/edffdbe5d6

[earth mom]

73. Did we watch the same show? Because Whoopi did NOT defend Vick.

Whoopi clearly said that Vick didn't know any better. Or, in other words, Whoopi was saying that Vick is IGNORANT.

BTW-is the beginning of the smear fest of "liberal" Whoopi starting around DU? Because this is the second thread I've seen about this today. :eyes:

[Mike Daniels]

76. Then perhaps she should have left "culture" out of it

Because the "culture" that finds dog fighting permissive isn't that of the south or young black men as a whole but a very small subset of thuggish individuals that would probably find some other life form to torture if it wasn't dogs or chickens.

[idgiehkt]

89. wow....that is even worse: "Whoopi clearly said that Vick didn't know any better."

And people are supposed to believe that...that he didn't know any better. Even when his NFL contract explicitly forbids gambling?

Come ON. The guy knew better. Proof of that is that initially he lied to Goodell's face by telling him that he wasn't involved, and he initially pled 'not guilty'.

So I guess it begs the question. Can we not get our heads around, or do we not want to face, the fact that this man could be so ruthlessly cruel and inhumane. Are comments like these trying to give Vick back some of his humanity in reaction to the revelation of the brutal nature of the way those dogs were executed, because some people can't or won't face that he was cruel, ruthless, and sadistic? To me, this is not an explanation, it is a coping mechanism, pure and simple. I understand the need for it, but I still think it needs to be debunked.

[earth mom]

97. No-the point is that people are TWISTING what Whoopi said.

And it comes off as something the idiots on Faux News or freeperville would do. They are masters at twisting peoples words around-which we should all know and recognize after years of their b.s.

FYI, just to make it crystal clear: Whoopie did NOT defend any of Vick's inhumane actions, nor have I.

[Phoonzang]

74. Oh great now this is going to be the top news story

for the next week. The media will grab hold of an unimportant story like a pit bull grabs hold of its prey and just shake it to death with no consideration given to the facts. Oh...wait...maybe that was a bad analogy. O8)

[coco77]

77. So. Everyone doesn't have to crucify Vick...

the way you want them too. If he did the crime... but not the sentence some people hear having been stating, a dog is not more important than a human being and no I am not condoning what he is did or is alleged to have done. With what is going on in the world its not that damn important.For some reason I don't think that she will give a damn about losing you as a fan.Do you avoid certain movies because you disagree with the actors on certain issues.

[Bethany Rockafella]

78. Who is Vick?

And am I supposed to care?

[LiberalLovinLug]

80. No line between EXPLAINING and CONDONING in this instance

What if a white commentator, say Hasselbeck, had commented on some recent lynching of an african american, and "explained" that one has to "understand" that he lives in the Deep South, where they have a historical "culture" of lynching blacks.

To me that sounds the same as condoning the action.

What seems to go over Whoopi's head is that the point is not whether Vick's actions can be traced back to some "cultural" explanation, but that IT IS JUST DAMN WRONG TO TORTURE, MUTILATE, AND MURDER HELPLESS ANIMALS! whether your daddy did it or not.

[Little Star]

82. Chicken George from Alec Haley's book Roots

This is the thing that makes me think that animal fighting till the death is part of the black culture.

Not saying it's right but it does seem to give credence to a long, long culture.

It should be stopped!!

[depakid]

83. Reality check

I fail to see how she "defending Vick," and I'm also puzzled as to how anyone wouldn't recognize that in south- particularly certain subcultures- sort of deal goes on.

(btw: my whole family hails from there, and I've seen and heard about shit similar to this this repeatedly with my own eyes and ears)

[idgiehkt]

91. dog fighting is all over the U.S.

not regional. I grew up in the south, in VA, and never saw it or knew about it, but I know it happened. Likewise her qualifier 'if it were someone in New York I'd feel differently' is invalid, because dogs are fought in New York city and people would be just as quick to say that an inner city kid ( real kid, not a successful multi-millionaire) might be used to it being a part of his culture. Her statements are just a mess, which is what happens when you even attempt to excuse the inexcusable, people are going to take it apart.

I'm actually starting to get pissed because I'm wondering if it's that regional thing I've experienced many times in my life where yankees really do think southerners are stupid. Must be all the grits flying out of our mouths when we try to form complete sentences. Maybe we should have a flame war about that, too.

[BlooInBloo]

95. But for SOME reason, it ONLY became important because VICK did it.

[VLC]

96. Maybe to those who don't pay attention to it specifically

Animal protectionists have been working on it for years.

And yes, they are using this story to get media now. Wouldn't you? When the public is receptive and alert to it, that's when you can talk about it. Simple rule of public relations.

[TexasBushwhacker]

85. Well, I went and read the article ....

and if they are quoting correctly, I have a problem with this:

"This is part of his cultural upbringing," said Goldberg.

Co-host Elisabeth Hasselbeck said she was encouraged by the NFL suspending Vick indefinitely.

But Goldberg continued to defend Vick saying "This is a kid who comes from a culture where this is not questioned."

How would Whoopi feel if someone used the same explanation for hate crimes against African-Americans? In some places in the South, especially in small towns, being a Klan member isn't unusual either.

[BlooInBloo]

94. And then there were none.

[donheld]

100. See ya 'round Clown n/t

[B Calm]

103. No one in the media is talking about Vick. I say thank you Whoopi

for telling the world what he did..

[LWolf]

105. I'm not really a "fan" of anyone, but

I have a certain amount of respect for Whoopi. I also understand what she was saying. It doesn't excuse Vick; it explains.

There is a difference between explaining the roots of a behavior and condoning or excusing it.

People can understand something without supporting it.

[youthere]

106. I did not get that she was "defending"Vick.

Only giving an insight to why he might have thought this to be okay bahavior. For instance, my father was a humongous bigot..especially against the Jewish (which is funny considering I grew up in rural Wisconsin...not a lot of Jewish folks in my neck of the woods). God forbid anything should come up on the news regarding anyone with a "berg" or "stein" at the end of their names because it would send him off on a tangent.
But he was raised in a strict religious culture by parents who beat into his head day and night how anyone who was "not of our faith" was less than us and literally "condemned to hell". In fact it's in the official church doctrine.
So I don't excuse his bigotry, but I do understand where it comes from, and why he thought it was a normal mindset.

And as far as the "southern thing" goes, it is cultural. It's just a part of the southern culture you haven't been exposed to or have been a part of ...just like I'm sure there are plenty of Wisconsinites that haven't been exposed to the fundamental Lutheran culture...I wasn't part of the "beer drinking/snowmobiling" culture of Wisconsin nor were any of my friends..does that mean it doesn't exist?

[tears4terra]

107. Southern culture my ass!

What does Whoopi know about Southern culture. She's from New York!

It's like me (a Southerner) saying that mugging is just part of the New York culture. Those poor New Yorker's they don't even know it's wrong. It's how they were brought up, ya know? :grr:

[ProfessorGAC]

109. Well, I Sure Did

I don't buy the "mindset" argument, in this case. They were keeping it a big secret. They knew it was illegal. Trying to get "into his head" to explain his behavior is, indeed, parallel to finding an excuse.

The mindset to be examined is not why some guy got into dogfighting. It's why a young millionaire thought breaking the law was acceptable.

Whoopi's on the wrong track on this. She's not examining the right aspect of this.
The Professor

[youthere]

113. See I don't buy that...

plenty of people engage in illegal activity that see "nothing wrong with it". Just bring up the issue of marijuanna in GD some day. There are plenty of Du'ers that partake and believe it's stupid that it's against the law. They insist it's harmless and believe wholeheartedly that it should be legalized, yet as strongly as they believe that, I doubt very much if they would light up a joint in front of a police officer on any given day.

I really think that VIck DIDN'T believe there was anything wrong with it, even though it was illegal. He might have thought it was a "stupid" law...especially if he was raised around dogfighting (I don't know, was he?). It wasn't until it became such a media firestorm and he got suspended and (I'm sure) plenty of hate mail that it finally clicked that this is NOT okay and it is morally reprehensible (and for the record, I don't think he GOT it..I think he's just playing the part).
It reminds me of those little kids you see every now and again on the talk shows that are raised by white supremecists. They believe it's normal and okay to be bigoted and racist because that's how they were raised.

Personally I don't care WHY Vick did what he did..It was illegal and he was caught and he's paying the penalty. THAT is what is important. My take on that article was not Whoopi defending the actions though. It was more of a "What do you expect?" or "It really isn't surprising given the way he was raised" take on it.
I know people are sick of the Vick case getting so much attention, but maybe its a good thing. I have to honestly say I never knew there was such a thing as these dog-fighting rings. Not a clue. I was shocked it is as widespread as it is, and so the more coverage this Vick case gets and the more people learn about it, the better chance there is to stop it.

At any rate, I will read the article again and attempt to see it from a different perspective. Cheers.

[ProfessorGAC]

108. She Also Said "Deep South"

Is Virginia really considered the "Deep South"? I though VA was the northernmost state in the confederacy.

She's from NYC, so i don't really think she knows all that much about the culturally ingrained aspects of the "deep south".
The Professor

[Virginia Dare]

111. Depends on what part of Virginia you're talking about..

Smithfield, Virginia where all of this occurred is a pretty rural southern town, with a largely black population. I guess it also depends on what each individual's idea of what the "deep south" means. There are parts of Maryland I would consider pretty "southern" as far as tradition and attitudes.

[youthere]

114. I live in Iowa, and there are places here where...

people take on what I would call a "Southern" accent or affect to their speech. It always cracks me up when I hear my neighbor talk about doing the "warsh" (wash) But to be fair, I live in SOUTH central Iowa.

:D

[BlooInBloo]

115. It's ingrained in the deep south. I hail from Vicksburg - is *that* deep enough for you?

[ProfessorGAC]

116. That Wasn't My Question!

Now was it?

I was challenging Whoopi's geographic knowledge, i guess. Sheesh!
GAC

[BlooInBloo]

117. My mistake. I thought you specifically questioned her authority based on her being a NYer...

My apologies, now it's clear to me that I *totally* misread your statement:

"She's from NYC, so i don't really think she knows all that much about the culturally ingrained aspects of the "deep south"."

[ProfessorGAC]

118. Fair Enough

Taken that way, what i wrote was confusing. My fault.
GAC

[BlooInBloo]

119. It's all good.