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The policy that lost the Dems the Y2K election. And that no one wants to talk about..

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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:10 AM
Original message
The policy that lost the Dems the Y2K election. And that no one wants to talk about..
What lost the Dems the Y2K election was the disenfranchisement of literally millions of potential voters, the great majority of whom would have been slam dunk Democrats.

Every time the issue is raised here on DU it sinks like a stone.

With only two exceptions that I am aware of, every Democratic national level politician supports this policy which ensures the disenfranchisement of millions of potential Democratic voters and that contributes to the apathy of millions more.

Democrats basically support this policy because, as usual, they are chasing voters that wouldn't vote for a Dem if their life depended on it (which sometimes it actually does).

I'm going to let you figure it out..
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. wtf?
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'll take a guess
Ex-felon voting rights?

There has been some positive movement on that policy in the last few years: Iowa repealed its ban on ex-felon voting rights, and even Florida reformed it's ban to allow most non-violent ex-cons to vote.

Texas repealed its ban in 1997, under the signature of Gov. George W. Bush. That one drives the conservatives crazy.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. Disenfranchised voters along with a bought and paid for supreme court
that ruled against counting votes. How can we have a democracy when our own courts ruled against finding out exactly how the people voted? Welcome to the banana republic of the US of A.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. My question is why..
So many potential Democratic voters have been disenfranchised.

It's one of those things which is such a part of our culture that we don't even see it.
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. Because it has the veneer of legitimacy...
Edited on Wed Sep-05-07 12:34 PM by warren pease
The RNC, Rove, that shithead federal prosecutor in Tennessee I think(?) an I'm sure many others put the plan in place and Ms. Harris and Mr. Blackwell gave it the state govt. stamp of approval.

Also, there was zero reporting on MSM of voter "caging," voter role purging, felon purging (and if your name was the same or similar, you got purged too), and very little attention paid to the intentional mis-allocation of voting machines to ensure that GOP precincts voted easily and quickly, while those in democratic precincts often spent hours in line in lousy weather.

Combine that with the election eve Fox meme that Bush had won Florida, casting Gore's efforts to contest the results as the whinings of a loser, and then Kerry's 2004 instant concession (which still pisses me off beyond words) and there's the usual trappings of a legitimate state, adhering to the rule of law, presiding over another orderly transition of power, blah, blah, blah...

Meanwhile, the fuckers stole both elections from right under our noses and where in hell were the 30 million furious, disenfranchised voters jamming the streets of DC and making it impossible for the Codpiece in Chief to reach his illegitimate residence?

I know I wasn't there, my excuse being that I'm 3,000 miles away and old enough that rioting in the streets is no longer my preferred form of political expression. And neither was anybody else, except the usual smallish crowd of the truly furious who were ignored by mass media, beaten (when hidden from view) by the SS or the DC cops, and arrested if they uttered a word of protest.

Anyway, thanks to Palast, RFK Jr., and a few other people who "get it," at least we know their methods and can identify them at the early stages. Now who you report all this to in a fascist state featuring a "unitary executive," I have no idea. Maybe it won't matter much longer, if our Commander Guy's puppet masters decide to take the wraps off of Amerika v2.0.


wp

Edited for tpyos
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. GD has now become the riddle forum now?
:shrug:
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I'm thinking of a number between one and sixty-three....
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. 11
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. wow, you're good!!
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. The very fact that the answer isn't immediately obvious to you..
Makes my point more clearly than any amount of rhetoric I might spout.

We have lived with an incredibly unjust and destructive policy for so long that most of us take it for granted as much as the air we breathe.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. n/m
Edited on Wed Sep-05-07 11:59 AM by LSK

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
8. My guess is....
the continued support for the "war on drugs"? I don't agree with you re the Dems lost in 2000 due to this but I have read enough of your posts to know this is a BIG issue with you.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I honestly don't understand
Why America having the highest incarceration rate in the world..

Is not a HUGH issue with Democrats.

After all, it is mostly minorities that get caught up in the drug war, while they use drugs at a slightly lower rate than do caucasians.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. maybe because the vast majority of voters feel like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txp8B4ek_kk

and the media reports it that way.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. Do they *really* feel that way though?
Just about everyone has either an acquaintance or a family member that has run afoul of the law.

Polls can easily be manipulated to make the results anything the pollster wants them to be.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. I support the de-criminalization of marijuana possession
(am not a user of the product) which would, in turn, imo, reduce the number of incarcerations which would, in turn, reduce the need for more and bigger prisons.

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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. I'll take a shot... literally. Gun-control.
More specifically, things like a resurrection of the 1993 Assault Weapons Ban or the proposed 2007 Assault Weapons Ban (HR1022), which is an order of magnitude stricter than the '93 ban.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Gun control gets discussed here so much it has its own forum..
How many people have been disenfranchised due to gun control?
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Ask Al Gore
And the topic usually gets shunted off to the Gungeon, where the debate is vigorous, but does not usually involve the general DU population.


But it was just my guess.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
51. Few have been disenfrancised, but it's probably cost Democrats millions of votes
A disenfranchised voter is only one lost vote. A voter who votes for the other major party is TWO lost votes.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
60. Most Americans favor MORE gun control.
"A 2006 Gallup poll revealed that 56 percent of people wanted laws governing the sale of firearms to be made more stringent. In recent years, most polling on gun control produces similar results: Majorities of Americans favor at least some regulation of firearms, particularly handguns, as the data below demonstrate. The recently expired assault weapons ban was overwhelmingly supported by the public."
http://mediamatters.org/progmaj/report
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Support for a ban on "assault weapons," whatever they are, has dropped in recent years
Meanwhile, the number of Democratic Senators on the Hill who are opposed to any such ban has risen from 5 to 8 in the last election cycle alone.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
15. prisoners
But did you know that many states have laws to restore prison voting rights? It's such "common knowledge" that ex-cons can't vote that most don't even bother to check to find out if they can.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Florida does not...
How many votes did Gore "lose" by in Florida?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. It had a complex one
Required hearings and background checks which I'm sure the state wasn't going to pay for, but it was there. The new law will help some, but for others it is still too complicated and unfair. Still, at least 40 states have some system to restore voting rights and I don't think most felons know that.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/04/06/State/Felons_rights_restore.shtml
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
16. Fuck Nader.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. There is truth to that - the election could not have been stolen if more had voted.
However, non-voters were completely abandoned for the nebulous and never-manifesting "fence-sitting undecided moderates." That strategy lost us three consecutive major elections and would have lost us 2006 if Dean hadn't proven effective in his methods.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. and the US is pretty much alone in this
I'll post separately about a Supreme Court of Canada case you might find interesting and instructive on this issue.

What the US still practises in this regard is called civil death, something that has been rejected in societies comparable to the US but that lives on there. People in the US talk about "restoration of civil rights" after completion of a sentence; the idea of taking away civil rights (which are quite different from human rights, it must be remembered) is just foreign to the rest of us.

Bare bones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_death
Civil death is a term that refers to the loss of all or almost all civil rights by a person due to a conviction for a felony (a crime punishable with more than a year's imprisonment) or due to an act by the government of a country that results in the loss of civil rights. It is usually inflicted on persons convicted of crimes against the state.

A prominent example of civil death is the "illegal enemy combatant" designation used by the United States government, to avoid due process as described by the United States Constitution and protections for prisoners of war described in the Geneva Conventions. A second example of civil death on a wide scale is the use of purges by the former Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin.

Historically outlawry, that is, declaring a person as an outlaw, was a common form of civil death.


http://www.hrw.org/reports98/vote/usvot98o.htm

The expansion of suffrage to all sectors of the population is one of the United States’ most important political triumphs. Once the privilege of wealthy white men, the vote is now a basic right held as well by the poor and working classes, racial minorities, women and young adults. Today, all mentally competent adults have the right to vote with only one exception: convicted criminal offenders. In forty-six states and the District of Columbia, criminal disenfranchisement laws deny the vote to all convicted adults in prison. Thirty-two states also disenfranchise felons on parole; twenty-nine disenfranchise those on probation. And, due to laws that may be unique in the world, in fourteen states even ex-offenders who have fully served their sentences remain barred for life from voting.

While felony disenfranchisement laws should be of concern in any democracy, the scale of their impact in the United States is unparalleled: an estimated 3.9 million U.S. citizens are disenfranchised, including over one million who have fully completed their sentences. That so many people are disenfranchised is an unintended consequence of harsh criminal justice policies that have increased the number of people sent to prison and the length of their sentences, despite a falling crime rate.

The racial impact of disenfranchisement laws is particularly egregious. Thirteen percent of African American men—1.4 million—are disenfranchised, representing just over one-third (36 percent) of the total disenfranchised population. In two states, our data show that almost one in three black men is disenfranchised. In eight states, one in four black men is disenfranchised. If current trends continue, the rate of disenfranchisement for black men could reach 40 percent in the states that disenfranchise ex-offenders.

Disenfranchisement laws in the U.S. are a vestige of medieval times when offenders were banished from the community and suffered ‘‘civil death.” Brought from Europe to the colonies, they gained new political salience at the end of the nineteenth century when disgruntled whites in a number of Southern states adopted them and other ostensibly race-neutral voting restrictions in an effort to exclude blacks from the vote.

In the late twentieth century, the laws have no discernible legitimate purpose. Deprivation of the right to vote is not an inherent or necessary aspect of criminal punishment nor does it promote the reintegration of offenders into lawful society. Indeed, defenders of these laws have been hard pressed to justify them: they most frequently cite the patently inadequate goal of protecting against voter fraud or the anachronistic and politically untenable objective of preserving the “purity of the ballot box” by excluding voters lacking in virtue.

No other democratic country in the world denies as many people—in absolute or proportional terms—the right to vote because of felony convictions. The extent of disenfranchisement in the United States is as troubling as the fact that the right to vote can be lost for relatively minor offenses. An offender who receives probation for a single sale of drugs can face a lifetime of disenfranchisement. Restrictions on the franchise in the United States seem to be singularly unreasonable as well as racially discriminatory, in violation of democratic principles and international human rights law. ...


From the Napoleonic Code, 1803:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/code/book1/c_title01.html
Of the Privation of Civil Rights in consequence of Judicial Proceedings.

22. Sentences to punishments, the effect of which is to deprive the party condemned of all participation in the civil rights hereafter mentioned, shall imply civil death.

23. Sentence to natural death shall imply civil death.

24. Other perpetual afflictive punishments shall not imply civil death, except so far as the law shall have attached that consequence to them.

25. By civil death, the party condemned loses his property in all the goods which he possessed; and the succession is open for the benefit of his heirs, on whom his estate devolves, in the same manner as if he were naturally dead and intestate.
He can no longer inherit any estate, nor transmit, by this title, the property which he has acquired in consequence.
He is no longer capable of disposing of his property, in whole or in part, either by way of gift during his life, or by will, nor of receiving by similar title, except for the purpose of subsistence. He cannot be nominated guardian, nor concur in any act relative to guardianship.
He cannot be a witness in any solemn public act, nor be admitted to give evidence in any court. He cannot engage in any suit, whether as defendant or plaintiff, except in the name and by the intervention of a special curator appointed for him by the court in which the action is brought.
He is incapable of contracting a marriage attended by any civil consequences.
If he have previously contracted marriage, it is dissolved, as respects all civil effects. His wife and his heirs shall respectively exercise those rights and demands to which his natural death would have given rise.


Civil death was abolished in France in 1854.


There is a ton of valuable reading on this subject on the net. Just one:

http://www.demos.org/pub109.cfm
Punishing at the Polls
The Case Against Disenfranchising Citizens With Felony Convictions
November 24, 2003
By Alec Ewald
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. good one!
:thumbsup:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. well a coupla other posters did say it first!

But I knew the answer as soon as I saw the question. Of course, you will remember that we've talked about the civil death thang in Guns.

(And of course I find the notion that firearms ownership is a "civil right" nonsensical, but the right to vote very definitely is -- a right inherent in membership in a particular society, rather than membership in the human race.)

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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Only one poster so far has come up with the correct answer though..
It is not disenfranchisement that I'm referring to, it is rather the reason why so many minorities are disenfranchised.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. yes, the war on drugs is an awful thing

and it is the reason why many people, particularly members of minority groups, are convicted and imprisoned, and thus disenfranchised.

Not everyone with a criminal conviction or in prison is convicted or imprisoned because of drugs, or the war thereon. Anyone who isn't is still disenfranchised, as a general rule, in the US.

The disenfranchisement of people with criminal convictions is a problem that might be more directly addressed than the war on drugs.

Who knows? If people convicted of drug-related offences weren't disenfranchised, the war on drugs might not look so worthwhile ...

I mainly jest. I don't actually impute the capacity for such well-laid plans to the bad guys.

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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Your own posts below show that the "bad guys" were indeed
Attempting to effect voting demographics.

And they have succeeded very well at their task.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. that's true
In the case of the war on drugs, I just wonder whether it might not rather be one of those lucky side-effects.

It's difficult to come up with a strategy for dealing with drugs and the war thereon that can be widely understood and widely agreed to. The case for the absence of justification, in a liberal democracy, for disenfranchising anyone might be more easily made. Not that lots of people would immediately agree that bad people don't deserve anything bad that might happen to them; I know how popular that sentiment is. But the case against this particular state-imposed bad thing is very strong, and very hard to refute.

I don't want to detract from the point of your thread, but since it is disenfranchisement that loses the Democratic Party votes directly, and not the war on drugs, I think seeking more public attention to that specific issue is itself very worthwhile.

And then, like I said, who knows -- if this intended effect of the war on drugs, or lucky unintended effect, whichever it be, were eliminated, the prosecution of the war itself could become of less interest to its generals.

In any event, there are individuals who are being denied the exercise of a civil right as a result of criminal disenfranchisement who are deserving of protection. Again, not the point of your post, I understand, but a matter that should be of concern to Democrats both because of the votes lost and because of what one hopes is the natural concern of Democrats for people's ability to exercise rights.

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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Even a very casual perusal of the history of the drug war..
Makes it quite clear that it was largely enacted for bigoted and racist purposes.

http://www.drugpolicy.org/communities/race/historyofpro/


Public attitudes about drug use began to change as perceptions about drug users shifted. Opposition to opium smoking grew as it was increasingly linked to Chinese immigrants in the western United States. Strong anti-Chinese sentiment, exacerbated by a growing fear of competitive cheap Chinese labor, led to the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, which forbade further immigration. Reports that the upper classes were taking up opium smoking in New York and other cities led to heightened alarm. Fears that respectable white women were being seduced into a life of prostitution and debauchery in opium dens were inflamed by vivid reports. In 1902, the Committee on the Acquirement of the Drug Habit of the American Pharmaceutical Association declared: "If the 'Chinaman' cannot get along without his 'dope,' we can get along without him." In 1909 the United States' international war on drugs began when California prohibited the importation of smokeable opium.

In 1910 Dr. Hamilton Wright, considered by some the father of U.S. anti-narcotics laws, reported that U.S. contractors were giving cocaine to their Black employees to get more work out of them.(3) A few years later, stories began to proliferate about "cocaine-crazed Negroes" in the South who had run amuck. The New York Times published a story that alleged "most of the attacks upon white women of the South are the direct result of the 'cocaine-crazed' Negro brain." The story asserted that "Negro cocaine fiends are now a known Southern menace." Some southern police departments switched to .38 caliber revolvers, because they thought cocaine made Blacks impervious to .32 caliber bullets.(4) These stories were in part motivated by a desire to persuade Southern members of Congress to support the proposed Harrison Narcotics Act, which would greatly expand the federal government's power to control drugs.(5) This lie was also necessary since, even though drugs were widely used in America, very little crime was associated with the users.(6)

When marijuana was popularized in the 20s and 30s in the American jazz scene, Blacks and Whites sat down as equals and smoked together. The racist anti-marijuana propaganda of the time used this crumbling of racial barriers as an example of the degradation caused by marijuana. Harry Anslinger, head of the newly formed federal narcotics division, warned middle-class leaders about Blacks and Whites dancing together in "teahouses," using blatant prejudice to sell prohibition.(7) In 1931 New Orleans officials attributed many of the region's crimes to marijuana, which they believed was also a dangerous sexual stimulant. During the Great Depression, the 1937 Marijuana Tax Act came into law, again using racism as its chief selling point. The same Mexicans who were vying with out of work Americans for the few agricultural jobs available, it was said, engaged in marijuana induced violence against Americans.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. okay

I'll put it briefly.

(a) Should the prohibition on people with criminal convictions voting not be eliminated?

(b) If so, can that not be done even without talking about the war on drugs, and should it not be done?

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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Why separate the topics?
They are part and parcel of the same problem.

Injustice is injustice and the drug war is unjust to the nth degree.

A murderer once he has served his time can get federal education benefits.

Someone with a misdemeanor for having a joint is prohibited from ever getting federal education benefits.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. well, why separate any topics?
"The war on drugs" and "disenfranchisement of people with criminal convictions" really are not identical sets.

First, people are disenfranchised for convictions having nothing to do with the war on drugs, and people were being convicted and disenfranchised for a long time before the war on drugs was declared. I despise people who abuse children, but I don't believe they should suffer civil death as a result. And I don't think they should have to wait for a truce to be called in the war on drugs before they can exercise the right to vote.

Second, disenfranchisement and drug prohibition are completely separate issues in some of their aspects, and the arguments that anyone would make in public both pro and con each are completely different. For instance, the argument that disenfranchisement is unacceptable in a liberal democracy can be made entirely independently of whether the society in question is engaged in a war on drugs, and of whether the society wishes to keep waging that war.

Nobody is going to come out and say "we like disenfranchising felons because we don't want people of colour to vote". They're going to offer all the reasons the Canadian government offered in the Sauvé case, and they're all crap arguments. I mean, your courts have so far mainly accepted them, but they're still crap arguments, and their crappiness needs to be explained to the public.

So if what you actually want is an end to disenfranchisement, it would probably be better to leave the war on drugs completely out of the discourse. Disenfranchisement is a civl rights issue all on its own, and it can be argued against nd eventually defeated as such.

If what you actually want is an end to the war on drugs, you should argue that case on its own merits. If you think that widespread disenfranchisement of members of minority groups is a good thing to raise in arguing against the war on drugs, fine.

My own opinion would be that mixing up the argument against disenfranchisement, itself, with the argument against the war on drugs isn't going to help people who have been disenfranchised, in the public mind. So I'd tend to see arguing against disenfranchisement by treating it as solely an outgrowth of the war on drugs as exploiting people who have been disenfranchised in the service of an agenda that is not necessarily their own, and harming their interests in the service of other interests.

One thing to keep in mind, though. Argue against the war on drugs by pointing out that it leads to widespread disenfranchisement of members of minority groups, and the easy answer is: don't disenfranchise people for criminal convictions.

So hmm, maybe it's not such a bad idea after all ...



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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. I find most people, even on DU
Are absolutely desperate to avoid discussing the fact that America has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Note that in this entire thread not one person has responded to that statement.

I know what the reason is.

Do you?
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. But you had the research
And there was a lot of it, and it was all relevent.

So it was good.


And I don't want to change the topic of the thread, so I won't say anything else. :-)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. compare and contrast
Edited on Wed Sep-05-07 01:03 PM by iverglas
-- how the issue has been dealt with in Canada. I'm not aware of it ever being the practice here (post 1867 constitution, anyhow) to deny the right to vote on the basis of criminal conviction to someone who was not an inmate at the time of the election.


http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=484543
Convictions and Doubts: Retribution, Representation, and the Debate Over Felon Disenfranchisement

The tenor of the debate over felon disenfranchisement has taken a remarkable turn. After a generation of essentially unsuccessful litigation, two federal courts of appeals have recently reinstated challenges to such laws. A number of states have recently made it easier for ex-offenders to regain their voting rights. Recent public opinion surveys find overwhelming support for restoring the franchise to offenders who have otherwise completed their sentences. On the international front, the supreme courts of Canada and South Africa issued decisions requiring their governments to permit even incarcerated citizens to vote.

Download here:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=484543#PaperDownload
(footnote 8)... Ewald provides a relatively up-to-date list of other countries that permit voting by inmates, including Israel, which sets up polling places in prisons and detention centers and Germany, where the government is affirmatively obligated to facilitate voting by eligible prisoners.


When considering how human rights issues are dealt with outside the US, the supreme courts of Canada and South Africa are the ones to keep an eye on. (Same-sex marriage ...)



http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2002/2002scc68/2002scc68.html
Supreme Court of Canada

Sauvé v. Canada (Chief Electoral Officer), <2002> 3 S.C.R. 519, 2002 SCC 68

Richard Sauvé Appellant
v.
The Attorney General of Canada, the Chief Electoral Officer
of Canada and the Solicitor General of Canada
Respondents

Constitutional law — Charter of Rights — Right to vote — Prisoners — Canada Elections Act provision disqualifying persons imprisoned in correctional institution serving sentences of two years or more from voting in federal elections — Crown conceding that provision infringes right to vote — Whether infringement justified — Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, ss. 1, 3 — Canada Elections Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. E‑2, s. 51(e). ...


On a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court of Canada struck down the law prohibiting inmates of federal penitentiaries, i.e. those serving more than two years, from voting in federal elections. This is from the summary of the majority reasons; I'll emphasize what might be the interesting bits:

Held (L’Heureux‑Dubé, Gonthier, Major and Bastarache JJ. dissenting): The appeal should be allowed.

Per McLachlin C.J. and Iacobucci, Binnie, Arbour and LeBel JJ.: To justify the infringement of a Charter right under s. 1, the government must show that the infringement achieves a constitutionally valid purpose or objective, and that the chosen means are reasonable and demonstrably justified. The government’s argument that denying the right to vote to penitentiary inmates requires deference because it is a matter of social and political philosophy is rejected. While deference may be appropriate on a decision involving competing social and political policies, it is not appropriate on a decision to limit fundamental rights. The right to vote is fundamental to our democracy and the rule of law and cannot be lightly set aside. Limits on it require not deference, but careful examination. The framers of the Charter signaled the special importance of this right not only by its broad, untrammeled language, but by exempting it from legislative override under s. 33's notwithstanding clause. The argument that the philosophically‑based or symbolic nature of the objectives in itself commands deference is also rejected. Parliament cannot use lofty objectives to shield legislation from Charter scrutiny. Here, s. 51(e) is not justified under s. 1 of the Charter.

The government has failed to identify particular problems that require denying the right to vote, making it hard to conclude that the denial is directed at a pressing and substantial purpose. In the absence of a specific problem, the government asserts two broad objectives for s. 51(e): (1) to enhance civic responsibility and respect for the rule of law; and (2) to provide additional punishment or “enhance the general purposes of the criminal sanction”. Vague and symbolic objectives, however, make the justification analysis difficult. The first objective could be asserted of virtually every criminal law and many non‑criminal measures. Concerning the second objective, nothing in the record discloses precisely why Parliament felt that more punishment was required for this particular class of prisoner, or what additional objectives Parliament hoped to achieve by this punishment that were not accomplished by the sentences already imposed. Nevertheless, rather than dismissing the government’s objectives outright, prudence suggests that we proceed to the proportionality inquiry.

Section 51(e) does not meet the proportionality test. In particular, the government fails to establish a rational connection between s. 51(e)’s denial of the right to vote and its stated objectives. With respect to the first objective of promoting civic responsibility and respect for the law, denying penitentiary inmates the right to vote is more likely to send messages that undermine respect for the law and democracy than messages that enhance those values. The legitimacy of the law and the obligation to obey the law flow directly from the right of every citizen to vote. To deny prisoners the right to vote is to lose an important means of teaching them democratic values and social responsibility. The government’s novel political theory that would permit elected representatives to disenfranchise a segment of the population finds no place in a democracy built upon principles of inclusiveness, equality, and citizen participation. That not all self‑proclaimed democracies adhere to this conclusion says little about what the Canadian vision of democracy embodied in the Charter permits. Moreover, the argument that only those who respect the law should participate in the political process cannot be accepted. Denial of the right to vote on the basis of attributed moral unworthiness is inconsistent with the respect for the dignity of every person that lies at the heart of Canadian democracy and the Charter. It also runs counter to the plain words of s. 3 of the Charter, its exclusion from the s. 33 override, and the idea that laws command obedience because they are made by those whose conduct they govern.

With respect to the second objective of imposing appropriate punishment, the government offered no credible theory about why it should be allowed to deny a fundamental democratic right as a form of state punishment. Denying the right to vote does not comply with the requirements for legitimate punishment — namely, that punishment must not be arbitrary and must serve a valid criminal law purpose. Absence of arbitrariness requires that punishment be tailored to the acts and circumstances of the individual offender. Section 51(e) qua punishment bears little relation to the offender’s particular crime. As to a legitimate penal purpose, neither the record nor common sense supports the claim that disenfranchisement deters crime or rehabilitates criminals. By imposing a blanket punishment on all penitentiary inmates regardless of the particular crimes they committed, the harm they caused, or the normative character of their conduct, s. 51(e) does not meet the requirements of denunciatory, retributive punishment, and is not rationally connected to the government’s stated goal.

The impugned provision does not minimally impair the right to vote. Section 51(e) is too broad, catching many people who, on the government’s own theory, should not be caught. Section 51(e) cannot be saved by the mere fact that it is less restrictive than a blanket exclusion of all inmates from the franchise.

Lastly, the negative effects of denying citizens the right to vote would greatly outweigh the tenuous benefits that might ensue. Denying prisoners the right to vote imposes negative costs on prisoners and on the penal system. It removes a route to social development and undermines correctional law and policy directed towards rehabilitation and integration. In light of the disproportionate number of Aboriginal people in penitentiaries, the negative effects of s. 51(e) upon prisoners have a disproportionate impact on Canada’s already disadvantaged Aboriginal population.

Since s. 51(e) unjustifiably infringes s. 3 of the Charter, it is unnecessary to consider the alternative argument that it infringes the equality guarantee of s. 15(1) of the Charter.


Canada's constitution does include an express guarantee of the right to vote, of course, but the US constitution, e.g. in Amendment 14, does acknowledge the "right to vote".


incoherently rewritten sentence rewritten
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Excellent post,
Thank you..
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. The dems won the 2000 popular vote.
:shrug:
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. But in Florida...
It was close enough to be stolen, eh?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Yeah.
It was close enough that your OP really doesn't stand up.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning..
It seems to me that if there had been as few as ten thousand more Democratic voters in Florida Al Gore would probably be president today.

Do you disagree with that?

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/11/floridavote.html

Felon disenfranchisement laws may have hurt Gore in two ways. With the result of the presidential election coming down to a handful of votes in Florida, the disenfranchisement of close to three quarters of a million felons and ex-felons in the state may well have made the difference between a Gore presidency and a Bush one. Considering that the majority of felons are poor, black and Latino -- that is, likely Democratic voters -- had fewer than two percent of the disenfranchised in Florida voted, Gore would have probably been elected president.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 50...
Who wants to guess what it is?
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Your IQ?
If you had read the thread before posting...

You would have seen that particular pathetic joke has already been played.

That you cannot immediately see what I'm talking about is far better evidence that I'm correct than anything I could possibly say.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #41
55. Nice. You just insulted my intelligence.
I won't reply in kind, even though it would be easy.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. You set yourself up for it..
By making a really silly comment, indeed one that had already been made.

Insult my intelligence all you wish, I welcome it.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. No need. Your posts speak for themselves.
That was not a compliment, in case you were wondering.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Wow, that was a cogent argument.. n/t
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
38. It's been extensively discussed on the Election Reform forum:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. a straight question

I've searched that forum for disenfranchisement and felon, and not found anything specifically about the practise of disenfranchising citizens based on criminal convictions.

I'd love to contribute to such a discussion -- I'm a foreigner, but that's exactly why I'm useful to the discussion.

Have there been threads on the topic, or would they be welcome?

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. the problem was-there were no convictions as the voting section of the DoJ was
stacked with political operatives with a different agenda and many career minority officials were forced out. I will find you an article on this but now I have to pick up the kids.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. sorry - confusion?

The problem the OP is hinting at is the disenfranchisement of citizens who have criminal convictions, most of which are a result of the "war on drugs", and most of whom are members of minority groups. The argument is that if those people had been able to vote, it likely wouldn't have mattered if there had been other fraud. "Felons" can't vote, in other words, and the likelihood that a "felon" is a member of a minority group that traditionally votes Democratic is very high.

That's what I was after -- whether the Election Reform forum has had any discussions about the question of why people with criminal convictions are prevented from voting in most of the US, and what might be done about the problem.

Thanks!

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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. BTW, I just wanted to point out
That I'm about as far as one can get from being a "minority". Blue eyed, blond haired, late middle aged male.

But I'm still appalled by the injustice.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
48. Maybe they don't care.

Maybe they don't really want those people voting, maybe it suits them. The vast majority of the disenfranchised are poor or working class, do those folks fit in with the middle class/suburbanite agenda of the Democratic Party? For that matter, why has the party not vigorously pursued that 50% of the electorate who don't vote, many of whom may understand all too well that their vote serves them not at all?

Could it be that the Democratic Party is happy enough to not serve the majority, that it serves the interests of the powers that be that they only pretend to do so, that the illusion be maintained?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
50. 14 - 17 year-olds deserve the vote too!
:argh:
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Should they also get all the responsibilites and priveleges.
Edited on Wed Sep-05-07 02:58 PM by The Vinyl Ripper
Of adulthood?

If so, then I agree.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Some states have set the age of consent for sex at 14, even allow 14-YOs to marry
Edited on Wed Sep-05-07 03:02 PM by slackmaster
If they can fuck, they can vote!
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Can they sign a contract?
Buy alcohol?

Buy cigarettes?

Enlist?

If not then they do not have all the privileges of adulthood.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. No, but they damn well should be able to
And they should be subject to the draft.

If not then they do not have all the privileges of adulthood.

By that reasoning a 24-year-old isn't an adult because he or she can't run for Congress or the Presidency.

;-)
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. You are right..
A 24 year old isn't really an adult.

I detest double standards and America is just full to overflowing with them.

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