If the Democrats back down, and write another blank

[rateyes]

check for the Iraq war, continuing to provide funds with no firm and quick withdrawal dates, then I'm through. I will officially change my voter registration from Democratic to Independent, and I will not vote for anyone, be they Democrats, Republicans, or Independents who vote to compromise on this issue.

There are too many innocent dead, wounded, and displaced people caught in the middle of a civil war the U.S. created because they chose, out of fear, to cower to George Bush.

Power without wisdom (which afflicts most Republicans) is dangerous.
Power and wisdom, without courage (which afflicts a lot of Democratic leaders, IMO) is useless.

[cali]

1. I can relate to that n/t

[rateyes]

2. I hear the Senate is now talking about a "compromise"

where deadlines for troop withdrawals become "goals" instead of "mandates." If they do that, I'm done. This war is my litmus test.

[cali]

9. The reason I won't follow suit

is that the local dem party is good, and all of my congressional reps won't buckle. They've already announced their opposition to the supplemental and one has stated we need to defund the war to end it.

[rateyes]

19. It's too bad that my Congressman

Jim Marshall a DINO doesn't do that. I won't vote for that guy, not again. I've already done so three times in the name of the Democratic majority. Well, we've got a majority, and we keep writing the blank checks. I won't vote for him again unless he changes his tune. Somebody, somewhere, has to be held accountable. And, the only way I can do that is with my vote and with my pocketbook.

[hvn_nbr_2]

62. Bush's definition of compromise

You bend over. He hints that he might use lube this time.

[rateyes]

65. Yeah, I tell you, Democratic ass is

getting awfully sore.

[tom_paine]

91. Not our Leadership, though

To them, the Fuhrer's member is smooth and silky, and he uses it so manfully roughly.

:puke:

Face it,this is what we have for "leaders" and I am beginning to think that 74% of Germans were better served by the German Social Democrats, who at least stood unified and voted against Old Hitler occassionaly and most notably on the banning of the Communist Party.

[Robbien]

3. No if about it. AFP:Democrats mull ditching Iraq troop cut date

WASHINGTON (AFP) — Key Democrats in Congress, frustrated by repeated failures to get troops home from Iraq, are backing away from fixed withdrawal timelines, hoping to win Republican backing. . .

Democratic Senator Carl Levin said he was considering legislation which would mandate withdrawals of most combat troops to begin within four months, but not, like previous bills, include a firm date for them to be completed.

The hope is that the approach could attract enough Republican senators to assemble the 60-vote Senate supermajority needed to pass major legislation. . .

Levin said he was discussing the new approach with senior Republicans. . . But it is still unclear whether Levin's new approach, which would simply set a "goal" of completing most troop withdrawals by early 2008, would bring along enough Republicans to thwart blocking tactics by their hawkish colleagues.

Even the idea of diluting wording on withdrawal timelines, is already sparking a hostile reaction from the Democratic Party's ferociously anti-war base.

"Rather than picking up votes, by removing the deadline to get our troops out of Iraq you have lost this Democrat's vote," said Democratic Senator Chris Dodd in a statement Thursday. "I cannot and will not support any measure that does not have a firm and enforceable deadline to complete the redeployment of combat troops from Iraq.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h_GwWg9VlRkQgP6uJmHPpXs_53SA

[rateyes]

4. I'm with Dodd on this one...

Levin needs to stand firm on this one. If he doesn't, he won't get the 60 votes anyway...at least I hope not.

[leftchick]

42. good for Dodd!

I wonder what has made Levin flip so far? NSA wiretaps?

[KaptBunnyPants]

67. Why are Senate Democrats trying to make Republicans look good?

If they allow a do nothing bill to pass, masquerading as a vote to end the war, that's just going to allow Republicans to pretend that they tried to stop the debacle in the 2008 election. We're far better off making them choose between loyalty to the Party and loyalty to the country. It's bad enough Dems won't cut the funding, now they want to rescue the Republican Party from the 2008 election as well.

[Robbien]

73. Probably because

the small but all powerful DLC/Dogs wing of the Democratic party have bullied the rest of the party into "bi-partisanship" stance.

[emilyg]

5. expect a compromise --- it's the best they can do.

[rateyes]

6. I disagree.

The best they can do is stick together and end this war. They have the power to do that. If Bush doesn't accept a timeline, then Bush doesn't get the funds for anything but withdrawal.

I do, however, expect a compromise. And, when/if it happens, I'll no longer be a Democrat.

[TwilightGardener]

7. I agree--I'm disappointed, but open to compromise.

[rateyes]

10. It seems, with this bunch "compromise" equals "capitulation."

Bush gets all he wants, and we get squat. That's not compromise. That's bending over and taking it in the hind parts.

[TwilightGardener]

12. I am not as much interested in the partisan power struggle as I am

in forcing even an incremental change in policy that takes at least SOME troops out of harm's way.

[rateyes]

15. It's a sham...

Bush will not bring the troops home if he isn't FORCED to do so.

[emilyg]

38. Yes - that I would view as progress.

[robinlynne]

57. Compromise in this country means the republicans win. over and over again.

And we are the majority. in number of citizens, in congress, in the senate.

[Hydra]

58. It's not a compromise

If shrub gets everything he wants. Again.

[Dr Fate]

81. So the best we can do is to pretend we like being date-raped? Thanks for nothing, DEMS.

n/t

[tbyg52]

90. They don't have to compromise on *everything*

Sure, they can't pass anything the R's threaten to filibuster in the Senate (after all their screaming of "up or down vote!"--*why* haven't the Dems made hay from that????), but they can *not* pass anything they want.

Like that FISA abomination. Should have told Bush "well--based on this unConstitutional garbage you sent us, you obviously don't want the real flaws in this law to be fixed. OK--see you after recess." And made sure that response got reported. Hmmmm.... I may have just found the fatal flaw in my own argument.....

[Cleita]

8. Keep up the pressure on your Senators and Congressperson

even if they are Republicans to stop giving Bush funds except to bring the troops home. The only way to neuter the Bush administration is to cut off the money spigot. Also, there are other things you can do to indicate your displeasure. I recently got a letter asking for campaign contributions from one of the candidates. Since it was from one of the Senators who has voted in favor of continuing the war in one way or the other, either by voting for the IWR or approving additional funding, I sent a note back stating that I couldn't support a candidate whose record indicates those actions.

[TwilightGardener]

11. They won't defund. I know my Senators will not cross that line.

[Cleita]

13. They won't as long as you sit around like a loyal dog.

It's time to show your fangs and growl.

[TwilightGardener]

16. I can beg and plead all I want, but one of my Senators has already

called any notion of defunding as "dangerous", with possible "disastrous consequences", and he WILL NOT DO IT! And he's a Repub, and not running for re-election either.

[Cleita]

18. Nevermind that he's not running. He still doesn't want that seat

to go to a Democrat. Keep up the pressure. It's the tool we have. If we lay down our swords then they really will ignore you. Get as many people in your district involved to put on the pressure. It's all we have. Waiting until the next election to vote for someone else in a different party will be too late.

[TwilightGardener]

25. Well, actually, he (Hagel) IS trying to give his seat to a Democrat (his friend Bob Kerrey)--

but that's an unusual situation. I know what you're saying, though. I was pleased to see that Ben Nelson is saying "So what"? about the surge, but he is right where Hagel is--he is BARELY supportive of timelines, and I know he won't defund, and my Representative is an incorrigible Bushbot. I think they've all budged as far as they're going to, unless something dramatic happens. That's why I'm willing to support a compromise.

[Cleita]

64. I'm telling you, cut off the money spigot everywhere you can.

I know we can't stop paying taxes but there are many ways to stop funding them. Stop shopping at stores that are heavy RNC and RNC candidate supporters as well as those Democratic candidates who accept heavy contributions from corporations who also give heavily to Republicans. Go to the Open Secrets website to get information on who gets money from whom.

A really Draconian way to accomplish this would be a general strike nationally, but that is something the unions have to organize and quite honestly the unions are broken so we have to figure out other ways to stop the war machine that is funded by money. No money. No more war.

[rateyes]

14. I do that all the time...

I got a letter signed by Al Gore from the DCCC asking for yet another contribution. I am going to send a personal letter to Gore and say that I will grant his request if he grants mine...that he runs for president. And, believe me, my Congressman Jim Marshall (DINO, Georgia) and my Senators SUXby Chambliss and Johnny ISUCKson (Assholes, Georgia) know my name and my position.

[Cleita]

17. Good for you. You have to keep up the pressure.

We also need to make sure everyone does it and relentlessly. They won't be able to ignore you then especially if 75% of the population gets involved and that's the number of people who want an end to this invasion and occupation. If you don't, then they really will move on Iran. It's the cyberage version of pitchforks and torches.

[rateyes]

20. I'm about to the point to

pick up a real pitchfork, and ram it up my DINO Congressman's ass. Just kidding, agent Mike. I'm not for returning violence with violence...yet.

[rateyes]

21. Self-delete

[AndyTiedye]

22. And if We Do That, More Repiggies Get Elected, and We're Fucked Even Worse

It is starting to look like 2008 could be a big year for the Repiglickins'.

[rateyes]

23. We're fucked already. nt

[rateyes]

24. What's the difference between a Republican vote

for war, and a Democratic vote for war?

[TwilightGardener]

28. 'Cause the war's gotta end sometime, but we'll be stuck with a 'Pug

for everything else.

[rateyes]

30. No. the war doesn't have to end sometime...

The Korean War is still not over.

[TwilightGardener]

35. Well, my husband served a year there on a remote tour, but I didn't

worry about him, except in terms of alcohol poisoning. When they start losing troops every day, I'll consider it a real war. Right now, it's a 50-year-long standoff.

[rateyes]

37. And, in Iraq, it might very well be a 50 year

civil war.

[TwilightGardener]

40. I think we're REALLY in Korea to keep an eye on China, myself.

And we might end up having a presence in Iraq to keep an eye on Iran/Syria. I don't want that, but we might have to live with a long-term non-combat presence, depending on what our next Prez thinks. Our military is all over the world, and thus I don't see us leaving Iraq completely anytime soon, realistically.

[rateyes]

43. The shooting isn't going to stop in Iraq, like

in Korea. Different circumstances altogether.

[AndyTiedye]

77. Can You Say "Supreme Court"?

Do we sacrifice Roe v. Wade for the hope that we can end the war in 2013?

[BuyingThyme]

29. It's starting to look like we'd have been better off had we'd lost in November.

[rateyes]

31. I'm beginning to think that, too.

We would still be the party of dissent, instead of the party of capitulation.

[BuyingThyme]

32. Well said.

[rateyes]

33. Thanks, and can I shamelessly ask

for one more rec? :blush:

[BuyingThyme]

34. Error: I've already recommended that thread.

[rateyes]

36. Oh, sorry.

Thanks, anyway. :hi:

[daninthemoon]

41. "spineless democrats" is a rethuglican mantra, and this congress

is validating tht moniker daily. the twists and turns of the rethug propogandists will turn this neocon maniac war into this democratic congress's war. I'm so sick about watching this unfold.

[rateyes]

45. That's the problem, right there.

The Republicans will go for Levin's compromise, because it will make the look "reasonable" while knowing all the time it will tick off the progressive base.

Levin's "compromise" is a win/win for Republicans and a lose/lose for Democrats.

And, worst of all, it's a lose/lose for our country, the world, and the innocent children/people of Iraq.

[BuyingThyme]

50. You buy it, you own it.

[rateyes]

55. And if you break it, you buy it! nt

[Dr Fate]

83. And DEMS could easily prove the "spineless" mantra wrong by backing impeachment or ending the war.

Or at a minimum- calling for Bush's resignation- which does NOT require votes and is immune to all the "dry powder" excuses- but try to tell them to even do that.

I'm all for making liars out of the people who call DEMS "spineless"-otherwise,I really dont see yout point- at this point, spineless is as spineless does.

[partylessinOhio]

26. We need a change in leadership. There is no room for compromise.

When the Repugs had the majority they did not give an inch and whipped the Dems every day. In fact you know they beat the Dems over the head constantly.

The Democrats are weak and like we have heard for years, they have no plan.

The Bush/War was based on lies and those lies demand impeachment. There is no excuse acceptable not to impeach, not to end the Bush/War/Lies and not to stop funding the war. A real leader/speaker would beat the bushes to get the required votes to accomplish these tasks. A real leader/speaker would go to the media to get voter support to pressure their Representatives and Senators to rid ourselves of the impostor and end his war and save our country.

[rateyes]

27. I agree.

Does look that way.

[The Stranger]

39. EXPEL from the Democratic Party Those Who are Really WAR PARTY.

Those who have abandoned their Democratic Party's Base and decided to join a subset of Republicans in the War Party, should be expelled from the Democratic Party.

Most important, anyone on DU who seeks to reclaim the Democratic Party and who does not support "Democrats" that are actually WAR PARTY members posing as Democrats -- should not and cannot be harrassed or threatened in any way.

[rateyes]

44. I can take the harassment...

that doesn't bother me. I dish it. I can take it. I won't support warmonger Jim Marshall again, though.

[seriousstan]

46. Any other "protected" group that we can't comment on? I mean, while you are making rules up.

[The Stranger]

72. Just make sure we don't have posters trying to get people banned for opposing War Party "Democrats."

Any problem with that?

[seriousstan]

75. I guess the whole "DEMOCRATIC" part of the DU addresses that.

This is a Dem website not an anti-war website.

[The Stranger]

88. You guess wrong: Just because someone says they're "Democrat" doesn't mean they're a Democrat.

Wake the fuck up.

[seriousstan]

89. Do you have a copy of the list of your "acceptable" Dems? I wouldn't want to be wrong again.

Now that I am awake and all. You are soooo insightful. Do you determine Dem status or is there a committee or internet poll? I am new to the world where you determine who is and isn't a Dem so you will have to cut me some slack until I get up to speed. Do you have a newsletter?

[leftchick]

47. here is what will happen....

http://counterpunch.com/


<snip>

In a pre-emptive move of his own, the president went to Iraq to personally assess the war. This supposedly dramatic visit will, he seems to hope, deflate the already weak Democratic Congress when it gets the report. That the spineless Democrats can be any further weakened is unlikely; they will probably read the report, make a wide variety of statements decrying the continuing loss of U.S. and Iraqi life, express fury over the millions of people displaced by America's imperial war of choice, and then vote for whatever war funding Mr. Bush requests, all in the name of 'supporting the troops.' They will then, by some inexplicable logic, point to it all as a victory.

[rateyes]

48. That is the Orwellian world in which we live.

If any anti-war congresscritter needs a spine, I'll lend them mine.

[KharmaTrain]

49. I'll Show You....

Gotta love the online tantrums. If the Democrats don't do so and so then I'm "outta here" or "gonna become an Independent" and so on. Gonna take the ball and go home, eh? Well, don't let me or anyone else stop you...and don't let the door hit you where the sun don't shine on the way out.

So by leaving the Democratic party, you're really gonna show all of us...and the Democrats in Congress. And also to the corporate media who just love to show how divided Democrats are...making sure the meme of Democrats being weak carries on. Congrats, you've made their points.

Yes, I'm pissed and frustrated if Democrats don't stand up to this regime on the Iraq fiasco. Yes, this illegal war for profit should be defunded and this regime forced to be accountable and by opting out of the process, you just became a part of the problem, not the solution. Besides helping Repugnicans hide in their true enabling of this invasion, you've broad-brushed all Democrats, Nader style, as doing nothing and being the same as Repugnicans. The GOOP appreciates your kind donation.

Don't like what the Democrats in Congress are doing? Then do something about it. Find a Progressive candidate that needs someone to make phone calls or send them a couple bucks if you can spare. If its your representative, organize actions, such as letter writing, phone calling and personal confrontation with other voters in your district to express your displeasure as one of that Congresscritter's constituents. Sitting behind a keyboard and throwing an online hissy fit does little to bring this illegal invasion to an end.

If you're gonna bitch, offer positive suggestions on how to remedy the problem.

[rateyes]

52. Your post assumes that I don't do the things you suggested...

That assumption is wrong. Therefore, seeing as that I'm DOING all I can, and have done all I can to get the Democrats in the majority...and, seeing as how they keep turning their backs on those of us who want this war ended, and seeing as how they keep spouting "no more blank checks" and then write out blank checks...having done all you suggest and more, and still see this congress capitulate to Bush....I'LL BITCH ABOUT IT ALL I DAMNED WELL PLEASE.

And, I'm not doing this to "show" anybody anything.

This isn't about "show" for me. This is about ending the carnage of war. Period.

[KharmaTrain]

66. Obviously We're Not Doing Enough

I'm as frustrated as you are about how this illegal war for profit goes on and that little is being done to end this madness. Yes, it's been double-frustrating to see Democrats who I felt would stand up to this regime not take stands or are scared of some "backlash" if they do develop a spine. We've run around this tree many times in the past year and I suspect it's about to happen again. I'm just tired of the bitching...I want to see alternatives...realistic things Democrats and Progressives can do together rather than rip ourselves apart.

Call it playing "devil's advocate", and there's nothing personal in what you have done. You don't know me, nor I you...instead I'm trying to see if there's some positives that can be generated from this angst, not further frustration. That's what a good discussion board should be about...

[rateyes]

71. Fair enough.

How about supporting all anti-war candidates, and not supporting those who vote pro-war?

[daninthemoon]

54. I get your point, but people from all accross this country finally

voted in a democratic majority in both houses largely to end this war. If we manage to keep the their trust and add more members, and even a president, and this war continues, then what? The already elected must step up to the plate NOW.

[KharmaTrain]

63. Did We Really Elect These People??

I live in a purple district and did a lot of canvassing in the '06 elections...and while Iraq did make a big difference in many votes, it wasn't the only thing that elected Democrats or, inversely didn't re-elect Repugnicans. Many of the elderly voters I met were more concerned with Social Security and Prescription Drug Reform, others were concerned with the crumbling economy and the overt corruption and arrogance of the Repugnicans. It was as much, if not more, a vote against Repugnicans than it was FOR Democrats. Sadly, many here felt the '06 elections was a mandate to swing from one political extreme to the other...it wasn't. It was a first step, not an end result. It got the Democrats back into the game from near political oblivion.

In some races, Progressives and netroots did make a difference, and our voice is louder now than it was in the past, but it's just one of many.

Another thing to keep in mind. First is we really don't have a majority in the Senate. The 50 plus one Democrats in the Senate control the agenda, but not the votes. This slim majority is fighting an organized filibuster by the Repugnican leadership that is intended to both stonewall votes (and not just the war) from going forward and frustrating and dividing Democrats. We also face an out of control Executive that went 6 years with unchecked power and accountability. This regime has used all means to dominate the corporate media and divide Democrats and Repugnicans alike to suit its agenda and purposes. Teddy Roosevelt called this using the "bully pulpit" and this regime has mastered it to beyond an artform. Anyone expecting Democrats to change the political culture overnight deserve to feel disappointed.

That said, the '06 elections are history, the '08 ones are starting to kick in. This is a crucial time for many candidates as they look at the primaries and their chances next year. The sticky wicket many face is how to oppose this illegal invasion without looking like they're "dissing" the troops. There's still a major disconnect by many that defunding this invasion somehow is a slap at the troops...this meme needs to be countered and changed.

It also means showing strength in numbers. Inside the beltway, politicians are bombarded with "Conventional Wisdom"...I think its time they saw 500,000 or 1,000,000 REAL voters outside their windows...ya don't think that would send a message?

[robinlynne]

51. That's what they are going to do, but we can't leave the party, we have to TAKE IT BACK!

[rateyes]

53. And, we can't take it back,

if we keep handing it over to the DINOs with our votes.

[robinlynne]

56. true. you're right. but if we go third party, we lose for sure. I'm furious at Pelosi et al.

Furious, and extremely unhappy. If you can show me how leaving the party helps us end the war, and the fascism and the corruption, I'm listening.

[rateyes]

60. We end this war by electing people who are anti-war..

and who will stand up to any POTUS who will keep it going. For instance, I would vote for a Chuck Hagel over a Ben Nelson any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

And, on edit: I can't stand Chuck Hagel. But, even more, I can't stomach Ben Nelson.

[leftchick]

74. it is way past time to take it back

I figure about twenty years past its time. It is so corrupted by the corporatists the few sane voices are drown out. Who do you see on TV representing the Democrats repeatedly? DLC/Corporatist/BlueDog/Bush dog dems like Carville, Frum, Begala, Podesta, Emannuel! How can you compete with their money and media connections? I see a new party some day for real progressives and liberals. It may be years away but I think it will happen. I know I will not vote Democrat again if Hillary gets the nomination. Bank on it!

[Ezlivin]

59. Is there an Independent Underground?

The Democrats seem to be failing their supporters. Much of the leadership seem blind to the crimes committed by Bush and his cronies.

If they won't act, we need to. And if we do, we won't need them anymore: We'll have moved on.

[rateyes]

61. That's it. WE have to act now.

We can't afford to wait for our elected representatives to grow spines.

[robinlynne]

68. I'm ready.

[rateyes]

69. Me too.

[robinlynne]

76. comeon rateyes, shall we meet at pelosi's office?

[rateyes]

82. Pelosi's not going to do anything...

that would be a waste of time and money. I'm thinking more along the lines of running against my DINO Congressman.

[robinlynne]

87. Well I always support that! The question of doing it is an independent

seems to be a difficult one here on DU. Everyone freaks out.

[ananda]

70. You know they're gonna cave like a Minnesota bridge..

.. so get over it already.

However, I will be happily surprised if they don't.

[spanone]

78. ouch

:hi:

[Disturbed]

79. The Democrats in Congress Have a Dilemma

A majority of Americans want the US Troops out of Iraq with slow draw down.
If the US Troops withdraw from Iraq there might be bigger bloodbath there than
there is now and Iran may have a larger influence in Iraq than it now does. The oil
may not flow to America via US Oil Corps. The Dems would be blamed for all
of these unfortunate events, should they occur. Therefore, most of the Dems do
not want to be responsible for a US Troop Evacuation. It seems that the Dems are in
Catch22 situation, just where the Busholini Regime & the Rwing want them to be.

[LSK]

80. the Independent Party can end the war in 2009????

:wtf:

[rateyes]

84. There is no "Independent Party."

And, the Democrats CAN end it. They just won't do it. If an anti-war Republican, like Ron Paul, would run against my pro-war DINO Representative Jim Marshall...the Republican gets my vote. This is the watershed issue for me. This is life and death, not just of our soldiers, but of our children.

[Dr Fate]

85. Yes there is- the one that the DLC and Joe Lieberman( I ) started in CT.

Problem is, that 3rd party is pro-Bush and Pro-War- but that's the DLC for you...Just ask Harold Ford.

[GeorgeGist]

86. I too am tired of the pre-election hype ...

if the Democrats aren't ready to destroy the Republican Party by Nov 4, 2008 then they get a NO vote from me.