Another of my weird thoughts

[Mythsaje]

I was talking to my dad the other day and we were talking about whales. We don't really know if they're sentient or not, but it's possible. Orca society is remarkably complex, for an example. Now, because they're not tool-users, it would be a different kind of sentience than we possess.

A thought that has occurred to me before, but struck me again, is wondering "what if they're swimming around down there doing complex mathematical equations in their big brains." They think in 3 dimensions in a way that we cannot because of the environment through which they move. What if they hold the keys to some of our greatest mysteries and we'll never know it because we can't help but be stupid and short-sighted enough to be killing them off?

I know this sounds outlandish, but I really wonder about things like this. What WOULD a sentient creature that wasn't a tool user think about? Moral philosophy? It's interesting that there are two separate cultures among the orcas--one that only eats fish and another that eats mammals AND fish. The two don't intermingle, though they will acknowledge one another in passing. THAT strikes me as a moral decision, but what do I know?

I'm fascinated by animal intelligence anyway. I wonder about the corvids, and other intelligent birds as well. My dad thinks the crows have a group mind. I don't think that's likely. Their intelligence is easily measured, but something like that...no evidence exists to support it.

Dogs are pretty intelligent too. Not quite as advanced as cetaceans or corvids, but anyone who has taken the time to study and communicate with dogs on a regular basis can see it. Some cats as well. Not all, by a long shot. But some. Polydactil (six or seven or eight-toed) cats seem more intelligent.

Like I said, weird thoughts in the middle of the night. But interesting to discuss. Too serious, I think, for the Lounge, but I figured that this time of night GD would be good enough.

Any thoughts from anyone?

Is it any surprise to anyone I'm a speculative fiction author?

[JeffR]

1. No surprise at all :)

and I'm just about to collapse into bed.

But I agree with your dad: crows do have a group mind, and pretty remarkable individuals minds as well. So do dogs, at least the dogs we've been priveleged to share our home with. I'll even go so far as to extend this to cats, though I'm not a real booster of the many cats we've had - or who have had us - over the years.

We tend to view the intelligence of these animals through anthropomorphic terms, and I think we make a logical mistake by doing so. Some of these species are as old or older than we are, and the real nature of their intellects is given only to them to really understand. All we can do is estimate.

This is a fascinating topic, and I wish I could keep my eyes open. I hope there'll be a lot of discussion on this thread, because the subject enthralls me.

[Mythsaje]

3. We've got two very amazing cats...

One of them is probably the politest male cats I've ever met. A true gentleman kitty. He doesn't meow so much as squeak and trill in what sounds as though he's attempting to speak. Our new kitten seems pretty sharp too.

I believe in treating dogs like dogs. They're intelligent creatures that AREN'T humans. They have their own culture and a human household that includes dogs has to create a space for those cultures to overlap. Most of the problems people have with dogs stems from the fact that there's no concerted effort to understand what makes dogs tick. I commend the Dog Whisperer guy because he gets it, though I also get the feeling he underestimates their intelligence a little.

One of the memes that cracks me up is the idea that dogs quickly forget when they've done something wrong. I've seen direct evidence to the contrary...a dog that skulked around for months as we slowly repaired something he'd done wrong. And he'd never even been punished for it because it was due as much, if not more, to human error than the dog's.

I don't know about the group mind thing. I suppose it's possible, but :shrug: there's no way to prove it either way.

[lligrd]

7. I've Found That All Dogs, Cats Or People For That Matter

ask is that they be treated properly. And yes, animals like people, must be taught that they need to show their appreciation of being treated properly by doing the same.

[MissHoneychurch]

2. Ever heard of this novel?

http://www.amazon.com/Swarm-Novel-Frank-Schatzing/dp/0060859806/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9866919-5439361?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189413670&sr=8-1

Might be interesting for you to read.

[Mythsaje]

5. It sounds interesting, based on the reviews...n/t

[lligrd]

4. I Have Always Thought That Animals Are More Intelligent Than

we give them credit for. They seem to understand us much better than we understand them.

[tech3149]

6. No matter what hour of the day, you come up with good posts

I think anyone who spends time observing nature, even without scientific background or method, will conclude that every living thing has some level of intelligence. The focus of the intelligence may be broadly different for species based on what they need to process to survive, but they survive because of their ability to analyze the world around them. Self awareness is a much tougher problem to solve. You need to be intelligent to be self-aware but how do you measure sentience? Intelligence is much easier to measure.

As you said, it's late and I think I'll kick back and listen to some good music. One thing that puts you above the rest is that you do speculate. If you can't envision all the possibilities you can't find all thew solutions.

[Ino]

8. I think cats are just as intelligent as dogs...

but not being pack-oriented, they're not as motivated to please. Those cats motivated by food rewards will learn just as quickly as a dog. I had a polydactyl cat (6 full toes on each front foot, and an extra claw on one back foot) -- he didn't seem any more intelligent than my others. (RIP, sweet Sundance)

I watched a crow carefully bury a peanut in my garden. He pecked out a hole, put in the peanut & covered it with dirt clumps & leaves. As soon as he flew off, a blue jay swooped down and stole it.

[BelgianMadCow]

9. "So long,

and thanks for all the fish!"

Statement from the dolphins as they leave earth in "The Hitchhikers's guide to the Galaxy" :-)

Dolphins are I think the only species to have more brain twists (this word may be not be correct, I do not know for sure in english) than we do.

Edit, I saw an intelligence comparison between animals, and if I remember correctly horses are really dumb, then came dogs, next cats and pigs were the smartest of the domesticated animals...

[Mythsaje]

22. Recent testing suggests

that the smartest dogs might have the mental capacity and vocabulary of a 7 year old human child. That's pretty smart.

Yeah, and pigs are smart too. Very smart.

[TZ]

10. Elephants are super smart too..

There is strong evidence that individuals can communicate on a ultrasonically over long distances. They will recognize the bones of dead relatives and handle them with extreme reverence. They even have graveyards where they move these bones too. I think there are a lot of animals on this planet with far more intelligence than we give them credit for.
Another good example is the California Grey Whale. There is plenty of evidence of group information exchange. Back when there was whaling these were extremely aggressive animals who would fight plenty hard when attacked. And would shy from human contact. But after whaling stopped the behavior as a species changed radically. No longer aggressive towards humans and boats (in the past Gray whales were known to occasionally attack unprovoked) they became much more curious and friendly and approachable. There is evidence that this behavior was passed along to new generations because younger whales who were not alive during the periods of whaling started showing this curious behavior too, something that hadn't been seen in the past.

[Mythsaje]

23. I knew that about elephants...

Mourning behavior is very indicative of intelligence.

Interesting about the gray whales--I didn't know that.


My wife and I were talking about the Makah and their whale hunts and she said they should be doing it in the traditional method to allow the whale a chance to win on occasion.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

11. Not so wierd really, check out this '97 article on the dance of

the honeybee

http://discovermagazine.com/1997/nov/quantumhoneybees1263
Quantum Honeybees

>>How could bees of little brain come up with anything as complex as a dance language? The answer could lie not in biology but in six-dimensional math and the bizarre world of quantum mechanics.<<


>>If you draw a line connecting the beehive and the food source, and another line connecting the hive and the spot on the horizon just beneath the sun, the angle formed by the two lines is the same as the angle of the waggling run to the imaginary vertical line. The bees, it appears, are able to triangulate as well as a civil engineer.<<

[KT2000]

12. Whales have adapted

to their environment and I think the closest we will ever come to understanding their intelligence is just to marvel at that perfection.

I don't think we can really conceive of a mind that is not driven by the desire to alter the environment, which is what humans are about.
I bet they have clues to all kinds of mysteries but they are not likely the ones that humans even want to solve.

[dorkulon]

13. I saw somewhere that a large portion of whales and dolphins brains

are devoted to their amazingly detailed sonar sense. This, according to what I recall, throws off their brain/body weight ratio a bit. They're clearly very intelligent animals, but I'm not so sure about their advanced math skills.

An interesting side note: dolphin sonar is said to be as detailed as our sight, but, because flesh and water are of the same density, what they "see" is a bunch of skeletons swimming around. Neat, huh?

[Frank Cannon]

14. Ever see the movie(s) / read the book Solaris?

A main theme of that story is that we can never understand another creature's intelligence because we don't have the first clue about our own selves.

[soothsayer]

15. bingo!

[Sal Minella]

17. Recommend Tarkovsky's original 1972 "Solaris" -- the consciousness or intelligence of

the ocean on the other planet is like no other "intelligence" in films. Great movie.

[laruemtt]

16. i've always assumed animals are more intelligent

than humans. we are the only species that destroys the very environment we need to survive. how smart is that? just because we don't speak or understand their language doesn't make THEM less intelligence than US.

[The2ndWheel]

18. Couple thoughts

"What if they hold the keys to some of our greatest mysteries and we'll never know it because we can't help but be stupid and short-sighted enough to be killing them off?"

What would we do if we knew those mysteries at some point? Maybe we shouldn't know everything. Just speculating.

"Their intelligence is easily measured"

By who's criteria?

"Not quite as advanced"

Again, why do we feel the need to measure it like that? That's where we end up getting in trouble.

All in all, good thoughts.

[Mythsaje]

20. Well, I don't think we'll ever know everything

but I do think our purpose here is to learn everything we can.

[Demeter]

19. Whale DNA Said To Belong to Cow Family Branch

so I think it unlikely that much "thinking" is going on.

If it were, we'd have a lot more stories of ships lost at sea due to whale attacks.


The whole issue of the origins of whales really seems to bend the Creationists out of shape! Try googling "whale DNA evolution" and prepare to be amazed.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1283186

[Mythsaje]

21. If they don't attack us every chance they get, that means they're not intelligent?

That makes no sense.

Whales have been observed mourning for their dead. Like elephants. Cows are stupid, but that's because we WANTED them to be stupid.

[Demeter]

24. It Means They Aren't Predators

If you are looking for intelligence, look for a predator, who has to hunt food instead of foraging.

[Mythsaje]

25. Some of them ARE predators. Course, hunting fish

isn't exactly challenging. Well, it didn't USED to be.