Calif. Gray Whale Shot With Machine Gun

[Ghost in the Machine]

Calif. Gray Whale Shot With Machine Gun
Published: 9/9/07, 6:25 AM EDT

NEAH BAY, Wash. (AP) - An injured California gray whale was swimming out to sea Saturday after being shot with a machine gun off the western tip of Washington state, officials said.

Coast Guard Petty Officer Kelly Parker said five people believed to be members of the Makah Tribe shot and harpooned the whale Saturday morning. The extent of the whale's injuries were not immediately known.

Tribe members were being held by the Coast Guard but had not been charged, said Mark Oswell, a spokesman for the law enforcement arm of the National Marine Fisheries Service.

A preliminary report said the whale was shot with a .50-caliber machine gun, Oswell said.

Coast Guard officials created a 1,000-yard safety zone around the injured whale, which was shot about a mile east of Neah Bay in the Strait of Juan de Fuca. The whale had begun heading to sea Saturday afternoon, Oswell said.

http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.dll?bfromind=2755&eeid=5399672&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne

[cali]

1. I read a couple of stories

about this, and it may make me culturally insensitive, but I am against granting any tribe the right to kill whales.

[SayWhatYo]

3. particularly with a machine gun....

[Pachamama]

4. Cali, see my post below....I am very familiar with the Makah tribe...

I owned a home up in that area near where the Makah tribal lands are and was there when they were granted the rights (back in 1999 I believe?)

They dishonor their ancestors and do it under the banner of claiming their tribal rights and customs...what they do is wrong.

[alarimer]

7. I am only in favor of it if they are truly subsistence hunters

like in Alaska. But not with a machine gun.

[Pachamama]

2. This makes me so angry....and shame, shame on the Makah tribe...

I am very familiar with the Makah tribe and although this AP article indicates that the Makah tribe didn't shoot at the whale, believe it or not, I do and here is why:

While I full-heartedly support the rights of all our 1st Nations to practice their tribal and ancient customs, the Makah tribe in WA has done no such thing. I was living in WA state when a group of younger tribal members fought in court for the right to start hunting the whales again. They won and yet when they were going out on the "hunt" they weren't doing what their ancestors were doing (using strictly canoes) they were using a motor boat as well and they were bringing rifles too. They claimed at the time that they did so to "humanely" kill the animal in order to not prolong its suffering.

All I know is what I thought then, and what I think now - they are cowards and they bring shame and dishonor on their tribe and their ancestors.

I will put money on the fact that the bullets of the machine gun came from the hands of one of these Makah whale hunters.

And I pray that whale is out to sea and survives.....

:grr:

[alarimer]

10. I have read a little bit about this as well

And I think you are correct.

They are doing it in accordance with ancient custom. But the problem is that our government in the past forced these and other tribes to give up their traditional ways, so much so that no one even knows what they are anymore.

But, no matter what, machine guns and motor boats are not traditional.

[Pachamama]

5. I just went to the Seattle Times website and its front page news - the whale died & the tribe is

in trouble...

This may be a mixed blessing....I mourn for this whale, but this whale's death may actually put a stop to this barbaric and dishonorable hunt that has been conducted the last 8 years....

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003876011_whale09m.html

[Annces]

6. kick

[Shine]

8. That's terrible!!!

:thumbsdown:

[BlooInBloo]

9. DU front page says it was harpooned, and has a picture.

[MiniMe]

11. The OP says it was harpooned as well as being machine gunned

I'm not really happy about harpooning whales, but as a tribal tradition I can see it. But as others have said, not with machine guns also.

[Wcross]

16. There was no machine gun, just bad reporting. n/t

[Wcross]

12. I call BULL SHIT on the machine gunning of the whale.

I forgive all of you who have not served in the military for believing the "story". If it were shot with an M2 browning machine gun it would not be "injured". It would be chum. An m2 machine gun can penetrate armor, it can bust through brick walls. I am sure this is lazy reporting & officials who don't know what they are talking about.
Was it shot? Maybe. With a .50 caliber machine gun? BWAAAAAAAA

[Wcross]

13. Where the hell did they get the "Machine gun" report?

From the seattle times- "Officers confiscated the gun that was used, a high-powered Weatherby rifle, Eggert said."

[qdemn7]

14. Machine gun BULLSHIT!!!

Some fucking crank reporter (I won't call them a journalist) must have made that up out of whole cloth. From the Seattle Times:

Dave Sallee, a non-Indian from Forks, Clallam County, said he and a friend were fishing from a boat near Seal Rock east of Neah Bay when they saw two boats surround a gray whale and pursue it. The whale was pulling floats that appeared to be attached to it by harpoon lines. Sallee said he heard 21 gunshots during the hunt, which he said he first observed around 9:30 a.m.

Officers confiscated the gun that was used, a high-powered Weatherby rifle, Eggert said.

A rifle is NOT a machine gun. Furthermore Weatherby only makes BOLT-ACTION rifles, not semi-automatic or full automatic. Furthermore the largest caliber rifle Weatherby sells is the .460 Weatherby Magnum, NOT a .50 rifle.

I'd really know what lying sack-of-shit idiot made up that bullshit! :puke: :grr: :nuke:

[MiniMe]

18. Well, what about the CNN headline for starters: Tribal fishermen held after whale killed with machin

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/09/whale.shot.ap/index.html

NEAH BAY, Washington (AP) -- A California gray whale that was harpooned and shot with a machine gun off the western tip of Washington state has died, officials said.


An injured California gray whale swims Saturday in Washington's Neah Bay after being shot.

1 of 2 Coast Guard Petty Officer Kelly Parker said five people believed to be members of the Makah Tribe shot and harpooned the whale Saturday morning.

Petty Officer Shawn Eggert said the whale disappeared beneath the surface in the evening, dragging buoys that had been attached to the harpoon, and did not resurface. A biologist working for the Makah Indian tribe declared it dead, Eggert said.

Tribe members were being held by the Coast Guard but had not been charged, said Mark Oswell, a spokesman for the law enforcement arm of the National Marine Fisheries Service.

A preliminary report said the whale was shot with a .50-caliber machine gun, Oswell said.

...snip

[Wcross]

22. But the preliminary report was wrong.

Who is going to believe they had this mounted on their boat?



When something is "reported" it doesn't make it fact. I am claiming it was very bad reporting. How ignorant are these "news" people? Come on, if they knew anything about guns they would know it was bull shit.

[MiniMe]

25. Where are you seeing that the prelim report was wrong?

I'm just curious. You have said it, but I haven't seen it in any story.

[Wcross]

28. Uh, it was wrong because they didn't have machine guns.

Officers confiscated the gun that was used, a high-powered Weatherby rifle, Eggert said.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003876011_whale09m.html

No mention of any machine gun, just a hunting rifle.

[MiniMe]

32. Thanks for the link

[Lasher]

80. Possibly a Weatherby Mark V Deluxe bolt action.

You can get it in .460 caliber Weatherby Magnum which is the world’s largest, most powerful shoulder-fired cartridge according to Weatherby.



I wouldn't buy a rifle chambered for this round unless I planned on hunting Africa's biggest game. Or a whale.

[flvegan]

26. I call un-bullshit and I'll give you pics

http://www.seashepherd.org/whales/whales_world_Makah_articles.html

Seems to be common practice. And, as for penetrating armor and brick walls, this is a fucking whale.

When you've got something more than intuition, let us know.

[Wcross]

27. Show me a picture of a machine gun.

Did you see any of these in your pictures? That is a machine gun. The pictures you provided were not.

[flvegan]

29. Show me the folks actually taking the shots.

You say chum, I say maybe they're just piss-poor shots.

Machine gun or not (considering...aren't fully auto machine guns illegal anyway??) you've got folks with high-power, high caliber firepower illegally hunting on the high seas.

Your bullshit call is noted.

[Wcross]

33. I am arguing that it is a false story, that is all.

Do you really believe these people had crew served machine guns mounted on their boats? Really? Even though the police only confiscated a weatherby bolt action hunting rifle? Did I EVER say killing the whale was right? I just wanted to clarify the media is lying about this just like they lie about most everything else. People will argue about anything including FACT just to argue.

Good night flvegan.

[flvegan]

34. I'm arguing media error

because "machine gun" sounds pretty snazzy. I would NOT be surprised to hear that this boat had a Browning mounted on her bow. I've seen worse. I've seen worse dumped into the sea. No biggie.

TBH, for our discussion, I actually think we're on the same side on this one per the gun issue. I agree with you, I think, in that the media is making this out for a lot more than what it is, and the...can I say, supporters of issues will take sides and fight with each other over it, as you and I have proven this evening.

I got played in this regard. I can admit it. I took issue with what you said because of my beliefs and how I could disagree with you on the face of what you said. It was dumb and done totally lacking in my consideration of what you were really trying to say.

At least, that's what I'm thinking. I'm sorry, Wcross. And I'm sorry I let the MSM be a wedge like this.

[Beausoir]

30. Ooooh! What a manly post! The testosterone is positivley DRIPPING from those guns!

You big MAN you!

[Wcross]

31. Grow up.

[Tyler Durden]

45. Friend, you are not doing us responsible gun owners a favor.

We need to stand up and SCREAM every time some asshole uses ANY firearm for such reprehensible activities, such as shoot a whale, hunt animals held in small preserves, restrained shooting, or any other less than honorable shooting activity.

I believe the weapon held in that picture was a .50 BARRETT M107, which would make non-gun experts assume that they had a .50 Ma Duce. A mistake in reporting, true; but the action of these "persons" involved in this so-called "hunt" when defended for any reason by a gun owner make all gun owners look like bloodthirsty monsters.

Let's us as responsible gun owners disavow the actions of idiots such as these, and not try to pick stories apart on technicalities.

[yewberry]

88. I'm a non-gun-expert.

I think it's a good idea to point out that the weapons used were not "machine guns" because that just seems to be shoddy reporting and an attempt to evoke some kind of emotional response. However, to this non-gun expert, the distinction is almost meaningless in context.

The question of whether the weapon is a Barrett M107 or a Ma Duce is a valid one, but in either case, I walk away with the impression that that's a really big fucking gun that is going to do some massive damage to whatever its pointed at.

I appreciate that responsible gun owners can take a non-entrenched position on a story like this one, and thanks for taking the time to see through a non-gun-expert's eyes.

[Wcross]

93. I apologise.

My intentions were pure, just point out that a machine gun was in fact, not used in the killing of the whale. As is usual in the general discussion area people took exception to just about everything I posted. I was appalled at the blatant lie the so called "reporter" tried to pass off as news. I also assumed that it was a given that the killing of a whale was wrong.
I don't care about machine guns, it just struck me as "odd" that anyone would hunt with a belt fed crew served weapon. I always enjoyed shooting the M2 when I was in the Marine Corps but damn, hunting with one?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Annces]

17. List of violations by the Makah in killing this grey whale

The following violations have occurred:

- The Makah whalers have not been granted a permit from the Federal Government.

- The Makah whalers would not be permitted to take resident - whales, even if granted a permit.

- The Makah whalers have acted in contempt of the rulings of the 9th Circuit District Court.

- The Makah whalers must harpoon the whale from a traditional canoe if granted a permit. They did not.

- The Makah whalers are not permitted to use small calibre firearms to shoot the whale.

- The Makah whalers were not sanctioned by the Makah tribe.

- The Makah whalers have not been sanctioned by the International Whaling Commission

http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_070909_1.html

[ecstatic]

19. More hunting hypocrisy? nt

:shrug:

[Ghost in the Machine]

36. They weren't *hunters*, they were POACHERS. Please don't confuse the two.

Everything they did was against the laws of even their own treaty and regulations. Don't broad brush *hunters* by associating them with illegal poachers.

Thanks :hi:

Ghost

[cgrindley]

41. How are they illegal poachers? They have an absolute right to go whaling

it's a treaty right recognized in 1855. They don't need anyone's permission. Currently, there's some internal disagreement in the Makah nation apparently over whether or not members are simply allowed to go hunting whales whenever they want (there may be a tribal trial of the 5 guys who went hunting), and there is some thought that the Makah should wait to get government permission to go hunting (they filed in 2005 and are still waiting according to their website). But I say fuckit.

Really, let them hunt. It's their right.

[yewberry]

89. No, they don't.

They were in the Strait of Juan de Fuca, outside of Neah Bay, where the whales are 'protected.'

This little expedition by these 5 people just set the Makah cause way back, and they are very, very unhappy about it.

[riverdeep]

20. Hmm, I think I'd rather actually be killed by a machine gun

Or whatever gun, than be harpooned and chased to death for hours. It may be 'traditional' but that doesn't make it more humane.

Of course, the most humane thing would be not to do it at all.

[Wcross]

24. Wouldn't be enough of you floating on the surface to eat. n/t

[cgrindley]

21. The Makah don't need anyone's permission to kill a whale

treaty rights. They can do it any time they feel like doing it.

[flvegan]

35. Spoken like someone with absolutely NO idea what they're talking about.

Thanks for showing up.

[cgrindley]

39. Article 4, Treaty of Neah Bay, 1855

The Makah can go whaling whenever the fuck they want. It's a treaty right.



ARTICLE 4.

The right of taking fish and of whaling or sealing at usual and accustomed grounds and stations is
further secured to said Indians in common with all citizens of the United States, and of erecting
temporary houses for the purpose of curing, together with the privilege of hunting and gathering
roots and berries on open and unclaimed lands: Provided, however, That they shall not take shell-
fish from any beds staked or cultivated by citizens.


Since they renewed their desire to hunt back in 1994, they've been subject to a variety of court cases and additional rules (eg applying to the government to hunt), and it looks like certain memembers of the Makah nation no longer want to hang around waiting years and years for permission to do something they have the right to do. Other members of the Makah seem to want to have a trial of these guys for violating internal rules on whaling.

We'll have to see what happens.

[Ediacara]

76. The way I read this indicates that they CAN'T whale anytime they want

"The right of taking fish and of whaling or sealing at usual and accustomed grounds and stations is
further secured to said Indians in common with all citizens of the United States,"

seems to indicate that the right of the Makah to whale is explicitly tied with the right of everyone else to whale. If I can't whale, neither can they.

[Ghost in the Machine]

38. No they can't. Once again you spout off with your *opinion* and call it facts

without any links or proof of your assertations, but that seems to be a pattern with your posts.

Please provide a link or proof of your claim...

Thanks

[cgrindley]

40. See above, Treaty of Neah Bay, 1855, article 4

They have the right to hunt whales.

PS why don't you know this? it's not like it hasn't been in the news off and on for a decade?

[Tyler Durden]

48. Other Stupid Laws: Washington State

Washington
•"It shall be unlawful for a candidate for office or for nomination thereto whose name appears upon the ballot at any election to give to or purchase for another person, not a member of his or her family, any liquor in or upon any premises licensed by the state for the sale of any such liquor by the drink during the hours that the polls are open on the day of such election."
• A law to reduce crime states: "It is mandatory for a motorist with criminal intentions to stop at the city limits and telephone the chief of police as he is entering the town."
• All lollipops are banned.
• All motor vehicles must be preceded by a man carrying a red flag (daytime) or a red lantern (nighttime) fifty feet in front of said vehicle.
• Auburn: Men who deflower virgins, regardless of age or marital status, may face up to five years in jail.
• Bremerton: You may not shuck peanuts on the street.
• Everett: It is illegal to display a hypnotized or allegedly hypnotized person in a store window.
• In Seattle, Washington, it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon that is over six feet in length.
• In the state of Washington, there is a law against having sex with a virgin under any circumstances.
• It is illegal to deflower a virgin even on their wedding day.
• It is illegal to paint polka dots on the American flag.
• It is illegal to pretend that one's parents are rich.
• It's illegal in Wilbur, Washington, to ride an ugly horse.
• Lynden: Dancing and drinking may not occur at the same establishment.
• People may not buy a mattress on Sunday.
• Seattle: You may not carry a concealed weapon that is over six feet in length. Women who sit on men's laps on buses or trains without placing a pillow between them face an automatic six-month jail term. No one may set fire to another person's property without prior permission. It is illegal to carry a fishbowl or aquarium onto a bus • because the sound of the water sloshing may disturb other passengers.
• Spokane: TV's may not be bought on Sundays.
• Waldron Island: No structure shall contain more than two toilets that use potable water for flushing.
• When two trains come to a crossing, neither shall go until the other has passed.
• Wilbur: You may not ride an ugly horse.
• You are not allowed to breast feed in public.

[cgrindley]

49. It's not a Washington State Law, it's a Federal Treaty (nt)

[Tyler Durden]

54. I merely used WASHINGTON STATE as an example.

There isn't enough bandwidth to display all of the stupid outdated FEDERAL laws.

That doesn't mean we have to tolerate OLD stupidity.

[cgrindley]

56. Get over it, it's a treaty right, it's not about to go away (nt)

[Tyler Durden]

62. Get over it, We're in IRAQ, it's not about to go away...

Sound familiar?

[cgrindley]

67. Two points

1. there's a huge difference between a war and a Treaty with a First Nations People (what you just presented is called a strawman)

2. to some degree, you're right. It would take about six months at least to pull out of Iraq, and we probably have to face facts and admit that no matter how wretched the war is, we'll probably be there for a few more years (seeing how no one really has the political will or ability to end it).

[Tyler Durden]

69. I did not present that as an argument.

I used it to demonstrate your "Get over it." comment for the silly way it sounded.

This is not about Iraq, but about people who want "Traditional Rights" without using them in the manner they traditionally did.

How much of this meat was "cured" in the temporary structures the treaty says they have the right to construct to do it in? Killing for a point is stupid.

[cgrindley]

73. Well, using something to demonstrate something is indeed a type of

argument. Are you half asleep this morning or something? You're the one who tried to rope Iraq into the discussion.

And as far as the curing goes... I don't know what happened to the whale in question. I think maybe it sank. Otherwise, yeah, I'm sure they'd smoke it, carve it up according to tradition, just like they did with the last one.

I don't see what the big deal is... the Inuit have whale hunts. No one seems to give a shit about that.

[Tyler Durden]

78. You obviously didn't see the backhoe.

And you are bucking for the IGNORE list. Don't play that with me. I used "GET OVER IT," as the basis, which is a patently provocative remark YOU made.

And as far as the INUIT go, THEIR bullshit whale hunt can go the way of all flesh TOO.

ALL of these guys might as well just hire a chopper and go shag wolves. Maybe they can hire the JAPANESE to shoot 'em up a whale or two if it doesn't matter HOW they get the whale.

Welcome to the 19th Century, kids!

[Ghost in the Machine]

65. Still assertations without proof. *Here's* what a link looks like, with info

Tribe Denounces Whale Shooting
Published: 9/9/07, 9:25 PM EDT

"NEAH BAY, Wash. (AP) - The Makah Tribal Council on Sunday denounced the killing of a California gray whale that was harpooned and shot several times off Washington's coast, calling it "a blatant violation of our law" and promising to prosecute those responsible."

But one of the men suspected in the killing told a newspaper Sunday that he was "feeling kind of proud" and whaling is "in the blood."

"We are a law-abiding people, and we will not tolerate lawless conduct by any of our members," the council said in a statement released Sunday.

The U.S. Coast Guard detained five men believed to have killed the whale on Saturday, then turned them over to tribal police for further questioning.

In its statement, the council said the men, whose names it did not release, were booked into the tribe's detention facility and released after posting bail. The council said the men will stand trial in tribal court, but did not set a date.

http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.dll?bfromind=7434&eeid=5399672&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one knows how long the Makah hunted whales. Archaeological evidence points back at least 2,000 years; Makah elders say that they have hunted whales "forever." During times in Makah history, whales may have provided up to 80% of the subsistence needs for the five traditional family tribes that comprise the modern Makah.

Hunting whales was no easy task. It was made all the more difficult by the complicated rituals that the Makah hunters would observe in preparation for their hunts. Prior to the hunt, Makah tribesman would ritually bathe themselves in the icy waters of the Pacific. They would rub their skin raw on sharp mussels and barnacles. A few days before their hunt they would often dig up a fresh grave and dismember a corpse. During the hunt the they would secure the torso of the corpse on their backs-a gesture indicating their respect for their dead brethren.

On the hunt a Makah whaling crew would silently intercept a migrating whale, usually either a humpback or gray, and plunge a massive harpoon into its back. Attached to the harpoon would be a long line; attached to the line were several air bladders made of gutted seals. The hope was that the inflated seal skins would prevent the whale from diving. After the whale died, a diver would plunge into the icy water and sew the giant's mouth shut, preventing air from escaping during the tow back to the village. When the whale arrived on the beach, the whole village clamored towards the dead beast. The wives of the hunters were certainly relieved; during the entirety of the hunt they had been instructed to remain motionless in their beds, not eating, sleeping or talking.

The Makah Tribal Council began looking for a way out of their financial doldrums. Across the country many tribes had found economic salvation in casinos. Those lucky tribes who, by historical happenstance, found their reservations bisected by major interstate freeways, reaped considerable gambling profits.

But there would be no gambling profits for the Makah. Occupying the most northwestern patch of land in the continental United States, the Makah reservation is painfully remote. Despite a new multimillion dollar marina, which brings in revenue during the fishing season, few people visit the reservation.

The key to Makah economic prosperity had always been the whale trade, and the Tribal Council began to realize that a return to this trade may just prove to be the economic savior that the tribe had been waiting for. Japanese market prices pegged the value of one gray whale at anywhere from $500,000 to 1 million dollars, and since the Makah were the only Americans with a legal treaty right to hunt gray whales, they would have no competition for these dollars.

http://www.alamut.com/subj/the_other/misc/makahWhaling.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[cgrindley]

68. That's not really the whole story and you know it

so just stop trying to be difficult.

The Makah nation appears to be fairly evenly split between those who think that it was a good idea and those who think it was a bad idea. The five guys have probably broken no law that a court would recognize. They've been waiting 2 years to have a hunt authorized (I see no reason why they should even bother to ask anyone's permission), and they've obviously grown frustrated. It's their right to hunt whales. If the Tribal Council wants to try to regulate the hunt, the treaty of 1855 doesn't really give them much grounds to do so.

[Ghost in the Machine]

82. Who's the one being difficult? You still provide no links or proof of your assertations.

Nothing but your opinion. While I don't disagree that as a Native People, they should be able to do as they please on this, I still believe that their Tribal Council rules them, just as our government rules us. Their Tribal Council has said it was illegal.

Are you saying they should have NO LAWS at all? That's what it sounds like to me.

[Tyler Durden]

83. BOY I can smell those YEN now!!!!

Sell off that carcase to the Japanese for $1 million, buy us some WIDE SCREEN TV'S AND SATELLITE DISHES.

Boy does YOUR argument fall apart. They don't even want to EAT it, they want to SELL it.

Give up that one, sport. You just lost the moral high ground.

[Tyler Durden]

84. THANK YOU SO MUCH!

As far as I'M concerned, that puts the nail in it once and for all.

TRADITIONAL HUNTING? BULL FUCKING SHIT.

[LeftyMom]

81. It's a violation of international law. And was not authorized by the Makah tribe, for that matter.

Those are fancy legal ways of saying "those guys are in deep, deep shit."

[fedupfisherman]

23. Why are they allowed to kill whales?

Are Native Americans exempt from the ban on killing whales or something?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

43. Certain groups from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#United_States

In the United States whaling is carried out by Alaskan natives from nine different communities in Alaska. The whaling programme is managed by the Alaska Eskimo Whaling Commission which reports to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. The hunt takes around 50 Bowhead Whales a year from a population of about 8,000 in Alaskan waters. Conservationists fear this hunt is not sustainable, though the IWC Scientific Committee, the same group that provided the above population estimate, projects a population growth of 3.2% per year. The hunt also took an average of one or two Gray Whales each year until 1996. The quota was reduced to zero in that year due to concerns about sustainability. A review set to take place in the future may result in the hunt being resumed.

The Makah tribe in Washington State also reinstated whaling in 1999, despite intense protests from animal rights groups.

[cgrindley]

44. Treaty of Neah Bay, 1855

they have the right to hunt whales. The grey whale is not endangered. Until now, the Makah have agreed to limit their activities:

"Two years ago, a US federal appeals court acknowledged the tribe’s treaty right to whale. However, the court ruled that the tribe must comply with the US Marine Mammal Protection Act and obtain a waiver before it can proceed with a hunt. The Tribe applied for a waiver in February 2005. Currently, the US government is reviewing the Tribe’s request in an Environmental Impact Statement and will begin a formal rule-making process."

But apparently some members have grown impatient with the two year delay. I don't blame them. Let them hunt. Anyhow, it has caused some division in the Makah people and the men who killed the whale will be subject to tribal justice (or not as the case may turn out).

quote from:

http://www.makah.com/whalingrecent.html

[Tyler Durden]

46. Screw them AND their hunt.

An 1855 law, right? Say, that pre-dates the Fugitive Slave Act, doesn't it? AND the "Separate but equal" SCOTUS decision.

Time to gracefully put aside the things of youth, kids. They don't NEED the meat, and I'm sure the WHALE isn't too happy about it.

Time for the Makah to consider themselves above the level of rogue nations that kill whales.

[cgrindley]

51. By your tortured logic, the entire bill of rights is out of date (nt)

[Tyler Durden]

52. Nope. We amend the constitution when REASON demands.

Why should this idiocy be exempt?

[cgrindley]

57. The whole nature of treaties is that they can't be randomly amended

and both parties are not going to agree to it, unless you want to lose vast portions of Washington State back to the Makah Nation by pulling out of the treaty entirely. I hardly think that anyone would go for that... unless you're suggesting that the US federal government should arbitrarily ignore the rule of international law.

[Tyler Durden]

59. Fine. Then HOLD them to the treaty,.

If it says TRADITIONAL, then HOLD THEM TO IT.

[cgrindley]

60. The treaty does not specify traditional methods, only traditional grounds

read it for yourself:

ARTICLE 4.

The right of taking fish and of whaling or sealing at usual and accustomed grounds and stations is
further secured to said Indians in common with all citizens of the United States, and of erecting
temporary houses for the purpose of curing, together with the privilege of hunting and gathering
roots and berries on open and unclaimed lands: Provided, however, That they shall not take shell-
fish from any beds staked or cultivated by citizens.


The right of ... whaling... at usual and accustomed grounds.


That doesn't specify harpooning or tickling the whales to death. The Makah can obviously use any method they want. Unless you really want them repeatedly harpooning whales to slowly meet a very very protracted death. Personally, I don't care. But a lot of people around here probably do. Shooting them after a token harpooning is probably the best way all around.

[Tyler Durden]

64. And letting them get KILLED for their tradition simply demonstrates its value.

I saw no temporary houses for the purpose of curing. I saw powerboats, a .50 Barrett anti-tank gun, and a backhoe for lifting.

BULLSHIT. This whole business is a STUNT.

[leftofthedial]

37. I have the gawd-given right to machine gun whales if I want!

And you pinko commie liburl gun haters ain't gonna stop me!



holy crap, this is awful. what the hell is wrong with people? I'mbeginning to feel like I'm living in the very early stages of a zombie movie.

[cgrindley]

42. Actually, they have the Uncle Sam given right

The Treaty of Neah Bay in 1855 recognizes and protects their ancestral rights. White man should not be stomping around, trying to tell the Makah Nation what it can and cannot do. Currently, they're supposed to wait for the federal government to approve a hunt, but the feds have taken 2 years so far and I guess people got frustrated. It seems to have caused troubles in the Makah as there may or may not be tribal justice applied here as the hunt wasn't sanctioned by the Makah itself (although it doesn't seem like it really needs to be by the treaty's wording).

[Tyler Durden]

47. The Country that signed that treaty no longer exists.

A little something called "The Civil War" changed "us" permanently. We have all grown up a bit since the 1850's. Time for the Makah to do the same.

[cgrindley]

50. WTF! It does so (nt)

[Tyler Durden]

53. To paraphrase the Late Great Shelby Foote:

Before the Civil War it was "...The United States ARE..." After the war, it was "...The United States IS..."

This UNITY hopefully has given the entire nation a new vision of what we are as a country, and we need more cohesion, less devisiveness.

AND, if the Makah wish to be considered a separate nation, THEN I, as Gen. Benjamin Butler said, would take them at their word, and they can be TREATED as a separate nation, with borders and I assume a lot less assistance from the Federal Government.

[cgrindley]

55. You know nothing about the First Nations (nt)

[Tyler Durden]

61. I know that if they want to be a NATION, then I don't want to SUPPORT them

Enough of my tax dollars go to fight wars and support other nations. They want to be a "Nation"? Let them support THEMSELVES 100%.

My bet? If you GAVE them the land and nation status, in a MONTH they would be pissing their pants to give it back so they could have wireless and IPODS.

[cgrindley]

70. They've always been a nation and they were here first, hence the term

FIRST NATION.

Did you know that they can come and go to Canada without being hassled? They don't need you to recognize their status. It's protected by treaty...

and a good thing it is, too, otherwise it seems that there'd be a line up of folks wanting to strip what little they have left.

You realize that you're shitting on a group of people who have a 50% + unemployment rate for the sake of a whale? Who the fuck cares about whales?

[Tyler Durden]

72. I am INTIMATELY familiar with First Nations.

I lived in Port Huron Michigan, and have MANY Canadian relatives.

I shit on NOTHING but their "RIGHT" to behave like testosterone soaked idiots. Their "Traditional Whale Hunt" is BULLSHIT unless they do it TRADITIONALLY.

You know something? In the Year 2007 it is not only STUPID to behave in manners that say "I can do it if I say so, NEENER NEENER NEENER," it's SUICIDAL for humanity in general.

[cgrindley]

74. So do you think deer hunters should use bows only? (nt)

[Tyler Durden]

77. Works for me. I'd let them use Black Powder too.

That is TRADITIONAL among the Great White Hunters anyway.

This is supposed to be TRADITIONAL HUNTING, not TECHNOLOGICAL SPECIES CULLING, and if you look closely you'll notice that I called "Varmint Hunters" using .270's with 20 power scopes IDIOTS as well.

[cgrindley]

79. Well that's just silly

deer and mini 30's were just about made for one another.

[Tyler Durden]

85. You did notice the post about SELLING the carcase, not EATING it.

They want Whale TRADE, not TRADITIONAL HUNTING.

What a fucking scam.

As for deer hunting, it's legal, and since we killed off all the wolves that used to cull the herds, SOMEONE has to keep them thinned to prevent die off from hunger and disease.

Personally, I prefer the wolves.

[cgrindley]

86. Yeah, but I simply don't give a shit

they should be able to do whatever they want with the dead whales. Why shouldn't they be able to do whatever they want?

[Tyler Durden]

87. That's it.

That's the point: you just don't give a shit. From now on (with you) neither do I.

[benEzra]

66. Bolt-action Weatherby hunting rifle, not a machinegun.

I have the gawd-given right to machine gun whales if I want!

And you pinko commie liburl gun haters ain't gonna stop me!

It was a bolt-action Weatherby hunting rifle (like you'd use for elephants or Cape Buffalo), not a machinegun.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003876011&zsection_id=2002111777&slug=whale09m&date=20070909

Officers confiscated the gun that was used, a high-powered Weatherby rifle, Eggert said.

Weatherby Mark V, available in calibers up to .460 Weatherby Magnum.

FWIW, a pre-'86 civilian-transferable M2 .50 machinegun would cost, what, $50,000? $100,000? Not something I'd want to risk mounting on a (sinkable) canoe.

[cgrindley]

71. a box of .460 Weatherby Magnum rounds is like 100 bucks

They weren't out plinking with Jr's 10-22, that's for certain.

[Tyler Durden]

75. REAL tradition, that Weatherby.

One of the pictures shown up the thread showed Mahak in a boat with a .50 cal. BARRETT, which shoots .50 cal M2 Machine gun rounds.

Let one of these "heroes" put their ass on the line in a TRADITIONAL CANOE with TRADITIONAL WEAPONS and TRADITIONAL CLOTHING and I'll support their "RIGHT" to this monumentally STUPID hunt.

Of course, the WHALE might win if they played it traditionally; can't have THAT, can we?

[leftofthedial]

90. I'll tell you what! gawdjeezis gave me even MORE of a right

to blow away whatever I damn well please with a rifle

gawddamn commie bastards

[IndianaJones]

58. I have to fully support their ability to hunt the whales. nt.

[Ladyhawk]

91. Why? Isn't it mostly for religious reasons?

I admit I haven't studied the Makah tribe. I guess it's now on my list of things to do.

"Culture" and "religion" should not give anyone a pass to do something unethical. I frankly don't understand this "respect" liberals automatically give to cultural and especially religious beliefs. Killing whales...oh my god, that's awful...oh...you say you're doing it for religious reasons. Well, then that's okay.

The Makah tribe needs to do the same thing the rest of us need to do: grow the fuck up and stop clinging to illogical and/or unethical belief systems.

[IndianaJones]

92. I don't believe it is an issue of ethics. I am not educated very well on this subject.

I've seen arguments I agree with on both sides.

[Lasher]

63. Thread on the subject in LBN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2983255

[Wcross]

94. All moral issues aside.......

Is it bad they brought something along to kill the whale in case the FIRST weapon (Harpoon) didn't do the job? If you are determined to go whale hunting with your harpoon, wouldn't you be accused of being a slob hunter if you couldn't finish the animal off? If you struck it mortally with your harpoon and couldn't end it? To let the whale die a very slow death? What if they had just got it with a harpoon and it got away only to die a month later after a painful series of infections?