There's no point in all this discussion, you know

[Cronus Protagonist]

We're all TOYS! TOYS! TOYS I tell you! So quit taking things so damn seriously, k?

[MatrixEscape]

1. Of course!

Glad you get it!

But then, to me, there is no communication. Flowers bloom, trees grow, human noise happens. It does not require anything but itself and people are convinced that they do it. It is only just happening. It is a pattern. Human beings are trained to think they do things and make things happen. They believe. They have faith. Those two factors require an inculcated sense of being somehow clearly separate from what appears to be going on. That creates subjective states like tension, anxiety, alienation, struggle, etc. That's what keeps the world of language-based reality, (as opposed to the Edenic, natural state) going around and around.

Case in point:
http://www.sensiblyeclectic.com/news/index.php?/archives/5763-Post-Mortem-America-Bushs-Year-of-Triumph-and-the-Hard-Way-Ahead.html

Ahhh, but there are so very many. You have to learn how to be a part of a society or culture. That means you are a part of a rather ancient mythology based purely on language as a replacement for anything organismic or actual. It is all about symbolic buffers that seem even more real than the structures that actually support the complex process of replacing actuality with abstraction.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. There was no need for that

I didn't understand it even, but the only thing that matters is that you said it.

[MatrixEscape]

5. Go to the head of the class,

and claim your blade of grass ... grasshopper!

My clouds are moving without observation in the dead of night. Is there a moon to illuminate that just now?

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. If you see a moon, there it is

And you are free to see whatever you wish.

[MatrixEscape]

22. I know no Moon!

It is a light that does not know me and we are only friends because of it. I had not intention of knowing that Moon, and it had no intention of letting me know it. There! We see that the relationship was not mutual but of itself alone.

[MatrixEscape]

4. And yet,

Our species loves to pretend, don't we?

We wonder if the Internet and all this white noise is really a bane or a blessing as we see that we talk more about what we think and feel while we see that the results seem to be more stubborn and fascist reactions from those who seemingly control the actual course of things, or, at least, pretend to better than we can.

We grow up on fairy tales, stories and religious convictions that are solidly and solidly inserted into our developing minds way before we have the capacity to accept, reject, or sort them out with any logic or reason. Heck, we don't even really know that we are a separated ego for many years. And after all that, when we go looking for the actual "mind" that this was all inserted into for the sake of survival and fitting in, we can't even find it. We can find a restaurant or a bookstore, or our right and left hands even, but we can't find the mind that we are told we have and that tethers us to everything that seems to take greater precedence over the organism that supports our very journey through this experience.

And so, we might yearn for some sort of maturity in a culture, (another big abstract like, "society") that talks about maturity but uses its vast and burgeoning manifestations of knowledge no better than children in Kindergarten could change the break pads on their parent's automobiles. We don't really see much in the way of maturation as we ponder the early mythical level we are raised in and the ensuing one that takes root in adolescence where idealism comes into play.

Then, we encounter the realms of logic and reason, that is, if we are able to transcend the fears of hell that religion invokes and then find a spirituality that is for those who have already been to hell. Reason and logic are merely a desert that you wander through to the point that, if you get it, only seem to be a segue to something transcendental and even intrinsic in our very nature -- something overlooked and therefore, seemingly impossible to grasp or experience. Mandalic reasoning comes when you take the time and effort to see that thoughts, reasoning, and intellect, all manage to turn back around into themselves, just as Relativity shows that space-time is curved and does the very same thing. That is a place that is pregnant for what is called an Archaic Revival. There may actually have been a form of intelligence that was not only natural, but easily accessible to our multi-million-year-old bio-computers. For now, that has been put aside and its legacy is squandered on the noisy, cacophony of verbalization as catharis, that seems to signify, as some now see, absolutely nothing when it comes to impact and effect.

If you ponder that and it makes you consider what yielding to your own nature might encompass and convey, then you might just be ready for the next wave that looms under the surface of the nightmare we call ordinary reality and might just be waiting to be born, like electric lighting and the automobile, under the very surface of the facade that is replacing our legacy currently.

It was once thought that we would never be able to fly. Many things were considered impossible and we are in an age when possibilities are daily disproving those conceptual barriers. The next, and most important barrier, may very well prove to be our own, personal, ideation about reality and what is actually going on. That may be our most difficult task and an invitation to the very greatest potential we, as a species, may have.

Throw off the Dominators. Do what you can to see more clearly. Give up the need for catharsis in place of action and actuality. That may imply a future that is above and beyond and far better than what we are being forged into believing.

[Cronus Protagonist]

8. I'm reminded of a Shakespeare quotation...

From Shakespeare's As You Like It, 1600:

JAQUES:
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

[Cronus Protagonist]

12. That reminded me of another one too. . .

"To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

--From Macbeth (V, v, 19)

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Are you trying to tell me that Emperor Zurg isn't real?

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. He's as real as you say he is . . .

. . . . for you.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. The Zen Student runs up to the Roshi and says "I Understand! I Understand! That rock over there is

inside my head!"

To which the master replies, "You must have a very big head- to hold a rock that size."

'Nite.

[MatrixEscape]

16. Well, it seems,

You must have a very big thread to hold both a rock and a head inside it.

We cannot talk about what I might have had a recourse to respond to.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Right. But my head holds the thread. And my head holds the idea of my head holding the thread.

Now my head is holding the idea of my head, holding the idea of my head holding the thread, holding the rock and the head.

[Cronus Protagonist]

19. My head contains brain matter

My imagination contains all thing and no thing. Both are part of all thing.

[MatrixEscape]

21. I am on the end of a precipice

where I cannot find your head. There is only a wild strawberry and as your post puts me at the end of a cliff with two tigers waiting to devour me if I face them, then this strawbeerry is the very best I have have ever tasted and you are merely a commercial that detracts me from what may be the only true and intense and deep experience that my entire life has ever given me.

From there your holding a head is about a head holding itself while imagines a rock. My rock is the mind that creates the head that then comes to know itself.

[MatrixEscape]

15. Are you trying to tell me ...

That there is any challenger to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Are you trying to tell, me, even though there is no communication possible, whatsoever, that the Giant Blue Transcendental Destroyer of Faith and Hope is not the Messiah at the End of Time?

Would you dare to imply that the currently submerged, Leviathan Sculptor of History and Existence, is not on our event horizon as history ends and we face the naked revelation of the final moment of unabridged novelty?

Well, you can do that if you think you exist. And well you do. I don't exist at all and know that for a certain fact, but you can apply your reason and ideas endlessly in order to argue the point. But what is most compelling is that, if I am right, then you are left in the same position as theists and atheists. You can assume my existence from the phenomena that you incur here via text on a forum, (which could easily be a bot) or you can wonder how someone who is certain, beyond any reasonable doubt they do not exist at all, could post to that effect and then entice you to consider that fact and even respond to it.

Do you exist? Well, you are welcome to take that idea you have for granted. It may just be the very cause of all the problems you tend to bitch and moan about as you apply the only moments of consciousness you may have to circumstances you find yourself in, from day to day. IT goes up and down, don't it? It gets happy and sad, depressing, elated, wonderful, hellish, Utopian, joyous, horrifying. Do you get it yet? It keeps on changing regardless of who you are or what the circumstances may be. You are at the crux of factors. You find yourself there and then daydream about nostalgic wonders and potential heavens. Yet, you never seem to wonder much about that constant shift and change that affects your own experience of circumstances and events. It is as if you are supposed to be in charge and control, and yet, you are subject to your personal set of implied moods and emotions based on prefabricated predictions. Just how is that flux a matter of free choice and personal power, then?

We never seem to question the nature of free will and its relation to determinism. I have. The result of that question is important and the result is more internal as it appears to be ineffable. The jury is out on this one, forever. Give it some thought.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. Say you're thinking of a plate of shrimp. Then somebody says "plate".. or "shrimp".. or

"plate of shrimp".

No explanation.

No point in lookin' for one, neither.

[porphyrian]

41. It's all part of a cosmic unconsciousness. - n/t

[Swamp Rat]

7. ok

:D

[Warren DeMontague]

9. ENOUGH with the porn threads, already!

Sheesh.

Anyway, Ron Jeremy's too classy for those other two fellas.

[Swamp Rat]

11. LOL!

Btw, what the hell were all those 'porn threads' about? I was away during most of that.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Oh, the usual fur-flinging.

Hmm, maybe that's not the best choice of words.

[MatrixEscape]

20. I only know fur ...

As something that brings warmth to naked apes.

To fling it without restraint is a waste of what makes my organism survive without giving blow-jobs to the sexy sirens that push corporate whores of Babylon into my personal picture where my body bows and shudders for warmth as an exchange of my time for survival. Oh, wait, the moon rises ... that is today's modern life!

Drop your bag and burn it now if you want to fill it with Zen. It is already too full for you to add anything of value to. Oh, you wanted a bag to put Zen in, didn't you? Fuck your bag and your Zen you pimp!

[Warren DeMontague]

44. Bub, you're taking shit far too seriously.

Metaphorical shit, literal shit, non-existent shit.

Maybe I'm just a "Zen Dumbtard" :wtf: but one thing I do know, from where *I* sit, one can't lay any claim to any kind of real wisdom if one doesn't have a sense of humor. And, congrats, you're one of the most tragically unfunny people I've come across in these parts.

I'm not sure who, precisely, you're trying to convince or convert, but it's not going to be me. So you can skip the high-minded lecturing, thanks.

[LeftCoast]

25. Well surprise surprise!

Yet another homophobic picture. Do we detect a trend here?

[MatrixEscape]

26. Do homophope react in homophobic ways, pretell?

Do hidden homophobes react in homophobic ways about homophonbes? Or is that a homophobic response to homophobia?

Or is a penis just an enlarged clitoris and we don't seem to see the difference, yet? Biology seems to tell all in very so-called spirutal ways.

[Cronus Protagonist]

27. A penis is clearly an enlarged clitoris

I understand also that the nutsack is made of labia fused together from the orginal female genitalia. But what do I know of miracles?

[MatrixEscape]

36. The miricale may be Unisex!

From what I understand, the fetus is basically female until other factors effect it.

And yet, we are seeing cultures steeped in the ultimate controls and definitions of sexuality and the implied role that go with that. It portrayed as if our very spirituality and survival is based on those mundane and biased manipulations of our basic drives.

What are the basic drives that are irrefutable? Food, reproduction, shelter, clothing. Regardless of how you order that, it is basic and undeniable. And yet, here we are. I would say that EVERYTHING beyond those basic and natural drives is neurotic to the ultimate degree. Now, based on that, how neurotic is the culture you condescend to? Are you able to provide that spectrum of needs for yourself and your family, (as your ancestors were able to) without being totally reliant on, mostly dominant and controlling, others to supply them to you? Is that situation how you would define freedom, then? Today, you are merely seeing how we have all managed to trade what we had as freedoms in relation to nature for freedoms that have nothing but endless strings attached to the process. We are going to have to come to an understanding about the relationship between mind and body and what needs are most important before we can sort this all out.

currently, we have "isms" that promote nothing much more than eternal life after this experience. From that perspective, much of what we are encountering now not only pales by comparison, it tends to make everything that is now and pertinent, invaluable and meaningless. If ou would stop to consider that dichotomy, then it should be much clearer to you what we are actually facing here. You can easily and effectively trade your current situation and existence as an organism for a a virtual encyclopedia of ideas, fads, pretensions, and imagined outcomes. I think we are all begging to see this part of the game and that is becoming the part and parcel of where we are to try to go to next.

[LeftCoast]

23. Nice gay-bashing!

Thanks buddy!

I come to DU to be surrounded by liberals and then I run across bigoted crap like this. Thanks for helping to make DU a less pleasant place for me. I really appreciate it.

I trust I don't need this icon ----> :sarcasm:

[MatrixEscape]

28. Heheh!

A dick is just an advanced, expanded clitoris.

Balls are just vaginal lips that have fused to hold testicles.

Males tend to have more sensitive nipples than females, and yet breasts are only about females.

Both sexes have a large number of nerve endings in the anus and can feel various degrees of pleasure for stimulation in that area.

The male prostate gland seems to respond to stimulation via the anus.

And yet, we all tend to worry and think about arbitrary differences that have been inculcated into us but tend to exclude the facts about the very wide and diverse nature of human sexuality at large. Who do we blame for that? Them? Us? Human sexuality is almost as diverse as nature itself and it seems to need to find expression without artificial suppression. So, we see a game being player here. That basic, primal energy as an expression of each being, is diverted into what we call norms for the sake of something other than what it relates to. That is what you call culture and society, people.

[LeftCoast]

30. Your discussion of anatomy, while correct, is irrelevant to the issue

That being, that on *this* level of consciousness, the continual stream of homophobic "humor" makes DU a less-than-inviting place for some of us.

[MatrixEscape]

32. My discussion of anatomy ...

is actually irrelevant to your idea that it is such at all.

There is not much on DU that does not make it less-than-inviting for me, but I tend not to get bent out of shape about it. That is, probably because I see myself as a part of a pattern and non-existent, rather than as an easily offended, limited, and docile, reactive being.

Everybody seems to have an issue or a button to push. Well, wowzers! Imagine that!

If you are going to hang around in a meaningless and Zennish thread, then is it not time to throw all those silly demarcations into the fire of purification and get over them? I mean, that is, if we don't have those who want to project their personal sensitivities on the salutation in a way that totally demands our attention as we are then obliged to assert and apply our genuine and heartfelt compassion in consideration to them, in their neediness, even though it might distract from the very direct insness of thisness that this is pointing at?

There is no dearth of causes and needs that will beckon to us in any given moment, for there are many that are due and pressing. In a public arena like this, they are apt to call forth and beckon our attention as they please.

I would like to leave the rest of this part of the discussion to gay and homophobic Zen Monks who have more to offer than any of us might be able to.

[LeftCoast]

33. It's not Zen. It's nihilist.

[MatrixEscape]

37. Zen, then , is a form ...

of total oblivion that you are not yet ready to deal with.

If Zen does not annihilate your fictitious mind, your unoriginal ideas, and inserted notions of self, as well as your cultural and societal comforts that make you feel so well connected to what you find normal and meaningful, then it is best left alone. Or, you could go on and on, connecting it with whatever fad you find convenient to place it in as you forge ahead in missing its point.

You are free to make Zen into whatever it might seem to be to you today, here, and now. You will ever be able to make Zen into what you hope it should be or want it be without suffering the kind of total frustration and humbling mockery that it will eventually prove your efforts to be.

You are a plagiarizers at heart, and so am I! Now ... what the fuck about Zen do you, or don't you, want or not want to get. Damn it! You can't get what cannot be gotten. You are not a you that cannot get what is.

There is a fuzzy haze. The sun rises. My compost heap turns black!

[Warren DeMontague]

55. "Ve are nihilists. Ve believe in Nusssing!"

"Ve takes the money!"

[Cronus Protagonist]

58. Nihilists can't pronounce "W"?

One learns something new every day . . . :)

[Warren DeMontague]

59. Oh, come on. You're telling me you've never seen "The Big Lebowski"?

Throw me a frikkin bone, here!

[Cronus Protagonist]

61. Never seen it.

I presume it's a movie?

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Oh. It's a classic. I highly recommend it.

Yeah, it's a movie. Coen bros.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118715/

[Truth2Tell]

63. dude, here.

Watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXQ9KHEC7FY

[Swamp Rat]

34. Namasté

[conscious evolution]

38. Namaste back at ya

[MatrixEscape]

24. I can only pretend to imagine that ...

ff some sort of Zen is you goal, go take a good dump. I mean a dump that is the result of lots and lots of meat eating. Now, go bend over humbly and smell it. Take it deep into your nostrils and try to contemplate the fruits and outcome of what has passed through your organism from mouth to anus. You made that! It is something you create almost every day, but tend to overlook in the sense of its Zen importance.

Your reaction to getting a good, realistic, well contemplated idea of what spews forth from your nether regions, (especially after consuming dead animals) will give you greater Zen insights than most of what you read and intellectualize in your futile attempts to grasp Zen rather than be rid of it as quickly as possible and, thusly, avoid the embarrassments of becoming nothing more than a pompous fool.

Zen is something that you get out of quickly if you are savvy and aware, and something that you get out of very slowly like everything else you are caught in, if you are slow and dull and have a strong penchant for what you thought was leading you to some sort of escape via Zen in the first place.

The rest is just a bowl of black beans. I don't really have to care.

[Cronus Protagonist]

29. You do talk a lot for a worm

I do try to enjoy my creatureliness, as you suggest.

[MatrixEscape]

31. You know, (no you don't)

You don't really give a fuck. All this mind fucking is fucked and you want to fuck more than you get fucked. No way do you want to kno how you fuck yourself as you continue to fuck this and that while bigger, badder monkeys fuck you in inconceivable ways.

So, you fuck with Zen hoping to fuck something that can't fuck you back, only to eventually, hopefully, realize that Zen will fuck you so bad and six ways to Sunday that all the fucking you did and was done to you will start to look like a morning cartoon that you watched in you most impressionable years when you were smart enough to be naturally dumb.

Right now, you are just toast in the Zen breakfast while imagining that today's version of Total Bullshit Zen is your personal Jaguar that you will be using to tour your realms of attainment in. Fuck your ideas of Zen. They are more worthless than any Zen you could possibly hope to find in that context. For you, Zen is shit in a child's diaper, so get used to it, already.

[Cronus Protagonist]

35. I doubt that was meant for me

Although it seemed to be so addressed. I don't do Zen. I don't be Zen. I don't eat Zen and I don't fuck Zen. Zen, to me, exists only when you speak of it. Afterwards and before, it is nothing.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. I suspect it was addressed to me. Frankly, I'm scratching my head how anyone could turn this thread

into some kind of a flame-fest.

Fuck a duck, I have no idea what precisely you're seemingly so pissed off about, other than perhaps the fact that some folks here didn't immediately bombard you with enough accolades for your lengthy, windy streams of what are -I'm sorry, but someone ought to say it- pretty much incomprehensibly pompous gibberish. (Maybe you can get a job on the Biden campaign?)

If you don't exist, then neither do your goofy fuckin' insults. Good day.

[Cronus Protagonist]

45. I don't see any connection to you at all

Maybe I'm not looking under the light.

:)

[Warren DeMontague]

47. Are we talking about Barack Obama's car keys, again?

I think I was the first one to introduce the dread word "Zen" into the thread, even if it was in the context of a Zen (that word, again!) Joke. And said poster got increasingly irate at me last night, apparently, for some reason I can't fathom- telling me to burn my bag or fuck my bag or burn my fucking bag or fuck my burning bag or something else...

So I naturally assumed he was ranting at me. Hard to decipher, that one. :shrug:

[Cronus Protagonist]

52. Beats me then

I don't get it. Perhaps I'm having a "Zen" moment :P

[Swamp Rat]

46. Maybe that question should be directed at the person flinging ad hominems at me.

Apparently I'm the new homophobe bigot pariah. :rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Things have been a little tense around here, lately.

See what happens when you take off for a few days?

[Swamp Rat]

49. Yep

But in all my time here, this is the only time I have ever been called a "bigot" or "homophobe." I felt no need to respond to or alert on such ridiculous accusations. Nevertheless, calling people names is still against DU rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

50. Anybody who has been paying attention knows who you are & where you stand.

I wouldn't worry about it, brother.

:hug:

[Swamp Rat]

51. Thanks!!

:hug:

I'm not worried. However, I am curious about that particularly unique reaction to my work. ;)

[Cronus Protagonist]

53. I thought that was all tongue in cheek stuff

At least that's how I read it.

[Warren DeMontague]

54. I missed the sarcasm thingy in one of those posts. Ooops.

My bad! :blush:

[Swamp Rat]

57. Actually

I thought the poster was being serious, which makes it all the more interesting. :D I thought the use of the "sarcasm" icon was a disclaimer, not a hint. Then again, I have had only a few hours sleep in as many days...... time for class. :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

56. Of course, it is.

:hi:

The unique reaction formation against the images was, nevertheless, very curious. ;)

[MatrixEscape]

39. Where are all the Zen

Dumbtards when you don't really need them?

This could be a time and a place where Zen Bastards that know they DON'T Exist, could supply the non-language that does not prove the unprovable and manages to place the here and now into the there and then of the dynamics of posting in the imagined past. Maybe we could even attempt to resolve that inherit discrepancy? You know, I wrote this now, you read that then, it is the past for me, bu, you think of it as the now for your experience. It may be a minor time-lag, but it matters when you relate it to the bigger picture, if time is really of the essence.

How precisely and by what criteria do you measure this inexperience? Maybe that is what actually matters. Does it sound lik eto much effort or like something your organism is already willing and able to handle if you let it?

[Cronus Protagonist]

42. I'm glad you said that

Someone had to say it.

[conscious evolution]

40. Time for an ice cream koan

Ice cream.
You scream.
We all scream.

[L. Coyote]

60. Discussion and taking it seriously is at the heart of Democracy. SO, keep it up DU!