MoveOn's big mistake: "General Betrayus"

[Richardo]

What could have been a compelling and widely read point-by-point refutation of the inflated assertions of progress by General Petraeus, was instead made into a GOP talking point and political hot potato.

Like the Dan Rather Bush/Texas ANG story of 2004, all of the public's attention was focused on the form of the message, not its content. As a result the GOP gets to go on a big crying jag and the Dems are put on the defensive.

A serious, thought-provoking piece neutralized. All because of junior-high level name-calling.

I rail against those noms-de-guerre on this board for precisely that reason. Any substantive argument that may appear is rendered trivial, if not laughable, by the use of such juvenile Michael Savage-Mark Levin-Rush Limbaugh style 'cleverness'.

There are better ways of expressing contempt and winning the debate. One is by concentrating on a recitation of facts, instead of pointing and sniggering.

-----------
Addendum on edit:

The political middle, the 40% the Dems must attract to get veto-proof margins in the House and Senate, are heavily invested in the symbols of our country: flag, military, etc. They consider themselves patriotic Americans. We do too, but ridiculing or defacing these symbols may get attention, but it will alienate rather than convert.

[yardwork]

1. I don't believe that the usual suspects would have given it respect, no matter the format.

Do you really think that Rush Limbaugh would have been thoughtful and respectful in his response under any circumstances? I don't.

[gatorboy]

20. Hear hear.

These are, after all the same folks that, during the Mark Foley page scandal, decided to go after the friggin' pages. Enough already.

[AndyA]

2. Honestly, I don't see what all the uproar is over the ad.

It spoke the truth.

It used a clever play on words.

And the good General's testimony pretty much proved the ad to be true, did it not? Petraeus is just another Loyal Bushie, doing what Bush tells him to do. He has betrayed the American people. He took an oath, and it wasn't to sniff Bush's butt.

[mvd]

10. It's like that recent GD thread "we know"

We do know the truth, and we shouldn't run away from it. Plus, it's a sound byte world. Emotional responses often work.

[cali]

31. It was cutsie, not clever and

fairly good ad got completely obliterated because of it. The name calling was merely one step up from calling him General Poopyhead.

"it's the framing, stupid"

[tridim]

99. DU has been using the term "BetrayUs" for weeks.

It was established as a play on words long before MoveOn published the ad.

[opihimoimoi]

152. Betrayus??? Think of who the Hell betrayed America and its BUSHCO...He didn't warn us of the 9/11

info...they were warned Bin Laden was coming...did he do anything? No...all he did was tee his fuckin golf ball.

Did he put into place the system to thwart attacks rec'c by the Hart Rudman commission? No

Did he do anything for NOLA? Only speeches..

All them GOP and Bush do ia act like they so smart ands strong... but the facts reveal a mega flaw.....they are led by a dufus.

[Hissyspit]

149. I only finally looked at the ad recently and I can't believe the fuss.

It made legitimate points and it wasn't even really name calling, but more a clever word play on the nature of this week's report the motivations of the people behind it.

As another poster stated, the real issue is why the Dems keep going on the defensive about stuff like this and ending up looking spineless and worse than stuff like this.

[OwnedByFerrets]

3. Its time we stopped being afraid of telling the truth........

I aint skeert of talking points.

[Nimrod2005]

4. Bullshit

[Snotcicles]

64. I second that Bullshit. I'm sick of milk-toast middle of the roaders. nt

[Richardo]

70. Nice retort

:eyes:

[TheWatcher]

118. The Truth Hurts.

Wear the shoes proudly. They fit you smashingly.

[Kutjara]

5. The big mistake is not the tone of the Moveon ad.

The big mistake is allowing the Repugs to put us on the "defensive." Some dems seem to suffer from an form of adolescent inferiority complex. We shout and make noise until an adult (Repug) calls us on it, then we get all self-conscious and defensive, as if we're not sure of our views and ashamed to be proved wrong.

The correct response would have been to hit the Repug talking points hard and keep hitting them. If things end up in a brawl on a few talk shows, so much the better. We'd finally be fighting for what we believe in, instead of shuffling our way into the Principal's office for a reprimand.

This is why we're accused of having no spine: Americans and Iraqis are dying in a fraudulent war, and we're in a tizzy about a little namecalling.

[CJCRANE]

14. Yes, the Dems should

"catapult the propaganda" right back at the neocons. This is no time to be subtle.

[Kutjara]

24. Only instead of "catapulting propaganda"...

...we could always try catapulting the truth.

[snappyturtle]

22. I agree with what you have said and plus the Dems needed to

put an end to the connection the press was making (plus Lieberman) between moveon.org and the party.

Kerry could have ended it by asking the question: "Is my name on that ad? The party's name?" End of conversation. And, of course, then he would be asked if he agrees with it and he could say,"It's what I said....it's moveon's ad." period. finito. end of conversation.

on edit: What I'm saying is that the Dems need TO TAKE CHARGE! When will they learn they cannot argue with repukes or try to reason with them Repukes are not thinkers.

[pnwmom]

27. Exactly. Instead of backing down, we should be shouting our agreement.

Bush and his administration betrayed us the day they led us into the war, and they've been betraying us ever since.

[Kutjara]

30. Yep, and remember...

...isn't it Chimpy who has all the funny nicknames for other world leaders, like "Pootie poot" Putin and so on? The press spun that as an endearing eccentricity. When Moveon does it, however, it's a gross insult.

[pnwmom]

32. They called Bill Clinton "Slick Willie" from the beginning of his campaign.

Name calling is a tried and true tactic for them, because it IS effective.

[JuniperLea]

49. Bingo!

And they have so many here believing that there is some sort of "high ground". All I can say to that is: Kool-Aid comes in many flavors.

[JuniperLea]

50. Fight fire with fire!

You got it so right!

[Cha]

121. America needs to buck up..

"This is why we're accused of having no spine: Americans and Iraqis are dying in a fraudulent war, and we're in a tizzy about a little namecalling."

Can you imagine viewing this from another country..say Canada? Or anywhere? If I were on the outside looking in I would think..."those poor poor things". "They have buSHITS running the World into the abyss in their name and all they can do is worrying about calling a flunky general on his betrayal. We are the country of Euphemisms.


Yes sir mr general, SIR!

[EFerrari]

6. MoveOn's media advisors have always been pretty stupid.

Their ads in the run up to the 2004 election challenged the creepiness aesthetic by any measure. That's what happens when you refuse to have a feedback loop. As a former advisor said to me, "they have no interest in input".

And that is a shame.

Childish name calling is not a good tactic. It makes even your supporters flinch. It's their right to do it and to fail.

[Gormy Cuss]

13. Yep. Punning on his name was childish and off-putting.

Maybe they've adopted the "no such thing as bad PR" approach used by some other organizations.

[EFerrari]

25. Point taken!

:rofl:

[TomInTib]

28. Almost everything about it was screwed up.

The timing absolutely stunk.

And the Betray-us thing was sophomoric and, from a marketing point of view, rankly amateurish.

Don't those people hire professional marketers?

Hell, I would do it pro bono.

[Richardo]

62. Thanks.

:patriot:

[aquart]

7. Uh, no.

Sorry to see someone so easily snowed. This is like believing they wouldn't have impeached Bill for jaywalking if they hadn't managed to find Monica.

They actually have you convinced that if you play nice and by their rules, they won't beat you up.

But they will. They have to. If they don't, they'll go to jail.

[Mz Pip]

8. I do have a problem

with making fun of people's names. It's so junior high. This is a war and people are dying. It's inappropriate to try to be funny or cleaver by making fun of someone's name. Really dumb move by Move On IMHO.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Atman]

15. It may be "junior high," but it is what THEY understand.

We don't need ads from MoveOn which just preach to the choir. But listen to all their heroes in the media, like Limbaugh...name calling is what the right does, and it is all they understand. They get their power rushes by thinking they're belitting people with their silly names. So I say, fuck 'em, turn it right back on them then laugh at them when they whine like babies. Will they ever "get it?" Doubtful. But we'll never gain anything, either, by simply rolling over and playing by their rules EVERY TIME.

.

[Mz Pip]

43. "THEY" aren't going

to listen to us no matter what we say or how we say it.

I think it's stupid when they call Clinton, "Klintoon" and call Obama, "Osama." It's stupid. It plays to their base and alientates everyone else.

Deal with the issues. This is serious stuff and needs to be addressed accordingly.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Richardo]

63. .

:thumbsup:

[johnfunk]

66. I have a problem with flag officers betraying our troops

... which is exactly what Petraeus did with his misleading and mendacious testimony.

MoveOn got it just right with the exception of one detail: getting a ranking Democrat to fire off an evening-newsworthy sound bite that would both debunk the wingnut whiners and underscore MoveOn's eloquently arhued copy in the ad.

[eridani]

107. You mean like "Slick Willie" ? n/t

[Mz Pip]

112. Yeah

Klintoon, Hitlery, Osama Obama.

Blech. Really sophomoric.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[blogslut]

9. Meh

Let em whine. The truth is painful. Force these armchair generals to drop their cheetos and face the fire.

[marlakay]

11. I think the ad is great

and that most americans no matter what the propaganda machine media says knows moveon is right that the general is being used as a tool for the pres.

people are waking up....from a long deep drugged sleep....

the rest of us need to be a little patient with them or it will be like a person who has been up since 5am and buzzing all over talking to someone who slept in till 10am saying come on lets go now, lets go lets go...

I am just as mad at all the stupid people who couldn't see it years ago. I knew the war was a mistake before we started it. But if we want to win the whole country we need to realize they are waking up and its just going to take some time for them to totally get all the propaganda drug out of their system.

[MadHound]

12. And what has being nice and playing by the rules gotten us?

Oh, yeah, tens of thousands dead, a country destroyed and our economy, military and government ruined.

The time for playing nice is past, long past.

[GeorgeGist]

16. RUBBISH

grow a spine and stop caving to the MSM.

[HEyHEY]

92. Grow a brain and stop using pathetic rebuttals

[VP505]

17. I couldn't disagree more

with the op, Move-On is the ONLY Democratic organization to stand up and speak out in a truthful way. General Petraeus has lost any credibility he might have had by allowing himself to be a YES MAN for Bu$h. Move-On didn't do that to him he did it to himself, Move-On didn't even come close to the low level of discourse that we have been getting out of the freepers and Reich for years now? How about the crap the Swiftboat Liars made up and used against Mr Kerry, listen to Coulter, or how about Limbaugh. What was said about Petraeus by Move-On is probably as close to the truth as we are going to get, like it or not, he did betray us, us being the American People.

[Richardo]

45. Yes, but the American people - the middle of the spectrum - reject the message

MoveOn comes off, not as a patriotic organization doing its best to bring the war to and end, but as a shrill group of bomb-throwers.

[Breeze54]

114. That's not true at all! - more people rated the troop increase a flop by 58 % to 36 %!!

AP Poll: Most See Iraq War As Failure

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iZkKBMKf9iitG3l25jMxPTEz4odQ

By ALAN FRAM – 2 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The public sees the Iraq war as a failure and thinks the U.S. troop buildup there has not worked, according to an Associated Press-Ipsos poll suggesting the tough sell President Bush faces in asking Congress and voters for more time.

The pessimism expressed by most people — including significant minorities of Republicans — contrasted with the brighter picture offered by Gen. David Petraeus. The chief U.S. commander in Iraq is telling Congress this week that the added 30,000 troops have largely achieved their military goals and could probably leave by next summer, though he conceded there has been scant political progress.

By 59 percent to 34 percent, more people said they believe history will judge the Iraq war a complete or partial failure than a success. Those calling it a failure included eight in 10 Democrats, three in 10 Republicans and about six in 10 independents, the poll showed — ominous numbers for a president who hopes to use a nationally televised address later this week to keep GOP lawmakers from joining Democratic calls for a withdrawal.

"It's time to turn the corner in my view, gentlemen," Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman and presidential candidate Joseph Biden, D-Del., told Petraeus and Ryan Crocker, U.S. ambassador to Iraq, as they testified to his panel Tuesday. "We should stop the surge and start bringing our troops home."

Underscoring the public's negativity, four times as many predicted the war in Iraq would be judged as a complete U.S. failure as the number who see a complete success, 28 percent to 7 percent.

When the Gallup Poll asked the same question in September 2006, 52 percent said the war will be judged as a partial or complete failure, seven points fewer than the AP-Ipsos survey.

"The enemy was in Afghanistan, and I believe going into Iraq we took our eye off the ball," said Ann Bock, 66, a retired teacher and Democratic-leaning voter from Edmond, Okla., who participated in the survey.

In the poll — taken in the days just before Petraeus' long-awaited appearance — more people rated the troop increase a flop than a success by 58 percent to 36 percent, with three in 10 Republicans joining majorities of Democrats and independents in foreseeing failure.

more...

[mitchtv]

18. Tough

the truth hurts. What will they think of us???? Is Carlos back?.
Everything is fair since Clinton

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Have you forgotten that the repukes NEVER play by the rules?

Not only that, but they write the rules to fit their agenda. Even when Dems have the majority in both houses, they dictate to the Dems.

Playing nicey nice and being polite is not going to end this war.

[Richardo]

Have YOU forgotten that we're not trying to convert diehard Republicans?

I mean, it would be nice, but we're trying to reach the malleable middle. Looking like hysterical teenagers ain't gonna do it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Speak for yourself

How the hell can anyone still be in the middle? Either you support the war or you don't. There is no middle.

I'm working on Congress.

[goodhue]

21. I think the ad rocked and the big mistake was accepting right-wing talking point, hook line & sinker

Jefrrey Feldman explains . . .

Jeffrey Feldman
How Right-Wing Lie About MoveOn Ad Became The Story
Posted September 11, 2007 | 08:38 AM (EST)

Weekly Standard Lies About MoveOn Ad, Media Falls For It

Pay attention, America: this is how the right-wing uses the media to manipulate the truth and silence dissent against the Iraq war.

Even before MoveOn.org's ran its controversial ad about General Petraeus in the New York Times, The Weekly Standard published an article by Peter Hegseth, Executive Director of the organization Vets for Freedom. The headline of the article accused the MoveOn.org ad of calling Petreaus a 'traitor' ("MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"). The only problem: the word 'traitor' appears nowhere in the MoveOn.org ad nor anywhere on the MoveOn.org page about the ad. It is Hegseth's article that introduced the word 'traitor' into the story -- an outright lie intended to silence dissent against the war. Less than 24 hours after the Hegseth piece ran and the MoveOn.org ad appeared, the mainstream media picked up the Weekly Standard's lie and repeated it until it became the story.

* * *

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-feldman/how-rightwing-lie-about-_b_63888.html

[JuniperLea]

51. You got it so right!

Seems Kool-Aid comes in many flavors, and a lot of it is being swilled right here in our humble DU halls...

[pnwmom]

23. A "recitation of the facts" is the usual Democratic style, and it doesn't work.

Not when going against opponents who never hesitate to appeal to the emotions. They're not sticking to a merely factual approach, so we can't either, unless we want to keep losing elections.

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/interviews/075

From an interview with Drew Westen, the author of "The Political Brain: The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation"

SNIP

The Democratic Party had an idea for years that if you just lay out the right policies and positions, with the facts and figures to back them up, people would be rational and will realize who is really supporting their self-interest -- essentially, present the numbers and they will come. If you think about how the brain actually works -- it don't work like that. Our rational sides and our emotional sides are intricately intertwined. We make more decisions based solely on reason, and we make a few decisions based solely on emotion. Most of the time, what we're doing is we're bringing those things together.

SNIP

Right now, what we have is one side that can make people feel something. In every election, they pick out a group to hate. Or they claim that the other side is weak on national defense. The other side never calls them on their hate campaigns, and cowers in the corner much of the time when they're told that they're weak on national defense.

If they don't throw a strong right hook, and demonstrate that they can be strong, people get a very cool message about what the two parties stand for. For example, the Democratic Congress repeatedly subpoenas Alberto Gonzales, and then signs into law a wire-tapping bill that gives him the right to read their e-mails. If the American people come away with that believing that the Democrats are fearful in the face of aggression by a bully, I think they're drawing the correct conclusion. If and when the Democrats decide that they're going to start showing some guts in response to Republican hate appeals and terror appeals, then I think the American people will come along with them. But if they continue to respond by cowering in the corner any time the other side threatens them by saying you don't support our troops, or you're weak against terror -- if they cower in the corner, they're simply illustrating exactly what the Republicans are saying about them, and they deserve to lose.

SNIP

[AspenRose]

37. That's true....the GOP is notorious for attacking Democrats on their strengths

...and that is a Dem strength....researching and using facts to refute arguments. Unfortunately, the average GOPer doesn't have the attention span to appreciate that, and usually treats facts (and just about anything intellectual) with disdain anyhow.

It's a strange day when you hear that someone like Ed Schultz is *joining* MoveOn.org based on the ad (!)....

[elfin]

26. I agree - would have had more people reading the whole thing

without the label.

While we here on DU use it all the time (is that where MoveOn got it from?), it can be a bit shocking for the first time to those who see a smart, handsome, talented fellow who SEEMS to be doing his best to salvage our investment of lives and treasure in this misbegotten tragedy.

The Betrayus name in the headline was offputting to the public and has further pegged MoveOn as some sort of lunatic fringe.

Perhaps designed as shock therapy? I don't know -- but I think they miscalculated and wasted a lot of money in the ad and it was only read by those of us in "the choir" and lambasters to use it in wingnut fodder.

[pnwmom]

29. No Repub would have bothered to read the whole thing

with or without the label.

It's the people in the middle we need to appeal to, and many of them are angry about the war and WANT us to take a strong stand.

[mvd]

33. I agree

I just see it as good combination of the attention getter along with intelligent argument.

[Richardo]

34. I think it alienates the middle.

Just like flying the flag upside down, and other stunts.

The middle considers themselves patriotic Americans and are invested in its symbols, even if we are not (and I am). Ridiculing those symbols may get attention, but it won't get converts.

[mvd]

36. I don't think it will

The Repukes would have never succeded if they worried about what will alienate the middle. Some analysts might wonder if it feeds the "Dems don't support the troops" line, but even without a lot of media coverage, people know that Bush picks his stooges.

[Richardo]

42. I disagree - they sucessfully co-opted ownership of the symbols

Plus, they pandered to the middle, at least in 2000 - that's what the 'compassionate conservatism' crap was all about.

[mvd]

44. No, they didn't always pander

RW hosts/groups were all over the place insulting the Democrats. I really don't think one name calling will hurt in an anti-war atmosphere.

[NashVegas]

41. We Can't Appeal to the Middle By Caving Into Republican/Conservative Bullies

The middle wants someone big and strong, so they won't have to do much thinking or fighting. It's that simple.

[mvd]

47. You can't get anywhere being nice with these people

The neocons/wingnuts are authoritarian bullies.

[Richardo]

56. You're not being to THEM, you're trying to appeal to the persuadable middle.

...is my point.

[mvd]

58. I'm talking about as a general tactic: don't be nice

The middle has seen us as the same too much on the war. A lot of that "middle" already wants to change course.

[KurtNYC]

157. The ad had impact -- and the controversy around it has provided a

counter-point to the the infomercial that was the Petreaus hearing.

Polls get done and they move around based on what ever happened this week -- that's your beloved middle at work. People who change their mind on a weekly basis and are probably basically spectators.

I think there is value in "preaching to the choir" because it is the choir that keeps things going. Not the wishy washy am-news-ia middle.

[stimbox]

35. You know what is worse?

The DLCers picking up the GOP/MSM critcism and running with it is way worse than a little name calling.

Play nice. Oh we musn't offend anyone... :sarcasm:

Where the fuck was the Democratic party's ad?

Where the fuck was your mainstream middle of the road anti-war group's ad?

[redqueen]

38. I wouldn't expect anything else from the DLC/M$M. n/t

[Me.]

39. As Eli Said

If they had done the same type of ad when Powell went to the UN, it would have rec'd the same criticism. Yet we all now know how faulty that report was, yet everyone was polite. Perhaps less of it would have kept us put of the war. Petraeus' report was stage crafted to keep us in a war that is already a failure. I believe that the lives that will be lost in the future are worth the loss of civil discourse, which hasn't worked since * got in office.

And you know, I wonder where the hubbub is over Ari Fleischer's nasty little ad which promotes furtherance of the war and beyond?

We are at the point where the squeaky wheel seems to be all the leverage we have left.

[judaspriestess]

40. general betrayus is a fitting title

he should wear it, embrace it, bathe in it, sleep in it because that is what he is. The double standards are beyond the pale.

[mvd]

52. I'm not advocating being as vicious as the Repukes

But you don't have to be that vicious in order to still get attention.

[Disturbed]

55. A double edged sword.Without the title would the ad have

received any attention? Most likely, not.

[Marr]

46. I agree with you. Those names are juvenile and sap credibility from the message.

[mudesi]

48. SIGH!

[losthills]

53. Mistake?? Screw that...

And screw the flagwavers, and screw the lying general...

[Bluzmann57]

54. I agree with you BUT...

There have been so many other "nonpartisan" groups who have ripped Democrats that it is hard to fault MoveOn. Howard Dean, the chairman of the DNC, should come out and emphatically state that the Democratic Party has nothing to do with MoveOn, no funding or anything like that. He should say that MoveOn is an independent organization, not affiliated with any political party and they are free to do what they wish, just as the swift boat veterans for "truth" were. And Pelosi, Reid, and all other Democrats should say the same thing. MoveOn should say that as well. Will all this take place? It's not likely.

[mvd]

60. I really wish civil discourse worked better

Unfortunately, it's become a not-much-time for the news world, and many people don't pay attention unless something stands out.

[Richardo]

84. ...and I agree with you.

A consistent disavowal would be helpful. I just think MoveOn wasted an opportunity.

[HughMoran]

57. Adding that made it more widely read and known about

I think it was a stroke of genius.

[chaumont58]

59. Move-on doesn't give a rat's fuck what repukes say

Why would they? They don't get money from repukes. If some brain-dead puke has his panties all twisted up, so what. If some weak livered Dem(or fake Dem, such a lieberpuke) starts carrying puke water, fuck 'em.

[Jed Dilligan]

61. Hmm. Long-term, I would rather chip away at the 40% plurality

who worship authority and uniforms than pander to them. But you may be right tactically.

[coco77]

67. He is a general ,,

not a god, is there some type of rule that says because someone is in the military they can be criticize or can do no wrong. These people need to shut up with all of the comments they have made about Bill Clinton and others...

[Richardo]

68. Way to appeal to the middle

You really don't want that 40%, do you? Well, have fun being ideologically pure :thumbsup:

[in_cog_ni_to]

78. Fuck the middle. The middle needs to move to the LEFT if they want to be

in the party. THEY need to ADAPT! We Lefties were here first...isn't that how it works? You move to a new country is everyone in that country suppose to adapt to YOUR culture or is it the other way around? If the middle doesn't like the Democratic party THE WAY IT IS....they need to start their own damn party! Just like the religious right needs to start their own party if they don't want to be a part of a repuke party that accepts gays and abortion (should that ever happen). The religious right took over the Repuke party and NOW the party is paying for it (thankfully!)...Foley, Vitter, Craig....If people want to be in the Democratic Party, they need to just accept the fact that it's not perfect, but it sure as hell is better than the alternative! Moderates need to adapt to the party platform...the party doesn't adapt to them!

Clinton took our party so far to the center it was almost conservative! THAT is why we lost so big in 2002. People couldn't tell the difference between the 2 parties, so why not go with the party in the WH who will keep us safe and are more Patriotic.:eyes:

It's time for the Democratic Party to be the Democratic Party and stop being so damn cameleon-like.....changing just to please the "sensible center", the "moderates", the "middle". Enough is enough. We need to be who we are and if THE MIDDLE doesn't like it, go somewhere else.

Flamesuit on, but I really don't care if you don't like my post. I'm a LIBERAL and PROUD of it! and I'm not changing my stances to make THE MIDDLE happy. They can go be moderate in their OWN party.

[Richardo]

83. I'm liberal and proud of it, too.

But there are many Americans who are not, and the Democrats need their support to govern.

[sufrommich]

101. The party platform is hardly

far to the left, and never has been.

[Breeze54]

WooHoo!!! Right On!!!!!

K & R'd your post!! :rofl:

Great job and you are sooooooo right!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[coco77]

85. so, what you are saying is..

fuck the country, while he is helping his lying ass president to destroy the country, and all because he is a general...

[Richardo]

86. Um...no.

Where did you get that?

[Richard Steele]

91. Over 70% of the USA wants the Occupation ended. Your "middle" is fiction. nm

[Richardo]

100. I'll bet 40% are offended by the term 'Betrayus'

Which was (and remains) my original point.

[MODemocrat]

143. "We can support the troops, without supporting the President"

NEWT GINGRICH said day after day during Bill Clinton's presidency. So to Hell with the republicans being upset about their angelic General being treated like the monkey see, monkey do he is. If the shoe fits, wear it!!
O8) :nopity:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

69. I disagree. The attack on Moveon.org by all the Repub pols simply shows how pathetically their whole

party marches from a RNC/Rove fax/script.

If it wasn't "Gen. Betrayus" it would be some other thing they'd be shouting in unison over.

Not a big deal IMHO.

[Richardo]

71. Would have been a lot more effective without it....

...but, they got their cheap shot in, so it's all good, I guess.

[in_cog_ni_to]

72. BULLSIT. MoveOn told the TRUTH. Don't like the TRUTH? Too fucking bad! GO MOVEON!!!!!!

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

It's about time someone stood up to this lying group of murdering rat bastards that are running our government...and that goes for ALL of them. It's not just the repukes anymore. John Kerry came out against the ad. HOW STUPID CAN HE BE?! I saw a Congressman (supposed Democrat) on C-SPAN yesterday who also denounced the ad. The Democrats are fucking WIMPS. I'm sick of them.

[Richardo]

74. I take it you're not recommending the thread.

Good luck with that permanent minority...Is 15% small enough for ya?

[in_cog_ni_to]

79. You guessed right. Our party will be just fine without the sensible center. Thank you very much!

GO LIBERAL LEFTIES!:bounce:

[Richardo]

80. If by 'fine' you mean relieved of the burden of governing, you're absolutely right

The party will be 'fine' :thumbsup:

[coco77]

160. You tell em...

[frylock]

87. good luck with that status quo..

you know why people think the dems are pussys? Because of SHIT like this. There was nothing over the top about this ad, and all the dems are tripping over their cranks to renounce it. Fuck the MALLABLE MIDDLE!!! As someone above already pointed out, if you're in the middle on the war, then you're never going to change your mind. Continually playing to this "mythical middle" is going to cost these FUCKING IDIOTS the white house. Progressives are SICK AND FUCKING TIRED of voting for the lesser of two evils. The dems have taken MY VOTE for granted for far too long.

[Richardo]

89. No one can govern without the middle.

MoveOn should target THEM, not the choir. Wasted money and opportunity to get in a cheap shot insult. That's the maturity that will win us the White House for SURE. :bounce:

[Richard Steele]

93. What, is "middle" your word of the day? You're waving around a LOT in this thread.

Over 70% of the USA wants the Iraq Occupation ENDED.
Around 20-24% support B*sh blindly.

So where is this "40% Middle" you keep referring to? :shrug:

[Richardo]

96. Well about 49% of them are still not voting for Democrats

If the Dems want a veto-proof majority to get on with a real agenda, they need more.

[Richard Steele]

124. The way to get MORE is to show a resolve to do what over 70% want done.

Not to tiptoe around accomplishing nothing, for fear
that the Repubs will call them mean names.

[frylock]

127. the problem is that the middle has moved a little too far to the right..

it's time to bring it back to center.

[Raine]

73. TOTALLY agree

I'm glad that I stopped donating to them cause these kind of tactics do more harm than good...they took the serious discusssion away and turned it into a juvenile name calling stunt. x(

[Richardo]

75. They're the PETA of politics!

That just came to me :D

[flyarm]

77. and what did the swift boating of Kerry do??..and how juvenile did the american people take that?n/t

[Raine]

88. It ruined him but

at this time this turned the discussion about the war into an accusation against the Democrats.

[flyarm]

95. ONLY IF YOU LET IT!..it is making me more resolved to stand for truth and i am donating to Move on

every time those assholes bring it up..soooo... are you making it more important than the lies of this general and this administration?? hell... i am not..it is making me more resolved.. to get this shit stopped!..if they think that is so damned important, then they are worried as hell about it and they damn well should be!

fuck them!

and fuck that liar general and this lying white house and those lying sacks of shit repiglican congress that think an ad is more important than a damn general lying his ass off!

i have seen this once in my lifetime during nam..i will be damned if any of these thugs will bend my truth..

the truth is... Move On is right..and they have been... it is the repigs that are the damn liars! and have lied for 6 years now..fuck them!

turn it around and if the dems had any balls they would be bringing up the propaganda by Ari ..it is about damn time we hold them to the same "standard" they hold us to!

since they own the media and the media has lied it 's ass off for these pricks..well how about a little taste of their own medicine..fuck them!

fly

[flyarm]

76. where was the reich wing anger over the Swift Boating of Kerry?????? where was their disingenuous

anger then?????? call this phony assed repug anger what it is ..total bullshit!

where is their anger over Ari Fleischer propaganda commericals..ya know bullshit is still only bullshit..and this is a little late for their so called "standards" to be brought up!!

fuck them and i am donating to Move On for everytime the damn repigs bring it up!

fuck them..the truth is bugging them..but the lies are killing our soldiers and Iraqi's!

fuck them all to hell now..

and it would do the Dems a little good to bring up the propaganda by Ari!

fly

oh and ps..remember all the flip flops that were brought to Kerry rallys!..i remember them well!! and the assholes screaming about his medals!! yes indeed i remember them well!

[in_cog_ni_to]

82. I love you, flyarm!

DITTO every word you typed!!!!!!!

[swag]

81. Good post. Thanks.

MoveOn fucked it up again, and made MoveOn almost as big an issue at the hearings as the surge.

I quit sending them money and unsubscribed from their mailings some time ago.

[robinlynne]

102. in other words it was successful. The surge, my friend, is a fake excuse to kill

more people for money. or didn't you get that.

[swag]

104. Tasty convolution.

[Cleita]

90. Seems to me they got a lot of free publicity and people

reading it that probably wouldn't have. It seems like a smart move to me. The message is still there and thinking people will notice it. As far as the 25% who are still drinking the Kool-Aid, who cares.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richardo]

103. Did you even read the post?

Or am I a troll because I disagree with MoveOn's approach (not their message mind you)?

Might big tent you got there, Trotsky.

[Downtown Hound]

97. Blah, blah, blah

The polite manners protest police are at it again.

I wonder when you people are going to wake up and realize that the right is going to find ways to criticize us no matter what. Stop doing their work for them.

[Richardo]

105. I wonder when YOU'LL wake up and realize I was not talking about the right.

Am I not allowed to disagree with a group's approach? I'm supporting the message, if you'll read beyond the subject line.

[Downtown Hound]

106. The hell you're not, and I read your whole post, and many others

You're so fucking afraid of what they're going to say. OH NO! The Republicans are making a fuss! We need to stop being so loud and tone everything down.

You know, in all of your ramblings about the middle that you are trying so hard to capture, the one thing you haven't figured out is that middle America loves A FUCKING FIGHTER! They watch football, wrestling, war movies, ultimate fighting championships. They drive big gas guzzling cars that are totally impractical 99% of the time simply because it makes them feel powerful.

Get this through your head: you will never attract middle America if you keep cowering under the constant fear of what others will think. They don't don't follow spinelessness. They follow courage. Fight for what you believe in, and don't quit. That is when you will win them over.

[EFerrari]

110. That still doesn't address the problem of MoveOn's

stupid ads. That's not courage, that's just stupidity.

[Downtown Hound]

115. Why, because it called the general a name?

Please, it absolutely astounds me that some of you are getting so worked up over this. No wonder we constantly let the right frame the debate. Too many liberals would rather tear each other apart over something so trivial than stand together and face the fire. What we are currently doing here on this board, tearing each other apart over an ad (one that I happen to like by the way and found it to be completely inoffensive), it's this type of thing that drives middle America away. Not moveon's ad. Middle America takes a look at spectacles like this and sees a bunch of squabbling children as opposed to warriors and fighters for truth and justice in the struggle against fascism.

I stand with moveon. Call out these lying pigs for what they are, and make no apologies.

[EFerrari]

122. I haven't broken a sweat, thanks.

MoveOn needs some serious help with their ad buys. And, they've alienated so many of us in their immediate community with their bad behavior, good luck to them finding anyone who will take them on.

[Breeze54]

117. You must've only read the headline grabber. It's based in facts, as we all saw today!

Go read my post with all the evidence.

[EFerrari]

126. You know, you guys are right and I am wrong.

MoveOn has done important work and I need to stfu about my personal gripes.

:)

[Breeze54]

129. Here -->

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1786807&mesg_id=1786807

;)

[MrMickeysMom]

135. It's not stupidity, it's getting the message out, and I'd say they did it well! EOM

[frylock]

119. awesome FUCKING post!!!

[Downtown Hound]

150. Gracias!

I'm quite fond of it myself actually. Modesty is not my strong suit.

:hi:

[robinlynne]

98. So organize thousands of people and take out a "better" ad! just the way you

like it, oh mighty one who knows exactly how it should be done.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

108. That's silly

it's a valid point

[robinlynne]

111. I'm not being silly. We have to end this war. ANYONE trying to end it has my support.

Those who sit on the sidelines bitching about why moveon or code pink aren't doing it "RIGHT" need to GET TO WORK and stop the war. Do it better if moveon's ad wasn't good enough for you. Otherwise they are not part of the solution.

[flyarm]

120. i agree with you robinlynne..100%!!!! eom

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

123. wow - ok

MoveOn can't make any mistakes I see

[robinlynne]

158. not true. I have problems with moveon. But yesterday, they stood up to

Petraus.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. If MoveOn came with flowers and candy

and offered to drive the Great Conquring Caesar around they would have gotten excoriated, get it into your head, IT DOES NOT MATTER what moveon does... they, and you by extension, are the enemy

[Junkdrawer]

113. "Widely read" my ass....

It would have gotten ZERO mainstream media coverage. DemocracyNow might have mentioned it in news headlines.

On DU, two or three die-hards would have tried to keep it kicked, but it would have sunk like a rock. It might have gotten 10-15 recommendations. The "usual suspects" (stealth pro-Bush posters) would have probably let it alone as it would have not been even worthy of an attack and flame wars might have given it more exposure than desired.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

116. Gen. Betrayus - not name calling, rather a more fitting name. Call a spade a spade.

General Betrayus - name says it all.

[Warren Stupidity]

125. The important thing is to always

Accept The Framing

Thanks for playing along. This certainly is not about the fact that Patraeus Lied, no it is about the fact MoveOn dared to say that Patraeus lied.

[sendero]

128. Count me..

... in total agreement. I could not believe that they ruined their entire point with a stupid pun.

There is a time for that kind of crap and a time to stow it. These people have the political instincts of a slug IMHO.

[superkia]

130. Whatever Americans have been doing isnt working so

I will use the term betrayus because it fits and we need to do something to get across to people. I applaud them for trying to stand up for the people, its more than most of us have done. It also got negative media attention and with a closed media, anything that can have a chance to make a point and get onto the controlled media out to Americans is ok by me.

And they were right in their description to me, even our representatives didn't trust his judgment.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

131. I think it all comes down to this:

Was the ad designed for the "choir" - so that they could high five each other and slap each other on the back for calling Petreaus his nick name on the blogs

or

Was it designed to sway public opinion with well thought out factual refutations of the gentlmans record and why his testimony might be suspect or at least taken with a grain of salt

If the goal was the first, it was successful.

If the goal was the second, it was a disaster.

[swag]

132. Goodness me. Very nicely said.

[Richardo]

154. I wish I had put it so succinctly.

:thumbsup:

[autorank]

133. I agree with your point on the word games with his name.

That's a real tin ear. It made me uncomfortable when I saw it around but I hadn't paid attention to MoveOn for so long I had no idea what the dust up was about. Thanks.

I do not agree with "veto proof margins" concept. That's more three card monty froom the Money Party (non partisan group of both aprties). We lost the FISA expansion bill with the help of 16 Democratic Senators, 16! They don't care about the issue, they really don't care much about any issue vital to that 40% you talk about. They consistently vote with Bush on the biggies - tax cuts, Iraq/Iran, bankruptcy, etc. "Veto Proof" is just another word for give us more money for campaigns.

The serious middle, and it's really a more populist group than "middle," bought a "lemon" in 2006 and they know it. I don't quite know how those candidates were selected but they're sure not reflective of the majority of citizens, vast majority, who want the nonsense to stop period. Richardson broke the code and told how 3 months is viable but the public already knew that.

We had a golden opportunity - a real opposition - and we blew it. We'll be lucky to get the chance again. But what candidates will follow; more of the same "Blue Dogs" who screw us every big vote? No reason not to think so.

[lonestarnot]

134. I have a bigger one, how bout that challenge to the last thieved election?

Don't I recall how they just rolled over for dead on that?

[omega minimo]

137. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

... nationwide house parties all the way up to the election and then--
















NUTHIN :thumbsdown:

[lonestarnot]

138. Yep and now people are whining when they finally get something fucking right.

:headshake:

[omega minimo]

139. choose your delusion

we're swimmin in it

[lonestarnot]

140. I prefer a hot damn bath.

[EFerrari]

142. That happened. I've resented it for years.

But, it's a glass half full/empty deal. At least they're doing SOMETHING. Yeah, their ads could be smarter and their emails are too long by half. Still, they're doing SOMETHING.

[omega minimo]

136. Don't ignore the fact

that the right wing media will twist and pervert whatever is said. And fixate "all of the public's attention was focused on the form of the message, not its content."



On this of all days, people are tired of the charade. "Betray us" indeed.

[OzarkDem]

141. Do you have some data on that?

Is there a poll showing the so-called "political middle" would continue to support Bush and the GOP because of that ad? If not, your claim is nothing more than opinion.

Have confidence in your party. Don't believe everything the GOP tells you.

[Drix]

144. I Want To See Over the Top!

I'm really tired of the Alan Colmes of the world wetting their pants everytime a Dem refuses to repeat, "Thank you sir, may I have another!". We have a right, no, a duty, to tell the unvarnished truth as we see it.

The Miss Manners routine hasn't gotten us very far. If we as Democrats keep doing what we've been doing. We're going to keep getting what we've been getting. And they are going to call us weak on defense, unpatriotic, not supporting the troops, etc. no matter what we do or say anyway. So get used to it.

[Bennyboy]

145. There are a bunch of right wingers on another board I post on....

and this morning they were all over this. How could they. Calling a general a traitor etc. They were pissed off. Obviously listening to the radio before posting.

But a funny thing happened. They were told point by point how they were being lied to and how much bullshit was in the report. we led them to facts. Articles. etc.

By the end of the day they were all "maybe we ARE being betrayed'.

Keep in mind I have been arguing with the same bunch of right wingers for six years. And nothing ever got through to them. UNTIL TODAY. And it all started with them posting about how pissed they were about moveon and what a communist radical organization they were. now they know that the report was at best cooked and they also know how Moveon operates and what they are trying to do.

So MISSION ACCOMPLISHED as far as I am concerned.

It is time to start playing the game that the Limbaughs and o'reillys play. No more flowers and candy. Call em out every single time.

[begin_within]

146. I like the ad and the pun. The right is jealous because the left is finally using their playbook.

[deacon]

147. No mistake. n/t

[Hissyspit]

148. It said "OR General Betray Us?"

There was a question mark on it and you are misrepresenting it. There also was, in the ad, refutation of statements made.

[Skittles]

151. THE BASTARD DID BETRAY US

OOOH I forgot - we are supposed to play nice with people who drag us into war and those who SCHEME TO KEEP US THERE

[Vinca]

153. They had every right to run the ad, but, in retrospect, it would have

been more productive to do a full page, point-by-point analysis of the mess we're in rather than spend $70,000 for name calling. An analysis would have taken the wind out of the Republicans, but the ad that was run energized them. I might agree with the sentiment, but in the end the ad came off as rather juvenile.

[Ganja Ninja]

155. Sorry but I think it's time we called a spade a spade.

I'm sick and tired of these hand picked generals getting a free ride when it comes to discussion of their political loyalties. There's a reason General Petraeus has his job and not some other Generals. He passed a loyalty test. The same type of loyalty test that is universally applied to everyone in this administration and to all their benefactors. Loyalty to Bush is number 1 with these guys. Questioning the loyalties of this man or any other partisan Bushie is only appropriate given the circumstances.

[BlueIris]

156. I think it was bad, but not as bad as "We bought it; we own it."

That was kinda when I broke with MoveOn.

[GCP]

159. I agree with Richardo - this was totally sophomoric

And the people who are upset with this view, who keep on with the "well THEY do it" defence, need to grow up and realize the majority of people in this country hate the name calling on both sides. Moveon has lost a lot of credibility because of this IMHO.