does anyone here buy the magic bullet theory in the JFK murder?

[Gato Moteado]

if not, doesn't that make arlen specter a co-conspirator in a huge coverup?

is there a huge consensual hallucination going on for the last 40-some years regarding JFK's assassination? can a single bullet really do all the damage that specter claims it did? reality says no. yet we obviously have a different reality in this country.

they pulled off JFK's assassination and despite a small percentage of people confronting them about it, the official story lives on to this day. specter is still in the senate.

what bullshit story could they not pull off after that one?

[Kingshakabobo]

1. I think you mean "the pristine bullet" or "the single shooter"......

........I don't think anyone believes there was only one bullet.

[Elspeth]

2. Or the "magic bullet"

...

[Kingshakabobo]

7. That too...

:thumbsup:

[King Coal]

74. How much are they askin' for it?

[Gato Moteado]

10. i meant magic bullet....sorry. i fixed it

nt

[rug]

3. I still think Dr. Mudd was framed.

[CatWoman]

11. I think so, too

:hi:

[baldguy]

21. He was.

He got a pardon from Andrew Johnson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Mudd#Career_after_release

[Bucky]

44. Octavian totally framed Brutus for Caesar's murder. Don't buy the magic dagger theory

I'm just waiting for Oliver Stone to blow the lid off of Abel's so-called murder by Cain.

[benEzra]

170. LOL. (n/t)

[Virginia Dare]

78. Do you think it was actually John Wilkes Boothe at Garrett farm..

or do you think he got away to Canada?..:shrug:

[rug]

130. The dental records are inconclusive.

[bananarepublican]

147. He lived happily ever after in Europe for at least another 12 years! n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. I believe in Occam's Razor.

Occam snuck up behind him and cut him with a razor.

[Dr. Strange]

30. Ouch!

That Occam guy really pisses me off sometimes!

[BootinUp]

5. Only because

there is plenty of evidence that supports it and that only grows as time goes by and more research is done.

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100sbt.html

[nebenaube]

8. too funny...

hey pass that over here...

[BootinUp]

13. I will resist trying to help you read the information. n/t

[JuniperLea]

95. I read it

And I'm still not convinced. Ever fired a rifle? Inspected the slug? I've seen this much damage to a slug, with and without copper jackets, when fired into a bale of hay or a bag of sawdust. I've seen far more damage when fired into a sand-filled tin can, and even more damage when it hit the slender leg bone of a deer.

Sorry, but the debunking of a Hollywood movie hardly constitutes extensive research. Everything contained in that piece has been seen many times before.

[BootinUp]

110. Here is something from a side link

It is an informative link in the article you already looked at.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/issues_and_evidence/single-bullet_theory/Pristine_bullet/Pristine_bullet.html

That page will demonstrate what damage happens to the type of round in question fired at various objects and at varying speeds. The speed of the bullet was reduced by the impact with Kennedy's neck. This has a definite effect on how much damage occurred to the round from impact with Connally's rib.

regards.

[JuniperLea]

117. I saw that, and I call bullshit

Kennedy's neck had bones too... even grazing a bone will cause discernible damage to a copper jacketed round of that size. The bottom line is there is not enough damage to that round. Period. Going through two human bodies... please.

[BootinUp]

123. Incorrect, but we should just stop I think. n/t

[JuniperLea]

133. Fine with me...

I've been a shooter of many fine guns for over 40 years, and have loaded for nearly as many. No one can convince me that what I've seen with my own eyes is incorrect.

I've seen more damage to a copper jacketed led shot into a bag of sawdust behind a target than can be seen on any of the "magic bullet" photos I've ever seen, including these you have linked. The rifling alone is too pristine to have traveled through any part of two human beings. Those are some mighty sharp edges.

[bananarepublican]

148. Man, the problem here is magic mushrooms, not bullets! n/t

[Bucky]

35. Thanks for posting this.

I'd have more faith in conspiracy theories that denounce intentional disinformation from official sources if so many of conspiracy theorists themselves didn't engage in intentional disinformation. I don't trust my government. But that doesn't mean I automatically trust anyone who says "trust me instead."

[porphyrian]

6. I intentionally don't know enough about it to say. - n/t

[iamahaingttta]

9. Of course not!

Woody Harrelson's dad was with Howard Hunt on the Grassy Knoll.
Everybody knows that!

[peacetalksforall]

12. It was magic because it could move at right angles. What about

the bullet found on the gurney next to the body? And did you ever read about the intimidation of a witness who was standing next to the car?

Book: JFK The Last Dissenting Witness Jean Hill - with Bill Sloan Publisher: Pelican: 1992

Spector was a vile lap dog, if her version is true. Haven't heard about any libel cases against her for what she said happened to her. I can't excerpt, it fits with the rest of her intimidation. But, they let her live.

Many politicians are stll around who were around then. Bush, Sr., Spector, Goss. Can't remember the list right now.

[tetedur]

18. The bullet on the guerney WAS the magic bullet.

Remember? It went through JFK's back and came out nicking his tie. It went through Connolly shattering his rib, his wrist and embedded in his thigh then fell out on the guerney pristine. Ford moved the JFK back wound to get the angle right. The doctors at Parkland said the throat wound was an entrance wound and you can't shoot someone in the back and have the bullet leave the body without hitting bone but somehow it did on JFK.

All this was done with a carbine Manlicher Carcano not a high powered rifle. There were more fragments in Connolly than were missing from the magic bullet so it was a magic bullet indeed.

[peacetalksforall]

22. Nuts. I misspelled guerney. Anyway, I thought the guerney bullet

was the one they added to make the count balance. It's been a long time since I read about the bullets. I shouldn't speak about it anymore. The Hill book is the only book I've read in many years.

I've saved all my books and had hoped to reread them some day, but who knew that the same people would give reason to all the new crimes and scandals requiring so many new books. I only have timeo read the dust jackets of some.

[Lint Head]

14. Regardless what you believe there were people that were glad

JFK was dead. This sounds horrible to say but it's true. I was devastated. I cried like a baby. I was in Jr High in a math class when it happened. Some people in my class actually cheered. That told me exactly what their parents believed. I have come to learn, as a grew up and met some very rich corporate folks, that there were powerful people at that time that felt the same way. :dem:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

48. My Crazy Mother...

...Had a cocktail party to celebrate his assassination...

I don't have to make this shit up.

She was beyond being a Republican - she marched FOR the Vietnam war - to keep it going.

She campaigned FOR George Wallace.

She worked on the Goldwater campaign too.

If she could have found a white sheet with a pointy hood, she would have worn it to the grocery store.

[Raster]

156. Oh. My. Gawd.

LOL "If she could have found a white sheet with a pointy hood, she would have worn it to the grocery store.":rofl:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

175. Now...

at almost 51 years old, I can laugh at this shit...

She was a crazy, crazy woman...

She used the "n" word every day of my life while she was alive -- She was the president of the John Birch Society in the area we lived in during the '60's

It was a freak show at my house once a month during the merry meetings of the talking trolls....

Fuck!

[BootinUp]

177. you seem to have

turned out alright. ;)

[seemslikeadream]

15. no

[RufusTFirefly]

16. Only America has lone nuts and damaged buildings that fall at free-fall speed

That's because we're special!!
:tinfoilhat:

[dailykoff]

23. And enemies who hate us for our freedoms.

As if we had any.

[bananarepublican]

149. Why, it's a veritable 'through the looking-glass wonderland'! n/t

[slackmaster]

17. Nothing magic about it - the trajectory has been adequately explained

Without resorting to any non-ballistic behavior on the part of the bullet.

[defendandprotect]

24. Wound in right shoulder was DOWNWARD AT 45 DEGREE ANGLE . . . .

and it was BELOW the front neck wound ---

So . . . now let's see your "trajectory" work that one out ---

[defendandprotect]

25. And probably a good time to remind you all that 'OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA . . . .

WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS AND PROBABLY ALSO FOR THE FBI."

In other words, what Marguerite Oswald first told America -- that her son worked for the CIA -- was true.

This information was confirmed by John Tunnheim, Chair of the JFK 1992 Classified Records Act and
by CIA document.

And, presumably Oswald was the sender of the cable alerting the FBI to the plot.

[AntiFascist]

129. Yeah, and what happened to that thread from yesterday?

:mad:

[bananarepublican]

150. Yep! He was sent to the USSR by American intelligence! n/t

[slackmaster]

26. AJNTSA

[BootinUp]

28. The whole distrust anything

reported by the government scenario makes it unlikely that many would ever change their mind on this. Forget the facts, its a hopeless cause. Now my closing comment....To anyone reading this that is interested, the events in Daly Plaza have been simulated in 3D animation with precise measurements which confirm the official Warren commission report, and therefore, to argue against angles of trajectory or for multiple shooters because of statements made and retracted by the Parkland doctors or to use inaccurate sketches prepared without access to the body, is simply ludicrous. Back in the late seventies the Parkland doctors viewed the autopsy photos on television and agreed they were genuine and did not dispute the autopsy findings. Cya, I'm outa here.

[defendandprotect]

60. Facts do change minds . . . .

First, you have two sources for OSWALD having been employed by the CIA --
One is the 1992 JFK Classified Records Panel -- headed by John Tunnheim.
They saw Oswald's employment records -- W2 form -- IRS filings --

'OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS AND PROBABLY ALSO FOR THE FBI."

Was the panel's conclusion.

Second -- you have a letter from the CIA indicating that Oswald was employed and trained by them.

Here's the declassified document --
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2004/160904oswaldwascia.htm

If you get those "facts," let me know and we'll proceed to the neck vs shoulder wound.

[AntiFascist]

131. Third, you have confirmation from French intelligence...

see "Farewell America".

[defendandprotect]

59. Great debate -- !!! Any chance you want to elaborate -- ???

Poster afflicted by "shit" on the brain --- nice photo!!

[Cruzan]

125. This photo shows an 18° bullet path + 6° compensation for position and tilt of camera = 24°

Note Kennedy was sitting higher than Connally who was in a jump seat.

[Richard Steele]

19. The bullet that magically appeared on an unused hospital gurney?

Sure, that's totally believable! :sarcasm:

[bananarepublican]

151. Very likely delivered in person by Jack 'Capone gofer' Ruby! n/t

[Wiley50]

20. There's Been A Spectre Over That Theory From The Start n/t

[slackmaster]

27. You mean "Specter", I believe

[bananarepublican]

152. 'Sphincter' would have been a much better surname for go along Arlen! n/t

[Initech]

29. Nope. When I first heard the theory I was 12, and even then my reaction

to the magic bullet theory was - "are you fucking kidding me?".

[slackmaster]

31. Maybe you should read the actual report instead of someone's sensationalistic summary

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/

[bananarepublican]

153. Can I borrow your well thumbed copy of 'Case Closed' by Gerald Posner? n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. NO. I always wonder what Ted Kennedy thinks about Arlen Specter and his involvement

in the cover up of his brother's murder.

[slackmaster]

38. Obviously TK is part of the Conspiracy

There are really only two ways for a Conspiracy theory to survive a challenge:

1. Reduce the scope of the Conspiracy, or

2. Expand the Conspiracy.

[bananarepublican]

154. You mean like 'Chappaquiddick' (sp?) was an assassination attempt?

Even though Ted Kennedy survived, he was so compromised that he'd never assume the power needed to smash the m*th*rf*ck*rs behind 'the termination with extreme prejudice' of JFK, MLK, RFK, JFK Jnr, Paul Wellstone...

Oh! They've also had a little success internationally don't you know! Lamumba, Allende... Mind you, the attempts on Castro could be turned into a great 'Get Smart' like sitcom!

[dailykoff]

172. That's been my understanding for some time.

And apparently not the last, either.

p.s. I'd imagine that all they'd have to do at Chappaquiddick is remove a few reflectors at the bend in than unlit bridge, but it was probably a little more devious than that.

[truebrit71]

33. No. Complete bullshit from beginning to end.

...especially when coupled with the 'pristine bullet'....

And yes, Sen Hair-plugs is part of the biggest cover-up in U.S. history...

[slackmaster]

37. The "pristine bullet" is not even close to pristine

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/issues_and_evidence/single-bullet_theory/Pristine_bullet/Pristine_bullet.html

[truebrit71]

39. The cumulative weight of the 'pristine bullet', plus the frags in Connolly..

...and wherever else added up to MORE than the bullet originally weighed.

How is that possible?

[slackmaster]

40. The "and wherever else" kind of defeats your own objection

Too much is always better than not enough.

[truebrit71]

41. Um, no and stuff....the bullet GAINED weight...

...how the hell does that happen?

[slackmaster]

42. By including fragments that came from somewhere else

Shit happens. The point is that the bullet shows deformation consistent with the trajectory described in the WC report, or at least not inconsistent with it.

[truebrit71]

43. Hmmm...so it LOST fragements...and left a bloody great big chunk in Connolly...

...but it somehow managed to gain weight, not get deformed and perform countless through-and-throughs...


Okay....I have a bridge for sale too....interested? It too is almost pristine....

[slackmaster]

45. That's not at all consistent with what I said, but if you want to believe in the Con have at it

:hi:

[warren pease]

46. Well, this shit actually *did* happen...

To fit the official story, Oswald had to have acted alone. But a man named Abraham Zapruder had filmed the assassination with his home movie camera and, in the process, established a precise time frame for the sequence of events. Investigators proved it was physically impossible to get off more than three shots within that time frame with the alleged assassination weapon -- a cheap, mail-order bolt-action rifle. Ballistics evidence proved the first shot missed and the third blew Kennedy's head apart.

Therefore, to account for multiple wounds to the president and Texas Governor John Connally, seated just in front of Kennedy, the second shot must have passed through Kennedy, hung motionless in the air for a bit, zigged and zagged, entered Connally's shoulder, bounced around his rib cage, exited, zigged again, and then passed through his wrist, shattering bone and cartilage, then finally embedded itself in Connally's thigh.

Wikipedia has a nice explanation of the theory and the crazy shit you have to believe to acknowledge its validity here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_bullet_theory

And after this miraculous journey, it finally showed up on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital in nearly pristine condition, jacket intact, head barely scratched, a little worn toward the sides and rear. That's the "single bullet" in Specter's single bullet theory. Needless to say, scores of proficient marksmen have never been able to replicate this feat. Not even close. And the bullets fired into cadavers and dead animals emerge absolutely beat to shit.

But that's not considered crazy; it's the official story signed by all members of the Warren Commission and passed into the US historical record, irreproducible results notwithstanding.

So which is easier to believe? That the laws of physics which have governed objects in motion since the big bang were suspended for a few seconds on a single afternoon in Dallas 44 years ago to allow a "lone nut" and mediocre marksman to kill a president? Or that there was another rifleman?

And if the latter, then the much-reviled and ridiculed "conspiracy theorists" are, by definition, correct, since a conspiracy is simply a secret plan involving a group of two or more people to do something unlawful or harmful.

You could also deduce a conspiracy just by asking cui bono, but that's circumstantial, while the physical evidence for multiple gunmen is pretty well nailed down by witnesses -- including cops, the Zapruder film, the nature of the alleged weapon and the idiocy of the magic bullet -- as well as Oswald's murder by Ruby, the unprecedented destruction of all Oswald interview notes by the Dallas Red Squad and the general lack of proper police procedure throughout the entire time Oswald was in custody.

Back and to the left, back and to the left, back and to the left...


wp

[slackmaster]

49. I had to stop reading after your third sentence

...Investigators proved it was physically impossible to get off more than three shots within that time frame with the alleged assassination weapon -- a cheap, mail-order bolt-action rifle....

:rofl:

That is complete nonsense. It's been proved many times that it is not difficult to do.

[warren pease]

52. See post # 51 n/t

[slackmaster]

53. None of which in any way proves Oswald couldn't or more importantly didn't do it

:nuke:

[warren pease]

55. Oswald was a classic patsy...

... if he had managed to pull this one off all by himself, he would have made Houdini look like a third-rate carnival contortionist. Ever heard of the fake Oswalds running around Dallas making memorable asses of themselves? Look it up. It's a classic case of building a legend for a fall guy.

And the guy who was supposedly Oswald photographed outside the Russian embassy in Mexico City? This is him:

http://www.jfklancer.com/backes/newman/newman_1.html

Dead ringer isn't he?

Nah. This was a set-up, a false flag op, building a legend, creating a patsy -- whatever you want to call it. What it *wasn't* was another in the grand tradition of "one lone nuts" who keep diaries and kill political figures or celebrities to satisfy some warped sexual fixation or the need to kill powerful people so that the lone nut then becomes powerful himself (and it's almost always a "him," with apologies to Sara Jane Moore and Squeaky Fromme).

This wasn't a lone nut special; this was a political murder carried out by serious professionals who knew they were beyond the reach of the law because they had the backing and cover of the political and economic elite.


I'm off to dinner. I'll check back later.

wp

[BootinUp]

57. A trained marksman firing a rifle 3 times, wtf is so hard to fathom?

Wack jobs take shots at people all the time, I really don't see any logic in your patsy argument.

[warren pease]

65. The guy wasn't very good with a rifle...

...according to his Marine Corps marksmanship evaluations. And as stated above, he would have had to hit a target moving away from him at least twice in 5.6 seconds with a bolt action rifle noted for its inaccuracy, through a tree and coping with extreme nervousness and probably the most insane adrenaline rush in his life. Could you or anybody else you know do this? Hired master rated sharpshooters couldn't, as you can read here (along with a bunch of other JFK murder mythology foisted on us by the Warren Report):

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/factmyth.htm

I suppose it comes down to a matter of belief systems, which is always unfortunate because then we're arguing religion instead of events and evidence. So, imo, the evidence points to at least one more shooter. And if one more, why not six more -- three teams of two, one shooter and one backup, firing from the Book Depository, from behind the grassy knoll and possibly from across Elm St. For this kind of black op, you don't want to screw things up or leave anything to chance.

Let me guess: you also believe the official conspiracy theory about 9/11, in which 19 hijackers (at least six of whom apparently survived the crashes, since they've been seen very much alive in various hot spots in the Middle East) armed with box-cutters overcame planes full of passengers, stormed their way into the cockpits, subdued the flight crew, turned off their transponders, broke radio contact and deviated wildly from flight plans -- any of which would have been enough to send alarms flashing throughout the air traffic control system and NORAD -- then, after training on single-engine Cessnas and a few hours in Boeing simulators, managed to hit proverbial needles in haystacks with darts despite no experience piloting large commercial airliners, also managed to make a 270 degree turn, skim the ground at no more than a couple of dozen feet, and crash into the only part of the Pentagon that had been upgraded to withstand the impact of a missile, even as passengers over Pennsylvania were assaulting their captors and telling relatives about it all via cell phones -- which have been proven not to work at jetliner altitudes and speeds -- then heroically crashing the plane into the countryside to prevent further attacks on the homeland, despite the physical evidence of the debris field being 5 to 10 miles long, which suggests it was blown out of the sky.

Does that sum of the "real" conspiracy theory -- the one not called a conspiracy theory but passed into pop culture as the official story which we all must believe if we're to be loyal americans in a time of fear and terror everywhere.


wp

[BootinUp]

70. The tree

was not blocking all the shots according to simulations I have seen. The first shot yes, but it seems likely that was the one that missed. The distance was actually quite short, in terms of the rifles accuracy certainly so. The 5.6 seconds looks longer depending on how fast the operator can work the bolt. I have viewed videos where that type of rifle is fired on average in a little over 2 seconds per shot. Next?

[truebrit71]

76. Bottom line: The guy couldn't do the shooting...

NEXT?

[BootinUp]

90. What are your qualifications

for making that statement? Probably wasting my time asking.

[truebrit71]

100. My qualifications don't enter into the discussion...

Oswald was at best an average shot...You know that, and so does everyone else..you keep on believing your government and it's bullshit story, and I'll keep on believing in the obvious truth...

[BootinUp]

105. sure they do. n/t

[truebrit71]

106. No, actually they don't.

But thanks for playing....

[BadgerLaw2010]

137. If you're evaluating something you have no expertise in, your opinion is worthless.

So yes, your qualifications do matter.

[BadgerLaw2010]

121. The body shot is a miss, not a hit. Unless you want to posit Oswald switched point-of-aim.

Either he was many inches off on the body shot, or he was many inches off on the headshot if you want to say that he was firing at the same "target."

No cartridge rifle ammunition is that inaccurate at ~100 yards.

[truebrit71]

75. Only problem was Oswald was a shitty marksman....

...next?

[slackmaster]

80. He was a mediocre marksman in the Marine Corps, which doesn't prove...

...that he couldn't have made the shots on the President, or that he didn't.

[truebrit71]

85. Rubbish...

...couple his crappy shooting skills plus the fact that the scope was out of whack and the rifle took too long to recyle between the shots and you have only one, logical, conclusion...he wasn't the (only) shooter...

Also...why wait until the target has gone past you to take your shot? I have been to the depository and the heads-on shot makes much more sense...plus there aren't any trees to obscure your shot...

[slackmaster]

93. Hooey

Oswald's shooting skills were way better than crappy, the fact that the scope was off when the police examined the rifle doesn't prove squat about how it was when Oswald shot it, and any competent shooter can get three aimed shots off in that amount of time with a similar rifle at a similar distance.

Also...why wait until the target has gone past you to take your shot? I have been to the depository and the heads-on shot makes much more sense...plus there aren't any trees to obscure your shot...

Why do you keep recycling stuff that has been thoroughly debunked?

[truebrit71]

99. What am I recycling? The fact that i have walked almost every inch of that area?

Instead of dodging the question, why not answer it?

I disagree with your assessment about the shots as well...this was a target, MOVING AWAY FROM THE SHOOTER, and he had to acquire and re-acquire said MOVING TARGET, three times, THROUGH TREES....

And as anyone that has fired a gun will tell you, aiming at a stationary paper target is no substitute for firing at a live, moving target...one would imagine that would be an even GREATER difference when the person you are shooting at is the President of the United States...

There is no way that Oswald did the shooting.

None.

[slackmaster]

112. Even a truly incompetent rifleman scores a bullseye now and then

Until someone comes up with a plausible alternative theory with actual evidence to support it, I must continue to accept the Warren Commission's conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald killed President Kennedy.

[warren pease]

115. And occasionally republicans manage to suppress the urge to assault young boys...

Doesn't make it a normal situation, or very likely. Combine that with the accelerated heart rate, adrenaline rush, sever spike in blood pressure -- I mean hell, it's only the fucking president he's trying to murder -- and I suggest the theory that even a truly incompetent rifleman scores a bullseye now and then doesn't begin to cover the absolutely non-credible scenario that a life-long loser, mediocre shot, twitchy little guy with probable mental stability issues managed to pull off the crime of the century as if it weren't anything more noteworthy than eating lunch.

Just doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Believe what you want; I don't give a shit. Just don't expect me to buy into that particular belief system.

wp

[slackmaster]

116. You guys are great at throwing out non-scalable negative descriptions of Oswald

But you haven't succeeded in refuting the possibility that he made two shots on the President, or come close to presenting a viable, falsifiable alternative theory of what happened that day.

[warren pease]

118. What is it about the post below that don't you get?

I hate to repost this, but you may have missed it:


MYTH: The alleged shooting feat would have been "like shooting fish in a bowl." It would not have been difficult at all. Oswald was more than capable of doing what the Warren Commission (WC) said he did.

FACT: None other than Dan Rather admitted in a 1993 documentary on the assassination, "Who Killed JFK? The Final Chapter," that the 1967 CBS rifle test showed the alleged shooting feat would have been difficult. Specifically, Rather said the test showed "the odds are against" a gunman doing what the WC said Oswald did. In fact, Rather added that this fact constituted support "for the theory that there perhaps was more than one gunman." What led Rather to say this? Because in the 1967 simulation NOT ONE of the eleven expert riflemen who took part in the test managed to score two hits out of three shots on the moving target sled in less than 6 seconds. Seven of them failed to do so on ANY attempt. Oswald would have one and only one attempt.

The WC's own rifle tests likewise show the alleged shooting feat would have been very difficult, even for an accomplished marksman. The commission hired three Master-rated riflemen to attempt to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat. The three Master-rated shooters fired 18 rounds while using the scope and three rounds while using the iron sights. They used the alleged murder weapon, the Mannlicher-Carcano that was traced to Lee Harvey Oswald. They missed the head and neck area of the target board silhouettes 18 out of 18 times when they used the scope, and two out of three times when they used the iron sights. Thus, they missed the head and neck area of the silhouettes 20 out of 21 times. Several of their misses were far apart on the target boards. Indeed, some of their shots missed the silhouettes entirely. It's revealing that they shot so poorly even though they were allowed to take as long as they wanted for the first shot, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire, even though they were only firing from 30 feet up, and even though they were shooting at stationary target boards--yes, STATIONARY target boards.

The three riflemen in the test were named Miller, Hendrix, and Staley. (Their first names were never given.) In the first series, Miller took 4.6 seconds to fire three shots, Staley took 6.75 seconds, and Hendrix took 8.25 seconds. In the next series, Miller took 5.15 seconds, Staley took 6.45 seconds, and Hendrix took 7 seconds. It bears repeating that Oswald would have had only one attempt, only one series. Oswald supposedly scored two hits out of three shots, yet Miller, Hendrix, and Staley missed the head and neck area of the silhouettes 20 out of 21 times, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire. This is worth noting because lone-gunman theorists now assert that the supposed lone gunman actually would have had more than 6 seconds to fire. If two Master-rated riflemen shot so poorly with the alleged murder weapon while taking 7 and 8.25 seconds to fire, at stationary targets no less, what are the odds that a mediocre marksman like Oswald could have scored two hits out of three shots against a moving target in 6-9 seconds? The poor performance of the Master-rated shooters certainly proves the alleged shooting feat would not have been "easy" by any means.

Incidentally, the only way lone-gunman theorists can give their single assassin 2-4 more seconds to fire is to assume he completely missed both Kennedy and the huge limousine with his first and closest shot, that he missed such a gigantic target from 60 feet up and from less than 140 feet away.


Link: http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/factmyth.htm

As to Oswald being "scalable," web servers are scalable; database servers are scalable; server operating systems are usually scalable. Career fuckups, on the other hand, don't scale well. They tend to remain fuckups in just about all aspects of their lives -- absent some life-changing event -- and that's just the way it goes.

Expecting a career fuckup who can't shoot worth shit to somehow pull off killing the president of the united states with a crappy rifle, through intervening tree cover which would have caused him to re-aim for the second and third shots, a mis-adjusted sight and somehow succeed in a truly epic combination of balls and luck that even experts couldn't replicate -- it just doesn't wash.


wp

[slackmaster]

119. Still no empirically testable alternative theory

:rofl:

[BadgerLaw2010]

120. One of three inside 100 yards at a basically stationary target with a scope is poor.

Yes it was moving, but it was moving slowly away, which is very easy. That's not considered moving target shooting, since you don't have to lead it. Especially at that range.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Hmm.

"Investigators proved it was physically impossible to get off more than three shots within that time frame with the alleged assassination weapon -- a cheap, mail-order bolt-action rifle."

The problem with that is that other investigators have proven that it is possible to get that many shots off in that amount of time.

"Ballistics evidence proved the first shot missed and the third blew Kennedy's head apart."

Which ballistics evidence?

"Therefore, to account for multiple wounds to the president and Texas Governor John Connally, seated just in front of Kennedy, the second shot must have passed through Kennedy, hung motionless in the air for a bit, zigged and zagged, entered Connally's shoulder, bounced around his rib cage, exited, zigged again, and then passed through his wrist, shattering bone and cartilage, then finally embedded itself in Connally's thigh."

Unless the bullets fragmented and deflected, which could account for numerous wounds.

[warren pease]

51. Hmm indeed...

"Investigators proved it was physically impossible to get off more than three shots within that time frame with the alleged assassination weapon -- a cheap, mail-order bolt-action rifle."

The problem with that is that other investigators have proven that it is possible to get that many shots off in that amount of time.

Yeah, but none of them were able to hit a moving target towed at the speed Kennedy's limo was traveling -- either shooting with no obstructions or through a tree or similar vision-limiting object in the way. They've had FBI sharpshooters, military sharpshooters, winners of marksmanship competitions and a bunch of others try to hit that damn target with three shots in the time the Zapruder film allows and, to my knowledge, none has succeeded. If you know differently, let me know and pls provide a link.


"Ballistics evidence proved the first shot missed and the third blew Kennedy's head apart."

Which ballistics evidence?

"Ballistics" may be the wrong word. Sorry for the mis-usage. But physical evidence shows that a fragment from the first (or possibly second shot -- one of which it would have to be to fit the official story) hit a guy in the cheek who was standing by the triple overpass. Interesting stuff on that wound and its significance here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tague


"Therefore, to account for multiple wounds to the president and Texas Governor John Connally, seated just in front of Kennedy, the second shot must have passed through Kennedy, hung motionless in the air for a bit, zigged and zagged, entered Connally's shoulder, bounced around his rib cage, exited, zigged again, and then passed through his wrist, shattering bone and cartilage, then finally embedded itself in Connally's thigh."

Unless the bullets fragmented and deflected, which could account for numerous wounds.

Well, if one missed, as noted above, and one blew Kennedy's head apart, then the third (and the Zapruder timeline only allows for three shots) must have done all that damage. And then just kind of showed up, virtually unscathed, on a stretcher at Parkland. I submit that only in Arlen Specter's fevered imagination is such a thing possible.


wp

[BootinUp]

56. About the "pristine" bullet on the stretcher

I came back for some more fun....


Does anyone who is in the conspiracy side of this argument realize that the bullet was slowed down by Kennedy's neck, it hit soft tissue and cartilage there, was slowed down enough that it would not fragment on impact with the rib, was further slowed traveling through Connelly that it did not penetrate deeply into the thigh, this is why it fell out on the stretcher. This has been closely reproduced in a Discovery show and is available on DVD, the trajectory, wounds, and bullet damage were all shown to be entirely conceivable and probable when considering the major facts in the case. There was no "magic" involved, however, there has been plenty twisting of the facts and just plain BS thrown around to discredit the Warren Commission findings. A careful review of the facts as they are now known would satisfy any jury.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/issues_and_evidence/single-bullet_theory/Pristine_bullet/Pristine_bullet.html

[warren pease]

66. I disagree; it's a convenient fiction to explain the inexplicable...

... or the cultural impossibility of acknowledging that, in America, it's not always one lone nut who does the deed.

There's plenty of physical evidence to indicate that this particular bullet is unique in the annals of weaponry. Even cannon balls get dinged up on impact. This thing, jacket intact, actually gained weight when the grains that supposedly came from this bullet were removed from various wounds and added to the weight of the surviving slug. This is not only magical, it's downright biblical.

Pardon me while I part the Red Sea.


wp

[BootinUp]

69. So you are unimpressed with the

evidence at the link? It refutes your verbal parlay quite well.

[warren pease]

87. Tag...

"So you are unimpressed with the evidence at the link? It refutes your verbal parlay quite well."

How exactly does this refute my "verbal parlay?" (Normally, I HATE quoting blocks of text, preferring to write my own interpretation of the text, but in this case I think it's appropriate.)


MYTH: The alleged shooting feat would have been "like shooting fish in a bowl." It would not have been difficult at all. Oswald was more than capable of doing what the Warren Commission (WC) said he did.

FACT: None other than Dan Rather admitted in a 1993 documentary on the assassination, "Who Killed JFK? The Final Chapter," that the 1967 CBS rifle test showed the alleged shooting feat would have been difficult. Specifically, Rather said the test showed "the odds are against" a gunman doing what the WC said Oswald did. In fact, Rather added that this fact constituted support "for the theory that there perhaps was more than one gunman." What led Rather to say this? Because in the 1967 simulation NOT ONE of the eleven expert riflemen who took part in the test managed to score two hits out of three shots on the moving target sled in less than 6 seconds. Seven of them failed to do so on ANY attempt. Oswald would have one and only one attempt.

The WC's own rifle tests likewise show the alleged shooting feat would have been very difficult, even for an accomplished marksman. The commission hired three Master-rated riflemen to attempt to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat. The three Master-rated shooters fired 18 rounds while using the scope and three rounds while using the iron sights. They used the alleged murder weapon, the Mannlicher-Carcano that was traced to Lee Harvey Oswald. They missed the head and neck area of the target board silhouettes 18 out of 18 times when they used the scope, and two out of three times when they used the iron sights. Thus, they missed the head and neck area of the silhouettes 20 out of 21 times. Several of their misses were far apart on the target boards. Indeed, some of their shots missed the silhouettes entirely. It's revealing that they shot so poorly even though they were allowed to take as long as they wanted for the first shot, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire, even though they were only firing from 30 feet up, and even though they were shooting at stationary target boards--yes, STATIONARY target boards.

The three riflemen in the test were named Miller, Hendrix, and Staley. (Their first names were never given.) In the first series, Miller took 4.6 seconds to fire three shots, Staley took 6.75 seconds, and Hendrix took 8.25 seconds. In the next series, Miller took 5.15 seconds, Staley took 6.45 seconds, and Hendrix took 7 seconds. It bears repeating that Oswald would have had only one attempt, only one series. Oswald supposedly scored two hits out of three shots, yet Miller, Hendrix, and Staley missed the head and neck area of the silhouettes 20 out of 21 times, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire. This is worth noting because lone-gunman theorists now assert that the supposed lone gunman actually would have had more than 6 seconds to fire. If two Master-rated riflemen shot so poorly with the alleged murder weapon while taking 7 and 8.25 seconds to fire, at stationary targets no less, what are the odds that a mediocre marksman like Oswald could have scored two hits out of three shots against a moving target in 6-9 seconds? The poor performance of the Master-rated shooters certainly proves the alleged shooting feat would not have been "easy" by any means.

Incidentally, the only way lone-gunman theorists can give their single assassin 2-4 more seconds to fire is to assume he completely missed both Kennedy and the huge limousine with his first and closest shot, that he missed such a gigantic target from 60 feet up and from less than 140 feet away.


Link: http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/factmyth.htm


You ever been to Dealey Plaza, btw? Eerie as hell. About 15 years ago, I was at some trade show at the Dallas convention center, which turns out to be two or three blocks away from the triple overpass. I was walking around looking for an ATM. Suddenly, I looked around and everything looked familiar. Took me a while to realize why. The Book Depository (which I think is now a museum devoted to the official story), the most famous grassy knoll in the world, that cheap-looking white column thing that sits on the grass for no apparent reason. You see where they turned first right, then left onto Elm. It's greater than a right angle, so the motorcade would have had to slow down below SS regs (avg. of 11.2 mph) to negotiate the turn without slamming the passengers around. And you imaging the cheering crowds, the grassy knoll full of people, the Kennedys waving and smiling. Then a shot, which most take for a car backfire. Then another, and another (and another couple, in all probability). All hell breaks loose. You can smell the gunpowder. JFK is probably already brain dead and just waiting for the rest of the vital signs to close down. Jackie's climbing all over the trunk looking for pieces of skull and brain that the docs can use to put him back together. Connally's yowling with pain, the limo's accelerating along with the cop cars, motorcycles and SS cars, sirens screaming, lights flashing...

You can honestly feel and almost hear all this craziness. It's like going to one of those Mystery Spots -- nothing feels normal, nothing feels right, your shoes echo off the pavement, traffic is light, nobody looks around or slows down a bit to feel the sheer overwhelming weight of what took place there.

I eventually found the ATM, walked back to the convention center, avoiding Dealey Plaza, and the memory's as strong today as in that day in the early '90s when I stumbled into one of the world's most notorious and heart-breaking killing zones.


wp


Edited for clarity (and you can only imagine how raggedy the previous version was).

[truebrit71]

77. How did it GAIN weight?

Please explain that.......

[slackmaster]

81. Minor errors handling the evidence could explain that

No investigation is executed perfectly.

[truebrit71]

84. Huh? The weight of the bullet, plus the fragments left behind in skulls..

...and thighs total more than the weight of the original bullet and you put it down to "minor errors in evidence handling"? How about physically impossible?

I have a bridge to sell you if you're interested....

[BootinUp]

91. The so-called "pristine" bullet

never was claimed by anyone that is sane to have hit anyones skull.

[slackmaster]

94. Facts won't sway the conspiracy devotees

It's a religion to them.

[truebrit71]

102. So what made Kennedy's head explode?

Oh wait...we don't know that because the brain went "missing"....

Keep on believing the official story...

Pssst...I've got a bridge for sale if you're interested...REAL cheap too...

[BootinUp]

108. The brain was given to the Kennedy family

and presumed destroyed by them. The autopsy itself was not a full autopsy at the wishes of the family.

BTW, the head shot bullet is the other one. Duh. Don't you think you should at least make an attempt to avail yourself of some facts in the case if you wish to debate it?

[truebrit71]

111. It was? Are you sure?

Duh, I was making a point that the "investigation" was a complete balls-up from beginning to end...

DUH back at ya...

P.S. you want me to ship that bridge to you, or would you like to pick it up yourself?

[warren pease]

113. And yet...

...there's still a lot of uncertainty about where the brain and other artifacts are now. Looks like Bobby had them for awhile:

<snip>

Despite these efforts, the committee was not able to
determine precisely what happened to the missing materials. The
evidence indicates that the materials were not buried with the
body at reinterment. It seems apparent that Angela Novello did
remove the footlocker containing to the materials from the office
of Mrs. Lincoln at the direction of Robert Kennedy, and that
Herman Kahn had knowledge of this transaction. After the removal
from Lincoln's office, Robert Kennedy most likely acquired
possession of or at least personal control over these materials.
Burke Marshall's opinion that Robert Kennedy obtained and disposed
of these items himself to prevent any future public display
supports this theory.

</snip>


But the House Select Committee on Assassinations was still uncertain as to the artifacts' whereabouts. See this excerpt from the committee's report for exhaustive details:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/brain.txt


The sole piece of good news in all this: unlike the present occupant of the white house, physical evidence proves that Kennedy had a brain. This guy, shoot him in the ear and a version of the pristine "magic" bullet emerges from the other ear, undamaged by contact with anything but marsh gas and tapioca pudding on its journey through the cranium.


wp

[warren pease]

104. No, it wasn't supposed to be the head shot...

However, it's still pretty magical. To conform to the Warren Commission's fantasy, it must have passed through Kennedy, the knot on his tie, hung motionless in the air for a bit, zigged and zagged, entered Connally's shoulder, bounced around his rib cage, exited, zigged again, and then passed through his wrist, shattering bone and cartilage, then finally embedded itself in Connally's thigh.

That's a lot more abuse than a head shot is likely to inflict on the slug, and this bullet of the gods, casing intact, turned up on a gurney at Parkland -- a gurney some investigators claim never held either Kennedy or Connally.

That's a hell of a bullet. I'd like a few dozen just like it.


wp

[BootinUp]

107. You ignore clearly explained well researched facts

that have been plotted by numerous qualified researchers.....just sayin'.

[warren pease]

92. Minor errors like these?

<snip>


- The Warren Commission ignored a dozen Dealey Plaza witnesses (including several law enforcement officers) who reported men showing Secret Service credentials or identifying themselves as Secret Service agents who collected evidence, took statements, and reportedly held witnesses in custody. The Secret Service later stated, however, that none of its agents were in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. The House Select Committee took note of this series of events but did not investigate its conspiratorial significance.

- J. Edgar Hoover and top FBI officials possessed substantial information that CIA-connected Mafia bosses were complicit in a plot to murder JFK, yet Hoover did not share this knowledge with either the Secret Service or the Warren Commission.

- The Warren Commission ignored leads that would have lead to CIA-directed plots against Fidel Castro directly connected to the JFK assassination. The Commission also ignored evidence of Jack Ruby's lifetime involvement in corrupt Teamsters' activities, Syndicate business (including drug traffic), police and intelligence informing, and the anti-Castro plots that would have pointed to a major motive for Ruby killing Oswald. The House Select Committees admitted these facts about CIA plots and Jack Ruby, listed its suspects as Santo Trafficante, Carlos Marcello, Jimmy Hoffa, and the CIA-directed Cuban exiles, and then did nothing to follow up important leads developed by its own staff.

- The Warren Commission did not investigate a pattern of disinformation developed immediately after the JFK assassination attempting to implicate Fidel Castro in the murder of JFK. The House Select Committee ignored substantial evidence that the individuals involved had long-standing CIA links.

- The Warren Commission was unable to establish that Oswald ordered, took delivery of, possessed, practiced with, carried to the Texas School Book Depository, and fired a rifle from that building on November 22, 1963. The Commission's paraffin tests of Oswald's face and hands were inconclusive. The House Select Committee on Assassinations ignored the Commission's failures, relying on the Commission's broken chain of rifle evidence.

- The Warren Commission was unable to establish a definitive shape for the "sniper's nest" and did not prove the value of the earliest-known box arrangement at that sixth floor Texas School Book Depository window. The Commission also ignored the half-opened window, making the firing of a weapon at the motorcade and striking Kennedy and Connally difficult (if not impossible). The House Select Committee failed to resolve these problems.

- The Warren Commission refused to examine either the Bethesda autopsy photos or x-rays. Instead, its medical witnesses used admittedly inaccurate drawings to represent JFK's wounds.

</snip>

And the alleged autopsy doctors even "misplaced" Kennedy's brain. Nobody has any idea where it might be, crucial though it is to providing evidence on the trajectory and entry/exit points of the head wound.


More here: http://www.jfklancer.com/Statement.html

And here: http://tinyurl.com/2gupkh

And here: http://tinyurl.com/2y474s


This is serious shit, in case that's escaped your notice. This was not only the murder of a president but the end of an era. It was the end of blind trust in government. It was the end of the optimism that Kennedy instilled in people, and the beginning of the Johnson, Nixon, Ford era, during which almost nothing inspiring happened -- except Watergate -- and that was inspiring for the wrong reasons. The assassination, along with the Vietnam war, increasing pressure for black liberation, and a general sense that the American creation myth was absolute bullshit, radicalized me while still in my teens. And I've seen no reason to alter that viewpoint in the intervening years. BushCo being the most egregious case in point, but not the only repressive, depressing, blood-thirsty, power-mad administration in the past 40 or so years.

And to have been lied to about the assassination by the Feds -- at a time when they weren't the known liars that they are now -- was one of the lynchpins that created the '60s, which was basically anarcho-socialism in a non-structured, non-ideological form. The backlash to which begat Nixon, who begat Carter's brief attempt at relatively honest government, which made people mad enough to elect Reagan, who begat Poppy Bush, then the Great Triangulator and now, the malevolent simpleton who occupies Al Gore's house. So it started quite a trend, and we're still suffering the consequences -- in fact, the consequences of BushCo may include the end of the republic as we've known it. So those were some pretty hellish bullets, no matter how many and who fired them.

wp

[truebrit71]

103. Don't go confusing them with facts and ommissions....

...it's just not fair... ;-)

[TrogL]

168. You're obviosly not trained on a bolt-action rifle

There are a variety of learning styles. Most people use visual, some smaller number use audio and small minority use kinesthetic (eg. concert pianists). I have a friend with kinesthetic learning style. I "hear" my passwords in my head. Nothing will do but he has to type them out in space to recall them.

A friend of mine is a concert organist. I play the organ but he's way better than I am because blindfolded he can hit the exact spot on the keyboard or pedalboard, over and over and over. I've heard him play literally for hundreds of hours and I've heard him play maybe five wrong notes - ever (one I think was deliberate, during Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor - he hates that piece).

Marksmen are people with excellent kinesthetic memory. They can repeatedly go through the exact (to the millimeter) motions to repeat a task, in this case, firing, cycling the action, re-acquiring the target, then firing again. Mere mortals would take forever to do this. I've seen marksmen do this with plenty of time to spare to get three rounds out in 6 seconds. Remember, you start counting at the first round. He's already acquired the target so there's no time spent there, so the sequence is actually fire, cycle, acquire, fire, cycle, acquire, fire. The most amount of time may very well have been spent on re-acquiring the target. In this case, having a lighter rifle is actually an advantage to someone small like Oswald.

[bananarepublican]

155. The fatal headshot was caused by a frangible (aka 'dumb-dumb') bullet. n/t

[KansDem]

34. No. I've seen the movie--JFK was shot by at least two assassins...(nt)

[NutmegYankee]

63. The movie was fiction. n/t

[bananarepublican]

157. There were three, possibly four/five, teams of two, sniper teams situated at the...

Team #1 ... infamous behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll.
Team #2 ... Texas School Book Depository (Mac Wallace's thumb print was found on one of the boxes on the 6th floor).
Team #3 ... Caltex building ('Big Oil' strikes again!).
Team #4 ... storm water drain in front of the Stemmons Freeway (I think) overpass... and (perhaps) Dallas Records building.

Many witnesses saw JFK's limo stop until the fatal shot was delivered. The driver, Greer, used a yellow stripe freshly painted on the kerb as a reference to know exactly where to stop.

I used to think LHO was the lone nut. I still wish somehow that it were true. BUT IT IS NOT!

[Odin2005]

36. Oh, you mean the reasonable theory not based on BS conspiracy nuttiness?

I have never seem a JFK conspiracy theory that wasn't filled with ideologically-based assumptions, circular reasoning, and truthiness.

[WinkyDink]

88. Perfect description of the Pristine Bullet Theory!

[NutmegYankee]

128. There is no pristine bullet. It's a lie, and you shamelessly propagate it. n/t

[WinkyDink]

160. Oh, please. It's well-known short-hand for the "how did it get there?"

bullet on the hospital hallway gurney.

[NutmegYankee]

174. Lost momentum.

It didn't fully embed itself in the Gov's thigh because it had lost energy after puncturing both of them.

And please, I know rifles quite well (own 7 of them), so spare me the bullshit.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

47. no....

... I have a friend who says the secret service agent driver turned and shot JFK... This friend, he made me and my husband watch the Zapruder film about 15 times in slow motion -- I finally agreed with his theory just to make it go away.... Just like people who give false confessions.

[Lilith Velkor]

54. Try, try, try to understaaaand...

Magic Bullet Man, ooooo he gots the magic plan.

[mitchum]

58. No, I don't buy it...and Arlen the Errand Boy is indeed a co-conspirator

[praeclarus]

61. lone nut gunman, single bullet, is hogwash ...

... and the people who come on talking about the evidence
that proves this steaming pile of a story are either stupid,
delusional, or general fukwits, possibly paid to be that way.
he he.

That is all. Carry on, citizens.

[NutmegYankee]

62. The bullet traveled in a straight line.

Forget that bullshit hollywood movie, the fact is that when the wounds are compared to the position the men were seated in the car, the bullet travels in a straight trajectory, just like one would expect a bullet to do. The bullet shows signs of deformation that is similar to the expected deformation of a rifle round when traveling through flesh. Some of you watch too much tv, and seem to think all bullets flatten out as if it hit the back of a steel range.

There were no zigs and zags. The problem here is that people WANT to believe there is a second shooter conspiracy, and ignore any evidence to the contrary.

When the irrefutable physics is presented, people then go off on tangentials like asking about coincidences and non-technical issues to support their view. If this were a political debate, that would be called changing the f*cking subject. But no, this is conspiracy talk, so its business as usual.

Oh yeah, there is another reality in this country. Was at least 49 million of the f*ckers in Lala land at last count.
This ignorance of science in support your political view is just as shameful as those of the Lala land.

[BadgerLaw2010]

124. Also, Oswald was shooting high sectional density FMJ ammunition.

Those do not expand unless the jacket blows apart, which is what happened on the head hit. FMJ bullets are not supposed to look "damaged" after hitting flesh.

[Colorado Progressive]

64. No, because Seinfeld made fun of it

so it cant be true! But really, I dont think anyone believes that theory.

[WileEcoyote]

67. Kennedy's Lincoln Continental took shots into the front window

However it was taken under military guard to Detroit where all it's front windshield and frame were removed and replaced. Obstruction of justice.

"Jim;s Conspiracy Corner" At www.Stephaniemiller.com

And if Lee Oswald did the deed the better shot was BEFORE the motorcade came around the building across the street. Not after when the target was getting smaller.

What serious sniper would leave his gun hanging out a window? He's leave it six ft. back in the shade.

Heard tell that the APB for Oswald's killing of police officer J. D. Tippit went out some 20+ minutes before he was actually shot!

Then there is Jack Ruby.

Not to mention the words that Bush 41 and the Late William Casey (both former heads of the CIA) said of the day (Nov., 22, 1963) were EXACTLY the same:

"I have no recollection of the events surrounding that date at all".

The only two people who claimed not to know what they were doing. Go ahead and ask anyone fifty years or older what they were doing that day. most will tell you something very specific. I even remember what i had for lunch in the third grade.

[TheWraith]

68. I think that you perpetuate a myth by calling it the "magic bullet"

I did the same until I knew better. Careful examinations of the videos show that the wounds sustained by the two men are, actually, consistent with a single bullet's flight path. To make it a magic bullet, you'd have to place both men sitting in the vehicle facing perfectly forward, whereas in fact the Governor was turned to one side, accounting for how the bullet struck him. The video also shows that his jacket was bunched up in such a way that it explained the odd holes created by the shot.

Whether you want to argue CIA involvement, different shooter, different weapon, whatever, relying on the myth of the "magic bullet theory" isn't the best argument by far.

[Kelly Rupert]

97. Thank you. n/t

[cgrindley]

71. Have you ever actually shot a gun?

cause I'm betting that you haven't. My kids go to the range once a week and easily could have killed Kennedy with the same crappy bolt action rifle with the same poorly adjusted scope in the same amount of time from three times the distance. It's not a difficult shot to make. 260 feet? Let's talk when it's 260 yards.

To anyone who's actually shot a gun... if you can't get off 3 shots with a bolt action rifle in under 8 seconds and score at least one head shot on a target at 100 yards, you're just not trying.

And to the conspiracy nuts out there... have you actually held a 6.5 x 52 round? have you seen how huge the actual bullet is? it's a freaking giant and weighs about 160 or so grains, about the same size as a .30-06 but thinner and longer.

[Thothmes]

72. 30-06

Believe the military 30-06 fmj projectile weight 147 grains.

[slackmaster]

82. Ouch - Oh wait, I read that wrong

You have shot a gun, not BEEN shot.

:D

[truebrit71]

86. Bollocks...

...he was a shit shot, had a crappy rifle, with an effed up sight, but he still managed the shooting, recycling, re-acquiring the moving target, shooting, recycling, re-acquiring the moving target, shooting and nailing your target when the second and third shots are right on top of each other...

Sorry, but that's not a lack of effort it's bullshit...

[BadgerLaw2010]

122. Who said he was a good shot? He missed twice inside 100 yards with a scope.

That's missing the entire *target* twice, not missing by a few inches. The body shot doesn't count because he wasn't aiming at that. Or if he was, he "missed" on the head shot. When you're off from point of aim by that much, it's a "miss" even if you somehow hit something by dumb luck.

And #2 and #3 were hardly on top of each other. They're several inches apart, which is absolutely unacceptable for bench rest rifle shooting at 100 yards.

Have you ever even used a gun?

[truebrit71]

126. #2 nd #3 were much closer to each IN TIMING....

...is what I was referring to...and YES I have used a gun...

[dogday]

73. My biggest problem with it was the way a trained SS agent

brought the car to almost a dead stop in the kill zone... He was trained to drive that car, and drive it fast in case this exact thing should ever occur... That was his one job and he messed up...

The other is the way the SS agents were waved off of the back of the vehicle before it made it's turn around toward the book depository building... The film still gives me chills, you can see one of the SS agent throwing his hands in the air wondering why they were being called away from the vehicle...

[WinkyDink]

89. Here's the dealey-o: NOBODY KNEW there would be a FILM!

The conspirators accounted for a lot, but never that.

JFK clutches his throat. Now whoever reaches toward an EXIT wound? Finally, the SIDE of his head is blown away.
So, he was shot in the upper back, the throat, and the temple. The car's not being on a hill, how would any of these bullets next manage to get to Gov. Connally, and then STILL look as new as the day it was loaded?

[Kelly Rupert]

98. Why not reach towards the exit wound?

It's a wound. It feels the same. It's not like you'd know which is which; bullets are pretty damn fast, and the exit wound can be even more gruesome than the entry wound. There's a gaping, bleeding hole in his throat. He clutched it--natural instinct, as throat wounds are more dangerous than virtually any other--rather than reach around for the one in the back.

Pretty weak argument there.

Also, "they didn't think someone might happen to be filming the President when he's out in public" is a pretty damn obvious oversight.

[WinkyDink]

158. 1963 didn't have a million camera-phones, okay? Zapruder was not seen as a FILM

by the public until 1969 (ironically, at the conspiracy trial prosecuted by Jim Garrison).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapruder_film

And since when was the throat wound "gaping"? It was so small that a tracheotomy obliterated it.

[NutmegYankee]

127. Wrong.

The other poster addressed the throat wound, but the bullet does NOT (ACTUAL FACT) look as new as the day it was loaded, it was flattened quite a bit in the end on pictures, and the shooter was well above his targets shooting down, no hill needed. Kennedy was sitting higher than the Gov, and the bullet had a downward trajectory.

[WinkyDink]

159. No, JFK wasn't "sitting higher". And yes, I know the bullet had a downward trajectory (assuming it

came from the TBDB), which is why it would have gone toward the floor, not shifted to go forward into Connally's wrist.

[BootinUp]

163. Try this

"It is absolutely false that the Single Bullet Theory requires the bullet to travel upwards. This is a misconception, based on the fact that the bullet holes on the President's shirt and jacket appear slightly lower than the exit wound in the President's throat would seem to allow." http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100sbt.html

However, a photograph taken by Robert Earl Croft about three seconds before the bullet strike (see below) shows the back of the President's jacket bunched up considerably at his neck; this probably accounts for the apparent discrepancy.

Or watch this short video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kEh3Kgwhk0

The person interviewed in the video has a complete web site on his computer reconstruction. He is not the only researcher to have reached the same conclusion, there was nothing magic, crooked, or inexplicable about the path of that bullet. Its a straight line, its the only way it could have happened!


http://www.jfkfiles.com/index.html

[NutmegYankee]

173. You could not be more wrong.

See the other post. LOL

Its like you're in another reality.

[Virginia Dare]

79. I totally believe it because Poopy told all the..

Kennedy C.T.'ers to STFU at Gerald Ford's funeral, so case closed...:sarcasm:

[Jamastiene]

83. No.

Yes. Yes. No. They can pull off any bullshit story at this point. The American people are gullible and naive.

[mdmc]

96. No

[bemildred]

101. No.

I always assume that Federal Blue Ribbon Commissions are in the business of putting lipstick on some pig (and stalling for time, of course). Specter is one of the finest liars in the US Congress, a very competitive crowd to excel in.

[Prophet 451]

109. I don't

Looking at the evidence3, it's possible that Oswald could have acted alone but the balance of probability is against it. I've fired the same make and model of rifle and it's a POS, apparently his sights were out of whack and Oswald was, according to his Marine assessments, a mediocre marksman. None of which prevents him making a lucky shot but it would have to be very lucky.

Then you add in the very unlikely trajectory of the round, the parade of cock-ups in the investigation, the missing evidence, the assassination of RFK (and there's no arguement there, Sirhan could simply not have fired that shot from where he was standing. Case closed) and the fact that the Senate Committee concluded that JFK was probably done in as the result of a conspiracy and the odds on Oswald acting alone become very long indeed.

Note that doesn't say who killed him or why. On those, I have no clue.

[Raejeanowl]

114. No, But It's Moot

There are fifteen different scenarios, most of the principals have died or disappeared, and the absolute, definitive, final truth is is now unknowable. Many "facts" are unprovable myths, other documented and ignored.

What I believe came down doesn't depend on a single bullet, anyway, and a single bullet, unlikely as that was, doesn't disprove what I believe.

He was offed by (on the order/at the pleasure of) someone other than LHO, whether Oswald was a single assassin or one of several shooters.

Many people reject the single bullet-crazy lone assassin theory because they don't wish to accept that JFK could have been taken out by an underachieving nut job. More people would reject organized crime as the force (my personal bets remain on Marcello). And as lovely a film as Oliver Stone made, it would have been too easy for the "military-industrial complex" to effect his political death by other means.

Unless someone wants to come forward and confess everything, the only other person whose opinion I'm really interested in hearing after all these years is Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg's.

[dailykoff]

132. It isn't unknowable and it sure as hell isn't moot.

Forget the physical evidence, let's just open a few of those millions of official documents "sealed" by court order and stored in the CIA, LBJ, and many other archives.

And it's only "moot" if you happen to be a descendant, beneficiary, backer or fellow traveler of the original conspirators, who are anything but unknown.

[Raejeanowl]

139. I Respectfully Disagree

I don't fall into any of those categories, and I still think you and many others are chasing chimeras (millions of court-sealed documents, indeed-were you even alive at the time?), because you will never, ever, be able to prove your theories. The conjecture will just go on, ad nauseum.

The real vault-keeper is the passage of time and the silence of dead men.

[dailykoff]

141. "Even 40 years later CIA briefings to stay secret"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1735050&mesg_id=1735050

I am not of the opinion that justice is a "chimera" and I am frankly suspicious of anyone who is.

[Raejeanowl]

142. And This Article Is Relevant How?

Two is not millions, and a FOA appeal is not "court-ordered seal." You exaggerated and mischaracterized in trying to make your point. And ignored the other reasons I challenged you for being full of it.

Moreover, the two measly documents cited here have nothing to do with the JFK assasination and conspiracy, which may I remind you is what was being discussed.

Unfortunately, you're beginning to flatter me with your distrust, and I'm sure of little except that was NOT your intent.

In sincere reciprocity, I'm not of the opinion that wild conjecture, sloppy reasoning, and third-hand information is the way to justice, and I am frankly suspicious of anyone who thinks it is (especially when they're not discriminating about where and how they get their "facts").

[dailykoff]

143. "a U.S. appeals court ruled" = court ordered secrecy.

Why don't you read the article, or at least click the link?

The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency may refuse to release documents from 40 years ago to the public to protect long-held secrets, a U.S. appeals court ruled on Tuesday.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the CIA did not have to give up the documents under the Freedom of Information Act aimed at opening up government activity to the public.

Larry Berman, a California political science professor, had sought two documents, one from 1965 and another from 1968, known as the President's Daily Brief (PDB), in which the CIA briefed then President Lyndon Johnson.

The ruling protects not just the two PDBs sought by this particular FOIA request but the millions of other state documents held in intelligence and presidential archives relevant to the JFK assassination.

[dysfunctional press]

164. "...the original conspirators, who are anything but unknown."

really?

then who are they...?

i want NAMES.

[dailykoff]

171. Hint: it wasn't Fidel.

And if you really want names, send me a PM and I'll give you a few.

[Mutineer]

134. Don't know, don't care. I believe the country has bigger problems

at the moment than a murder case that's over 40 years old. Think about what you could be doing for your time to change the world now (working for a candidate or campaign) instead of being obsessed by what happened ages ago. I'm so sick of the tin-foil hat crowd here.

[AntiFascist]

161. The country's "bigger problems" haven't really changed much in 40 years...

consider the first JFK assassination conspiracy theory, put forth in a book first published in 1968, "Farewell America":

"Most of the text is a damning jeremiad, portraying pre-1964 America as a vicious, discriminatory oligarchy controlled by alliances of Big Steel and Big Oil, the military and organized crime, which all had reason to fear JFK's proposed reforms. According to "Hepburn," these interests combined with ultra-right-wing paramilitary groups like the Minutemen and Cuban exile groups to plan the assassination. Chapters discussing the assassination itself will be grimly convincing to some readers, with excellent analyses of the Secret Service's failures and the ambiguous roles played by the CIA and FBI during this tumultuous era."

Consider how this relates to all the mafia-like crime and MIC profiteering our government is allowing to occur in the Iraq War, or the ambiguous role played by the FBI in the run-up to 9/11, or the ambiguous role played by the CIA in confirming Iraq's nonexistent WMDs. Which popular candidates are really capable of bringing about much change where the CIA and other government agencies are concerned?

[Bolo Boffin]

135. The "magic bullet" theory is a strawman for what officials actually think what happened.

So, no, I do not buy the "magic bullet" theory and neither does any thinking individual.

However, Lee Harvey Oswald hit both Kennedy and Connally with a single, straight-line shot. This has been demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt.

[BootinUp]

136. O-ohhhh

boloboffin is back. This thread could just be warming up. Cheers.

[mhatrw]

145. Of course it has, Posner.

Case Closed!

:rofl:

[Bolo Boffin]

162. You appear to have misspelled my name.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/index.html

[HamdenRice]

166. Definitively proven by a right wing magician with an unloaded gun

or was it by the psychic spoon bender? I'm pretty sure it wasn't a talking gorilla.

I get your authoritative sources mixed up sometimes.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Bolo Boffin]

176. Try talking sense. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

138. Yah, sure. Why not?

[dysfunctional press]

140. i've given up thinking about it- we'll never know for sure what the truth is or was...

so why waste time and/or effort with it...?

[Raejeanowl]

146. My Point Exactly

Thanks.

[mhatrw]

144. No. Magic bullet = magic cell phones = magic debris field. n/t

[HamdenRice]

165. Back and to the left. Back and to the left.

Otherwise you have to believe in the jet brain propulsion theory.

[Time for change]

167. Specter WAS a co-conspirator

Dr. Malcolm Perry, the doctor at the Dallas hospital where JFK was treated and died, and who performed the tracheotomy incision, testified repeatedly that the bullit that caused the throat wound came from the front, i.e. in the direction of the grassy knoll, which means that Oswald could not possibly have shot that bullit, since the book depository was facing towards the back of JFK's head when he was shot.

Specter repeatedly tried to get him to change his story. Finally, exasperated that he couldn't get him to change his opinion, he gave Dr. Perry a hypothetical. He said something to the effect, "Let's suppose that the bullit that caused the throat wound entered from the back of the neck.... blah blah blah.... and came out the front of the neck. In that case, would you call the wound in the throat an exit wound or an entrance wound." (Perry had repeatedly said it was an entrance wound). Given that hypothetical Perry admitted that in that case he would call it an exit wound. And that was all the Warren Commission needed to go on from there.

[benEzra]

169. As a longtime shooter and student of shooting and ballistics--yes.

I believe Oswald was the lone shooter.

I do not necessarily believe he was not involved in a wider conspiracy (his assassination by Ruby raises flags, certainly), but I believe he was the lone shooter.

[Ahpook]

180. I think whoever actually did the shooting is not extremely...

important. The people that hired the hit should be the focus.

By the way, Did Garrison actually meet with a "Mr. X" or was that fiction in Stone's movie? I have a Robert Wilson book around here somewhere that mentioned this. The character was based on Fletcher Prouty if i remember correctly.

Just curious...

[Vidar]

178. No, I rate it right up there with Jack's magic beans.

[jobycom]

179. I do.

I don't see any other way it could have happened, unless a shooter was lying on Governor Connally's lap and fired through his chest.

Surely you've seen all the computer mockups which prove that the bullet traveled in a straight line, and all the ballistics evidence that demonstrates that the "pristine bullet" was in fact distorted exactly the way a bullet would be if it did exactly what it is supposed to have done. Probably not, though. It's a sad state of affairs when people fight to prevent science and history taught in schools because they prefer Creationism and Conspiracy crap.