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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:42 AM
Original message
Cockburn says "most" Dems in Congress will cheer if neo cons bomb Tehran


http://counterpunch.com/


CounterPunch Diary
Will the US Really Bomb Iran?

-long snip of knowns and probables leading to a yes-

last paragraph:

The peace movement had better pull itself together, remembering that should the bombs start to fall on Tehran, most of the Democrats in Congress will be on their feet, cheering.
----------------------


this statement needs exploring


(and, PLEASE, no comments on the pros and cons of Counterpunch. that is not what this thread is about)


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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. pull itself together
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 11:46 AM by seemslikeadream
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Is that girl who got bulldozed in Israel another good example?
nt
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. DON'T YOU DARE PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Nononononono
That wasn't meant as an insult. For some odd reason looking at the tiennemin pics made me think of that girl who almost did the same thing. Just comparing the 2. No need to get insulted.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. sorry maybe you didn't know that's a very touchy subject
when in the context of counterpunch :hi:
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Not a problem
I only knew a lil about what happened, no details. Peace?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
55. sure
now you see what I mean?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. delete
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 12:02 PM by seemslikeadream
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. So you post drivel and then make the rules...
What does that make you?
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. the rule keeper of my thread?
nt
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
73. It's not your thread...
it's only your original post.

Sid

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. just who's trying tho make the rules around here?
and who's trying to get this thread locked?
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. No one's going to stop this madness, I am convinced. I'll take a compromise
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 11:50 AM by wienerdoggie
on Iraq, out of necessity, but someone should be speaking forcefully about preventing war with Iran and putting together the legislation to require Congressional approval before bombs-away (what Nancy stripped out of the supplemental last spring). There is a dearth of true, persuasive Dem leaders in Congress right now, and the Repugs who dared to speak out and sided with us are giving up and calling it quits. Looking pretty hopeless.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Nader was right - there is no difference - he should have said 'when it
comes to killing and the profits of war'.
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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
89. No Nader was NOT RIGHT
then - because if Al Gore had been inaugurated as he should have been we would have NEVER invaded Iraq and truthfully I don't think 9/11 would have happened because Al Gore would have taken the Aug 6th PDB seriously and most likely stopped it - or at least tried - instead of going fishing or clearing brush or whatever that freak did...

Nader wasn't right then - but for TOO MANY Congressional Dems he might be right now.....and it is heart breaking
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Oakland Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #89
97. Saw Nader on Bill Maher last week...
He never ceases to amaze me how right he is. Always has been. Biggest mistake he made
was not supporting Gore. Other than that, the guy is my hero even if he is pretty obstinate in his old age. The Democrats we have could learn a lesson or 20 from this guy.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. We've been working on stopping it
...for months now.

The grass/netroots needs to yell louder.
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pork medley Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
66. oh please
there is no "netroots" - only a bunch of people posting on a message board

thats really such a silly term, "netroots" - it conveys the complete ineffectuality and ideological bankruptcy of the american left, the precious middle class activists, who typically suffer from a "narcissism of the lost cause" - the politics not of responsibility (i.e., action) but of conviction (i.e. involving oneself in "netroots" or silly demonstrations, and constantly hammering away again and again to people that politics begins and ends in the voting booth), a dogged refusal to address the root cause of the situation in the middle east, to address the crushing misery that is daily life for that 90% of the population that earns less than $60K a year, to find common cause with working people (i.e., THE SHEEPLE, a very popular description here of the unenlightened slobs you tirelessly try to uplift), or to examine the world from any other perspective than that of the ruling class

take a look at Latest Breaking News, take a look at all the bad news on the first page. the world is one great horror show. life is a curse for most of the human race. also the cost of iPhones was recently slashed by $200. the netroots must start typing in all-caps to get through to our leaders, the netroots feels it has a moral duty to help stop the war, the netroots does not exist, only helpless atomised people on their computers reinforcing each others feelings of helplessness and alienation

it's just ridiculous, trying to pass off posting on a messageboard as engaging in "politics". i dont know why people here even bother, really
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #66
92. As Mike Malloy is Fond Of Saying:
" Oh, Bat sqeeze!"
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. AIPAC Demands That We Go to War Against Iran
It seems likely that they also have access to all of the NSA blackmail material.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. AIPAC and the Dominionists
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. That's not a statement, that's an opinion
And Alexander Cockburn is a Democrat-hating jackass.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. I think most of us can agree on that much
I've nothing to contribute to this thread other than to call Alex Cock-burn an asshole.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. A smart move for the peace movement would be to get
Peacetrain onto the one eyed monster in the living rooms of the majority of American households. I am sure most people see burning flags and effigies only when thinking of Tehran. I am sure there is enough money out there somewhere in Hollywood to get the first link onto the tube... say we could replace a few Headon commercials with it and see how sentiments change.

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7iLPnDCQ1g

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. I believe he is right
and dem candidates looking to appear "strong on terra" will be as well. Here is Hil's AIPAC speech where she talks about the "threat" of Iran to Israel/US interests...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5ulGiPp0LQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsabbah%2Ebiz%2Fmt%2Farchives%2F2007%2F09%2F03%2Fhillary%2Dclinton%2Dat%2Daipac%2Dbomb%2Diran%2F

It bis very disturbing that so many in congress take AIPAC's hard line approach to the mideast. :(
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. Ending the War in 2009 by that liberal hating Tom Hayden
:sarcasm:


Ending the War in 2009
By Tom Hayden

Let me tell you what the supporters of endless occupation are worried about. A Washington think tank, the Center for a New American Security, whose board includes Madeline Albright, Lockheed Martin, and Raytheon recently warned that:

"The transition from President Bush is getting more and more problematic as the American people continue to lose confidence in the Iraq War and step up their pressure on candidates from both parties. If no bipartisan consensus is reached before the Democratic and Republican primaries, the next president will likely be elected principally on a 'get out of Iraq' platform. The political space to do otherwise is shrinking by the day."

Contrary to their worries, I thought: What a great prospect, that the American people through the democratic process can force the end of this war, can discredit the neo-conservatives agenda, can defeat the Bush-Cheney legacy, can rebuke hawkish mentality in both parties, and can drive the discussion of our future. I have written Ending the War in Iraq to hasten this possibility.

The conventional thinking that led us into quagmire is the same conventional thinking that says today that while it was a mistake to invade in 2003 it would be a bigger mistake to ever leave. These are not just White House flacks or Bush administration dead-enders, but friends we respect such as James Fallows has written –

"I have come to this sobering conclusion. The United States can best train Iraqis, and therefore best help itself leave Iraq, only by making a long-term commitment to stay."

Too many are governed by the paradigm that we can never “stand down” until the Iraqis themselves "stand up", that we have to fight the insurgency to create space for the Iraqi government to become stable enough to secure itself, and only then can we leave.

The truth being denied is that we have funded, equipped, and trained a Frankenstein monster, and now multiple frankensteins, and they are indeed standing up. In any other conflict, the Iraqi regime and security forces would be called a police state. Yet we remain in denial because the truth would undermine the war’s very rationale. Even today, a prestigious military commission headed by General Jones reports that the Iraqi police force is hopelessly sectarian and should be scrapped. The media denial is evident in the coverage: the ninth paragraph on page 8 of the New York Times, the 25th paragraph on page 8 of the LA Times.

This is not new news. The Baker-Hamilton report last year said that the Iraqi police "routinely engage in sectarian violence, including the unnecessary detention, torture and targeted execution of Sunni Arab civilians."

The illusion is that the sectarian militias are outside the Iraqi state and must be reined in, when the reality is that the biggest militias are inside the interior ministry, inside the army, police and secret prisons, particularly the Badr Brigade which belongs to SCIRI, the dominant party in the ruling coalition we put in power. Nineteen billion of our tax dollars have been spent on building the Iraqi security system.

It gets worse. As encouraged by Gen. Petraeus a few years ago, at least 190,000 American-made AK-47s and 370,000 small arms sent Iraq are unaccounted for, most of them without serial numbers. This mass distribution of weapons was deliberate, not accidental, according to the GAO and Special Inspector General.

The illusion is that we are preventing a sectarian civil war when the reality is that, in the best British tradition, we have been fomenting and feeding a civil war which will fragment, subdivide and eliminate the basis of Arab nationalism in Iraq.

The intellectual proponent of this division is Stephen Biddle of the Council on Foreign Relations, an on-the-ground adviser to Gen. Petraeus. Biddle writes that the US should support both sides in the civil war. We should arm the Sunnis to gain leverage against the very Shi’a we put in power, and we should increase the Shi’a ability to create mass violence as an incentive for the Sunnis to compromise on their demand to end the occupation. This was written in Foreign Affairs magazine in 2006.

The much-touted Petreaus plan to further divide Iraq by helping Sunnis fight other Sunnis in Anbar and Diyala provinces is little more than Kit Carson’s plan to arm the Ute mercenaries against the Navajo over a century ago. I make the comparison because the Sunni fighters on the US payroll are even called the “Kit Carson Scouts.”

All this is against current law, the Leahy Amendment of 1997 which expressly forbids US military assistance to governments or security forces that are known to be human rights violators. Why is this provision being ignored? Is it like the claim that violence is going down in parts of Baghdad, because there are fewer people for the death squads to kill. Will a day come when there will be no more human rights violations because there will be no more Iraqis with human rights to violate?

Fortunately, a few members of Congress – Maxine Waters, Barbara Lee, Lynn Woolsey – and one liberal think tank, the Center for American Progress, want to stop our taxes going for torture. Their HR 3134, just introduced, would require the end of all funding of the Iraqi army and police forces unless expressly approved by a vote of Congress. We need the media and groups like the clergy and the ACLU to pay attention to this developing issue. Americans may be uneasy about immediately cutting off funding for American troops in the field, but would be opposed to taxes going for secret torture chambers and ethnic cleansing.

There is a gaping hole in the major peace proposals from Baker-Hamilton to Feingold-Reid to Clinton and Obama. All the discussion is about withdrawing combat troops while leaving thousands of American troops as trainers and advisers to these feuding sectarian and dysfunctional Iraqi security forces. This is not a recipe for ending the war, but for turning it into a low-visibility, lower-casualty conflict like Afghanistan.

Partial troop reducaions may diminish public attention during the election year – that will be partly up to us – but are unlikely to alter the course of the war. It is hard to imagine fewer American troops, embedded as trainers and secret commandos, succeeding militarily where 162,000 could not.

So what’s the answer? In the debate on Capitol Hill, I favor setting a withdrawal deadline, which is the only way to begin the shift away from a military model to a conflict resolution model. But a deadline is not enough. I interviewed former CIA director John Deutch about a rational exit plan, and he stressed two essentials: <1> that the US has to decide to withdraw, which it has not, and <2> he stressed diplomacy with Iran, which he called the only country that could cause trouble during our withdrawal. He was implying negotiations with Iran to obtain what Richard Nixon once called a "decent interval" for the US to leave Vietnam.

We should call for a shift from warmaking to peacemaking through a diplomatic offensive, declaring a firm intention to withdraw all American troops and bases on a one-year timetable, which would create an immediate incentive for engagement on the part of Iran, Syria, the Arab League, the Europeans, Russians and Chinese, the UN. No one has an interest in joining the US in the occupation; everyone has a interest in minimizing a power vacuum as we leave. The issues to be resolved will be humanitarian assistance to 3-4 million refugees, economic reconstruction, and protection of all Iraqis from unrestrained vendettas. America should offer to assist by appointing a peace envoy and offering billions in reconstruction. The horrific damage cannot be undone but can be contained and mitigated.

Of course our government is following the absolute opposite course from that proposed by Deutch, and even has drawn up contingency plans for a possible escalation to Iran. Many of the neo-conservatives continue to push, as in Vietnam, for escalation as the solution to quagmire.

It is here that the force of public opinion really matters in the coming year, and election year when public opinion becomes most important to decision-makers.

I find that the peace movement has been misunderstood and underestimated these past five years.

This is partly because we are governed by past image of peace movements as strictly outside protests in the streets as during Vietnam. But those were times of deep exclusion, when many could not vote and were structurally outside the institutions. The image of a defiant draft-card burner or bleeding demonstrator remains in our heads when in reality the typical resister today is an outraged blogger.

Not that we haven’t been in the streets. On nine occasions, more than 100,000 people have assembled, several times in numbers closer to 500,000.

Nearly 200 city councils and legislatures have voted to oppose the war.

Public opinion came to view Iraq as a mistake more rapidly that the public did during Vietnam, according to Gallup surveys.

Cindy Sheehan and other military families have neutralized the old claims that the peace movement is against the troops.

Howard Dean shocked the Democratic Party when he became the Eugene McCarthy of 2003.

Michael Moore shocked everyone when his Farenheit set unprecedented box office records in 2004.

Robert Greeenwald’s videos and YouTube spots reach hundreds of thousands of people.

Fifty thousand people listen to Amy Goodman’s and Juan Gonzales "War and Peace Report" every morning in LA.

The Dixie Chicks stood their ground in Texas, defeated blacklisting, and still aren’t ready to make nice.

Members of MoveOn.org contributed $180 million to candidates in 2003-2004.

The 2004 election was the first in our history when the American voters turned out a Congressional majority over a war in progress.

Whether impeachment happens or not, the Bush Administration is being impeached in installments – Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Libby, Gonzales – they have failed to make Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame the Daniel Ellsbergs of this war.

The peace movement is suffering from success, not failure. There can be an identity crisis when marginalized people suddenly find themselves in the majority, but that is where we are.

I can hear some of you asking, How can we consider ourselves successful when Iraqis and Americans are dying every minute, when the juggernaut continues, when, when the system that produced Iraq is gearing up for Iran? All I can ask is that you not let the suffering break you, not let the suffering push you down ineffective roads, but turn the pain into a controlled and strategic rage that creates ripple effects towards justice.

The year 2009 will be decisive. This week comes the debate over the surge. Next week the president’s recommendations. Then the elusive search among the politicians for bipartisan consensus. Then the appropriations bill, then the new request for next year’s war funding, then the presidential primaries, all of that in the next six months. Then in April, comes the projected breaking point for the armed forces, when some troop withdrawals will have to begin or tours of duty extended to intolerable lengths. Then the political conventions in the protest-friendly cities of Denver and Minneapolis, and then the campaign itself.

Step by step, we all need to ensure that ending the war is the issue on which the elections turn.

Activists need to apply people pressure to the pillars of the policy: the pillars of public opinion, the pillar of budget funding, the pillar of military recruitment, the pillar of international support. The keys are simple.. Build the memberships of our local campaigns. Persuade more voters to demand rapid withdrawal as a condition of their support. Meet and confront military recruiters before they take more of our children. Reach our and form coalitions for a progressive budget. Whatever the candidates say, the war in Iraq cannot be sustained as these pillars – voter support, infinite funding, ample troops and reserves - continue to crumble and fall. As the costs, including the costs of protest and a persistent public opinion, finally outweigh the perceived benefits, I believe the cold and rational elements of the establishment will decide to cut their losses.

Big donors – those who contribute many millions to the so-called 527 independent issue committees – can make a huge difference in ending the war this time instead of avoiding the issue as they did in 2004. This year the independent committees can fund television, radio, and grass-roots campaigns to force the issue in targeted precincts all across the country. There is the potential of having the best-funded peace movement in our history.

A peace movement that can make a real difference by door-knocking and phone calls to impact close elections, protests against recruiters trying to take our children, and building coalitions with all the groups like teachers and health care workers whose needs are ignored by the $200 million per day that goes to war.

A peace movement that not only demands but deserves an alliance with environmentalists because the center of the fight against global warming is the war over the oil fields of the Middle East.

A peace movement that demands and deserves an alliance with labor and consumers because the center of the fight for fair trade and against corporate privatization is Iraq where all government protections are being stripped away before the coming of the US and British oil companies.

A peace movement that demands and deserves the support of all believers in democracy because the makers of war and the National Security State are the greatest threat to our civil liberties today.

And finally, a peace movement that encourages the lessons of this war in order to prevent future undemocratic aggressions whether in the Middle East or Venezuela.

Iraq is the focal point for confronting the great issues of our future. The fight is on. As Bobby Sands, the Irish hunger striker used to say, everyone has a part to play, and our reward will be seen in the smiles of the children.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. deleted ---
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 12:18 PM by defendandprotect
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. Is there a bigger asshole than Cockburn
He gives yellow journalism a bad name.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. yea speaking the truth - always a bad thing to do
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 12:03 PM by seemslikeadream
how long do you want this war to continue?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. In your own words
HOW DARE YOU? I want the war to end immediately. duh.

Truth, that asshole wouldn't know the truth if it smacked him upside the head. He's written dozens of lies. And thousands of pieces filled with crappy inuendo or bullshit that can't be proven or disproven. How the fuck does he know most dems in congress would cheer an attack on Iran? He doesn't.

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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. Of couse there will be some that do not, but sadly the messenger
has told the truth.

We are in a very bad situation. The report on the surge being rewritten as we speak, will cement in the revisionist history being penned that the surge is a sucess. With a more than compliant MSM, the GAO report will be lost in the babble and screeching of the republicans.

The neocons play for keeps, and one of the lessons learned among many is that a non-draft war can be waged forever. On NPR a couple of weeks ago, some neocon dipshit was posing the solutions to not drafting by contract armies that would be promised citizenship. No real comments of incredible disbeief that such insanity was actually spoken on the airwaves by the interviewer.

Of course we will have our guys stand up and cheer. There may be more than people here realize. The neocons know that the Vietnam history has been almost completely turned on it's head to their position; the evil liberals bugged out and kept us from winning. In this case without a draft, they know that the true realities of this national horror show will never be visited upon the majority of the populace by "greetings" letters and lottery drawings. They know that they can spin whatever they want, and the spin will be to their goals. It's simple, no draft, no attention span.

So yes, sadly, when we do bomb Iran, we will have our guys jump on the band wagon as last time, albeit may an inkling less. It's not like they have a history of doing anything to stop this insanity. The last thing they want is to be known as the guys that lost Iraq, and Iran, now that the younger people in the nation belive that Vietnam was lost by liberals. Our candidates are in quite a bad place, and this has been planned that way. Watch for the ratcheting up of the propganda against our candidates for not being strong on the war. We are far from over in this mess, and the republicans are playing for keeps as usual, and timing is on their side. All of our candidates will be singing a different tune when we bomb Iraq, and the republicans know it. Then it will be who is more capable of continuing the war; a republican that always was for it, or a Democrat that voted for it in Iraq, then said they made a mistake, then when Iran is bombed, was for it, then later will say it is a mistake.

No amount of spin or Hillaryism or Obama talk, or anything approaching that will solve this mess, and the republicans know it, and are going to ram it down our throats.

Coming to TV screens everywhere....
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Disagree with, well, quite a bit
First of all, we don't even know that an attack on Iran will take place. Yes, I worry about it happening. No, we can't know, at this juncture, that it will happen. So try, at least, to write, if instead of when.

As for the prediction that dems would jump on the bandwagon if we bomb Iran, I suppose that depends, but in case you forgot, the majority of the dems in the House and 23 Senators didn't get on the Iraq war bandwagon.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yes, I remember all our guys yelling that when we invaded....
as I remember, it was a love fest.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. You have a distorted memory.
Yes, of course most dems, even those who voted against it, and made passionate and cogent arguments against going to war, mouthed polite platitudes of support once the invasion was launched. Some never stopped speaking out. That hardly makes it a lovefest. Their votes against the war speak to that. If there were so gung-ho for war, why the fuck did they vote against it.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
63. This a.m. on CNN Blitzer asked Barbara Boxer if she was worried about Weak on Defense charges
against Democrats. The meme was there. Dems have been weak on defense in the past (the media liars say) and every Democrat is asked that as a preface to any interview.

Yep, it's already started and since CNN has had the drumbeat for war with Iran going for months now...what you say is correct as is what Cockburn says...no matter how many people try to kill the messengers. The truth of it is what those of us here who've watched it, know. We didn't need Cockburn to tell us. Actions speak louder than words...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. We didn't need Cockburn to tell us
but he did and some folks want to kill the messenger for something else
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. Yes was agreeing with you and defending his statement....n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. Can you please link to those lies?
Thanks
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. What lies would those be?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Well...
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 01:09 PM by LeftishBrit
I don't know whether he literally tells 'lies'; he may believe what he says.

But:

He has repeatedly denied that humans are responsible for global warming.

He has blamed 'Jewish groups' for various sins, ranging from pressing for the war in Iraq, to getting 'brave' black politicians defeated (by other black politicians) for speaking out against Israel.

He has described Gerald Ford as 'America's greatest president' (I am probably more sympathetic to Ford than 90% of people on DU; but 'greatest president'? - come on!)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Boy I must be psychic
How did I know you would show up and type the words Jewish and Israel
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Well, maybe you're psychic enough to realize...
that there are actually some posters on liberal boards who object to websites and authors that indulge in propaganda against ANY ethnic group.

Amazing, I know, but nevertheless it's true.

And also some posters on liberal boards who don't regard global warming denial as the TRUTH!!! Perhaps that's absolutely amazing again.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Any ethic group?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Yes.
Including the Bosnian Muslims, whom Cockburn has also trashed, while defending Milosevic.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I guess Palestinians slipped your mind?
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 01:31 PM by seemslikeadream
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. They didn't slip my mind; they're just one of the relatively few groups that Cockburn hasn't trashed
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 01:45 PM by LeftishBrit
(at least to my knowledge).

But I don't go for journalists who hate Palestinians, either - the disgustingly right-wing British journalist Melanie Phillips comes to mind here. I don't quite see why if you object to blaming Jews for everything, it's assumed that you must want to blame Palestinians for everything. That sounds like Bush-logic: "if you don't support the Republicans, you must support the terrorists". And Cockburn was directly blaming AMERICAN (not Israeli) Jews in the examples that I gave.

But he doesn't confine himself to Jews: he was also prepared to attack Bosnians.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. DON'T YOU DARE PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH
HAVE YOU BEEN FOLLOWING ME AROUND 24/7 TO SEE IF I HAVE BEEN OBJECTING TO BLAMING THE JEWS FOR EVERYTHING?

DON'T MAKE THIS ABOUT ME SIR
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I WAS TALKING ABOUT COCKBURN, NOT YOU!!!!!!!
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 01:50 PM by LeftishBrit
For God's sake!!!!!

You seemed to imply that if I attacked a journalist (Cockburn) for anti-Jewish remarks, I would defend one for anti-Palestinian remarks. I pointed out that I don't defend either. Unless you are Cockburn in disguise, I don't know how you came to think I was talking about YOU!!!
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. So Cockburn blames the Jews for everything?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Not everything, but quite a lot of things.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. and thus the reason for you to be in this thread, maybe?
It really doesn't have anything to do with Dems in congress, or am I wrong about that?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. I don't see that I have to justify being on ANY thread...
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 02:03 PM by LeftishBrit
(it's getting to look like you might be the one following *me* around!)

But see post 52.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. sweetie I was here in this thread before you
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 02:14 PM by seemslikeadream
and I do notice certain folks when they talk about me and other DUdummies and PIgstys elsewhere
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. deleted (posted in wrong place)
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 02:17 PM by LeftishBrit
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. I didn't say you but if you don't know that folks are using your posts
to justify their agenda there's nothing I can do about that. And I can't post a link here cause it is banned
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Whose agenda?
Anyway, I'm not in control of who uses what posts from DU. Some right-wing blogger once referred to me as 'moonbat of the week'. As long as DU is in the public domain, anyone can use them.

But I would be VERY surprised if anyone has ever mentioned my posts in connection with anything about *you*, as I think this is the first time we've even had a 'discussion' on DU.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Where have I talked about you????
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 02:18 PM by LeftishBrit
I don't even remember arguing with you on another thread; but maybe I did. But I definitely haven't been talking about you anywhere else that I can think of. (Unless you really *are* Cockburn!)

And I would never refer to DU members as "DUmmies"!
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. and I am truly sorry if you did not know this
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 02:22 PM by seemslikeadream
ask Behind the Aegis he can tell you
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #72
93. I have explained it to LB.
She now understands.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Who cares who he is? He in this instance says something that is the obvious.
How will our leaders deal with this? Anyone?

You can only use the "I was for it, then against it" argument so many times.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. Posts 24 and 30 in this thread. n/t
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. speaking the truth. Is that what he does? Always?
"And as late as October 2000, The Nation is still printing this political porn, courtesy of Alexander Cockburn. To remember the way you were served by this crew, let’s revisit this crackpot’s sad musings. By the way, he’s a warming denier:

COCKBURN (10/16/00): What suppressed psychic tumult drives (Gore) to those stretchers that litter his career, the lies large and small about his life and achievements? You'd think that a man exposed to as much public derision as was Gore after claiming he and Tipper were the model for the couple in Love Story, or after saying he'd invented the Internet, would by now be more prudent in his vauntings. But no. Just as a klepto's fingers inevitably stray toward the cash register, so too does Gore persist in his fabrications.

“Disgraceful” doesn’t do justice here. At any rate, thanks to public crackpots like Cockburn–thanks to the cowardice of those who kept silent–the “klepto” with the “psychic tumult” and “the lies large and small” didn’t go to the White House. George W. Bush went there instead. Soon, we were off to Iraq."

http://www.dailyhowler.com/index.shtml

I was a big fan of Counterpunch for about a year - from December 2002 until October 2003 or so. Once the Democratic primary got started, they seemed to spend alot of their time 'punching' Democrats. Sometimes it is fair to 'punch' or bash Democrats. Other times, supposed people on the 'left' repeat alot of rightwing spin points and pick at nits. While Gore's small errors on inconsistencies were pored over - the bald faced lies of Bush are ignored.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. It's not about him. This is the way it is. Pose your war end scenario with the election coming up.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
87. Have you posted a worse ad hominem attack before?
What is your problem with Alexander Cockburn? Please explain with examples and links.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #87
94. There are links in this thread.
find 'em. And yeah, Cockburn is an asshole. That are tons of attacks every day here on DU calling public figures, cowards, fuckers, assholes and others. You don't consider it politically correct to call Cockburn as asshole, and I don't much care. He trashed Gore in 2000. He told lies about him. It looked like he was actively working to get gwb in office. You can have the creep.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
91. Yes - those who call him an asshole for expressing his opinion.
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 10:59 PM by Zhade
NT!

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. You mean just like the last time we all supported bunkerboy after 911?
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 12:11 PM by TankLV
We, I must have been the only one that HATED bush* even more after that and was EVEN MORE mad that HE was in Al Gore's House...

No sell - I will NEVER in any way shape or form, support or cheer or say anything good about a WAR CRIMINAL...even if I'm the ONLY ONE in the entire country...

Sorry to burst your bubble...

These nazi's must have wet dreams constantly imagining this shit and all these scenerios...
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Purveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. Unfortunately, he is right... eom
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
24. Yeah, Cockburn is a truthteller
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
27. Would Democrats cheer -- ???? -- ????
Cockburn is has made a few comments about the anti-war movement being in disarray --
I don't think so --
I think that the more the neo-cons use force, the more the anti-war movement will change --
but I think it is only strengthening --

Re Democrats in Congress and bombing ---

Do they need another war -- ???

Are there that many neo-con Democrats -- ???

Or, is the Democratic leadership now neo-con -- ???

Basically, I think when you say "BOMB" you are going to try to avoid moving troops in.
We don't have troops --
We have a broken military --

A "BOMB" to create interest in renewing the draft -- ???

And -- financially -- not only is our Treasury busted but the markets are reflecting fear of the corrupt economy that has been put in place.

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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. thank you. many questions to ponder. but no time to ponder!


and even less power to act
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. Then we need to replace them.
Pure and simple.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Based on the word of Cockburn?
Sheesh.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. no based on THEIR behavior
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
81. No, if they vote to authorize the bombing of Tehran.
If Congress goes for another war, I say we get rid of them.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #81
95. If that happened, but it won't.
bush has no intention of going to Congress if he plans to bomb Iran. He does not need to. The War Powers Act of 1973 and the Constitution, is what he'll use if he does it. He knows he doesn't stand a chance of getting Congress to vote for bombing Iran.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #95
98. He needs them to pay for it, though.
That'll be the kicker.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. yes, if, after the bombing, there is an after

nt
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
37. Since when was Cockburn an expert on Dems in Congress?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. I don't know How long has Noam Chomsky?
Weigh it all up, and you'd be foolish to bet that an attack on Iran won't happen. I knew Noam Chomsky used to be dubious about the likelihood of a U.S. attack and emailed him last week to ask if he is still of that opinion. Here's his answer.

Yes, I was quite sceptical. Less so over the years. They're desperate. Everything they touch is in ruins. They're even in danger of losing control over Middle Eastern oil -- to China, the topic that's rarely discussed but is on every planner or corporation exec's mind, if they're sane. Iran already has observer status at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization -- from which the US was pointedly excluded. Chinese trade with Saudi Arabia, even military sales, is growing fast. With the Bush administration in danger of losing Shiite Iraq, where most of the oil is (and most Saudi oil in regions with a harshly oppressed Shiite population), they may be in real trouble.

Under these circumstances, they're unpredictable. They might go for broke, and hope they can salvage something from the wreckage. If they do bomb, I suspect it will be accompanied by a ground assault in Khuzestan, near the Gulf, where the oil is (and an Arab population -- there already is an Ahwazi liberation front, probably organized by the CIA, which the US can "defend" from the evil Persians), and then they can bomb the rest of the country to rubble. And show who's boss
http://counterpunch.com/
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
47. Cockburn gets a lot wrong,
but he got this right.

I don't know how anyone could imagine these Democrats would do anything else.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Well there ya go
:hi:

A voice of sanity
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
88. to the point
regardless of who said it, you are correct. Think about it folks!
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
52. For those concerned about the issue...
here's a petition one can sign (organized by Wes Clark, who is much more reliable than Cockburn)

http://www.stopiranwar.com/

I've posted about it elsewhere too.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
57. Yes, they will.. cause they're like
OIL Zombies and ya can't reason them. Same reason they don't want to get outta Iraq.

No Fucking Diplomacy..ya got that? We can't talk..ya got that?
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DJKDJKDJK Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
58. SHADOW GOVERNMENT
SHADOW GOVERNMENT

How long does it take for you people to see that MLK Jr. Was right? SHADOW GOVERNMENT.

Content of Character and what you do...not what dumbass letter is NEXT to your name.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
75. Whatever issues we have with dems (which are plenty). Republicans gotta go....
... We can rebuild the party after that. The likelihood it's hillary for the nominee but those paying attention shoudl vote kucinich even if it doesn't win him the candidacy it states where the people feel america should go. I'd of originally liked to see obama get it but he leaves me with doubts. On all the issues Kucinich seems to have the right solution from all I can see.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. There may not be much left if we wait that long
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TexasLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
78. scary article
The oil companies like a crisis that sends up the price of their commodity. The Chinese are a prudent lot and don't want to rock the world economy. Politically, both they and Russia would like to see the US compound the disaster in Iraq and get into a long-term mess in Iran. Israel wants an attack on Iran, and the Israel lobby calls the shots in US foreign policy. What Israel wants, Israel gets. The US peace movement is in disarray, and sizable chunks of it would be delighted to see bombs shower down on the woman-hating ayatollahs and Ahmadinejad, the holocaust denier.

Amid the disaster of their Middle Eastern strategy Bush and his advisors may hype themselves into one last desperate throw, emboldened by the fact that the selling of the surge has been a success even though all the Democrats need to do is cite the UN, which says the number of Iraqis fleeing their homes has gone from 50,000 to 60,000 a month. Or quote Associated Press which counted 1,809 Iraqi civilians killed in August, compared with 1,760 in July. The Sunni split in Anbar province is not one likely to be replicated in Baghdad or elsewhere and anyway had nothing to do with the hike in US troop levels. Bush didn't dare go to Baghdad.

Weigh it all up, and you'd be foolish to bet that an attack on Iran won't happen.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
79. Hands-off the People of Iran
We recognise that there is an urgent need to establish a principled solidarity campaign with the people of Iran. The contradictions between the interests of the neo-conservatives in power in the USA and the defenders of the rule of capital in the Islamic Republic has entered a dangerous new phase.

US imperialism and its allies are intent on regime change from above and are seriously considering options to impose this - sanctions, diplomatic pressure, limited strikes or perhaps bombing the country back to the stone age.

In Iran, the theocracy is using the international outcry against its nuclear weapons programme to divert attention away from the country's endemic crisis, deflect popular anger onto foreign enemies and thus prolong its reactionary rule.

The pretext of external threats has been cynically used to justify increased internal repression. The regime's security apparatus has been unleashed on its political opponents, workers, women and youth. The rising tide of daily working class anti-capitalist struggles has been met with arrests, the ratification of new anti-labour laws and sweeping privatisations. Under the new Iranian government, military-fascist organisations are gaining political and military strength, posing an ominous threat to the working class and democratic opposition.

More: http://www.hopoi.org/
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. The IAEA says they have no nuclear weapons program.
Hands OFF Iran.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. The Iranian government is indefensible
but solidarity with Iran's people is not.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
80. It is time to put bodies againt the gears
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 04:28 PM by seemslikeadream
Democracy Now: American Fascists Pt. 1

Democracy Now: American Fascists Pt. 2

Chris Hedges's new book examines how Christian dominionists are seeking absolute power and a Christian state. According to Hedges, the movement bears a strong resemblance to the young fascist movements in Italy and Germany in the 1920s and '30s. Hedges is the former New York Times Middle East bureau chief and author of "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning."
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
83. You can't honestly evaluate anything Counterpunch says without evaluating
their history. Cockburn is a known liar so I honestly don't believe a word he says.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
85. PLEASE, no comments on the pros and cons of Counterpunch. that is not what this thread is about
Sorry donsu, I guess it was just too much to ask
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #85
96. No comments about the source?
Bwahaha. You just con't want what you believe, challenged. Pathetic.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
86. Dr. Mengels Coburn is not a credible source of information...
on the Democrats.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
90. I wouldn't be surprised if they made noises about it, but enabled it afterward.
That's their job these days, apparently - pretend to be an opposition party, then bow to the will of ultraconservative criminals.

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