A corporation is not a police force

[mudesi]

If a corporation wants to search my bag, it better have my full consent. If it doesn't, TOUGH. I don't care what policies it has, I don't care what it may suspect of me, I don't care if it loses money every year because of other people. It is not the corporation's job to capture, detain, and prosecute shoplifters. The police can do that with a sting operation if they want to, but the corporation has no right to, and if they do, then I have to wonder just how close to fascism America has progressed.

Editing here to repeat something that many of you may not get: It is about consent. They have a right to ask for credit card numbers or receipts, they have a right to inform me of security cameras, and I have a right to refuse to show a receipt, or to pay in cash, or to not shop there because I'm uncomfortable with being on tape. Consent, consent, consent.

A corporation has no right to search my bag without my allowing it. If I have my own reasons for not wanting my bag searched, that is my prerogative.

[rudy23]

1. It's also perfectly legal for me to walk around with my shirt off. I'll think I'll go to Macy's

tomorrow for some shirtless shopping.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. That's neither here nor there.

A company's right to force you to leave the premises does not give them the right to kidnap you.

[rudy23]

2. Of course you don't care if they lose money because of other people---it's not your money. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Why would I give a shit if Circuit City loses money?

It ain't my problem.

[rudy23]

21. You should care when anyone has something stolen from them--stealing is illegal and unjust

Even stealing from the rich.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. So is stealing my time.

Fuck 'em.

[mudesi]

5. A corporation's money, versus my civil liberties?

I choose civil liberties, thank you very much.

[Maddy McCall]

9. Show me proof that checking receipts at the door works to prevent shoplifting.

Show me that it works better than having loss prevention personnel on the floor, where they should be.

The whole door-receipt check does NOT prevent loss, and corporations know this. They cast a wide net, and catch very few that way.

The most effective way to prevent loss is to have loss prevention personnel on the floor of the store.

[sailor65]

20. It isn't designed

primarily to prevent shoplifting, which is a singular crime. It targets a different type of loss.

The advent of widespread RFID systems has reduced the need for loss prevention on the sales floor, and channeled more of the loss to the next weak point, the cash register.

In big-ticket small item stores like Best Buy and Circuit City, much of the loss occurs not because of the kid slipping a CD under his shirt, it's because the cashier still has the ability to "Short-scan" an item, which essentially means activate the laser and deactivate it, behaviors which can fool the overhead cameras. Unfortunately, most RFID deactivation plates will clear the loss tag whether or not the item has been scanned, since item identification is not typically included with RFID loss prevention tags. So a complicit cashier can get you out the door with that XBox 360 in your bag but not on your receipt. The guy at the door asking to see your receipt is better suited to catching the cashier (As well as the complicit consumer I suppose.) than you. this is why the bags have become more translucent, and you will almost always see the guy at the door staring through the side of your bag before he considers whether to ask you.

The industry has often considered tying item ID into the loss prevention tag so that it may integrate into the sales transaction, but the costs associated with applying the tags on a per-part basis then skyrocket, as well as the logistical costs of managing the system.

You folks are absolutely correct in stating that you have the right to refuse and head out the door. But the 17 year old kid at the door asking is not your enemy, and he's probably not watching for you anyway.

[Johonny]

23. I agree with this

By searching everyone they make their own staff lethargic and uninterested. A majority of the time the check person never bothers to look into the bag, he's simply going through the motion. Repetitive procedures where the default value is nominal result in inattentive personnel.

[Lars39]

12. It's not our "job" to care, no matter how much the companies try

to foist an employee's job, ie keeping down shrinkage, on us as the customer.

[Joe Fields]

15. Fuck them!!! If they can't manage money, merchandise and property

well enough to make a profit, I sure could not care less. If it is a company's policy to search everyone's bag who walks out of that store, and posts signs stating so, then there are no complaints. But arbitrary searching of people's paid private property by anyone other than law enforcement,(which should have probable cause) is unconscionable, and something I personally won't tolerate. A company that employs such intimidation tactics is a company I won't shop at.

[Maddy McCall]

4. If they do not have evidence of shoplifting, they cannot detain you.

Period.

They cannot search your bags without your consent. Period.

If they physically detain you without evidence that you shoplifted, then YOU should call the police. I would show my receipt and my bags to the police, but I will not be groped by some corporation's door worker, because that person has no RIGHT to search my bags or my person, IF that person has no evidence demonstrating that I shoplifted.

Anyone who argues differently isn't knowledgeable of the law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. I could show you some choice examples

but I am sure you've seen them

What is worst is I am the one (and you by extension) accused of NOT knowing our rights

[Maddy McCall]

10. In the thread I started awhile ago...

read the link that I linked to. (Did that make sense?)

There is no shame in exercising your civil liberties. There is plenty of shame in condemning those who do exercise their civil liberties.

:)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

14. I know ... I know...following you to another thread

as if I am enamored of you in some way :-) but can we at least agree that the issue here is not a Fourth Amendment issue rather an issue of being detained?

sP

[seemslikeadream]

7. You are being WATCHED the whole time you are in the store

I just wouldn't buy anything from them again

[angstlessk]

11. But the corporation has the right to pick your pocket at the register

by coding the computers to charge higher prices than the ticketed price..cause few people think the 'good corporaition' would ever cheat them...our recourse? STAND IN LINE IN THE CUSTOMER SERVICE DEPARTMENT AND PROVE WE WERE CHARGED MORE THAN THE LISTED PRICE..AND WE GET OUR $2.00 REFUND..(BTW...AS WE SPEND OUR TIME STANDING IN THAT LINE WE MAKE LESS THAN THE MINIMUM WAGE WORKERS WHO SERVICE THE CORPORATION)

[Mythsaje]

13. All too often

we allow ourselves to get hemmed in by policies and procedures and never stop to ask, "what the hell is THIS for?"

It's like we're in a giant pinball game which bounces us from one "must do" to another. Laws, rules, regulations, policies, etc... And people are okay with it most of the time, even HERE, because, well, "you can always opt out."

Well, I'd LIKE to go to a mom and pop grocery store, but, hey! I don't know where to find one.

Humans love rules. As long as it doesn't discomfit them, they're fine with any old rule someone wants to lay down.

About half of DU are lefty libertarian types--anti authoritarian to a degree that stuff like this rubs us the wrong way. About half of DU seems to be lefty authoritarian types, who don't mind being hemmed in by rules as long as they LIKE the rules being established.

Flame wars? Par for the course.

[niyad]

24. not all of us are rule-lovers. you should see the reaction I get when I refuse to give even my zip

code when I am paying cash for an item. I have been questioned about this by people standing in line behind me, and I point out that, as a matter of principal, I give out NO personal information to anyone, and I refuse to be acclimated into handing over whatever info is wanted: "Show us your papers"-- sorry, they are going to have to drag me kicking and screaming into that state (which, given this admin, is next week)

[blues90]

16. I agree , they have no right to search you , they are not the law

The horrid home depot I went to a few times has a guy that takes your receipt and just runs it between his fingers to crease it but never looks inside the bag .

So he really has no idea if I stole anything .

Way back in the sixties I was in a sears store with a friend and he tucked two 8 tracks under his jacket , I had no idea he did this . While we were walking out a man can from behind and stopped us , told me I was not suspect so I waited outside this closed office door .

They had been watching on camera the entire time and let him off with a warning not to come back ever .

I don't feel theft is acceptable but I don't feel being searched is either . Not by some hired security guard .

This is the problem I have with the airports , not that I fly but I will be damned if I would go through all the security seachers of my person . This to me is just one of many ways to make people fall in line without thought like sheep especially when it comes to tossing out liquids or removing shoes .

There is all the focus on air travel as if this is how a terrorist will strike again , that is none sense , they don't check the borders or shipping containers but that takes effort and money the airlines you are trapped and it's easy to do .

However on your feeling secure , do you have the same rights of proof on the part of the airlines , do you get to see the pilot is not drunk or on drugs , do you know if the cargo was checked or the tires checked . No you have to place all trust in them , at will trust . The only thing the passengers focus on is anyone who has brown skin and looks like the profile of a terrorist , that they have been fed to believe in .

[ComerPerro]

17. they keep you under constant video watch, and have itemized lists of your every purchase

so believe me, your whole "they have no right to make sure I haven't stolen anything" is not only pathetic self-congratulatory bullshit, but is also kind of naive considering all the other violations you suffer whenever you go shopping. Get over yourself.

[dogday]

18. Thank you for shopping with us, now may I see if you are a thief?

nice store policy....

[Bitwit1234]

19. If you bag sets off the alarm

should be the only reason they could check.

[peace13]

22. Even purchased items can set off the alarm. n/t

[niyad]

26. hobby lobby, that lovely xian organization, posts a sign stating that they have the RIGHT to not

only search your bag, your purse, and anything else you may be carrying, but your car as well. this lovely little sign is posted by the restrooms in the back of the store, in a dark hallway.

as they are a VERY christian company, I do not shop there--went in with a friend one day who doesn't care who runs it, and happened to see this.

[ThePowerofWill]

27. I'll tell a related story from more than a few years back.

Back many moons ago, around 1996 or so i was still shopping at Walmart. I happened to receive a nice financial windfall. Went to do some shopping at Walmart, and bought around $1,800 worth of goods. Now at this time i worked making underground concrete pipe. Quite the nasty job. I feel i was targeted at the door for a search due to my less than stellar appearance.

I was asked to see my receipt, i refused and started to leave. I already felt very offended, yet at this point the manager runs out and grabs my arm to detain me. I snatched his wrist and forced him into a wristlock, and shoved him off. He then told me i needed to come back in and have my bags checked.

Now i am very distressed to say the least, so i was pretty loud in the following exchanges. I asked him "why the fuck do i need to come back in?" "Did i steal something?" "If you think i did i suggest you call the police to come search me, because if you touch me again i'm gonna whip your ass back to the stone age". I then informed him if he did indeed subject me to the indignity of a police search i would surely contact a lawyer to seek restitution for the wrong doing.

He let me go. However i could not keep the stuff i had just bought. I walked out one door, right back in the other and returned every item i purchased. I felt we both ot satisfaction. They got to check what was in my bags, against the receipt, and i got to keep my dignity.

I have never been to a Walmart since.

[niyad]

28. welcome to DU

glad that you returned everything, after that nasty experience. and glad you have not shopped the evil empire since then.