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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:00 AM
Original message
One Flew East
"…one flew east, one flew west
One flew over the cuckoo’s nest."
-- the William Matrimmatoe chant


Yesterday, there were some fascinating discussions on the Democrat Underground’s General Discussion forum that we might call the "Circuit City threads." There were several issues being discussed that I think are worthy of our attention, including the dehumanizing effects of a corporate state, how laws can be applied in ways that may restrict what our civil rights, and potential avenues for public protest that are protected by Amendment 1 of the Bill of Rights.

There were some interesting disagreements about some of the issues being discussed. I felt that people on both sides of the disagreements made some valid points. I thought that the issues that DUers focused on were raised in a more interesting manner than the event at Circuit City itself. And that got me thinking about how, at its best, DU reminds me of one of my favorite books and movies, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest."

There are, of course, significant differences between the movie and the book. One that comes to mind is that the book has its central figure, Chief Bromden, tell of one of his favorite childhood memories, which involved a variation of the children’s lyric quoted above. That is never explained in the movie, and so the people who only see the movie will have a different idea of what the title means.

Chief Bromden represents "America" in both the book and movie, much in the way that the image of the semi-naked Indian "princess" of the 1800 did. He had been brave and athletic – a football star in school, college-educated, and a war hero. But when he sees his father destroyed by the dehumanizing processes of modern life (both in the larger society and in his home), Bromden suffers from a severe psychological break.

Bromden sees society in terms of a machine, which he identifies as "the Combine." A combine is a agricultural machine that is used to harvest fields of grain. The word is also used in reference to industrial processes that mix ingredients in such a way that they lose their individual characteristics. The term was perfect for the time period the story is set in.

The head of the ward is a cold authoritarian, Nurse Ratched, who uses people like machines. The Chief views the "aides" on the floor as being black men, who represent the cruel overseers on plantations. He sees one as a dwarf, because the aide’s growth as a human being was stunted when he saw his mother raped by white men. These aides are described as bitter, angry men who have lost the attributes that make us human – which is why Nurse Ratched has hired them.

Bromden also views himself as a dwarf. He sees the staff as giants. Those reading the book (and to a lesser extent, those watching the movie) can see that the Chief is actually a very large, powerful man. But his perception has been impaired, and his delusional thinking makes perfect sense to him within the context of his life within the institution. He has made the adjustments that he is convinced are necessary to remain alive within the bowels of the Combine.

But things change when Randle Patrick McMurphy comes to stay on the ward. The anti-social Irishman is, obviously, as much of a symbolic character as the others. He is a little less attractive in the book than the movie, but he plays the same wonderful role. He constantly challenges the system, and his antics begins to awaken the inner humanity in the inmates within that institution. Though McMurphey had originally viewed the other patients with contempt , he begins to see them as real people – as individuals worthy of respect.

His respect creates a sense of self-esteem within the individual patients, and they begin to question the Combine’s control over their lives. In the movie, we see how that can translate into confused attempts to exercise their rights. The best example is found in Mr. Cheswick, when he has a bit of a melt-down when he demands that Nurse Ratched give him his cigarettes.

McMurphy’s response is important. In the movie, the message is delivered by Jack Nicholson’s expression – it is evident that he recognizes there are some issues worth fighting for, and others that distract us from what is important. That theme is better developed in the book: Mr. Cheswick is the first patient who really is inspired by McMurphy, but he tends to be a loud and obnoxious character who demands that others change, but who resists making the internal changes necessary to initiate external change. One can easily imagine Mr. Cheswick becoming furious as he exits Circuit City.

McMurphy’s response to the cigarette confrontation does not mean he only engages in actions when he is certain that he will succeed. There is a great scene where he bets the others that he can pick up the stone sink, and toss it through the window, in order that he can escape. "At least I tried," he tells them.

When McMurphy learns that he can be held until Nurse Ratched approves of his release, rather than when his jail sentence is up, he begins to adjust to the rules of the institution. This is viewed with self-righteous indignation by Mr. Cheswick, who responds to what he views as McMurphy’s betrayal by killing himself in a highly symbolic way.

McMurphy’s ability to pick his battles comes to an end with Billy Bibbit’s suicide. He attacks Nurse Ratched, and is sent to the "disturbed ward" for a lobotomy. His final act of self-sacrifice has a curing effect on Chief Bromden: he begins to see the world as it really is, rather than from the misperceptions that result from how it appeared. Chief Bromden sees that the severely damaged McMurphy will destroy the self-esteem in the other citizens of the ward, and so he puts the pillow over Randle Patrick’s face, denying the Combine that "victory." And then he struggles to tear out the sink, through it through that window, and make his escape.

Just as the book and movie were a vehicle for Ken Kesey to express his thoughts on how the institutions of our society dehumanize people, and steal their dignity and their rights, the Circuit City discussions offered DUers a vehicle to discuss these same issues. And just as Chief Bromden recovered from the damage that life inflicted upon him, and came to recognize that the Combine was both internal and external – and then escaped into the real America – we have an opportunity to examine some of the illusions and delusions of life in Nurse Cheney’s America.

The Bush administration is taking serious steps towards reducing our Constitutional rights. The most obvious examples are found in the domestic spying programs which are commonly called "the Patriot Act." They are largely what had been known as the Huston Plan during the Nixon era. Patriots opposed these attacks on the Constitution then, and they should today. But it requires that we do more than simply read the Bill of Rights.

It’s important that we also use our resources properly – we have television, books, and computers. We can find out what the laws actually are, rather than what we might wish it to be. In the Circuit City discussion, for example, one DUer brought the 1968 US Supreme Court ruling in Terry v Ohio to the attention of many who were unaware of this. It is a ruling with a serious dissent, which was reflected in the Circuit City debates.

We should also look to the history of the civil rights movement of the 1950s and ‘60s for examples of what tactics tend to work best. People like King and Parks did not take actions without having given them a lot of thought, and getting the informed opinions of attorneys. It did not follow that Martin always followed his attorneys’ advice, of course. But he was selective in what conflicts he became engaged in. I think that he set a good example.












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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Rebellion
A very large topic.

Who is that person, a relative?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Yes.
Civil War veteran.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Very cool!
Here's my Civil War vet relative...

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. What I've Never Been Able To Answer To My Satisfaction
is how such a turn of events becomes common place. In the last several years we've seen myriad examples of organizations whether governmental or corporate following *'s lead. Police on horseback shut down a press conference the other day, low level security guards at an airport make people's lives a misery, corporations tell you what they are going or not going to do to the services they provide you whether or not you like or want it. I've wondered if it is a huge organized effort (read that as conspiracy) where say all the corporate heads sit at a huge table, much like the Mafia would. and decide how they think our lives should go. Or is it osmosis of sorts? Top down sets an egregious example and get away with it and sets an example for those who are like minded to follow? Are there really so many terrible people living and succeeding? What happened to their humanity and why don't they have it any longer, if they ever did. How does an innocent baby grow up into a *?
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Excellent questions, me!
I can only tell you that corporations do form organizations.

http://eric.org/forms/documents/DocumentFormPublic/

http://americanbenefitscouncil.org/

http://hrpolicy.org/

Now, you'd think that employees of these corporations would take a cue and organize themselves....
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. You Would Think
And what will it take for people to stand up for themselves? Mind you I'm not criticizing in a 'what's wrong with them way'. It's easy to say what others should do but when trying to provide for a family and hold onto a life idealism hits the pavement. But we in this country are in a downward spiral and I have to wonder which kick to the dog will be one too many, when it will finally turn and bite back.

There is a sense of unease and unrest in the good ole USA these days and it goes beyond party politics. It's as if we are waiting for another shoe to drop, not sure what it will be and wondering what we have within ourselves, being faced with who we really are. Will we resist, fight back or try to adapt as they did in the mental ward in the beginning?
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I don't know what it will take. I honestly don't.
Maybe they have to be hit in the pocketbook -- thrown out into the street, no healthcare, no job, no food. Then they will have nothing to lose.

Sorry for the pessimism.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. And how does an innocent baby grow up into a *?
I think it's a case of "follow the money".

About 8 years ago, Senator Harkin spoke at a hearing. His words were something like, "I have found that when you look at something that appears to be complex, all you have to do is follow the money and things become quite clear."

I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it.

How else can you explain the horrible treatment workers are given these days (reduced/eliminated healthcare, reduced/eliminated pensions, reduced benefits, etc.) when at the same time the CEOs are raking it in.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. In his Vol II of
"A World of Ideas," Bill Moyers interviews Joanne Ciulla, a senior fellow at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. She is an ethicist/philosopher who attempts to teach students to consider the nature of the business/corporate world. I think that when we combine this interview with Robert Kennedy Jr's books, we get a clear view of what has gone wrong.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. More Specificity Would Be Appreciated
Unless the simple answer is greed
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I think that
Robert's books detail the absolute greed, the type that comes to mind when we think of people like Ken Lay and Dick Cheney. It also includes Marc Rich and Michael Milken. Moyers asks Ciulla if the wealth and power of T. Boone Pickens and Donald Trump has also alienated them from the broader, democratic aims of our society? A fair question.

She said that, "Trust and loyalty are reciprocal relationships; they have two sides. Youcan't expect someone to be trustful or loyal if you aren't going to be in return." What is interesting is this is very similar to a quote from inmate Charlie Manson on an interview from two decades ago which just played on MSNBC -- though he was talking about trust and loyalty among thieves.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Andrew Greeley: America's Disease is Greed
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0820-09.htm

>>
The most serious spiritual problem in the country today is reckless and untrammeled greed. Greed caused the disgraceful corporate scandals that fill our newspapers. Greed is responsible for crooked cops and crooked politicians. Greed causes the constant efforts to destroy unions that protect basic worker rights.

Greed has produced rash tax cuts that have given money to the rich and in effect taken it away from the poor. Greed has led to the immigration policy in which hundreds of poor men and women die every year as they struggle across the desert for the jobs that el norte promises them. Greed accounts for the efforts to take profitability out of the pensions and health insurance of working men and women. Greed is responsible for the fact that so many Americans have no health insurance and the fact that the recent reform of Medicare was a fraud. Greed causes newspapers to overestimate their circulation.

Greed is responsible for the obscene salaries of CEOs. In the '90s the ratio of CEO compensation to average workers' compensation was 250 to 1, meaning that the boss earned on his first day of work during a year as much as the worker did in a whole year. In European countries the ratio is closer to 100 to 1. Recent estimates put the current ratio at 500 to 1 -- the boss makes as much before lunch as the worker does all year. Greed is the cause of the high wages paid to the bosses even if the company is failing.
>>
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Great post.
Thank you.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. You're welcome. I came across that a couple of years ago and thought it was really good.
I think it was an excellent summation.
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byronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. A chilling metaphor.
I attended the '81 Kerouac Conference in Boulder, where Ken Kesey gave several lectures and showed the Merry Prankster clips in public for the first time. Narrated by Babbs dressed in a green garbage sack, with occasional interjections by Kesey from the projection booth, it is still the most powerful event I've ever attended. Kesey talked for hours one day about politics in the US, civil disobedience, and the strangeness of passing out LSD Kool-aid from garbage cans to officers and housewives in small towns while (what would become) the Grateful Dead played in the background.

He made it very clear how difficult and perilous he felt it was to try to effect social change. His personal stories and historical perspective were bracing; witty, funny, dead serious, a bit grim. His demeanor was one of a man who had tried hard, suffered defeat, and who had now withdrawn from the front lines. It wasn't a pep talk. More of a realistic, gritty assessment of the perils of social activism, and the naivete of the newbies.

It was a great conference. Burroughs, Leary, Abbie Hoffman, Ginsberg, and a host of other Beats, Hippies, poets, and artists -- but Kesey stole the show.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Wow - now that is something I'd have liked to have seen. Even for the bad news.
Wish someone had recorded it and would put it on youtube. Not the same, but a glimpse. Thanks for the post byronious.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Though I never met
Ken Kesey, I admired his interest in sharing in the experiences of those who were at the bottom of our society.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. It often takes the deaths of a Cheswick, Bibbit, and McMurphy to awaken the real 'America.'
We're spoiled ... we keep hitting the Snooze button.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. k&r
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent analogy. wonderfully written.
I have always wanted to read "cuckoo's nest", my dad swore by it. I never really understood what he saw in it. I saw the movie, thought it very good, but reading your easy, proves I have missed so much by not reading it.

(Sorry dad, I see now.)

thank you, for opening my eyes that much further.

Cheers.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. Great post.
I don't get why people talk about "picking your fights." This particular fight simply involves walking right out the front door. That's the easiest thing in the world to do. And is also a very interesting analogy to the Big Chief.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. The beast comes from the east.
May the world awaken before we are all Ratched-ed down a notch.



"Pity is, when I'm paid, I always see the job through."
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. In many esoteric texts
there is great significance in moving towards the east, and/or moving away from it.
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bulldogge Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. some points of interest
To begin I have not read the book but I will pick it up this weekend.

I am obviously preaching to the choir but some points of interest that tie into one another are the "dehumanizing effects of a corporate state," and "laws can be applied in ways that may restrict, our civil rights." now add in "It’s important that we also use our resources properly – we have television, books, and computers." now all of a sudden we have turned the topic to what Ben H. Bagdikian had termed the "Media Monopoly". I think the media owned by the handful of companies helps promote the idea that the effects of the corporate state are acceptable. It is filled with spider webs of Orwellian terms that are intended to make the general populace feel guilty for even imagining themselves being the one to "throw the stone sink out the window."

So now you relate that to the youth of today who have not been exposed to or can even imagine a world that is not saturated with the multimedia culture of today. The main form of media for them I would have to believe is the computer and I have to say most youth know their way around a computer keyboard better than the adults I know so with that said forums such as this are the areas where the light seeps between the tight grip of the media monopoly and exposes the fraud behind the greed that is constantly chipping away at our foundation.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. It is said that
a mind that has very little to compare, has very little opportunity to understand. The corporate media tends to offer very little -- they are a lot like McDonald's. We would recognize that a person who ordered a lobster dinner at McDonald's really doesn't understand. Likewise, if people expect to find much truth on the cable news (with but very few exceptions, such as Keith O on MSNBC), it should be clear they don't really understand, either.

There are good stations (LinkTV), and there are hundreds and thousands of important books. And the internet allows us to re-create the old hedge schools" of yesterday in Ireland.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-08-07 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #24
48. "It is filled with spider webs of Orwellian terms"
Welcome to DU! We must continue to educate our youth so they can discern truth from fiction.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. what a great story that is/was.
I need to rent the movie to show my teens.

Those poor kids are exposed to so much mandatory stuff from me!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. It was on
AMC earlier this afternoon. I was flipping through the channels when I came to it.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. Would that we had the legal scholars hoping for change tht MLK had
that he was able to confer with back during the Civil Rights Marches.

I wonder how we could do this in these times...with so many finding the greatist path to SUCCESS in a legal Career is to go with the "Constitutional Contructionists." (a mis-named group as all the Repug Bush Bot Hitler Youth Groups and inbred instituions are) but STILL...who would we call on to deliberate with before we do an "action."

I think the root of our problems lies in the fact that the Country turned Righward after Civil Rights and Womens' Movement...and there was a huge Backlash that allowed funding to come in from Mellon-Scaife's and Murdochs ...so that we have very few who can handle our cases and be an "ear" for us trying to do what we think we need to fighting back against the Bushies and the Crime Family/Military/Industrial Complex.

But, I understand what you say...and your cautionary message. It's a good one...but where are those folks today ...who were there yesterday? :shrug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I think there
are many, many talented and dedicated attorneys who are willing to assist those who engage in meaningful grass roots actions. I base this on decades of experience of involvement on environmental, civil rights, and Native American support work. My experiences include being in court and government office buildings in local yowns and cities, in the state capital, and in Washington, DC.

I am not advocating caution per say. I am strongly recommending the use of focused rational thought. Play to win.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Understand what you say...and your caution
Edited on Fri Sep-07-07 07:54 PM by KoKo01
you've mentioned that "throwing worms in water...isn't always to feed the fish." (I might have botched that one....in a rush and not gotten the quote you gave correctly...but there are always distractions.

You need to understand though that I've posted on DU about refusing to give my phone #, e-mail or any personal info in clothing stores at the check out...and I've had VERY NASTY salespersons treat me like crap because I say: "My phone # is unlisted, I don't give out my E-Mail address...AND why do you want to know this?

It's been rough...because I'm a Privacy Freak! I've been told by many DU'ers on these threads that the salespersons are just "doing their job" and I'm making life difficult for them."

Would think all of our privacy is worth making our lives difficult...but I understand that many don't see it that way.

Did understand what you say...but also know that many of us activists haven't had a way to cultivate a relationship with lawyers who can represent us. I still feel times are different now than during the Civil Rights Movement where we DID KNOW...many we could trust who were on our side.

Find the young progressive lawyers in my area are still trying to hold onto their clients and none are able to get independent funding to handle Civil Action Cases if we get in trouble in a Peace Action or March now that Patriot Act II and other enforcements since Iraq Invasion have made things harder.

Would wish this would change. But, it's what I see where I live...where "being careful" means you can feed your family even though one tries to do good stuff "on the edges."

Say this as a person who lived through the times you are talking about...so I have memories...just saying.
.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Every year
the local school(s) have forms to fill out, and they include a spot for my children's social security numbers. I am polite in explaining why I have no intention of providing that information. I am happy with the local schools, despite that one request.

On the other hand, I am not a fan of Wal-Mart, but the last time I shopped there I was asked about my receipt. It didn't really bother me. I said something like, "Oh, thank goodness, I thought you were asking for an autograph," the old gentleman said he thought he recognized me, and I was on my way. (Perhaps that evening, he said to family members, "You'll never guess who I stopped today!" Neither he nor they will know.)

Either of these situations could result in a conflict if I took a Cheswick approach. I'd prefer to pick more important things. I'll list just two minor examples. First, a few years back, the high school my oldest son attended had a private business bring drug-sniffing dogs to the school, to do random searches. The dogs gave many false-positives. Students were brought to the principal's office, and the police called. Not a single locker had any illegal drugs.

My son had been held for about the longest, because of where his locker was situated. The school had not contacted me. I attended the next board meeting, and it was not a pleasant discussion. However, my goal was to find something positive for people to get behind. We had the student council hold a public forum, with various community members discussing how to address concerns about drug use/abuse among students.

A second example concerned a female working in a local store, who made an ugly racist remark about my nephew on the night of his prom, when he and friends stopped to buy gas. I made sure that she was fired within 24 hours.

Those are small examples, of course. But I think that they illustrate that there are alternatives to conflict in many situations.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I hear you.........
Edited on Fri Sep-07-07 08:32 PM by KoKo01
I have lost much the patience you express but still try to look at both sides in a situation. Your examples are with the angels...and you are pointing out will have longer lasting results than a "quick, hot tempered" reaction which only causes tempers to fly on either side.

Our times are so dark and the rights that have been given away have seemed to EMBOLDEN folks that many of us encouter on a daily basis, though. Being constantly confronted with challenges to liberties we once had and have LOST is more painful than standing up in a peaceful way to stand up and make a point about liberties one never had, though.

That's what i think is the difference in the times of the 60's compared to now. We are fighting to regain liberties we thought we had WON...and to see ourselves having to go back through all that in our lifetime...well it's often too much to bear. That's what I'm saying here...

We should be farther along! Why aren't we? It's because of what we have in that WH now and what's been in there eroding what was fought for ...and even the Labor Movement...set back ...with all that blood and tears...all that legislation. We SHOULD expect MORE...given all the sacrifices that came before us in the years we've lived and our parents and grandparents. This is RECENT history...not centuries old that our relatives we REMEMBER fought for! :shrug: that's why some of us are angry...and we pop off and feel terrible frustration. But, it's not saying that "caution "isn't" the better part of valor."
Caution attracts as many flies as honey. Vinegar...repels. (I know it's a mixed up metaphor...:-()

Edited...for clarity...in a sentence or two...and typo's and stuff....after posting.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. One of the things
that I have learned is that there are some problems that we never solve, we only learn to deal with them. This is true for individuals and with groups. It is true for some problems that rear their heads daily, and others that are seasonal.

But it is more than that. We both know that there are some fights that were won in the 1960s and early '70s .... where people struggled, fought, and died to improve the lot of others. I agree with you 100% on that.

In response to another post on this thread, I noted that a mind which has little to compare, finds very little to understand. How else can we understand how the American public has, by and large, allowed some of the most cowardly snakes in this nation to fool them into supporting another Vietnam war? How can we have people like Bush and Cheney engage in campaigns that question the patriotism and bravery of Al Gore or John Kerry? Is that not the type of delusion where the Chief viewed dwarfs as giants, and giants as dwarfs?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. (dupe)
Edited on Fri Sep-07-07 07:04 PM by H2O Man
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
33. ...
:kick:
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
35. A bit of trivia
(that is, perhaps, non-trivial):

Ken Kesey refused to ever see the film version of Cuckoo's Nest.

His objection was that Chief Broom was the heart of the book, and that it was the Chief's perspective that gave the true frame to all that happened. When the movie seemed to relegate the Chief to a subordinate character, Kesey felt that the vision the book expressed had been lost.

(Personally, I always thought that maybe the film was truer to the spirit of the book than Ken might have assumed.)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. I know the book
was made into a Broadway play in the early 1960s. I wonder if Kesey saw the play, and if that might have influenced his thoughts about the movie?
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. LOL:
Here's what wikipedia says:

Kesey himself never saw the movie. As declared by Faye Kesey: "There was a legal dispute over financial earnings from Cuckoo's Nest, during which we met with this awful lawyer who was really horrid to be around. At one point he became irrate with Ken and yelled at him saying, 'when this movie comes out, you'll be the first in line to see it.' Ken glared back at him and swore he'd never see the film. And that was that."


That's Kesey, all right. But I did read elsewhere that his big objection was regarding the Chief's character and his place in the script.

I'll go read about the stage adaptation next.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Kirk Douglas.
The 1964 Broadway production starred Kirk Douglas as McMurphy, Gene Wilder as Billy Bibbit, and Ed Ames as Chief Bromden. Kirk Douglas retained the rights to make a movie version of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" for a decade, but was unable to find a studio willing to make it with him. Eventually, he gave the rights to his son Michael Douglas, who succeeded in getting the movie produced. Unfortunately, by this time, Kirk Douglas was deemed too old for the role of McMurphy, and the role was given to Jack Nicholson.


Kirk Douglas is one great guy. Never afraid to play the underdog, or the tortured artist. He contributed more to American culture than someone like John Wayne, in my opinion.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. John Wayne
would have made a good Cheswick.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. He denigrated
Kirk Douglas' willingness to play anyone with weaknesses. He thought that playing someone like Van Gogh was bad, in the sense that one should always project total strength and certainty.

Plenty of people still see that as how America should act, and the consequences are (as we know) often tragic.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. It's interesting
to read that. I can find something about most people that I like, but John Wayne is an exception. I never watched more that 30 seconds of any movie he was in. I did, however, read an interview with him years ago, and remember him as an obnoxious, crude racist.

He reminds me, in several ways, of the current president. Unlike Reagan -- who though he was a prick, actually was aware that he was playing a role as president -- George W Bush is like Wayne, in that he thinks if he plays a tough guy frequently, not only will people be fooled, but he will convince himself of something he knows isn't true.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-08-07 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. You might appreciate 'The Searchers'
He's the same ole tough guy in that one, but he comes across as creepy instead of heroic.

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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
38. Insightful analysis, as always
Edited on Fri Sep-07-07 08:57 PM by Xipe Totec
I see the correlation between Cheswick and Righi.

Thank you!

:thumbsup:
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
42. Who is the guy in the picture?
I don't see anything that explains who he is or why his picture is included in your post.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. It's a secret.
And if I tell people to read post #12, it won't remain a secret.

(It's one of my relatives, who fought the Good Fight in the Civil War.)
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
46. k&r

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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-07-07 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
47. Excellent !!! - K & R !!!
:patriot:
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-08-07 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
49. K & R
Excellent.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-08-07 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
50. k&r. . . n/t
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-08-07 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
52. ....
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-08-07 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
53. not bad
:yourock:
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
54. I thought of something to add to this thread

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll any stones out of his way, and must calmly accept his lot even if they roll a few more into it. Only force that in the face of obstacles becomes stronger can win. Force that is used to revolt wastes itself." Albert Schweitzer

When I first read the post, all that I could think of were personal anecdotes without a bigger perspective.

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