C-Span Caller Tells Iraqis How To Order Their Government

[DemocratSinceBirth]

They need to insitutionalize the separation of church and state...Gawd, where do they find these people?


Maybe they should just make "Down By The Riverside" the Iraqi national anthem...

[bryant69]

1. Do you think that Seperation of Church and State is a good principle?

I generally do - along with religious freedom - i.e. the right to worship as you choose.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. It's A Good Idea But There's Not One Arab Country That Has Separation Of Church And State

You can not superimpose your values on someone who doesn't share those values or find them attractive...

[zanne]

3. But they always forget the right NOT to worship....

I think the separation Church and State exists to protect both believers and nonbelievers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. There Aren't Any Secular Arab States So The Point Is Moot

You can't build a liberal democracy out of nothing...

[zanne]

17. I was talking about Separation Of C&S in general....

They might achieve a separation of church and state, but I doubt that nonbelievers will be tolerated.

[ljm2002]

18. I seem to remember a certain secular Arab state...

...just recently. Let me think, it'll come -- oh yeah, it started with an "I" -- now I remember: Eye-rack -- that's it, Iraq! Yes! Iraq used to be just that: a secular state, right in the middle of the middle east. Imagine that.

Whatever happened to ol' Eye-rack, anyway?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. I Should Have Said Secular Democratic Arab States

And Saddam wrapped himself in the cloak of Islam when the going got tough just as his idol, Josef Stalin, wrapped himself in the cloak of Russian nationalism and the Russian Orthodox Church when it was attacked by its erstwhile ally, Germany...

[soothsayer]

23. well shrubby practically nails himself to the cross but the US ain't a secular christian country

in retrospect, he's too much of a pu$$y to nail himself the cross. he'd gladly have someone else do it to someone else tho.

[ljm2002]

24. I'm sorry...

...no intent to lash out at anyone -- more of a wailing at the universe on my part. Just bemoaning the general state of affairs.

'Way back when -- say, 10 years ago -- Saddam was still a lousy brutal dictator and there were no-fly zones and Iraq was reeling from sanctions. But it was a modern secular society for all of that. And Iran, for all of its fulminating fundamentalist leadership, was having a very serious social movement towards more liberalism and a more western style of culture -- forces which could have worked to our advantage had we let them play out.

Instead we have destroyed Iraq, we have hardened positions everywhere in that part of the world, and we have alienated all but the most boot-licking of our allies around the world.

Sigh.

[soothsayer]

22. bingo!

[bryant69]

5. I would agree with you there and I apologize that my

brief statement was not expanded enough to cover your particular interest. But of course you have the right not to worship God in your own way.

Bryant

[Benhurst]

6. I remember during the FIRST Gulf war seeing one of the main hotels

Baghdad, a city being bombed by us, which had MERRY CHRISTMAS in large letters lit up on its side. How many such signs do you think were in Saudi Arabia at that time?

The Bush Crime Family's dear friends the Royal Saudi Family wouldn't even let our troops carry Bibles into their country, which our people had come to risk their lives defending.

[bryant69]

7. I'm not sure I see the connection

So you think religious liberty is a good idea for both Iraq and Saudi Arabia? I would agree.

Bryant

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. I Think It Would A Good Idea For Americans To Be Able To Eat Nothing But Pizza And Ice Cream And

Live To Be One Hundred...

[bryant69]

10. You are talking about physical impossibilities

What are the inhabitants of Iraq just animals to you? Incapable of change? Of reason?

At this point I will note that I do not favor imposing religious freedom on them by force of arms, merely that they should choose that for themselves.

Bryant

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. There Are Twenty Three Arab Nations

How many of them are secular democracies?

[bryant69]

13. how many of them should be? n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. It's Up To Them

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Yeah, Iraq Was More Secular Under Iraq

Saddam kept the religious fundamentalists in check until he needed to use Islam to rally the people against the infidel invaders...

But the idea that you can make Iraq into a liberal democracy by fiat is beyond stupid and that goal was abandoned three or four years ago...

[The2ndWheel]

11. More like 7 or 8 decades ago

The problem is that there was never any war to create Iraq. Even America needed a war against the people already here, a war against a controlling empire, and then a war against itself. Thrown in after that were a few wars that allowed us to reach beyond our shores, and here we are.

[Benhurst]

16. I doubt making Iraq into a liberal democracy was ever a goal. The goal all along was to

steal the Iraqis' oil and establish permanent American military bases. Osamma bin Laden had demanded America withdraw its military from Saudi Arabia, and guess what? That is exactly what has happened.

[Fleshdancer]

15. Which is basically what Saddam did.

I asked a soldier what he thought needed to happen in Iraq in order to get the troops out. His answer? Find another Saddam. How sad is that?

The obvious downside is that he was a tyrant. The upside is that he ruled secularly in order to keep the three factions of Islam from killing each other.

[davidwparker]

19. I heard that. And Americans think the French are arrogant! Mon Dieu.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. It Reminds Me Of Our Efforts To "Americanize" The Native Americans

That worked out really well...