Some questions re: your experiences with pre-diabetes & diet. My doc is unhelpful

[Hekate]

Mods: this may be the wrong place, but most of my friends are in this forum, although usually in the middle of the night. Plus, I'm not asking for medical advice per se, I'm just very confused after standing in the book store last night. Move my post if you must....

Now to my dilemma:
Type 2 Diabetes runs in my mother's family, as does mid-life weight gain and a host of mood disorders. Never thought it would happen to me -- I looked at all those photos of my older cousins and said ha! I'm living right. That was 15 years ago.

My youngest brother now has diabetes and must monitor his blood several times a day.

Last fall, for the first time, my own blood-test showed a rise into the danger zone, and though I brought it down I am well aware that my troubles are not over.

Here's what I'm getting from my doctor: exercise, lose weight, avoid the "4 whites" (rice, flour, potatos, and sugar). Nothing more specific than that. He’s a terrific internist and actually saved my life once by realizing how sick I was with appendicitis (the surgeon didn’t think I “looked that sick” until he opened me up) -- but he’s not a nutritionist/dietitian. Dr. B may be worried about me, but this is a gap in his expertise.

After I healed from my shoulder surgery earlier this year I joined the YMCA and started vigorously exercising 3 days a week. If this was 10 years ago I would expect to see weight loss as well as increased strength and stamina. No such luck. Yes, I've been pretty good about avoiding the "4 whites".

Knowing that diet is the key to losing weight but also realizing I need to make it a permanent change because of being pre-diabetic, I decided I should do some research. I do have the original Weight Watchers information, the plan that used to be endorsed by the American Heart Association before it went commercial and gimmicky.

Looking for a menu-plan I went online a couple of months ago and then to Borders last night. In both cases there was not only too much information, but all of it was geared to those who are already diabetic. The final straw was reading that each daily menu plan needs to be tailored to the individual and based on blood readings throughout the day, which of course makes sense if you are past the pre-diabetic stage and have a glucometer, which is what I am trying to avoid at all costs.

My basic question is this: Out of the dozens and dozens of books on the shelf, which can you recommend that you found most helpful?

Thank you all for letting me vent. I guess you can tell this is beginning to really worry me. I'm going out for awhile now and will check back in later tonight.

Hekate

[flvegan]

1. Consider a vegan diet.

(flamesuit on)

Seriously, do some good research, and ask an actual nutritionist about it.

Here's a link, as I know DU far too well to not offer one

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/26/health/webmd/main1837927.shtml

[Hekate]

28. yay for links....I'll look it up. thanks.

[AllieB]

2. Consider a low-carb diet.

Your pancreas cannot distinguish between a piece of cake and a piece of bread. It's sugar and spikes your insulin. It worked for me and many other diabetics. My blood sugar is normal.

A vegan diet does not provide enough protein, and reliance on grains destabilizes blood sugar.

[flvegan]

7. Nice bullshit second paragraph, there.

Uneducated, lacking merit...but, whatever.

As a sports nutritionist and vegan, consider this a challenge to back that up.

[AllieB]

14. As an athlete and a diabetic, I know what works for me.

Everyone is different. I hope you supplement B-12 because you're not going to get it from plants.

I was a vegetarian for 10 years. I have been FAR healthier eating meat and vegetables than eating vegetarian. My health suffered (Crohn's disease, Diabetes, fibromyalgia, shall I go on?). Since eating a Paleo diet, I do not need insulin, my gut problems are gone, and I don't need a cane or a wheelchair. It must be nice to have no food allergies and to be able to sit in judgement over people who try to do what's right for them from a health perspective.

[flvegan]

17. As a bodybuilder, here's what you said:

"A vegan diet does not provide enough protein, and reliance on grains destabilizes blood sugar."

Let me know when you have something that backs that up, k?

B-12...I'm lucky, I know enough to eat foods fortified with B-12. Makes it kinda easy.

I suggested, you made a statement that you can't back up. Pity the strawman.

[AllieB]

65. So you're a nutritionist and you don't understand basic biochemistry?

I guess the mail-order university didn't have a course on blood sugar and diabetes?

As far as B-12 fortification, how can you even be sure that you're absorbing it?

I didn't make any strawman argument. I stated what works for ME. You, of course, may be COMPLETELY different. But of course, you're the nutritionist, so I should listen to you vs. the doctors at Joslin Diabetes in Boston with degrees from Harvard Medical School, right? :eyes:

[LeftyMom]

18. Have no food allergies?

:rofl:

Yeah, you so don't know who you're talking to. :eyes:

[AllieB]

63. Typical open-minded answer

:eyes:

Because you're a vegetarian, everyone should be one. Sounds like a fundamentalist Xtian.

Yup, I've got celiac and I'm diabetic. Thanks for the sympathy-it's really heartwarming. I guess you have more empathy for animals than people. And you're a liberal progressive?

[Hekate]

30. Yeah, I'm thinking everyone's different.Even the Dalai Lama knows not everyone can be a vegetarian

Mr. H is the Buddhist of the family, but he is also lactose intolerant and has had severe ulcerative colitis in the past. The colitis always lurks closely in the background. Be that as it may, he periodically gives vegetarianism a try, always with unfortunate results.

Somewhere in his readings Mr. H came across an interview with the Dalai Lama where he answered someone's question about whether there was an absolute requirement for Buddhists to be vegetarian, and if not, why not. The DL explained, among other things, that the dry high altitudes of Tibet don't readily provide the wherewithal to be completely vegetarian, and iirc he also mentioned that some people's guts don't do so well. I quote that back to Mr. H when it looks like he needs the reminder.

In all honesty I wouldn't know unless I tried whether a vegan diet would benefit me. In itself fiber doesn't bother me although I have a form of IBS -- but clearly I have to learn to count carbs regardless of which diet I use. I do know about the B12.

I'm so glad to hear that your health got better with a Paleo-diet (which I can only imagine includes nuts, berries, grubs, and the occasional small game :rofl: -- don't be mad, really, that's just a joke based on "Paleo") In all seriousness, I have a good idea what those illnesses consisted of, being a fibromyalgic myself.

Hekate

[AllieB]

64. Thanks for the rational, adult answer.

It's so funny to see how vegetarians can rationalize treating human beings like crap while getting defensive about their way of eating. The fundamentalism is just as bad as the religious whackjobs on right-wing forums.

I'm sorry to hear that your fibromyalgic. :-( How are your symptoms? Are you getting around OK? Fibromyalgia is what I was diagnosed with when I was 29 :wtf: but it was probably celiac and other food allergies causing it. Have you been tested for food allergies?

I've never tried insects but my husband has. He's a lot more adventurous than I am. :D

I eat whole foods-grass fed meat and free range chicken and eggs from a local farm, vegetables and fruits that I grow myself organically or buy from local farms. Nothing processed like seitan or fermented like tempeh or with added vitamins, as there is debate whether any of the nutrients are absorbable anyway. No flours or grains. The only sweetener I use (rarely) is stevia. I find that eating simply has alleviated any and all symptoms of fibromyalgia and diabetes. Our food sources are so contaminated now that I don't trust anything that's been processed.

[LeftyMom]

16. That is 110% wrong.

An unrestricted vegan diet is actually better at managing diabetes and even eliminating the need for medication in many cases, than the ADA diet, fatkins and all that other crap.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/26/health/webmd/main1837927.shtml

To the thread starter: I know more than one individual who has actually eliminated their diabetes by going vegan. I don't know anybody who's done anything but slow the suffering down on traditional diets for diabetics. Myself, I'd give it a shot. Try Dr McDougall's books, or Dr Barnard's Eat to Live, or Dr Barnard's book on diabetes and diet (I forget the name.)

[sandnsea]

21. vegetables, nuts, grain, beans

It IS the diabetic diet. Right?

I don't understand that post either, and I could never do a vegan diet.

[LeftyMom]

26. The fad in diabetes management these days is the low-carb/fatkins thing

A friend of mine has pcos, which usually involves insulin resistance/pre diabetes, and her doctor, who seems smart in other respects (got her to quit smoking and start working out, put her on the best med for her condition) has her on that stupid diet. Since she already ate a huge amount of meat, mostly that meant she had to give up potatoes. And rice, which is crazy because she's half Japanese.

[sandnsea]

29. Well that's crazy

My husband's doctor was very clear about complex carbs and reducing fat, and that low-carb diets wouldn't be enough. They weren't either because my husband tried it and I think it made it worse. I have a nurse practitioner, who I'm going to have to switch from because she recommended the low-carb, and she also recommended a diuretic when I told her I thought my thyroid dose wasn't right because I was swelling again. :crazy: I've known some pretty savvy nurses, but jeezo what a stupid thing to say. I thought I would get over it, but it's just one thing too many. And can't your friend have a whole grain rice and wild rice, she should be able to come up with some good dishes and still eat some rice.

[Hekate]

31. Taking notes here....McDougall, Barnard...okay....

[AllieB]

66. A traditional diabetic diet includes grains and is low fat.

For every study that you use to spout the vege-fundamentalist line, there's one that refutes it. The research on lowfat, vegetarian diets isnot as compelling as the research on traditional foods, natural saturated fats, nutrient dense foods. My diet is completely whole-nothing processed like tofu or seitan, and nothing fermented like tempeh. No flours, barely any dairy. It's meats and chicken from local farms and vegetables and fruits that I grow myself or from local farms. Nuts and nut butters that I make myself.

McDougall and all the other vegan diet doctors may help some, but their diets are way too restrictive in EFAs to help most people. It's so funny that you mention 'fatkins', which is basically the French diet, and as we know, those French are so fat and die so young.

[LeftyMom]

69. You REALLY have no idea what you're talking about.

1. You have no references for this "traditional foods" (please enroll yourself in an anthropology course immediately- this is nonsense) bunk. Please produce some, taking note to avoid references to Weston A. Price DDS, Sally Fallon, Mary Eing and other known crackpots. Oh, and Dr. Mercola doesn't count either.

2. Unless the veggies and fruits form a fairly large majority of what's on your plate, a diet like yours is going to be deficient in many micronutrients. Especially if one buys into the low carb nonsense and avoids all but the wateriest and emptiest veggies fruits for fear of carbohydrates.

3. Well-planned vegan diets get plenty of EFAs from flax, nuts and other plant sources, without the risks involved in getting them from animal foods such as mercury and bioaccumulated flame retardants and pesticides. Though the latest metastudies are saying that the benefits of EFAs are somewhere between overstated and undetectible anyhow. Which you would know if you knew much about nutrition.

4. The french don't eat anything like the Atkins diet, as they are famously fond of quality bread, and hardly averse to pasta, potatoes and starches generally (You know what's in all those thick sauces? White flour!) Their good health outcomes probably have a lot to do with their lower working hours and longer vacations- stress is a real killer- combined with their fondness for walking and other physical activity. Oh, and in case you missed Sicko, they get FABULOUS! medical care, it'd be crazy to assume that's not a huge factor in the relative health of the french, but we can't forget that you can't oversimplify, there are a lot of factors at play. I mean, they have high smoking rates too but that hardly means smoking is a good idea.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Ok diabetes runs in the family so there

but the book I got for my hubby to read was Diabetes for Dummies

I have found that to be a very good book regarding general issues and explanations...

Oh and here is one that both your doctor (he just might be ignorant about it... and yes docs are not nutritionists), and the American Diabetes Association has a cow over.

The standard abroad, why he told you to avoid the four whites, is to go for low glycyemic index diet

No, not all carbs are made the same, and believe it or not, a low glycemic response diet, such as wheat or dark bread, is better for you. Why the Ameircan Diabetes Association refuses to adopt that standard befuddles (not really) me on a regular basis.

In fact, Cherioos is very high in that respect.

So read on glycemic index and get a book with a table or I could see if I can find the PDF on it.

Yep, I AM a diabetic and have the joy of doing glucometer and trust me not fun

Also diabetes acts differently from person to person, my dad his is not as agressive, mine on the other hand...

don't ask

[Hekate]

41. Thanks Nadine. I'll look up the glycemic index, & would appreciate the pdf if you have it

Coincidentally, I was actually looking for Diabetes for Dummies but couldn't find it. My sister got if for her FIL and he found it very helpful, so I wanted to have a look at it. I'll look in another book store.

I found out years ago that MDs are given very little education in nutrition, so Dr. B's lack of specific knowledge is not a huge shock to me, just kind of frustrating. I have to figure out the next step on my own, and asking for help here is helping me do that.

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Let me look, I shoud have moved it into the new toy

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. You got mail

and I can send it over email if this does not format correctly

[Cha]

39. I'm a Vegan for 20 years and I

get plenty of protein. A Vegan diet may not be for everyone but for those it works for..it works exceedingly well.

It works for these folks, too.. http://www.navs-online.org/ I know a lot of these people and no one is ever worried they don't get enough protein.

[pitohui]

3. wow that is unhelpful of your doctor

are you sure he didn't give you a number of grams of carbs to shoot for, such as 70 grams a day or fewer?

that is what i have to shoot for w. hubby

just avoiding the four whites is not too useful because sugar, corn syrup, etc. are in everything -- you can avoid added sugar, never bring rice, potatoes, or bread into your home -- and still have pre-diabetes as happened to him -- there are too many "hidden" sources of carbs such as corn, pasta, FRUIT, FRUIT JUICE, etc. -- and please be aware that "brown" rice and bread are still carbs and just as harmful -- in my husband's case brown rice for example causes more harm and spikes his readings even more than white rice

you actually have to get a chart and learn to count carbs, just as if you kept slim when you were younger, you spent some time learning about calories, there's a learning curve but eventually it is second nature

if there is only one thing you do, it is this: never, ever again drink fruit juice -- that in itself will remove a huge source of glucose spiking (i'm assuming you already know you can't drink soda)

but to be honest i don't see how you will be able to treat this without getting the meter to see how your body reacts to carbs, some w. pre-diabetes/metabolic syndrome can eat fruit, however, my husband can eat only 1/2 piece of fruit a day without problems -- and he never eats fruit alone, there is always a bit of cheese with it to smooth out the impact on blood sugar levels

without the meter, rather than gamble, it seems like you would have to avoid fruit altogether if you don't have a way to tell what amount if any you can eat safely

on the bright side, hubby has lost 40 pounds and having a real job unlike our pretzeldent there is never time to work out, so it's all from the diet

don't really know of a book that sums it all up, it's frustrating that some docs are so far behind the 8 ball on this

the glucose meters are often given away, it's the strips that cost, on the principle of give a man a razor and sell him the blade...but it beats the alternative of being dead, as in our case we know too many diabetics who died way too young

the low carb diet is pretty much the only alternative when you have to reduce carbs, the vegan diet suggested above is not practical because if you are avoiding major sources of protein, dairy, AND carbs, well, there ain't much there there -- you are going to be surprised at how adding dairy to the diet actually helps you lose weight, i know my husband was -- if you can't digest milk, keep in mind that lactose intolerate folks can still benefit from cheese

[flvegan]

23. I'm glad that bullshit piles up

"the vegan diet suggested above is not practical because if you are avoiding major sources of protein, dairy, AND carbs, well, there ain't much there there -- you are going to be surprised at how adding dairy to the diet actually helps you lose weight, i know my husband was -- if you can't digest milk, keep in mind that lactose intolerate folks can still benefit from cheese"

Dunno shit about nutrition, post this crap. Over and over. Over and over.

Back it up.

[Hekate]

32. Easy there...

[Hekate]

27. No, nothing about learning to count carbs. I've learned to spot areas that aren't "his" & that's one

He's genuinely worried about my inability to get my weight under control, and while I try to figure out contributing factors (like family history and medications) I don't make excuses, if you know what I mean. In the meantime Dr. B hasn't handed me so much as a brochure on the subject. Clearly I need to find other sources of information.

In my very slender first 40 years I really didn't count calories. It was all portion control; portion control and a lack of extra money to spend on unhealthy food items. Both of those have changed, along with my metabolism. Then there were the meds for fibromyalgia: while my quality of life improved dramatically as far as chronic pain went, eventually I began to wonder if the fine print about being "associated with weight gain" might be true. Turns out tricyclic antidepressants are notorious for that. Add to that...etc.

This isn't making excuses (believe me, I've read quite enough hateful flaming at DU on the subject of overweight people) -- it's me trying to analyze a host of possible underlying causes that will have to be dealt with, and feeling guilty and ashamed is not going to help.

So fruit doesn't help either, eh? Oh darn. I just had a ripe plum cut up into a bowl of yogurt, and it was delicious. Fruit juice I can live without, and I never drink non-diet sodas--though now that I know more about the diet kind I don't drink that either. After reading about HFCS here at DU I started reading labels for that additive -- so far it seems that Trader Joe's products don't include it.

Yogurt and cheese are a big part of my diet. I never met a cheese I didn't like, except the fat free ones, which imo are not worth putting in my mouth. Regular cheese is caloric, though, no question about that. Fat free cottage cheese is good, though.

As for the glucometer -- I threw that comment in because I thought they had to be prescribed, and assumed I wouldn't be able to get one or to be taught how to use it. Am I wrong about that? Because at this point I am willing to give it a try if it will help me establish what my patterns are.

Thank you very much, pitohui, for your understanding and advice.

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. You can buy a glucometer without a prescription

now learning how to do the finger stick can be tricky, but today's lancetting devices make it fairly easy... just get a sharps container, and some units require really small samples and ask your doctor for a regime. You are not taking insulin, so testing every day after every meal might not be necessary. In fact, it is not necessary. I did it in the beginning and had a very good idea of how things affected me.

These days I use one that allows me to test in the arm... caveat, less painful but only preprandial, that is before I eat

Or when there will be no dramatic changes, such as after exercise, since the capillaries in the arms are far slower to catch up, at times all the way to 20 points

Normal values are 80-120 mg\dl, and after a meal a normal spike is up to 40 points up to two hours after a meal, finger stick

Watch for certain signs, such as thirst, which can be related to high blood sugars. I am so sensitive that when it goes up, I am thirsty. These days if thirst comes to me I just test... one day I did, thinking it must be high... nope 107.

Also watch for tingling of fingers, blurred vision, things like that, again they can be related.. and the ever popular going to the bathroom early and often

Also your doc should order a full renal function test (for baseline) looking for creatinine and protein in the urine and see your doctor for a base line vision test

Now as I said, I fully recommend you explore glycemic index... it will be slow for the states to catch up, but that is the standard now used in many countries with national health care

Now to meds, making you gain weight... some do have that side effect, regardless of what my dad says... hell Avandia, I gained close to fifty pounds... so the doc took me off it... and one of my meds in my current regime has that side effect as well... well I am loosing weight very slowly, but the med is working so we decided to keep it for another three months and see if we can kick start the weight loss with the exercise

Remember, this is a marathon and the best way to do this is as a team with your heath care team, which means, ask your doc to refer you to a Dietitian specializing in diabetes care

grrrr spelling

[Hekate]

49. Thanks again Nadine

All the best to you

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. You welcome and I forgot to add

when you do a finger stick, do it on the side, hurts a lot less

And for correct technique you may want to ask a nurse

(I knew since I was a medic... so I had done it on other people many times already)

But a common problem is "milking" a drop, aka squeezing the finger... and that can lead, don't know why, to false highs

[Hekate]

54. I got your PM and wrote a reply, but for some reason I got the message that you can't get replies

Same for another person tonight. I think it's not you it's DU's traffic or something.

Anyhow the formatting did not come through.

I'll try the reply again tomorrow. :hi:

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Its the server

all is as it should

[midlife_mo_Jo]

67. I didn't know that

Is there a reason for this that you can explain?

I'm in the "pre" diabetes stage, as well, so I monitor when I'm trying to figure out how certain foods are going to affect me. Once I've figure that out, I only monitor every morning.

And in my case, my glucose reading is much better when I go low carb - chicken breast or fish, veggies, a salad. Beans don't cause spikes for me but even the most complex carb-filled breads do. sigh I love bread.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. I can theorize, but I really don't know

a nurse specializing in diabetes told me that some years back

As to the side of the finger, has less nerve endings

[pitohui]

72. you can buy the meter and sticks at any walmart, don't have to be prescribed

you have to ask the pharmacist but don't need to show an Rx, they just put them behind the desk because they are expensive and small = gets shoplifted a lot

of course go ahead and get an Rx if you need it to get reimbursed by insurance but if they don't cover it anyway, you don't need it

my husband has lost 40 pounds by eating to the meter, which for him is a low carb diet and for him does mean he has to restrict grains including whole grains like brown rice and fruit -- he can eat a little, but it's shocking how little, 1/2 cup of cooked brown rice, 1/2 piece of fruit, like that, and as i said above, juices are just plain out (other than tomato juice, for some reason tomatoes are a fruit that does not seem to impact his glucose levels)

many grocery stores and pharmacies will have promotions where they give the meters away, so you can watch the newspaper for that

it's just so key because people vary widely on body chemistry, some people spike the meter with milk, some people do seem to be able to eat fruit (which contains a natural sugar called fructose) without speaking the meter, some people can handle the whole grains...but many others can't, you just don't know where you stand without the meter

cheese does not need to be fat-free, it is better if it isn't, in our experience, because we find it satisfies the appetite much longer

also --

SSRIs can certainly contribute to weight gain, one of my friends has gained 100 # on anti-depressants, and he must continue with them, because the consequences to his mental health of not taking them are too severe

you have a double whammy, because you must take a medicine that causes weight gain, yet you want to keep your readings and your waistline below a certain level

one thing i will suggest is, for reasons of sanity, don't be too hard on yourself if you don't get "skinny" again, this may not be achievable for you on your medications, my husband is still not going to be mistaken for "skinny" but he is happy to have his blood glucose levels and blood pressure readings back in the normal range and to have his waistline under the "danger" size for males (40 inches) -- i'm saying have a reasonable goal and don't beat up on yourself if you can't do the impossible

another poster upstream mentioned celiac disease, if there is any chance that you may have this problem, you may want to look into it, because this would require removing ALL wheat products from the diet -- but could also mean that if your fibro symptoms are relieved, you could reduce your anti-depressants (but please only under a doctor's eye, because i'm sure you know that they must be tapered or it can get ugly)

[dogman]

4. Look in to the possible benefits of cinnamon.

I've been on a similar diet and after losing around 16 pounds my glucose was still excessively high. I then began eating a quarter teaspoon of cinnamon on my morning bran flakes and after two month my glucose dropped by 30. I had also lost another 12 pounds. It's anecdotal and I have no real proof, but the cinnamon tastes good and I will continue to use it unless I see a change for the worse. It possibly helps with cholesterol also, according to the study cited. Incidentally, 1g. is about 1/4 tspn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassia#Medicinal_use
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/26/12/3215

[sandnsea]

8. I eat oatmeal

I'll start throwing some cinnamon on in the morning. See how it works. Can't hurt.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

68. Yummy

Try oatmeal with cinamon, a sugar substitute of your choice, and a few chopped up walnuts. Good for my cholesterol levels, and doesn't spike my glucose too much! A little fat (in the nuts) helps.

[pitohui]

10. the usda recommends cinnamon too

i can't eat as much as you without it bothering me but i do try to have a little sprinkle each day on my tea

bran flakes or oatmeal are too much of the day's carb allowance for us, that's why i put it on tea or coffee

[Hekate]

34. Actually I wonder if the cinnamon I started using wasn't part of the reason my blood sugar went down

I started thowing it on cereal and into yogurt. It actually works better in yogurt because in cold cereal (Kashi Go-Lean or Kashi Good Friends) it floats around in the milk and sticks to the side of the bowl.

It's a lot tastier supplement than fish oil, I've got to give it that. :-)

Hekate

[sandnsea]

5. Get a glucometer

And measure because different people respond differently to various foods. I can have some milk, my husband can't.

I eat a raw vegetable or fiber rich fruit with every meal, regardless of the meal.

I am now working on cutting down portions.

I understand the problem to be the speed at which processed foods, and sugars, hit the blood cells. This causes the pancreas to release too much insulin, which leads to diabetes over time. That's how I understand the problem, although I know it's more complicated than that.

Slowing down that process means less insulin will be released which is your goal. Fiber slows down the speed the glucose gets to the blood cells, which slows down the need for insulin.

So I make sure to get fiber in the right fruits and vegetables because they don't have much calories.

It's working so far.

:shrug:

There should be classes for you to take too. We have a 2 day class. Good luck, it's got some scary long term problems so it's important to take care of it.

[Hekate]

35. Thanks for the reminder about classes.I should check the new Adult Ed schedule...

...and maybe ask the RN who lives next door if she's still teaching diabetic-education classes.

Hekate

[Hekate]

56. Thanks for the PM, but I can't seem to make the reply function work.

I think it must have to do with DU's traffic tonight or something, because it happened with another person as well.

I'll try again tomorrow. :hi:

Hekate

[rubberducky]

6. Thanks Hekate I`m in the same boat and also anxious for answers.

[Hekate]

36. There's certainly a lot here to think about. I don't feel so alone and anxious now.

:hi:

[hlthe2b]

9. Do some reading on the Glycemic Index...

IN a nutshell, high fiber complex carbs are good (e.g., most vegetables, whole grains, brown rice, fruits in moderation) with lean meats, fish, low fat dairy, and legumes (beans). Avoid most simple sugar sources (e.g., white flour and other highly processed foods, like white rice, high sugar/low fiber breakfast cereals, cakes, cookies, and the like). Avoid anything with high fructose corn syrup, like the plague (read labels!) Careful with sugar substitutes too as some evidence exists that they can have an insulin effect as well. Stevia is a plant that has been shown to be safe and has natural sweetening effects (find it at health food stores).

Cinnamon (the powdered type, especially the really spicy hot reddish brown variety) has been shown to help regulate blood sugar. Make sure you are getting enough fiber in your diet (that includes soluble fiber from beans and fruits and the insoluble type from whole grains). Fiber really helps a lot to stabilize blood sugar.


Do yourself a favor and spend considerable time at http://www.glycemicindex.com/
They have some book links as well.

Good luck.

[pitohui]

11. this is a case of please don't follow this advice unless you actually use the meter

this poster says high fiber complex carbs are good -- that is not true in my husband's case, whole grain and more than a tiny portion of fruit spike the meter

you cannot follow some general rule because everyone wants to sell you fruits and vegetables, without admitting to the very significant differences between these two categories -- vegetables are for the most part very low in carb and good for the metabolic syndrome, fruits (and fruit juices) can be a real threat to your readings

and because we have farm subsidies no one wants to admit that grains are hazardous to your readings, they just mumble about "whole grains," well, try it with the meter, and see if whole grains treat you any better, because in a lot of cases "what everybody knows just ain't so"

[hlthe2b]

25. Whoah.... Pitohui, it goes without saying that you need to

adjust your diet to your own body's responses. (I stated fruit in moderation, by the way and in no way indicated there was no difference between high fiber vegetables and fruit, quite the contrary). The OP requested general informational background on dieting for pre-type2 diabetes (Insulin resistance), at least from their description-which is a different situation than chronic (and unstable) type II, as you describe in your husband. Without a doubt, the poster-- we can agree-- needs to pin down their doc for a detailed consult or ask for a referral to a diabetes nutritionist.


The research staff led by Jennie Brand-Miller, PhD, at University of Sydney who also oversee the glycemicindex.com website are the world's leaders in insulin resistance and glycemic index. That is why I directed the poster there for background information. With that information, they would then be prepared to schedule a full nutritional consult with their physician or a referral nutritionist, as they might recommend.

Best wishes on your husband's good health.

[pitohui]

73. you are right, i was trying to emphasize this, maybe came on too strongly!

i was just shocked at how he spiked the meter w. tiny amounts of fruit, i've met others who spiked it with milk, it just never ceases to amaze

i firmly feel it's safest to use the meter to test for oneself

amazing how "we're all different on the inside"

[shanti]

45. stevia

i would definitely second that one! it's a natural sweeter that the FDA still wants to regulate. i just discovered a product from celestial seasonings called "zingers to go". they're slim packets of flavored tea (herb, green) lightly sweetened with stevia, that you mix into your 8oz water bottle. i've been weaning myself from a looong habit of drinking sodas and this works just right. it's only slightly sweeter and more tart than water. i also water down fruit juices - they seem to taste better that way, not so cloying.

anyway, just a tip. i don't have diabetes, but my sister was recently diagnosed (no family history either).

peace!

[sandnsea]

52. Where do you buy those?

Are they right there with the rest of the celestial seasonings teas? Sound perfect. I've been drinking crystal light, which I dilute way down. But your stuff sounds lots better.

[shanti]

59. i think you can buy them in the

natural foods sections of grocery stores, but i found these at grocery outlet here in california. sacramento is a test market, so we get a lot of "different" foods to try out. it's way different than crystal lite - no splenda. i can't handle any of the artificial sweeteners. you can buy stevia powder by itself in health food stores.

http://www.celestialseasonings.com/products/zingers-to-go/

[sandnsea]

61. Thanks

I'll look for them. They look yummy.

[rawtribe]

12. I saw this on Treehugger today:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/09/raw_for_30_days.php

[Lydia Leftcoast]

If you're not losing weight, get your thyroid checked, too

But I agree that refined carbs are poison for you.

One thing that EVERY diet agrees on is Eat your vegetables, especially the fibrous and low-starch ones. Even the low carb diets allow leafy vegetables, celery, green beans, broccoli, cauliflower, green peppers, and other such veggies.

Snack on nuts and sliced veggies.

[Hekate]

42. Right. He keeps swearing my thyroid is fine, but I'll ask again next time. nt

[uberblonde]

13. Carbohydrate Addict's Lifespan Program.

Drs. Rachael and Richard Heller. It's the only diet I can live with, because you can eat whatever you want; you just have to learn how and when. Easy to follow, works really well if you stick to it.

[fed-up]

15. Read "8 Weeks to Optimum Health" by Andrew Weil-one cent on amazon

I used this book to help me gradually change my eating habitss to get away from wheat and dairy and to stop eating processed foods.

I also was my mother's caregiver after her massive stroke possibly brought on by diabetes, (and high blood pressure and slightly overweight) and used the same principals for her dietary changes.

All she had to do was lose 15 pounds and her blood sugars were fine. She needed NO medications until almost 3 years later when she went into diabetic ketoacidocis brought on by her undiagnosed lung cancer which was finally diagnosed at stage 4...

Anyway he has you slowly change your eating habits (and a few others as well) because the key to good health is being able to permanently get rid of unhealthy habits and realize that a healthy diet not only tastes better, but will keep you alive much longer! (and is better for the earth)

Eight Weeks to Optimum Health: a Proven Program for Taking Full Advantage of Your Body's Natural Healing Power

http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/submitRare.cgi?author=&title=weeks+to+optimum+health&keyword=&isbn=&order=PRICE&ordering=ASC&dispCurr=USD&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&timeout=20&match=Y&store=Abebooks&store=AbebooksDE&store=AbebooksFR&store=AbebooksUK&store=Alibris&store=Amazon&store=AmazonCA&store=AmazonUK&store=AmazonDE&store=AmazonFR&store=Antiqbook&store=Biblio&store=Biblion&store=Bibliophile&store=Bibliopoly&store=Booksandcollectibles&store=Half&store=ILAB&store=LivreRareBook&store=Maremagnum&store=Powells&store=Strandbooks&store=Tomfolio&store=ZVAB

good luck!

From Amazon.com
"Health," Dr. Andrew Weil writes, "is a dynamic and temporary state of equilibrium destined to break down as conditions change." In other words, there's no such thing as the type of health that allows you to feel equally great every day of your life. Instead, Weil suggests, your goal should be to improve your resilience to disease, and while you're at it, feel more joy and strength.
As to how you should gain this strength, joy, and resilience, Weil doesn't come on with a hard sell to give up every bad habit or all of the foods you enjoy. Instead, he suggests gradual changes: clean your pantry of whatever cooking oils you have there, except olive oil; start taking vitamin C three times a day; walk a few minutes a day; eat some fish and broccoli. The program is so simple and sensible that anyone trying it probably will feel better in a week.

The program then gets progressively more involved--more supplements; more of a shift toward a diet based on whole grains, fruits, and vegetables; more exercise. Besides these steady changes, each week's program has a focus: In week 2, you start drinking bottled or filtered water; week 3 focuses on organic produce; week 4, on sleep; week 5, using a steam bath or sauna; week 6, trying a "universal tonic" like ginseng; week 7, volunteering in your community; and finally, in week 8, figuring out how to integrate permanently the elements of the program into your life.

Even those who don't go for the entire program will probably find something here to like--the recipes, maybe, or the suggestion that you cut back on strenuous types of exercise like running and competitive sports in favor of brisk walks. It's perfectly useful either way: as a total lifestyle overhaul, or a series of suggestions, any one or two of which will probably help you feel better. --Lou Schuler




added note here- Her blood sugar stabalized as soon as she lost the 15 pounds as that was enough to overtax her pancreas. She would have her blood checked every few months or so since we were doing such a good job. I was not overly anal about counting carbs or any of that, just eating a healthy diet. I know I read a book on diabetes at some point, but don't remember which one it was.

I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on the internet. Each person is different and depending on the severity of your sugar levels, so before you get too freaked out and wigh and measure every morsel that goes into your mouth, see what a little weight loss will due to your blood sugar numbers. Also remember that stress can wreak havoc with blood sugars...along with a number of other health issues.

[Hekate]

43. Ah, yes, your PS about stress levels rings a bell

All last year my mother was flaming out, and last fall she died. I went into iron deficiency. My blood pressure was up then too. Now my BP is back to normal, and both my iron and blood sugar are better.

Coincidence? Hmmmm.

Hekate

[kineneb]

19. here are some suggestions - online

Hubby was diagnosed with diabetes in 1991, after he started losing his sight. The doc said he had probably been diabetic for a number of years. Alas, the damage was already done and he is on dialysis now, with no improvement expected.

I have lots of experience cooking and living with diabetes.

here is the ADA's food pyramid and info:
http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/foodpyramid.jsp

Their site has lots of information on diabetes and nutrition. If you are "pre-diabetic" then you should probably consult a nutritionist, if you can. Doctors don't "do" nutrition very well.

and more here:
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-prevention.jsp

[IDemo]

20. I have this book, but have not attempted the regimen

Diabetes Solution, by Dr Bernstein. He advocates a very low carb diet (~30gms daily). It's for those with Type 1 or 2.

[TreasonousBastard]

22. I was in the same position,and got advice from...

a dietician in addition to a diabetes specialist. I got worse, but many get better through diet and exercise alone.

The thing is that what we call "diabetes" is any number of problems that all end up giving us high blood sugar. Some of us will simply respond to diet and exercise-- keeping carbs down to under 250 grams a day and at least a half hour of decent cardio.

Others won't respond, either because they're cheating or, more likely, they have more profound problems.

Your doctor should have given you more specific advice, but, quite frankly, even though they know the diagnosis, most don't really know what lifestyle changes to advise.

At any rate, the accepted procedure is to start rigorously adhering to the diet and exercise regimen and see if that works. If things get worse, then you go to the next step-- usually adding pills to the regimen. Not much else you can do, since there is no reliable way of guiding the disease through its phases.

As far as books go, pretty much forget it. Most I've seen are written by advocates for this and that. Much quakery and hokum out there. If you get to the point of blood glucose testing, there will be reliable literature enough in the groups and classes you'll go to.

[Hekate]

24. OMG.To think I was half-afraid no one would reply! Thank you all--I'll start reading your posts now!

:hi:

[Kip Humphrey]

37. Modified Carbohydrate Diet...

I was diagnosed pre-diabetic in February when I switched to the modified Carb Diet. I've lost 40 Lbs (a good thing). My blood sugar normalized and cholesterol dropped.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

38. Are you going to try to find a different doctor?

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Most internist know crap about specific diets

The doctor should be sending her to consult wiht a registered dietitian who deals with diabets

[Hekate]

48. Agreed. Mostly what I try to do is be aware of where his gaps are.A dietitian is next.

Having someone who knows you and can put the whole picture together is valuable, and supplementing his expertise with specialists just means we acknowledge he is not God.

Hekate

[librechik]

50. Syndrome X: Here's what worked for me

http://www.ttuhsc.edu/SOM/FamMed/wholefoods.html

I lost 40 lbs in about 18 months. The I gained back 10 over the holidays and I'm trying to take those off. My longterm goal is about another 30 lbs to lose.

My doctor liked the UTI Whole Foods diet so much she went on the diet herself.

It's just standard "real medicine" Dietitians at the University of Texas created the Whole Foods Diet:low carb low fat, whole grains, unprocessed foods, common sense and an easy mnemonic. Think of a stoplight--Green light=eat as much as you like, yellow light, be cautious with these foods, red light, don't go there!

I also think of it as the non-white diet-no white sugar, no white rice, no white bread, no white potatoes, no white pasta--you get the idea. Also easy to remember.

worst of all, I had to start exercising. The diet makes you feel healthier, but for me it didn't work for weight loss until I started mocving. You have to get the internal oven going to burn calories--it doesn't take that much, really. (I'm 55 and arthritis, so believe me it hurts!) At first I invested in a trainer and health club and that was the most effective for the initial weight loss. Now I'm managing on my own.I have an inexpensive rowing machine I use every day for about 20 minutes, At work I walk: fifteen minutes out, fifteen minutes back on my lunch break. I go into the neighborhood around my workplace and suck my stomach in and step slowly and steadily until the sweat starts up--that's the signal your metabolism is firing up--then walk slowly keeping a slight sweat going and drink water as you go. That's the fat burning gold zone. Try to keep that going as long as you can.

It is really hard to get started, and I can always think of a thousand excuses not to do it, but it feels so great when I do. It is slow progress for sure, but once you "get" the glycemic cycle, it gets easier to feed your machine properly.

Good luck--my dad died of complications from adult onset diabetes and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[sandnsea]

53. I just printed that out

It's perfect. That's what we've been doing and it's keeping our blood sugar down. I haven't seen a list like that though. That should make grocery shopping a lot easier, especially for my husband since he does most of it. Thanks!!

[Hekate]

57. Thanks for yet another link to follow up on.I've taken a page of notes from this thread tonight.

Definitely bookmarking this thread.

Hekate

[scruffy]

58. One other thing about thyroid . .

I had been on Synthroid for years and never felt it did any good. A new doctor changed my prescription to ARMOUR THYROID and I immediately saw a difference - and it helped take some weight off too.

The doc had said that Armour Thyroid is sometimes hard to find and not all pharmacies carry it, but I've had no trouble in getting it. Smells awful though!

[Locrian]

60. differences in thyroid T3, T4 etc

Synthroid is T4, Armour is T4 AND T3. You could have reverse T3, high TSA, etc that prevents the T4 from being converted to T3 (which is what you actually need).

T4 is not what really is used by the cells, but it is part of what the HPA uses to sense amount of (the feedback). It is supposed to be converted to T3 - if it DOESNT then you have a problem. You can also get plain T3 compounded etc.



I agree to have the thyroid checked (by someone who knows what to look for and how to interpert the results). Also, I would recommend checking your hormones and especially cortisol.

[Avalux]

62. You've gotten a lot of advice already - hopefully you'll read my post.

First of all, eating well-balanced meals without overeating and concentrating on vegetables and whole grains is best (continue avoiding the 4 whites). There is no specific book or diet out there that will be the "magic bullet" for you. You will have to find a way to take all the information you have and construct meals that fit your lifestyle. By all means, continue to exercise.

If you are not diabetic but it's in your family, please continue to check your blood sugar regularly. It is possible that no matter how well you eat or how much you exercise, you might at some point be diagnosed with diabetes because it's in your genes and out of your control.

My best advice however - ask your internist to refer you to an endocrinologist.

Take care.

[Hekate]

74. Thank you, too. I've bookmarked this thread because there's so much here. nt

[SoCalDem]

76. My husband's endocrinologist told him a good trick.. a mind game

smaller plates..and I serve meals like a restaurant.. once course at a time..

I despise measuring and weighing, so I bought some Glad storage cups the small ones are exactly 3/4 cup and the ones with the blue lids are one cup.. I measure stuff in them and put them on his plate..

we use real butter..(less of real butter is more satisfying and safer than the petro-butter-wannabee stuff)

i cook with olive oil, and broil lots of stuff..

Sometimes, he will eat his salad, and tell me.."half portions" because he's already full..

The little cheese sticks are a favorite of his, and of course raw cauliflower & broccoli & carrots to snack on..

Skip the artificial sweeteners, if you can.. just drink tea au natural and use some lemon or a squeezed orange into your water :)

He loves the Kashi cereals.. they cost about double, but they are healthier.

Here's a tasty chicken recipe (contains NO corn flakes)

chicken breast browned in olive oil..sprinkle with McCormick's salad Supreme...brown some more.. It's also great on those dreaded potatoes (when you just HAVE to have some )..

[Cha]

70. I told my friend, who is the head

of NAVS, about this thread and he gave me two very good books to recommend to you, Hekate.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FBC8A73CL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Defeating-Diabetes-Brenda-Davis/dp/1570671397
These books have incorporated the vegan diet we were discussing(:)) upthread.

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J19JNXRZL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/Healthy-Eating-Prevent-Treat-Diabetes/dp/0471435988

Just some choices for you, Hekate. :)

[Hekate]

75. Oh good, more books!

;-)

H

[Poiuyt]

77. For correct and up-to-date info, join the American Diabetes Association

You then get their magazine and have full access to their web site. The ADA is the
one source for diabetes info that a layman can find without doing huge
research, and its info is correct and helpful.

[Thirtieschild]

78. I'm also pre-diabetic and need to lose weight

A nutritionist advised me to eat with every meal
fruit
vegetable
protein
water-soluable fiber
zero sugar

The diet worked nine years ago (when I was nine years younger) and I felt so good about losing twenty pounds that I convinced myself I could eat ice cream now and then. And then every day. And then....having more trouble losing on the diet now. And I have to or it's going to be full-blown type 2 diabetis. And BTW, did you know that stress can shoot your blood sugar reading into the stratosphere? Last year when I was in the hospital with a full knee replacement, my bloo sugar soared to 217.

Recently my sister and I went on a simultaneous diet, South Beach for me, the Blood Type Diet (in our case Type O) for her. I've lost six pounds and am stuck, she's lost 15.

Good luck and please post everything you learn.

[youthere]

79. What works for me:

is to be vigilant about portion sizes, and eating regularly. I don't go for long stretches without eating and then "gorge". I eatsmaller meals with sensible snacks in between. This helps to keep my blood sugars more stable, and it's not as hard on mypancreas...as it does not have to deal with huge swings in blood glucose levels. Portion sizes are SOOO important. Read labels and keep in mind that one carbohydrate serving is about 15 grams *(when you are reading labels you are looking at TOTAL carbohydrates, NOT just the sugar grams). My typical meals include 2 carbohydrate servings (thats 30 grams of carb)...and snacks are about 1 (thats about 15). And remember that carbohydrates come in different forms; milk, juice,dried beans, fruit.. all contain carbohydrates (actually everything does, but these contain a lot per serving).
Excercise is key too. It doesn't mean that you have to start training as though you were getting ready for the Olympics..just get up and move after meals. Take a walk, clean the kitchen (vigorously-mop that floor!) put laundry away,vaccumn, haul that stuff out the garage...whatever, just MOVE. Start parking further away from the store entrance, take the stairs instead of the elevator...you know..small changes.
Replace refined white flour in your diet with whole grains as often as possible. Both provide carbohydrates, but the whole grains take longer for your body to break down, so it helps to keep your blood sugar levels at a more even level.
Movement, and watching your portion sizes and eating at regular times will go a long way to making you feel healthier, and (hopefully) staving off diabetes.
I'm a diabetic myself, and I've found the closer I follow my own advice, the more stable my blood sugars are, and the better I feel. I'm absolutely vigilant about serving sizes, and I don't deny myself anything with the exception of two things..pancakes and spaghetti...I always overindulge (*read: eat like a frickin'pig*) when it comes to those two things, so I avoid them completely. It's a sacrifice, but I just think of them like poison to my body...because that's exactly what they become.

[AlCzervik]

80. i stopped eating junk food and processed carbs and i started exercising

85 pounds lighter now and all numbers are in the healthy range.