Need help dissuading a 17 year-old from joining the Army

[CPschem]

Hi, I have a co-worker whose 17 year-old nephew is close to signing on to join the Army. Understandably she's very upset about this. Her nephew seems very susceptible to the recruiter's promise of money for college down the road. Please post anything (fact-based) you can that I can forward this woman to share with her nephew before he signs on. Thanks!!

[DFW]

1. You can't attend college if you're dead

That is about as fact-based as I can get on such short notice.

[LibertyorDeath]

92. or brain dead......

[knowbody0]

2. gather pics of the dead and wounded

from both sides...

[ThomWV]

3. I Would Never Try To Talk Someone Out Of Serving Their Country

[acmavm]

5. They wouldn't be serving 'their country'.

[Sweet Pea]

8. Would you rather NOT have an armed forces?

Is that really a realistic goal or belief?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. No, but I'd rather the army was forced to make service a more attractive option.

I would try and talk any loved one of mine out of becoming a deep-sea fisherman or an oil-rig worker or a sewer cleaner.

I am very glad indeed there are people doing those jobs, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't advise anyone with the option of not becoming one of them to take it.

The logical extension is not "no army" but "an army which is forced to make its conditions of service more attractive to recruit" - in this case, probably by non engaging in bad, unnecessary wars, and/or by paying its recruits more.

[acmavm]

27. Anyone joining right now is not serving their country. They're

going over to the Middle East to serve as cannon fodder for corporate America and the corrupt and criminal BFEE.

[AngryOldDem]

57. My conscience would not allow me to look on as someone enlists....

...without knowing what he or she is getting into.

There has to be other options that this kid has not explored. There HAS to be.

I want armed forces that are being deployed legally and responsibly.

[Zhade]

148. That question would have more impact if the military actually protected us.

It doesn't, and hasn't since WWII.

[Greyhound]

152. Yes, or rather the armed citizen force that is what we are supposed to have.

As President Eisenhower told us, a standing military is an expensive admission of failure.

[poverlay]

18. I would never try to talk someone out of dying to make the BFEE richer. J/K - actually I would...

HOWEVER,,, If he's stupid enough to sign those papers, he should be allowed to. It's called evolution.
Sad but true.

[tuckessee]

7. How is murdering Iraqis "serving" the United States? n/t

[ThomWV]

15. Who said anything about murdering Iraquis? The youngster is talking about enlisting in the military

So you not call that service to country?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xatencio81]

63. Wait let me get this straight

So you're saying our military specifically targets Iraqi civilians just like the terrorists over there specifically target civilians? Please. I'm willing to agree that our military does accidentally kill civilians, but to put their M.O. on the same level as Al Queda's M.O. is insane.

[Moochy]

85. Our Military is the bestest ever!

Keep drinking the kool-aid its so refreshing!

[The Doctor.]

95. It's a give'n'go...

Great field tactic... nice catch.

[Chulanowa]

96. The "enemy" is the citizenry of Iraq

You see, they want their country back. So they shoot at the people occupying that country. That would be our armed forces. That makes them our enemy.

Sounds stupid, but that's the way it works. We basically invaded their country so that they could be our bad guys and the excuse for invading their country.

[Xatencio81]

103. I don't recall any reports of that happening

I do recall reports that say most of the "terrorists" committing bombings and attacks are from outside the country ie non-Iraqis. I also recall stories that say Sunni and Shiite tribes are allying with each other to repel Al Quaeda forces. Remember Chucky Schumer saying our military was ineffective and it was the local tribes uniting and NOT our troops that were causing violence in Anbar to go down? I don't recall too many stories though of Iraqi citizenry having any type of fights against our troops. So concerning the notion that the enemy is the Iraqis themselves, I'm pretty sure our soldiers would laugh at you for thinking that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

105. Just take another sip of that Kool-Aid

Obviously you've been talking to someone who's gone through the kind of brainwashing that military recruits get.

Read what's being said in the Canadian and British press about the situation in Iraq.

[Xatencio81]

126. Link me a source then to your claim

All I ask is one source to show that our military has a standard procedure of targeting civilians like the terrorists do. It can't be the extremely small percent of our troops that go bad and take it upon themselves to become murderers. I need some source of link that shows our American military intentionally targets civilians just the Al Qaeda does. I wonder what our troops would think to hear people on this site accusing them of murdering civilians.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

127. I didn't say that the U.S. military deliberately targets civilians

That was someone else.

However, if you believe that the Iraq War is a righteous mission, you need some serious deprogramming.

[wicket]

133. I think you've logged on to the wrong website

:hi:

[Chulanowa]

140. If course not. The "reports" replace "Iraqi citizen" with "terrorist"

Because god knows, we don't want the people back home to get disturbed out of their rah-rah Republicanism with the thought that we're fighting an insurrection rather than a faceless "terrorist" entity that is sneaky like ninja.

You've been around how long, and you don't know how the media war machine works?

[Ravachol]

143. Tribes? Wtf... get your facts straight.

Iraq is a modern country. Well, was. Before the american invasion destroyed most of its infrastructure, that is. While there could be, in very rural areas, a kind of organization you could very vaguely and subjectively describe as a tribe: Iraq is no tribal country. Sunni and Shia Islam are simply two branches of a religion, just like there is a lot of christian denominations.

The religious "extremists" are the most vocal part of the insurgency and one our beloved mainstream medias give the most airtime to; it is done purposely to make the insurgency look like a bunch of religious freaks bent on a jihad. Sunni there, Shiite there and there: every description we hear seem to be based on their religion. The fact is: Iraq was a very secular country under Saddam and today isn't different.

When you hear: "a sunni insurgent was killed today", it is worded this way to make you think they're all religious and acting under some interpretation of Islam. I doubt the guys on the ground took the time to actually ask the "insurgent" the main motive behind his resistance before actually killing him. As far as we know, he was an insurgent. Then again, a lot of civilians deaths are hidden as "insurgent deaths". In instances of urban guerilla warfare, it is very difficult to recognize a civilian from an insurgent, much more in a place like Iraq, where owning private automatic weapons (AKs) is the norm.

As for the "Al-Qaeda Forces", how can you tell? Do you really believe they're out there wearing armbands, just to make sure we can separate them from the rest of the insurgency or maintain an accurate killcount? They have diabolized Al-Qaeda to a point beyond absurdity: they're the new communist/vietcongs and, thus, it's no surprise to see nearly every insurgent killed being labeled an "Al-Qaeda" member. Hell, we even killed Al-Qaeda's #2 like six times.

In general, an insurgency is led by the local population. It is highly possible that there is a number of foreign-born "combatants" present. But they need shelters. They need food and it is impossible for them to be supplied from aboard. They're getting help from the locals, it's evident. 51% of Iraqis consider it "ok" to kill Americans.

But when it comes down to the insurgency, it's mainly iraqis doing the fighting and, if you think the opposite, you're pretty much living in LaLa land, swimming in rivers of Kool-Aid.
Here's a few links to prove you wrong about soldiers fighting foreign fighters in Iraq:
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/05/06/09/168406.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FK20Ak03.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/04/wirq04.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/12/04/ixportal.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0918/p03s02-usfp.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=14799
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/15/1632233

So there.

[OldTymeDem]

146. Wrong 60% of Iraqi's belong to Tribes

Al Queda came into the Anbar province and was initially supported by the tribes. That was until they
started abusing the people by cutting off fingers for smoking, rape, beheadings even of 8 year olds, trying to force marriages, throwing people out of their homes, and the list goes on and on.
The tribal leaders got fed up with them, turned on them and asked the US for help. The rest is history.

[DFW]

13. Serving Bush, Cheney and Halliburton is not "serving his country."

If the commander in chief truly has the national interest
at heart, THEN I could see the argument for "serving our
country." Being turned out as cannon fodder for corporate
interests is serving nothing more than those corporate
interests. Make sure you know whom you're serving before you
offer your life to them.

[Warpy]

17. Under ordinary circumstances, I would agree

However, the CIC is a madman surrounded by madmen and we are involved in a pointless war of attrition whose only discernible benefit is to make government officials and their contributors richer.

I would discourage anyone from joining until this gang is out of office.

[Zywiec]

19. I'm with you TomWV

The support for the military and their overall mission here is overwhelming...

[Arugula Latte]

30. High support for their "overall mission" -- what would that be?

Enriching Halliburton? Helping the Carlisle Group? Propping up GE? Lending a helping hand to Exxon? :shrug:

[Zywiec]

33. Yep, you have the military's overall mission exactly right

although I'm sure the very few veterans on this board might disagree.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. I think the veterans would agree.

At least those with any sense.

[Zywiec]

43. You think the veterans would agree the military's overall mission is

enriching Halliburton, helping the Carlisle Group, propping up GE, and lending a helping hand to Exxon?

I hope not...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Pretty much, yeah.

I've got better respect for vets than you, I guess.

I don't assume they're all stupid.

[Karenina]

46. Sanskrit rises from the dead!

:rofl:

[Moochy]

120. Reading my mind

Maybe Sanskrit's Battle Buddy?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. Meh.

I was thinking more along the lines of Gomer Pyle.

[DFW]

101. That is obviously not our military's overall mission

It is, however, and has been from the beginning, their mission
in Iraq. Cheneybush's ever-changing rationale for the invasion
has confirmed that almost as convincingly as if they had told
the truth from the beginning.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Well now that's just plain ridiculous.

[truebrit71]

34. Dying for a lie is "serving their country' HOW exactly?

...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. I Agree With You 100%. If He Wants To Join Then I'm Proud Of Him And Wish Him Luck.

No matter what some want to portray, there is still much honor in serving and enlisting.

[eridani]

84. Not under current circumstances

There is no reason why our military has to be a tool of imperial bullies, but it just happens to be being used that way at the moment.

There is no more honor in subjugating a defenseless country than there is when a high school senior beats up 3rd graders and takes their lunch money.

[Greyhound]

90. Please, tell us all about your valiant service. n/t

[Moochy]

124. He's earned the Keyboard Commando Badge of Honor

[Zhade]

150. He'd have to remember which branch he claimed to be in first.

NT!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. "Honor in serving and enlisting"?

Not in the past 40 years or so.

It's been one ill-conceived and/or cynically evil mission after another.

[Moochy]

121. WOW what a FUCKING suprise!!!! SHOCKED!!!!

[wicket]

135. No kidding!

:nopity:

[Zhade]

151. Conservative idiots usually don't surprise.

NT!

[LanternWaste]

158. on the other hand...

I, on the other hand, would do my best to allow the potential enlistee to understand all the consequences of joining today's army.

There are more ways than joining the military to serve one's country.

[murray hill farm]

4. Pictures might be worth more than any words.

The death and distruction of war ..in pictures..up close. Pictures of the returning trooops with arms and legs missing..with brain damage..with burns. Pictures that are graphic...and show what might well be his personal cost of becoming a part of this horrible war. For a 17 year old, this is what will be the most eye opening reality of what he may be signing up for if he makes that decision.

[flashl]

6. There is help

G.I. Rights and Military Recruiters in the Schools

There are G.I. Rights orgs (all over the Internet) who have veterans from every war volunteer as counselors to give guidance to military leaning high schoolers.

It is hard to dissuade a 17 year old that the Army's $60,000 bonus is a bad idea.

[Javaman]

9. Take him to a VA hospital for a little visit. Works like a charm. nt

[GliderGuider]

10. Operation Objection

Operation Objection is based in Canada but the arguments are the same.

Oh, and this one: Do You Know Enough To Enlist?
It's information on youth and militarism from American Friends Service Committee.

Good luck!

[semillama]

11. Anything you can get on PTSD might help.

I would be careful to frame your approach as you trying to make sure your nephew has all the pertinent information available. it is ultimately his decision on whether to sign up or not. If he does make that decision, then support him all you can. My best friend joined the Army several years ago, and it was the best thing he ever did - he's a captain and proud of his work, and has served tours in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Are scholarships out of the question for him?

[stellanoir]

Maybe have him read the "Stars & Stripes."

There are both pro and anti military perspectives posted there.

Encourage him talk to some vets who've been there and visit a military hospital.

Then he will more than likely question the recruiter's all too often faux promises.

It is his choice though.

Just encourage him to make an informed decision.

[Warpy]

12. Take him to a VA to volunteer.

That oughta do it.

[AnneD]

14. Try this little gem.....

http://www.beforeyouenlist.org/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2454635642389771946&hl=en

They put out a real deal video that you can watch on youtube etc. I use to encourage some kids to go into the military. I was in the military as was my Dad. But I would never ever recommend it to kids these days. We don't have leaders worthy of our troops and what they and their families sacrifice. Ask him why he wants to go and see if you can find an alternative. But be prepared. In the end-it is his life to do with as he will. At that point-all you can do is pray.

[garybeck]

16. strap him down. pay him. whatever it takes. n/t

[CPschem]

20. thanks everybody

Normally I wouldn't interfere with anyone's intention to serve their country, but the current administration's misuse of our armed forces for far from noble causes compels me to do so.

[NNN0LHI]

21. Tell her to threaten to disown him and give his inheritance to the animal shelter

Thats what I would do before I let my child become involved in this odious occupation.

Don

[mdmc]

23. He should go and fight for his country

unless his aunt will buy him a hot sports car and pay for him to go to college.

:patriot:

[BOSSHOG]

24. His parents should not dissuade him

from joining the miliary. They should be supportive while at the same tme try to divert his attention to the Navy or Air Force or Coast Guard.

[Arkansas Granny]

26. Thanks, BOSS. My 21 year old grandson recently enlisted in the

Navy. It was his decision and the family was supportive.

[BOSSHOG]

39. I joined the Navy in 72, I was 18

My parents kinda kept out of the process neither urging me on or wanting me not to join. If they had pressured me either way I think I would have went the other way cause that's what 18 year olds do. While I could possibly have done better elsewhere I never for a moment regret the time I spent in the Navy. It was a very rewarding experience.

[Stuckinthebush]

104. Excellent point...The Coast Guard

The Coast Guard is an extremely important fighting force that also saves lives on a daily basis. I respect the hell out of those men and women. The training they get in the Coast Guard is sure to open all types of doors down the road.

[CRF450]

144. Some Navy men and women are also sent to Iraq

My best friend named Chris who's in the Navy has spent about 15 months their and has been back here for just over a month. He was put their to do guard duty at one of the prisons where insurgents are kept. And he also went on many convoys.

To comment to the ones claiming our solders are killing civilians, can you really blaim them? Chris has told me many times that if they're being attacked, everyone around them has to drop to ground. If no one is on ground, they have to consider anyone but their own still standing an enemy!

[porphyrian]

29. If you can figure out how to tell a 17 year old what to do, you can write a book and be rich. - n/t

[budibudinski]

31. Sign him up for DU..Send him our way for a day and a night.

He just needs to hear the TRUTH.
Bets we can't convince him otherwise in 24 hours?

[porphyrian]

42. That would only work if he trusts the source.

Some people can be stabbed to death with the truth and still not believe it, simply because they don't trust the source.

[Bill McBlueState]

32. if college is really the goal...

He can get started on college now without having to put it off by joining the military for several years.

Suggest that he go to a community college, where costs are low and the credits will transfer. After a couple years working a non-lethal job and going to a community college, he should be ready financially to finish his degree at a four-year public school. It might take a few loans in addition to savings from work, but this path is much less likely to result in being dead than joining the military.

[kath]

35. Check out Project YANO's website - they have lots of good material there.

www.projectyano.org

They have some very good pamphlets - I particularly like this one, which my local library (in OK!) had in their pamphlet rack a while back: "The Military's Not Just a Job - It's Eight Years of Your Life"
http://www.projectyano.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=40

Other pamphlets here - Including one called "So You Want To Be a Man" Speaks to those who think the military is the best way to prove one's manhood.
http://www.projectyano.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=4&id=14&Itemid=68

Other materials listed under "Non-Military Alternatives" (link on left side of their homepage) http://www.projectyano.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=4&id=16&Itemid=71

[Puregonzo1188]

36. Does he know that 64% of all people in the army never receive money for college

and that in order to be eligible for this program you have to pay into it. Since 64% never get any money back the program makes a profit. Iraq Veterans Against the War, American Friends Service Committee, and Student Peace Action Network all have info on this and other counter-recruitment materials you should check into.

[Kelly Rupert]

60. How many of those apply for it? n/t

[noamnety]

98. That's what happened to me.

The stupid college fund cost me $1200 which I couldn't get back after I was discharged early and put in the inactive reserves - it was nonrefundable.

And then they called me back up anyway - I lost all my benefits for "getting out early" - but that didn't exempt me from still having to serve.

I successfully convinced someone not to join last weekend (a person who'd already been talking with recruiters and cut off all their hair already) by showing up with a copy of The Ground Truth, and sitting down and watching it with them.

I would also bring a copy of the enlistment "contract" and go over the fine print with them. The fine print is outrageous, really.

[IndianaJones]

37. An honorable choice of career. nt.

[Greyhound]

38. If this genius is determined to join-up, tell him about how great the "Coasties" are. n/t

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

49. What's up with the pejorative use of "genius"?

While I don't think it's wise for anyone to join the military with the current Chimp in Charge, I give the kid at least some credit in that he doesn't want to sit around, eat pizza and play video games like a lot of other 17 year olds think they should be allowed to do until their 30.

Your statement reflects an essential problem when questions like this arise. Someone is legitimatly concerned for a friend's choices and safety, and this sort of dismissive comment essentially mocks the person for which the OP is concerned.

[Greyhound]

76. What's up is, A.) my Family's military history stretches back almost twice

as long as this country's. There have been greyhounds serving in the American and British Navies for over 400 years, We've been in every war and every major naval engagement since the 1400's, so you can take that supercilious "holier than thou" shit elsewhere. Whatever you think makes you an authority, we've been there and done that since before your great, great, great, great, great grandfather was a twinkle in your great, great, great, great, great, great, grandfather's eye.

B.) Anybody that would even think about joining up during the commission of this global crime spree, with a virtual guarantee of becoming a forced accomplice in said crime, is undoubtedly not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

So, with that in mind I reiterate my reply, if he has to go in, at least get him into the Coasties where it is much more likely that he will, at least, serve some good purpose, even though he will still be feeding the machine.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

83. If it makes you feel like an "authority" parading your family military history

.....around, good for you. Mine has got a pretty distinguished one as well, thank you very much, except I have no interest in playing "Can you top this?" with an obvious braggart. It also had zilch to do with the question, which is essentially came down to why be such a dick about it? Fortunately, I'm sure the OP has the brains and decency to take your legitimate suggestion without feeling the need to toss in a sarcastic shot at a friend's family member.

Anyway, your condescending attitude explains everything I needed to know.

[Greyhound]

87. I don't need to "feel like an authority" I was steeped in it for my entire life.

There are rooms full of flags and medals and blah, blah, blah, dedicated to the blood and pain and suffering that my family suffered and administered to other people.

If any of these kids had even the tiniest inkling of what war is really like, none would ever join. I guess that, and the fact that misery loves company, is why we go to such lengths to make it seem like it is something noble and worthwhile.

My point is that in the Coast Guard there is at least a chance that he can actually do some good and help someone. The very best he can look forward to in the other services is to, maybe, temporarily alleviate a little suffering for a few minutes or hours, knowing that it was his "brothers in arms" that brought it about in the first place.

[RebelOne]

40. I have the same problem with my 20-year-old grandson.

He is going to enlist in the Army if he hasn't already done so. And his reason is also the recruiter's promise of money for college. The recruiter told him that he will be shipped to Iraq after basic training. I'm a basket case about it.

[fed-up]

45. take him to a local junior college and have them help him apply for scholarships/working his way

through college won't hurt either

[ShortnFiery]

47. Worse than losing a limb, "brain trauma" and it's horrific aftermath is a common injury. nt

[Ilsa]

48. My friend's nephew signed up two years ago (Army) with the

soft promise that he wouldn't be needed in Iraq. He leaves for Iraq in early October. He's 19. It's russian roullette with 169,000 other people.

The $20,000 signing bonus won't be useful if he's dead.

[slowry]

50. Tell him there's no heaven, and no 1-ups or health pots out in the field. n/t

[dflprincess]

51. I've told my nephews and nieces that if they even think about joining the Army

they're out of the will.

Fortunately, none of them have shown any inclination to sign up.

[CRK7376]

52. This is tough!

I'm a 30 year lifer....Enlisted as a kid, served six years in the ranks and then, due to GI BIll got a commission and am still around and kicking....I do not want either of my sons to enlist, but if they do, I will support them.

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The tough part of this is that I despise the current administration and am waiting for the day we, as a nation finally come to our senses and change the leadership. Unfortunately for many of us, we have chosen to serve our nation in the military and it comes, warts and all, with the probability that a war or conflict will happen. You know that going in...that is a possibility, more so now that we have been engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq for 6-7 years...I have no problem with our involvement in Afghanistan. Been there done that one....nasty place, but that's where 9/11 was launched and is still a refugee for bin Laden...I am firmly against our foley in Iraq. Never-the-less I signed on the dotted line and will serve accordingly. Someday soon, hopefully this nightmare will be over and our country will heal. My Army will survive and reconstitute.

Now back to the issue at hand. Tell the young man that he has a high probability of serving in a place where the local populace does not like him very much and will try to harm him too. But there are many soldiers over the past 6-7 years that have not served overseas in a combat zone. 30,000+ can be found in Korea. Now Korea could go hot in a moments notice, but right now it's rather quiet...What job is the young man enlisting for...Infantry..he will 99.99% being going to war...other jobs...maybe not. Lots of Army Band jobs are stateside or will never leave their garrison environment. Lots of hospital units never deploy....

As an old soldier, my hat is off to the young, and not so young kids,(enlistment age up to 42year old I think) that are coming into the military during this obscene war in Iraq. Serving one's country is a very, very strong motivation. It got me and I enlisted 4 years after the last US troops came out of Vietnam....It's something about serving a greater cause and giving back to my country. If the young man is a Southerner like me, that too has some involvement as if something in the water in Dixie makes Southern males more inclined to join the military....All else fails have the young man look long and hard at the Air Force, Navy or Coast Guard. For me, if my sons, were to push joining the military I would not want them to. If they were determined to do so, then I would do everything to get them to see that AF, Navy or Coast Guard is a much better place to serve and perform service for one's country.....

Enough of my rant. Best of luck.

[riderinthestorm]

53. Approximately 2 penis amputations are being performed each and every day now.

I don't have the article but there were a few DU threads that shouldn't be too hard to find.

Just tell that boy that he stands to lose his dick if he joins now. Body armor doesn't protect his genitalia and everything but his torso is vulnerable (and even his torso with the crappy body armor with which most troops are supplied).

[JVS]

62. ahhhh!

[Ayesha]

55. Show him "Alive Day"

It's a new HBO documentary about severely injured Iraq war veterans. It's disturbing and very touching. I can almost guarantee it'll change his mind.

[NightHawk63]

79. I totally agree.

I watched it earlier today. Thought I was pretty hardened, but I have to admit that watching the video of the former gymnast, I cried.

[Breeze54]

56. Before You Enlist Dot ORG

http://www.beforeyouenlist.org/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fkkdoDOIJM
The video provides a brief introduction to the subject of military enlistment.
For in-depth information, visit AFSC's Youth & Militarism site Youth4Peace.org
– and the other Truth in Recruiting links listed on this page.

http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqdontenlist.html">18 Reasons Why You Should Not Enlist

[PA Democrat]

145. Thanks for that link.

My son is sending it to one of his friends who has signed up for the Delayed Enlistment Program. The recruiter told this kid so many lies, that I was appalled. Sadly, some kids, don't have parents who can help kids wade through the bullshit and the high pressure tactics these recruiters utilize. Any kid who is told the TRUTH about what their enlistment really entails and still decides to join, then fine. But I've seen firsthand how dishonest and aggressive some of these guys are. They make me sick.

[illinoisprogressive]

58. have the aunt have the nephew sit down and watch some of the videos on the web

that are about war and vets and wounded solider. she can write down the names of the ones to show him.

[Kelly Rupert]

59. Let him go.

Seriously. I appreciate his courage, even if I would disagree with his decision. People have to make their own choices, and his life is not his aunt's to decide.

Good luck to him.

[Breeze54]

61. It's 17 yr old stupidity! Not bravery!

:(

[Kelly Rupert]

65. He has to be allowed to make his own decisions.

I don't see anything wrong with presenting him with information--real, sourced, fair information--to dissuade him. But it should treat him like an adult. Quite frankly, the "he's just a baby, he can't understand what he's doing, stop him stop him stop him" attitude on display here is only going to push him even farther into the Army's grasp.

Put yourself in the shoes of a 17-year-old male--the testosterone, the bravado, the fear of humiliation, the desire to succeed and be seen as a man.

On one hand, the recruiter saying, "Hey, we understand you've got problems. We can help you pay for college--and what's more, we will make you the man among men that we see in you." On the other, you have have "No! You're too young and stupid to decide what to do!"

You and I know that one of these two people has his interests at heart, and one sees only another step towards his quota. But who's he going to want to sign on with? The one who treats him like he's a man with potential? Or the one who treats him like a wayward boy?

So give him information. Give him the casualty rates, the PTSD rates, the death rates. Show him the average temperatures in Baghdad, the daily routine of a soldier in Iraq. Show him pictures of wounded soldiers. But don't be a scold. Act like the final decision is, and ought to be, in his hands. Because if you don't, he'll prove you wrong.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. Sorry--17 IS too young and stupid to make a life-threatening decision

Kids that age will do really stupid things because basically, it hasn't sunk into them that they're going to die some day.

Deep down they believe, "It won't happen to me."

And all this talk of "serving one's country" by going overseas and killing people who never threatened the U.S. is pure macho bullshit. Anyone who really believes that the troops in Iraq are "serving their country" and not carrying out the mad ambitions of the current administration is too naive to be away from home.

There. I said it.

If a young person wants to "serve his country," let him go volunteer to rebuild houses in New Orleans or fight forest fires or help out disabled veterans just a bit older than him who are paralyzed for life or covered with burn scars or blind.

And for heaven's sake, let him know that there are ways to finance college without risking his life.

[Kelly Rupert]

69. The problem with that theory is that he *is* able to make that decision.

You might believe him too young and stupid to do so, but telling him he can't will most likely only make him want to even more. He's old enough, legally, to decide. And, again, if he has one person telling him "We'll make you a man; it's your decision," and one telling him, "No, you're too young and stupid," he's far more likely to want to say yes to the first person.

If you want to make full use of your last chance to disparage your nephew's maturity, by all means, go ahead and do so. But if you want him to give you and your ideas a fair shake, then treat him like an adult. After all, the decision is in his hands, whether you think it ought to be or not.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. I thought that 17-year-olds can't join without parental permission

:shrug:

[Kelly Rupert]

73. Since the OP made no note of it, I had assumed that:

1. They had consented, or
2. His eighteenth birthday was close enough that it didn't matter.

[riderinthestorm]

72. Penis amputations. That's the ticket. Every 17 year old male is only thinking with one head anyway

Time to make that head important imho.

Stress the penis amputations and a boatload of 17 year old males will get the point (heh!) real quick.

[Greyhound]

88. Possibly worthwhile suggestion, although it is the berries that are the

source of the testosterone poisoning.
:hi:

[w8liftinglady]

139. a few resources on that-it's a very real problem!

http://www.counterpunch.org/rosen06232007.html
Genital Injuries, Prosthetic Devices and the War on Terror
The Hidden Cost of War

http://patient-research.elsevier.com/patientresearch/displayAbs?key=S0090429506006376&referrer=www.google.com%252Fsearch%253Fq%253Dgenital%252Binjuries%252Biraq%2526hl%253Den%2526rlz%253D1T4GFRD_en___US226%2526start%253D10%2526sa%253DN
Novel technique for testicular salvage after combat-related genitourinary injury

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/Opinion/Content?oid=96733
-snip
But there's a whole category of injuries no one's talking much about: genital injuries. The reason these kids fighting in Iraq are getting their heads and limbs blown off is that their trunks are protected by body armor, and Iraqi combatants have learned to shoot around it. Dr. Col. Vito Imbascini, a urologist and surgeon with the California Army National Guard, told the Inter Press Service that during his deployment in Germany, not a day went by that he didn't have to amputate the genitals of one or two unfortunate "peacemakers." He was there for four months; that's a minimum of 120 nut-ectomies. When he left, someone else took over.

Heads and limbs aren't the only thing sticking out of body armor.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/0104-07.htm
Dr. Imbascini just returned from a four-month deployment to Germany, where he treated the worst of the U.S. war wounded. He said that an extremely high number of wounded soldiers are coming home with their arms or legs amputated. Imbascini said he amputated the genitals of one or two men every day.

"I walk into the operating room and the general surgeons are doing their work and there is the body of this Navy SEAL, which is a physical specimen to behold," he told IPS. "And his abdomen is open, they're exploring both intestines. He's missing both legs below the knee, one arm is blown off, he's got incisions on his thighs to relieve the pressure on the parts of the legs that are hopefully gonna survive and there's genital injuries, and you just want to cry."

[Breeze54]

78. 17 yr olds can't sign contracts without parental permission.

[Breeze54]

67. He's still a minor.

He should be saved from himself.

[Kelly Rupert]

70. Life is full of "shoulds."

But you can't very well "should" the army recruiting process away. On one hand, you can deal with the situation as it should be--with him being a minor who needs to have some sense slapped into his noggin. On the other hand, you can deal with the situation as it is--with him being a young man who craves respect, and one who has the decision completely in his hands.

Deal with the world as you want it to be, or deal with it as it is. If you want to keep your nephew out of the army, I would strongly advise the second.

[Breeze54]

77. What are you talking about? It isn't my nephew.

Send your own kid into W's meatgrinder, with no discussion.

The aunt has a right to ask and the kid should be informed!

[treestar]

82. Well, he is pretty immature

He would be at 17. A 17 year old is a minor.

He thinks it is going to pay for college.

So there is nothing wrong with pointing out reality to him - that he also might not survive or might come back maimed and that he'll have experiences which could give him nightmares for life and make his college education unattainable or worthless.

I know of one couple who let their son sign up, and he's dead. That's the reality.

And it isn't even serving this country, it's serving Bushco and the military industrial complex at this point. Right now, today, it is dishonorable to sign up - to use it to pay for college is downright unrealistic - the current Administration will do all it can to minimize the benefits to him.

[MazeRat7]

64. Why ? let the "young-adult" do what he wants...

We all make good/bad decisions in our lives... this is what builds character.

MZr7

[Breeze54]

68. This kind of decision kills!!

:(

He's still a minor.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

74. Point out the idiocy of thinking that militarism=patriotism

"Serving your country" is one of those right-wing memes that implies that the rest of us are just a bunch of leeches.

Let's review recent military actions:

Vietnam War: stupid, unnecessary war based on blindness to facts

Invasion of the Dominican Republic: we didn't like the guy who overthrew the dictator

Interventions in Central America: propping up evil right-wing governments that regularly massacred their own people and trying to overthrow a popular government

Invasion of Grenada: more Cold War paranoia, stupidly lauded by right-wingers and flag waving idiots

Occupation of Lebanon: What did that accomplish except getting 283 Marines blown up?

First Gulf War: Going after Saddam Hussein for invading Kuwait after our ambassador told him it was okay

Somalia: Went in whole hog to try to straighten out an unstraightenable mess when all that was required was to guard aid convoys

Bosnia/Kosovo: The EU was handling this one. Not sure why U.S. troops went in.

Haiti: "helped" the president resign. The country is still an incredible mess.

Panama: In order to "get" a former CIA asset, U.S. troops destroy a section of Panama City

Afghanistan: After suddenly discovering that the Taliban (whom the CIA supported) have been repressive since 1996
(which any leftist could have told you in 1996) and on the theory that Osama Bin Laden is hiding somewhere in there, the U.S. invades. Lots of Afghanis killed, but little real progress in the past 6 years, and much more destruction.

Iraq: Besides the the civilian deaths, the deaths of American service personnel and the incredible waste of resources the hypocrisy of making "human rights violations" against Saddam Hussein while basing troops in Uzbekistan, whose president boils enemeis in oil, increases one's cynicism to whole new levels.

Yeah, I have relatives in the military, and they all believe that they're "serving their country."

Meanwhile, we have so many unmet needs in this country, and the money that could meet these needs is being wasted on cynically evil wars and military interventions and on maintaining a network of over 100 military bases around the world, including some places that just make you think, "Huh?"

Well, if the actions listed above are "serving one's country," then I'll just be a leech, thank you.

[JohnyCanuck]

80. General Smedley "War is a Racket" Butler figured it out 80 years

ago, and the "Great War on Terror" is the living proof, the more things change the more they stay the same.

Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, USMC

double recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor

"I spent 33 years and 4 months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force--the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I suspected I was part of a racket all the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all members of the military profession I never had an original thought until I left the service."

Smedley D. Butler (1881-1940)

http://www.warisaracket.org/dedication.html

War is a racket!

Smedley Butler: War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

And war is the most profitable racket in the world!

http://www.warisaracket.org/racket.html

And in a speech delivered in 1933, General Butler said:

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

http://www.warisaracket.org/semperfi.html

[Joe for Clark]

75. But they promise a lot. Tell him check with the others before him -

that got made the same promises -just prudent. What they get exactly??

Then judge. The best you can do is that.

IMO

[Wilber_Stool]

81. Ask him if he would kill his neighbors.

Ask him, if here were ordered to round up his neighbors, and maybe shoot some, to take them away to a camp because they were anti- American terrorist loving traitors. Would he do it. Would he take up arms against his own people if he were ordered to. It's a real possibility.

[BreweryYardRat]

86. I'd say emphasize the fact that military training dehumanizes you.

Point to that one article about Pat what's-his-face, the guy who fled to Canada. It mentions a guy who can't sleep at night because he sees the faces of the Iraqi kids he's run over, and his buddy, who considers the kids just something to "pick out of the front grille of his truck."

Also emphasize that if he wants to prove his manhood, he could work as a park ranger, he could join the Peace Corps, etc... Plenty of "masculine" jobs out there that won't risk getting him killed for corporate profits.

[Maraya1969]

89. "Fallen Heroes" movie. Remind him that he may end up killing children.

Tell him that death might not be the worse thing that could happen. That poor man with severe nerve damage really hit me hard. I can't remember where I saw him. And the blind people and that picture of the man whose face was completely burned...the photos of his wedding.

He won't be able to go to school if he is shot in the face and sustains brain damage.

And in "Fallen Heroes" there was a man who thought a woman in a long Burka type outfit was pulling out a gun and he shot and killed her and then realized she was pulling out a white handkerchief.

PLUS the promises they give are bullshit. I know several women veterans who are in their 40's who all have auto immune disease and really get substandard care. It is so frustrating for them and even for me to hear about it because I can't help them.

Maybe you can contact that Reverend that was arrested today. I'm sure he would talk to her son.

Plus THE MONEY FOR SCHOOL WILL NOT BE THERE AFTER ANOTHER 6...10 YEARS AT WAR! THEY RENEGE ON THEIR PROMISES ALL THE TIME. HOW DO SO MANY VETS END UP HOMELESS WHEN THEY HAVE SACRIFICED SO MUCH FOR THEIR COUNTRY. IS THERE COUNTRY HELPING THEM NOW. NO!

I feel frantic trying to think of things. I bet veterans for peace would have some great ideas.

Maybe she can get one of those books that lists the myriad of scholarships available that no one ever thinks of. Like the ones that you have to be 1/2 Polish and 1/2 Canadian with red hair to get, (not true but there really are a ton of scholarships available if you know where to look).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

109. See post #36--the "money for college" lure ain't necessarily so

One of the first casualties from Oregon was a young man from a working class family who joined up to get money for college. A classic "nice kid," by all accounts. Age 19 when he died.

He was his parents' only child.

The photo of his parents at his funeral was one of the saddest pictures I have ever seen. The raw grief and agony on their faces should have been enough to turn the most hardened right winger against the war.

[Maraya1969]

91. "Iraq for sale" movie powerful. And this Sunday there is a special on HBO

with James Gandolphini about the soldiers coming back with horrible injuries. Someone posted some pictures from it a couple days ago. I think it is called "Coming home"


(LOL When I clicked spell checker the word "Gandolphini" came up and the suggestion was "Dolphin") :hi:

[LibertyorDeath]

93. epidemic of brain-damaged soldiers.

"an epidemic of brain-damaged soldiers"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1773367


http://www.wkyc.com/news/health/health_article.aspx?sto...


At home, troops cope with brain damage


The war in Iraq is not over, but one legacy is already being felt across America: an epidemic of brain-damaged soldiers.
Thousands of troops have been diagnosed with traumatic brain injury, or TBI. These blast-caused head injuries are so different from the ones doctors are used to seeing from falls and car crashes that treating them is as much faith as it is science.

People with TBI have frequent headaches, dizziness, and trouble concentrating and sleeping. They may be depressed, irritable and confused, and easily provoked or distracted. Speech or vision also can be impaired.

Some sufferers have been misdiagnosed with personality disorders. Others have lost jobs because of unrecognized and untreated symptoms.

As more troops return from the war, brain injuries are a growing burden, for them, for the few programs to treat them, and for taxpayers who pay for their care and disability if they cannot hold jobs.

[meowomon]

94. Tell her to call the recruiter and swear that he's gay.

Tell her to photoshop pics of him doing it with a hunky marine. That'll keep him out of the army!

[OneBlueSky]

97. get him to watch the next showing of Gandolfini's interviews with wounded vets . . .

on HBO . . . when he sees -- graphically -- how he may end up, he should change his mind . . .

[Nucular Terrorist]

99. I've been down this road.

I had a couple of friends that thought about joining, and so far only one of them actually signed up.


1) Don't overload him with stats and films; it will only go through one ear and out the other. When you come on too strong, he’ll automatically block out all criticism and label it “liberal propaganda”. Try not to mock all of the military propaganda that comes out his mouth.

2) Never threaten to disown him or turn the family against him. You want to create a disturbed young man with nothing to lose? When he gets out, he’ll finally realize the military wont care about him, the majority of flag-wavers wont, the general population could care less about him, and he doesn’t have a family to turn to, and the post-war emotions will start to kick in as well.

Him after four years of service = Charles Whitman or Rush Limbaugh.


3) Do try to create some other financial options for him and college.


4) If he does decide to join, try to get him to serve in a non-infantry job. That is how my friend and Bush got out of the hotzone.

[femmedem]

100. Here's how I dissuaded a young woman from enlisting:

I bought her a copy of a book, "Ten Excellent Reasons Not to Join the Military." It's a short book, easily read in a night or two. You can read about it here. I chose this link because it contains an explanation on the tactics recruiters use to get people to enlist.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2609/

The book also has its own website:

http://www.10reasonsbook.com/

And make sure to tell your nephew that recruiters lie lie lie. The recruiter will promise that your nephew will be guaranteed a certain type of job, or that he will never see combat, or never go to Iraq. The recruiter might even put it in writing. But the fine print of the contract states that the government can break the terms of the contract at any time. The person who enlists can never break the contract. It's right there in the contract: the recruiter can promise anything--and the promises don't mean squat.

Also, research how many veterans of the previous Gulf War now have long-term health problems. How many have children with birth defects. Make sure your nephew knows that PTSD has recently been classified as a personality disorder, rather than a result of combat, so the government doesn't have to pay.

And your nephew should know that the military preys on young people, on their idealism, on their desire to serve their country, to better the world and themselves. They lure them in with false promises, then treat them like garbage for the rest of their lives.

Your nephew deserves better.

[unhappycamper]

102. Take a look at my journal.

Better yet, have him take a look at my journal.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/unhappycamper

[guitar man]

107. let him sample the food

then tell him that's all he'll get to eat every day in Iraq for 15 months at a stretch. That ought to do it x(

[Rosa Luxemburg]

119. yeah I remember those days!

[lonestarnot]

108. Show him the video of carriers being picked off by hand thrown armor penatrating

grenades.

[On the Road]

110. If He's Intent on Joining a Military Organization,

suggest he join the Coast Guard. Seriously. Full benefits. No danger of combat. No moral dilemmas.

[unhappycamper]

111. I'm under the impression that the Coast Guard has fought in *every* battle since 1798

http://www.uscg.mil/history/faqs/firstsindex.asp

National Defense & Military Preparedness:

On 10 October 1798, Secretary Stoddert, first Secretary of the Navy, sent first instructions to cutters acting in cooperation with Navy via collectors of customs. This was in the beginning of the first "war" fought by the United States: The Quasi-War with France. The U.S. only had the revenue cutters as a naval force ready to meet French navy warships and privateers as there was as yet no warships in the Navy. The cutters, with privateers, first upheld the new nation's dignity on the high seas in this war.

In July of 1812 the revenue cutter James Madison became the first cutter captured by the British in the War of 1812. Her commanding officer, Revenue Captain George Brooks, became the first Revenue officer to surrender a cutter to an enemy during a war.

The first U.S. warship to fight a Mexican warship: the cutter Ingham battled the Mexican war schooner Montezuma in June, 1835.

The Revenue Cutter Service cutter Harriet Lane fired the first naval shot of the Civil War on 12 April 1861 when she stopped the steamer Nashville with a shot across the bow when the Nashville refused to show her colors off Charleston. The Harriet Lane was under the command of Revenue Captain John Faunce and the famous shot was fired by Revenue Lieutenant Daniel D. Thompkins.

On 13 August 1864 Revenue Captain Thomas M. Dungan became the first Revenue officer to be killed in action against the enemy. He was the commanding officer of the cutter Reliance and perished during an attack on Confederate forces when the cutter was five miles up the great Wicomico River.

First vessel to carry the news of Admiral George Dewey's victory over the Spanish fleet at Manila was the Revenue cutter McCulloch, which carried news of the victory from Manila to Hong Kong, where it was put out via telegraph. In joining Dewey's fleet the McCulloch made a number of firsts, including being the first cutter to transit the Suez Canal and the first to sail in the western Pacific.

The Coast Guard made the first capture of enemy forces by any U.S. service in World War II when the cutter Northland seized the Norwegian vessel Buskoe off the coast of Greenland. The Norwegians were in the service of Nazi Germany and were attempting to establish a weather station along the Greenland shore.

Signalman 1/c Douglas Munro was the first and only Coast Guardsman to be awarded the Medal of Honor.

On 17 April 1943, Lieutenant Ross P. Bullard and Boatswain's Mate First Class C. S. "Mike" Hall boarded the U-175 at sea after their cutter, the Spencer, blasted the U-boat to the surface with depth charges. They were part of a boarding party sent to seize the U-boat before the crew could scuttle it. The damage to the U-boat was severe, however, and it sank after both had boarded it and climbed the conning tower. Both men ended up in the water as the U-boat slipped beneath the waves. Nevertheless, they carry the distinction of being the first American servicemen to board an enemy warship underway at sea since the War of 1812.

Lieutenant Junior Grade Clarence Samuels became the first African-American to command a major vessel since Michael Healy and the first to achieve command during wartime when he assumed command of the Light Vessel No. 115 on 28 July 1944.

The Coast Guard Cutter USCG 83434 became the first and only cutter to host an official surrender ceremony when Imperial Japanese Army Second Lieutenant Kinichi Yamada surrendered the garrison of Aguijan Island on board the cutter, 4 September 1945. Rear Admiral Marshall R. Greer, USN, accepted the surrender for the United States.

On 6 September 1966 GM1 Lester K. Gates was awarded the Bronze Star Medal with a combat "V" device for "meritorious service and action against the enemy" while serving on board CGC Point White (WPB-82308) in Vietnam. The Point White attacked and captured a Viet Cong junk while patrolling the Soi Rap River. GM1 Gates was the first enlisted Coast Guardsman to be awarded the Bronze Star since World War II.

Lieutenant Commander Vivien Crea became the first woman from any service to serve as the Presidential Military Aide. She carried the "football" for President Ronald Reagan for three years.

Lieutenant Glenn Sulmasy became the first Coast Guardsman to participate in Operation Desert Shield when the Dwight D. Eisenhower Battle Group went "on scene" after Iraq invaded Kuwait. Sulmasy was assigned to the battle group.
On 15 September 1990 the Secretary of Transportation and the commandant committed the first-ever deployment of a Coast Guard Reserve port security unit overseas: Port Security Unit 303.

Lieutenant Commander Everett F. Rollins III was the only Coast Guard officer assigned to JTF Proven Force which was the northern Iraq component of Operation Desert Shield, and the only Coast Guard officer assigned to Operation Provide Comfort.

A USCG tactical port security boat ("Raider") of PSU 301 (B), stationed in Al Jubayl, Saudi Arabia, was the first boat in the newly reopened harbor, Mina Ash Shuwaikh in Kuwait City, Kuwait during Operation Desert Storm. The USCG TPSB led a procession of multinational vessels into the harbor on 21 April 1991.

During Operation "Uphold Democracy" in 1994, Telecommunication Specialist First Class Jerry D. "Burly" Burleson was the first Coast Guardsman to enter Port Au Prince, Haiti. PO Burleson and two other members, TC3 James "Jim" Bell and TC3 Robert "Rob" Sherlin provided communications support for port security units and the Navy commodore assigned to the Haitian theater. Using satellite telephones, high-frequency and line-of-site equipment, vital information was delivered to the communications staff for relay. The days consisted of long hours and very hot days because of the situational requirement to maintain full body armor and log sleeve BDU's.

First Coast Guard person to command a U.S. Marine Corps unit: Jose L. Rodriguez took command of the Riverine Training Center, Special Operations Training Group, II MEF at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina in July 1999. The first Hispanic-American Coast Guardsman to earn his Gold Navy/Marine Corps jump wings while in the Coast Guard and assigned to a Jump Billet (USMC Majors Billet at Special Operations Training Group II MEF) was Jose Rodriguez in 1999.

Six U.S. Navy Cyclone-Class patrol coastal warships were assigned to Operation Noble Eagle on 5 November 2001. This was the first time that U.S. Navy ships were employed jointly with the U.S. Coast Guard to help protect our nation's coastline, ports and waterways from terrorist attack.

LCDR Daniel Clark, USCGR, was the first Coast Guardsmen assigned directly to the United Nations for a staff position in a mission. He was assigned in 2004 as the Maritime Operations Officer for the UN's Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH).

First MSSTs ever commissioned were commissioned by two Hispanics: first two COs of MSSTs 91101 and 91102 (East and West Coast) were LCDR Ramon Ortiz and LCDR Jose Rodriguez.

On May 5 2004 the Coast Guard presented the Purple Heart to BM3 Joseph Ruggiero in Miami for injuries sustained while defending the Khawr Al Amaya Oil Terminal in Iraq on April 24. Ruggiero, the first Coast Guard recipient of the Purple Heart since the Vietnam War, received the award from VADM James D. Hull, Commander Coast Guard Atlantic Area. Ruggiero's shipmate, DC3 Nathan Bruckenthal was killed in this same bombing and posthumously received the Purple Heart.

[On the Road]

113. Did Not Know About the Recent Wars

Thank you for posting that.

A Coast Guard veteran recommended that course to me for someone else who wanted to join the military. If the choice is between that and the Army, it's still probably a superior alternative.

[Festivito]

112. Have him find a current soldier to discuss this choice.

Joining is not your decision to make. There is no need for someone else to follow your logic.

But, DO HAVE HIM TALK TO A CURRENT SOLDIER who is NOT A RECRUITER or associated with a recruiter.

FIND HIM ONE, if nothing develops.

Respect and honor his choice of course.

I had a friend's son who wanted the job and money. He'd be an excellent soldier. Has a relative in one of the secret organizations and I said to him that he has a connection, make use of it.

So far, he finished school and hasn't entered. I thank God because I think our president has no concern for our military men and women. It is an awful time to consider it.

We will be paying for this administration in so many ways we do not even yet realize.

Good luck, for all of US.

[Thothmes]

114. Easy

For a seventeen year old to enlist, a parent or legal guardian must co-sign the enlistment papers. Just advise them not to co-sign the papers. All bets are off when the boy turns 18. At that point, parental permission is not required.

[slackmaster]

115. Tell him his chances of survival are a lot higher in the Navy

:hi:

[ecstatic]

116. Unless you are going to pay his bills and for his education

You're going to have to let him do what he thinks will give him a shot at a better future. If he ends up working at McDonald's for the next 10 years,guess who he will blame? You and his aunt. I've been in this situation: I was offered a full ROTC scholarship but I did end up leaving the program, thank goodness. But that was a mistake that I had to make on my own.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

117. Tell him to join the Marine Crotch and be one of "The Few the Proud".

I mean, if he insists on being an idiot, why not get into the outfit that is the most idiotic?

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder. - Albert Einstein

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. Where's his dad? n/t

[donsu]

122. remind him that the injured not only lose legs but also their genitals

nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

123. Some factors that just occurred to me:

1. Are there problems with his home life that make him eager to get out on his own?

2. Are some of his friends enlisting?

One teenage trait since time immemorial has been wanting to do what all your friends are doing, no matter how stupid it is.

3. Have his father and/or other male authority figures (teachers, coaches) been telling him that the military will "make a man out of him"?

About 20 years ago, Canadian writer Gwynne Dwyer put together a series called War, which ran on PBS stations. His segment on basic training mentioned that armies all over the world prefer 18-year-olds for two reasons:

1) They're at the height of their physical strength and endurance

2) They're insecure and conformist and will do anything to follow their group's definitions of masculinity.

[edbermac]

125. Serving in the military is an honorable career.

Even though the current Commander In Chief is a complete and utter asshole.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

128. See my post #74

Where's the honor?

Being a tool of idiot and sociopaths?

[edbermac]

130. John Kerry was a tool in Vietnam for Richard Nixon?

I don't think so.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. Yes, of course he was.

Why do you think he threw his medals over the fence at the capitol?

[wicket]

137. He didn't throw his medals, only his ribbons

:P

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

138. touche

:rofl:

[Thothmes]

154. Tool

More correctly Johnson and Nixon. Kerry went on active duty in 1966

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

129. Killing people is wrong

how's that?

[Breeze54]

131. Ask him if he wants this?

[babylonsister]

136. DUer uhc posted this, and it's a Marine talking, but I think it's relevant:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=259x4067

[dogday]

141. He could speak with my Son who has been to Iraq

and who never ever wants to go back... I also know when my child went to middle school this year, there was a question asked if I would allow the military to talk to my child, and I checked it no, and will continue to check it no.....

[orleans]

153. is your son alright? was he in the armed services? what does he

say about iraq?

[SoCalDem]

142. Money promised NOW, with IRAQ in between is not a fair trade-off

There are articles..many of them,, about how these promises of 'college money' are routinely renegged on later..

that 17 yr old needs to read those articles..

It always reminds me of Wimpy..promising to pay tomorrow for a burger he plans to eat today..

[Zhade]

147. Tell him he'll die, or wind up murdering innocents for corporate America.

I prefer the direct approach...

[proud patriot]

149. Encourage the Peace Corps instead

Serve your country and, see the world without a gun in your hand ..

[Burma Jones]

155. There are better alternatives to the Army, namely the Navy or Air Force

The Military goes where it's told. You have a problem with the war, change the Civilian Leadership.

If you have no money for college, the military is an attractive option. Personally, I would steer someone to the Navy or Air Force, they get better treatment. However, the Air Force is actually reducing its ranks right now and Navy personnel are patrolling Iraqi waters.

[Netbeavis]

156. here is all you need to know

If he really wants money for college, join the Air Force or Navy where risk of combat related death and injury is drastically reduced.

The sign up bonuses may not be as good as the Army, but the GI-Bill for Veterans of the Iraq war, is NOT Military Branch specific. The Air Force & Navy get the same college benefits as the Army and the Marines. The only differences is the sign-up bonuses which are totally independant of the GI-Bill.


Better yet, join the State Air National Guard. Most State National Guard have FREE state tuition for its soldiers serving in the Air National Guard and this is on top of the GI-Bill. DOUBLE BONUS. Plus, if he is deployed, its to a secure airbase and not streets of Baghdad or Faluja.


If you or anyone want to know the abolute best way to get college 100% paid for plus sign-up bonuses with out having to go to a hot spot or active duty, contact me and I will tell you all you need to know.

been there. done that.

[KeineAhnung]

157. No matter what..

...our country needs a military and specifically an Army. Those who join with the intent to avoid combat at all costs are morally lacking.

"You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life – but if you desire to defend it, protect it, and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men into the mud."

A proud LT....

[Netbeavis]

160. never said this was risk free

but if he is hearing the call to serve and the college money is enticing, there are other options that reduce the probability of getting hurt or killed which helps satisfy both sides of the family on that issue. He gets to serve his country and earn an education and his family is a little bit more relieved.

Just a proposal compromise for this individual situation based on what was presented. Others may vary.

[KeineAhnung]

159. Let me add this...

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)

[Netbeavis]

161. and his experience in the matter was what?

Curious onlooker?