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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 07:45 PM
Original message
Hillary Rolls On: Are Netroots a Paper Tiger?
Published on Tuesday, September 4, 2007 by CommonDreams.org
Hillary Rolls On: Are Netroots a Paper Tiger?
by Jeff Cohen

As a longtime progressive tired of ineffective protesting, I’ve watched in glee as MoveOn has amassed political power by Webbing a few million of us and our dollars together. I’m a proud MoveOn member, even though I disagree sometimes with its leaders (mostly over too-cozy relations with top Democrats).

And as a longtime proponent of independent media, I’m gleeful that liberal/progressive bloggers have seized a new medium to mobilize millions of activists and confront a Democratic elite that seemed unwilling to confront and beat Team Bush.

Given my glee, it’s difficult for me to have to pose this question: Are the Netroots a paper tiger - more roar than bite?

Despite being overwhelmingly opposed to the nomination of Hillary Clinton, the Netroots have so far done little to slow down her coronation. Boosted by celebrity-worshipping corporate media (and a maximum donation from Rupert Murdoch himself), Hillary Clinton keeps rolling on - allied with the corporate lobbyists and Democratic insiders loathed even by moderately liberal bloggers.

Meanwhile, Clinton has never been popular among the Netroots. She’s never moved out of single digits in the (unscientific) monthly straw poll of DailyKos readers, while John Edwards has averaged 38 percent in the last six months among Kossacks, with Barack Obama averaging 26 percent.

In an April straw poll of MoveOn members following a virtual town hall on Iraq, the results were Obama (28%), Edwards (25%), Dennis Kunicich (17%) and Bill Richardson (12%) - followed by Clinton in fifth place with 11 percent. Clinton did better following a July town hall on climate change, but finished in third place, 17 points behind Edwards.

The reality is stark: While it’s hard to find a MoveOn leader or respected progressive blogger who supports Clinton, they can’t (or won’t) stop her.

Several factors may explain why most Netroots leaders are not taking stronger action:

MORE >>>

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/04/3610/
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 08:16 PM
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1. k
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:03 PM
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2. What a bunch of hooey.
The real reason HRC maintains her lead is that the Netroots, in reality, only represents a tiny fraction of the electorate. The successes of '06 is a false dichotomy. The combination of the publics nosediving support the Chimpy's Iraq Misadventure along with the RePukes' scandal of the week probably had 20 times more of an effect on the voters than anything the Netroots groups has ever done.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. hmm
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. I agree. We are too small yet....
... with the exception on Moveon, which uses raised money to confront people in public and on TV, most of the netroots is a small insular group just talking amongst themselves.

If more of the netroots could apply themselves to outwards facing activism, they might be able to accomplish more.

In fact, the thought just occurs to me that it's possible the netroots hurts to some extent by short circuiting people's need to "do something" by giving them message boards that make them feel they've "done something" when all they've done is to talk progressive ideas, or bash non-progressive politicians to other progressives who already, more of less, generally agree.

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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. !
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. Fourteen months is a lifetime in politics.
Isn't it a bit premature to evaluate the results of the 2008 election?
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. food for thought
Edited on Wed Sep-05-07 08:54 AM by helderheid
More : http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/04/3610/

1) They “misunderestimate” the potential hazards of another Clinton White House.

While progressives desperately want a Democratic president, the last Clinton in the White House subverted the progressive agenda. Eight years of Clintonite triangulation caused the Democratic Party to decline at every level of government. Hillary today is surrounded by the same staff and would likely appoint the same corporate types to top jobs as Clinton I, where big decisions were often corrupt and calculated toward moneyed interests.

The toughest brawl Bill Clinton was willing to wage (besides saving his own hide from impeachment) was against the Democratic base: for the corporate-backed NAFTA. Through the 1996 Telecommunications Act, Bill brought us far more media conglomeration than George W. He pardoned well-connected fugitive financier Marc Rich, while leaving Native American activist Leonard Peltier to rot in prison despite pleas from Amnesty International and others.

Hillary’s contribution to Clinton I was her botched healthcare proposal, a corporate-originated “reform” that would have enshrined a half-dozen of the largest insurance companies at the center of the system, and was so convoluted it never came up for a vote.

What we’ve seen of Hillary Clinton in the Senate and on the campaign trail suggests that Clinton II would indeed be a sorry sequel. Today she’s winning the endorsement of Republican CEOs, after having had Murdoch host a benefit for her at the Fox News building in 2006. Just as Bill Clinton’s spine achieved a rare firmness while battling for NAFTA, we recently observed in Hillary a rare passion and firmness on a single issue: her YearlyKos defense of lobbyists, including those who “represent corporations that employ a lot of people.”

Like Bill campaigning as a populist and governing as a corporatist, Hillary’s stump speech proclaims she’ll end the Iraq war in January 2009, while she assures the New York Times of a long-term U.S. military presence inside Iraq. She’s tried to explain away her vote to authorize the war, but avoids mention of her even more dubious vote hours earlier against requiring United Nations approval (or, if U.N. approval failed, a second Congressional authorization) before war could begin. Her overall bellicosity on Iran and the Middle East wins praise from conservative pundits; her “Israel-right-or-wrong” stance could make Christian Zionists blush.

In too much of the liberal blogosphere, history begins with the Florida election theft of 2000, and events before that time seem ancient and irrelevant. There is insufficient grasp of how the Clintons’ rise to power was intertwined with the corporate-sponsored Democratic Leadership Council - set up 22 years ago to weaken the power of the grassroots (labor, feminist, civil rights) inside the party. Still on the attack in 2004, the DLC targeted new villains, like MoveOn and the Dean upsurge.

2) They want to be Democratic “team players.”

Matt Bai’s new book on the Democratic Party, “The Argument,” has a passing reference to Hillary Clinton’s courtship of MoveOn leaders in private meetings: “Her charm appeared to have paid off: while MoveOn’s members remained furious at Clinton for voting with Bush on the war resolution, its leaders refused to criticize her publicly.”

In truth, MoveOn leaders have gone beyond refusing to publicly criticize Hillary Clinton - actually finding bizarre excuses to praise her on some of her worst issues, like Iran and Iraq. During the 2006 Democratic Senate primary in New York, it was not a shock that MoveOn’s leadership would not help Clinton’s antiwar challenger, Jonathan Tasini, an under-funded long shot. But what purpose was served by not criticizing her when she brazenly refused to even debate Tasini on the war - or by lauding her for a McCain-like critique of Don Rumsfeld’s war “mismanagement”?

With MoveOn avoiding criticism of Clinton in ‘05, ‘06 and half of ‘07, then when?

Netroots leaders seem almost mute today as Hillary Clinton makes full use of old media/old money advantages. Bloggers who loudly championed the Dean insurgency are oddly quiescent as the candidate of the party establishment gains ground. Have these young insurgents become Democratic Party elder statespersons - team players first and foremost? Has the courtship by Party insiders quieted them?

What animated the meteoric growth of MoveOn and progressive blogs was a crucial insight: that the Democratic establishment was too spineless or clueless to stand up to the Bush agenda. This insight has never been more relevant than now - with Bush an unpopular lame duck and Democratic leaders in Congress offering “little other than one failure after the next since taking power in January,” in Glenn Greenwald’s words.

Ancient history, from 1993-1994, teaches us that loyalty to party should never come before loyalty to principles - and that which Democrats hold power can be as important as whether Democrats hold power. I was a young(er) columnist when Bill Clinton entered the White House and Democrats controlled Congress. We didn’t get promised campaign finance reform; we didn’t get promised investment in the cities; we didn’t even get a vote on healthcare - since the Clintons had undermined and triangulated the 100 Democrats in Congress co-sponsoring a bill for nonprofit National Health Insurance. But we did get NAFTA.

And soon - inevitably and predictably -we got the Gingrich counterrevolution.

3) There’s no Dean campaign to unite them - just “Edwama.”

In the last three months of DailyKos reader polls, Edwards and Obama have combined for more than 60 percent of the vote - as against only 8 percent for Clinton.

Despite being hammered by corporate media, Edwards retains deep Netroots support as he pushes a progressive, populist message that evokes Bobby Kennedy’s 1968 campaign. Fueled by Internet fundraising, Obama has inspired a huge grassroots following, especially among youth and people of color. Both are tagging Clinton as the candidate of moneyed lobbyists. Either - especially Edwards - would likely appoint a cabinet quite different than the corporate Clintonites one would get from Hillary. At this stage, it looks like only Edwards or Obama can beat Clinton; polls of Iowa Democrats show a three-way race among them.

Were Edwards or Obama to drop out of the race today, Netroots support would likely galvanize behind the other. The current 63-8 percent “Edwama” edge over Clinton among Kossacks would become at least a 50-15 percent landslide for Edwards or for Obama. (And it’s hard to argue Clinton is more electable in a general election, since she provokes even more loathing among conservatives than wariness among progressive activists.)

The reality is that neither Edwards nor Obama is dropping out. There is no Dean candidate at the moment.

But that should not prevent Netroots leaders and progressive bloggers from speaking out loudly and clearly about their objections to Clinton’s policies and associations, and the negative consequences of her leading the Democrats in 2008 - in long-term electability, governance and movement building.

* *

Reporting the results of his July straw poll in which Edwama outpolled Clinton 7 to 1, DailyKos founder Markos gloated that he was among the 5 percent who voted “No Freakin’ Clue”: “I’m enjoying the campaigns without any emotional investment in any of them. It’s quite liberating. I wish more of you would give it a shot.”

Here was a key Netroots backer of Dean sitting on the sidelines four years later, encouraging a laissez-faire attitude over who is the 2008 Democratic nominee.

If 2004 taught anything, it’s that it matters mightily who the nominee is. Despite all the organizing, fundraising, phone-banking, canvassing and concertizing, it’s hard to beat even a discredited Republican with a Democratic candidate who comes across as a vacillating and calculating Washington insider.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. Oh, really? If Dean was so great, why didn't he win the primaries?
The fact is Kerry was the BEST CANDIDATE in the field. Your analyis of "vacillating and calculating Washington insider" is utter BS, and shows it is YOU who are ininformed of the 2004 candidate. Google Iran/Contra and BCCI with JK's name and tell me again how he is a "calculating Washington insider". I'm really sick and tired of the hand wringing from 2004 that amounts to "it was Kerry's fault". So how did the Democratic media offensive against the surge in August 2007 go? Oh, right, there WASN'T ANY!!! So are you going to blame Kerry for that, too? Or maybe, just maybe, we have issues in our party that did not go away when Kerry exited the presidential campaign stage. When everyone blames Kerry instead of answering the deeper, more troubling questions of why we lost in '04 -- the media, the lack of Dems tag teaming enough, the lack of good DNC organizing, the lack of securing the election IN ADVANCE by the DNC, and so on -- that means those problems aren't being fixed.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. This isn't my analysis - there was a link in the post you are replying to.
Your beef is not with me.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. Whose The Netroots Candidate??
Is it Obama? Edwards? Kucinich? Some may even toss Ron Paul's name in there. While Edwards has done well in Kos polls, they're just as reliable as any online poll...the flavor of the moment...and a vote in an online poll means little when it comes to money or doing the legwork needed to win an nomination.

The netroots aren't kingmakers...it's too diverse. While many are active in campaigns, there's a large number who sit behind keyboards and do little else. Most of the netroot fund raising has also been on the local level...not behind a presidential candidate, thus its the candidates organization on the ground that still makes the difference.

Lastly, who speaks for the netroots? Is it Kos? The folks at MoveOn? Atrios? None of these people, to my knowledge have endorsed a candidate or are actively fundraising for any. Also, donating money is one thing...it's how its used that counts. Hillary has the best "on the ground" organization in this election cycle and this shows in her lead in key states that will determine the nomination...many of these states (not Iowa or New Hampshire, but California, New York, Illinois and other Feb 5th states that will determine the nominee). I don't see organizations for other candidates on the level of Clinton...and that's what wins nominations.

While the netroots have provided a new input and means for many to get politically involved...sending a check or voting on an online poll is not the same as politically involved. That requires ringing door bells, making endless phone calls and the "grunt" work...one vote and voter at a time. While it has some financial say, there's still no consensus candidate with a better organization that is forming a solid opposition to Clinton.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Al Gore....n/t
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Stop Teasin' Me Will Ya...
:hi:
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. YES!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
8. No, just a voice of truth and warnings being
Edited on Wed Sep-05-07 09:10 AM by mmonk
smothered by the pervasive msm and political double speak candidates. Trying to tell the truth is like yelling in a room of persons who are deaf since birth. Netroots is the strategy of using braille and sign language. It won't be easy, but has to be done to communicate to people.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's a grassroots problem, not a "netroots" problem
Edited on Wed Sep-05-07 09:44 AM by Armstead
Part of the perception advanced is that people in the "netroots" are a seperate species.

In reality, people who communicate and/or "activate" online are a diverse collection of people. True, those who regularly frequent political sites and blogs and discussion boards are more interested in polityics and issues than the ordinary apathetic slob. However, there are many degrees of people who participate in the netroots, to varying degrees.

IMO, the problem is more that the Corporate/Political/Media Elites do so much filtering of information that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get any information beyond a very narrow spectrum -- unless one goes to the trouble of seeking it out online or in print.

It is more of a question of the GRASSROOTS in general. I seldom find a Democrat of any stripe who really likes Hilary. Most are inclined against her. This is not just "netroots" peopel or lefties. It includes many moderate Democrats.

Which leads to the bigger problem. If someone is an average person who gets their news from mainstream television, radio and print media,they are only going to be presented with a One-Dimensional portrayal of a race between three candidates. Hilary is (insert meme here); Obama is (insert meme here) and Edwards is (insert meme here).

Thus, they only get a shallow and stereotyped view of the "top three" candidates, with no real discussion of their actual policies, qualifications or other nuances.

And, worse yet, the rest of the candidates are not even mentioned. Or else they are dismissed briefly in cartoon terms.

How many voters have been informed, for example, that Kucinich is offering a real -- and detailed -- alternative for healthcare. Whether a voter agrees or disagrees with his proposal, voters should at least have the opportunity to be aware 1)That Kucinish exists 2)That he is not merely a cartoon elf and 3)That he does offer a real alternative for healthcare.

Likewise for the other non-entity Democratic candidates. The long Senate records of Dodd and Biden? Doesn't matter compared to Hilary's one-and-a-fraction terms. She's the one with "experience" acfording to the MSM and DLC.

So the issue is not whether the "netroots" are a paper tiger. The real issues is that the Elites continue to shove their Corporate Elite candidates down the throats of everyone -- without the real contest of ideas that politics is supposed to represent.

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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. excellent post. Wish I could recommend it.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
12. Interesting Comments by DU'ers here on thread but more at the OP's link
The Comments on the Article at the link are also worth a read for those of us DU'ers who are seriously concerned with the direction things are taking with our party.


http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/04/3610/
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
14. i think it shows how msm dwarfs netroots
imagine if msm provided an honest take on hrc-she , and her corporate entourage, would not stand a chance. People don't have the time to sort through message boards and instead rely on asses like katey couric and matt lauer.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. Maybe "the netroots" could countenance the possibility that Clinton isn't QUITE as bad...
... as "the netroots" makes her out to be?

Nah! It's everyone else that's wrong!
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LSdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
20. Just because some of us like other candidates better, doesn't mean we hate Hillary
I'm sure there are plenty of people here who want anybody but Hillary, there are plenty of us who like other candidates more but no not necessarily feel a burning desire to stop Hillary. We have a really great slate of candidates, none of them flawless, but all quite appealing.

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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
21. "the Netroots have so far done little to slow down her coronation." Hail, Queen Hillary! n/t
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