It looks like we got our reward for taking impeachment "off the table"

[ck4829]

Republicans take withdrawing from Iraq "off the table".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=31209&mesg_id=31209

Unbelievable.

[TwilightGardener]

1. I'm sorry, but I don't see a connection between impeachment proceedings

and war. Two separate pursuits. We shouldn't threaten to "punish" GOPers with impeachment to change war policy--if that's the strongest argument or logic that we have to sway them to our side, then we're fucked. Stick to reasons why the continuing occupation is wrong, and not beneficial to Iraq, our country's interests, and our safety. Keep impeachment as a separate matter--tying it to the war makes both our war opposition AND impeachment look too political.

[Clintonista2]

3. It's not about the connection between the issues, it's about the amount of spine each party has

While the Dems are in power, we give in, meanwhile the Repigs are in the minority and they still win.

[ComerPerro]

25. they are a extremely slim minority, and they have the White House

[EFerrari]

5. You bet it's political.

Don't allow the Thuggery to make that a dirty word:

po·lit·i·cal /pəˈlɪtɪkəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with politics: political writers.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a political party: a political campaign.
3. exercising or seeking power in the governmental or public affairs of a state, municipality, etc.: a political machine; a political boss.
4. of, pertaining to, or involving the state or its government: a political offense.
5. having a definite policy or system of government: a political community.
6. of or pertaining to citizens: political rights.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/political

Partisan? Betchur @ss, I'm partisan. I stand by the people that forward my values. I'm political as hell and partisan, too. How else am I ever going to get what I need from my government? :)

[TwilightGardener]

6. Impeachment should not be a political weapon, but instead a way

to address high crimes or misdemeanors and protect the Constitution.

[EFerrari]

9. Why not? If there are crimes, why shouldn't a political party

take it up? :shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

13. You said it--there has to be proven CRIMES--not just an opposition party's

frustration with current policy and desire for revenge or control (ie Clinton's impeachment). Proof takes groundwork and time.

[EFerrari]

19. Bush has been committing crimes since day 0, when he stole

the 2000 election. He's made our work easy by putting his criminality right under our noses.

[Joe Fields]

14. naturally, a political party must introduce impeachment proceedings,

but it should never be a political act. There is a distinction.

[EFerrari]

18. Not really, if we think it all the way through.

If our politics include respecting the Constitution, for example.

[H2O Man]

15. Correct.

Several good historians have connected the habit of presidents using war as an excuse to overstep their Constitutional powers. It is the theme of the classic book "The Imperial Presidency," by Arthur Schlesinger Jr.

[The Stranger]

8. After hijacking the nation and fucking it into an illegal war, obliterating the constitution and

separation of powers, establishing a modern-day concentration camp and spending millions in legal fees to defend it, illegally wiretapping and conducting surveillance on innocent citizens -- you really have to be fucking kidding me if you think impeachment can somehow be "a separate issue."

These are crimes. The cure is impeachment, then trial, if convicted, a meting out of punishment.

[TwilightGardener]

12. You have to be fucking kidding ME if anyone thinks the solution

to ending the war is impeachment! I am for impeachment, but it's a LEGAL process, not a reaction to policy or a threat. Impeachment may be initiated from investigations of the USA scandal, Hatch Act violations, warrantless wiretapping/Patriot Act overreaches, or phony intelligence--none of these causes will have any impact on Iraq NOW.

[The Stranger]

20. You must be intentionally trying to ignore what is staring you in the face.

Intentionally and fraudulently lauching a war that murders hundreds of thousands based on lies is a war crime. This is far beyond "policy" and "threat." And it is an ongoing war crime. The cure for a crime by the executive is impeachment. If that is fucking kidding you, then I'm not laughing.

But even if you didn't agree with that profound logic, throw in any dozen of other crimes committed by this maladministration, and you have impeachment after impeachment after impeachment after impeachment.

What part of this don't you understand?

[TwilightGardener]

23. YOU might see it that way, and I might see it that way, but to impeach, you

need hard evidence, you need to build a case, just like a lawsuit. So far, we don't have it--instead, we get "oops, we made mistakes" blamed on faulty intelligence. As long as this excuse is believed, nothing will happen. And impeachment won't stop the war. That horse is too long out of the barn.

[The Stranger]

26. Bullshit.

There are mountains of evidence. There is evidence everywhere. This web site teems with evidence of the lies, deception, fraud -- the inescapable crimes of this Administration. You don't have to have an admission of guilt by the war criminal to have "evidence" of his crime.

Someone is keeping Nancy Pelosi from allowing the Nation to utilize its natural recourse for healing itself. And for that, she is complicit in its demise.

[warren pease]

16. Impeachment is the last remaining line of defense...

There are at least four really good reasons to impeach Bush and Cheney right now, along with the rest of this hideous administration:

1 Simple justice says they must be held accountable for their crimes and punished to the full extent of the law.

2 Their totalitarian PNAC-driven agenda must be exposed so that the American people understand the magnitude of their unprecedented criminality.

3 Somebody has to put a stop to their murderous agenda before they can nuke Iran or shed any more blood in Iraq or Afghanistan.

4 They must serve as an example of what will happen to the next right wing cabal if it tries to replace representative democracy with fascism.

And then there’s impeachment as a last means of self-defense. It’s getting a bit urgent, and all the pieces are now in place to install a pure fascist dictatorship. Below are links to recent presidential directives. Draw your own conclusions.

This is from July 17, and sanctions property and liquid asset seizure for pretty much anyone BushCo deems a pain in the ass, and for anyone who tries to help the seizure target with money, lodging, a job or who tosses a couple of quarters into their begging cup. Here's the text of the directive:

How to legally steal your stuff


The following is a link to two earlier directives, signed May 9, 07, both of which provide the framework and excuses for implementing martial law (which is what declaring a national state of emergency means to these swine). Note that Bush is to be the sole guarantor of the continuance of Constitutional law under these conditions, and that he’s the only one who gets to define what constitutes grounds for declaring a state of emergency.

Lock up the usual suspects


So just give these maniacs time to put a few more minor pieces in place -- warrantless spying on Americans being a key element and a done deal -- and we'll suddenly find our thoughts enclosed by virtual razor wire, our bodies enclosed by real razor wire, our savings donated to the GOP, our houses sold off to pay for war without end, our jobs exported, our families broken up -- and Orwell's vision will finally be realized: As O'Brien says to Winston Smith in 1984, "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."

Not my idea of a great future. Think maybe it's time to impeach? If not, what would it take for you to advocate impeachment? Cheney roasting and eating infants on the Capitol Mall? Bush literally pissing on the Constitution at the national archives? The entire GOP contingent of the House and Senate taking M-4s to work one day and blowing away the competition? I'm really curious where your tipping point might be.


wp


On edit: Here's a link to a report of a town hall meeting with my congresshuman I attended last night. I posted it in my journal and it's the first story on the first page. Note the hunger for impeachment among the upper crust, lily white citizens of Portland suburbia.

Hooley town hall meeting report

[LittleClarkie]

17. Esp. when some folks who want impeachment don't seem to care if it will be successful

then what's the fucking point?

[Ghost in the Machine]

21. The point is: IT'S THE *RIGHT* THING TO DO!

Whether or not it is successful is irrelevant. The impeachment process *has* to be initiated because the Constitution DEMANDS it. Period.

It is also a way to smoke out the enablers and those who wish to help subvert our government. It will FORCE every Representative & every Senator to show publicly whether they stand by US, the people who elected them and put them in office, or if they stand by and condone CRIMINALS in our White House.

How much simpler can the concept be? What part don't you get? :shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

22. "Whether or not it is successful is irrelevant." The hell it is!!

Then why tout impeachment as a way to end the war?

If it is not successful, it does not stop the war.

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. Well, I personally didn't tout it as a way to end the war, and even IF

impeachment was successful, there's no guarantee it would end the war. I'm just making reference to the overall need to impeach, which some people here seem to think is unnecessary or 'a waste of time'.

The simple act of impeachment would in no way end the war anyways, but it's one of the first steps, and a MAJOR step, in the right direction. As long as Bushit is in office, NO legislation passed is going to make a bit of difference. Even if we passed a resolution to end the war immediately with a veto proof majority, Bushit would just render it moot with a signing statement and do what he wants to anyways.

He's an OBSTACLE on the path to ending the war, and he MUST be removed before anything real is going to be accomplished. That's a plain and simple fact, no two ways around it.

[EFerrari]

2. Unf#cking believable. And, NO WAY.

WE'RE NOT GOING AWAY

[ShortnFiery]

4. No, there's still too much War Profiteering: The Military Industrial Complex runs Our Congress. nt

[porphyrian]

7. Who's this "we," kimosabe?

I didn't take anything off of a table.

[demnan]

10. Good point!

[AndyTiedye]

11. There Isn't Any Table. The Repiglickins are Still Making Us Eat Off the Floor