Where the FUCK is Stormin' Norman when we need him?

[Redstone]

I may be mistaken, but it was the consensus of our dinner-table conversation last night that General Schwarzkopf saw very clearly several years ago, that the time for getting out was good, and took that opportunity. And did so because he did NOT want to be part of what he saw coming.

Has he been heard from lately? It doesn't seem that he has, and in my own insular opinion, it's because he'd never want to be enmeshed in the clusterfuck that doomed his old superior General Powell.

It seems to me that the old guy would never have allowed himself to be the front man for yesterday's charade.

Am I wrong? Is he perhaps the last truly honorable general we'll have had?

Redstone

[Selatius]

1. I remember he had some reservations about the plans for invasion.

Mainly, it seemed to fly in the face of the original Powell Doctrine that said you had to go in with massive force and advanced preparation. He stated as much. Rumsfeld went in light and obviously didn't have a post-heavy combat plan to deal with the country. Beyond that, I haven't heard him speak in public about anything beyond that.

[Redstone]

2. I'll bet you $100 that he's just as pissed off as we are about the whole Iraq debacle.

He strikes me as that kind of guy. But if he speaks out, it changes nothing, so I'd do as he has, were I in his place, and let it go.

Redstone

[Selatius]

4. If he has spoken out, it's probably done in closed circles.

I'm pretty sure he's paid a visit to the Pentagon several times to impart his own advice to senior officers, as have people like Wesley Clark and Gen. Batiste (sp?) and more, but if they don't listen to him, he may have reasoned that taking his grievances public wouldn't really help the immediate situation of the soldiers on the ground. Of course, different people come to different conclusions, which is why some leaders have spoken out, while some others have decided to remain quiet.

[Redstone]

6. Your scenario is pretty damn likely. I'd NEVER criticize him for going into that

lion's den and figuring out that he can't say anything that would change anything.

I believe that he's a good man. He fought in Viet Nam after all, and how many of the media-star generals of today have done that?

Redstone

[Rosa Luxemburg]

19. desert caution

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52450-2003Jan27

[Clark2008]

16. You mean the misnamed "Clark Doctrine."

General Clark prepared that. Powell adopted. Powell was a four-star and took credit for the work of his three-star.

Look it up.

[Nickster]

3. That's not the way that I remember it. He's no Petraeus obviously, but everything I ever saw

said that he had no idea why he was called off and thought he should have been let loose to take Baghdad. Alot of us, at least the guys I was around in the Army at that time, thought the same thing.

Here's an interview from PBS, looks like he towed the GHWB line afterwards, but I swear I remember him saying different during that time frame.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/schwarzkopf/7.html

[Redstone]

7. I'll bet you remember correctly, PBS interview or not.

Redstone

[madrchsod]

5. he was`t in favor of bush`s war...

i bet he had some really choice words about the boys adventure

[DURHAM D]

8. Norman, Jr. is a blow hole.

He wanted to quit Iraq early so he could get home and parade down main street.

He makes his living as part of a dog and pony show, along with other right wingers, that charge large amounts of money to make speeches to gatherings of Republican business men around the country.

Also, he was the second General Schwarzkopf to muck around in the middle east. His father was sent by Ike to help the Brits overthrow the democratically elected leader of Iran in the early 1950s. It was about oil then as now.

[TomInTib]

9. Screw Schwartzkopf.

I distincly recall him telling a group of journalists in Kuwait that If they thought it was about oil, they were in the wrong business.

While he may have been a brilliant strategist, he was a tool of GHWB who has, susequently, made millions off of "Desert Storm".

And never forget that Baker and Glaspie (and the WH) greenlighted Saddam's adventure into Kuwait.

Never forget that.

[DURHAM D]

10. Military strategist - you are being kind.

Norman had 500,000 U.S. troops and 160,000 allied troops. Hell, I could have planned and won that dust up myself and I have never even played soldier.

[TomInTib]

13. Actually, he was well-regarded in military circles.

Personally, I think he is Horseshit.

[happyslug]

15. And the plan was set by his predecessor, dismissed for telling the truth

I forget the Air Force General's name, but he made the plan for Desert Storm and told reporters we were going to bomb the hell out of Iraq and then unleash the ground forces. This was to much for Bush Sr, so he was fired and Schwartzkopf was given command. I can NOT remember the Air Force General's name, but to replace him the Command Structure in he Middle East was changed so that Schwartzkopf was in supreme Comma nf (He had Commanded the Pentagon's section regarding the Middle East since 1988).

Now the following site mentioned long term plans for war in the Middle East and how Schwartzkopf changed them to be more like Desert Storm became (This was in the years between 1988 and 1991):
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Swain/swain.asp

Basically the plan was the result of years of theorizing about wars in the Middle East more than the result of one's General's thinking.

[vanlassie]

11. And Wasn't He The One Who Tried To Convince

the American public that the military was capable of "surgical strikes?"

That was such a load of bullshit, and we ate it up. If we wanted, we could justify what was being done in our name by believing the military could drop big 'ole bombs and never kill any civilians!!! He was lying to us.

[Skittles]

12. he was a repuke whore

absolutely

[David Zephyr]

14. Norman Schwarzkopf's father engineered the 1953 coup in Iran against the elected leader.

Redstone, you and your dining partners might all want to read "All the Shah's Men" before you start singing the praises of Norman Schwarzkopf as his father, along with Kermit Roosevelt, Allen and John Dulles and Winston Churchill maliously plotted to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Iran and replaced him with the playboy and torturing Shah.

The blowback from that completely stupid action has been at the root of half the problems in the Middle East ever since.

Check out "All The Shah's Men" by Harvard Press.

And after you all read it, invite me over for some good cookin'.

DZ

[Dukkha]

17. He wanted to annihilate Bagdad

Q: Had you totally destroyed it (the Republican Guard)?

A: Well, yeah. I mean it is a question of how do you define the word destroy. ... You know we didn't destroy them to the very last tank. And again, this is a point that I think may be lost on a lot of people. That was a very courageous decision on the part of the president to also stop the offensive. ... Frankly, my recommendation had been continue the march ... and make it a battle of annihilation. And the president made the decision that we should stop at a given time, at a given place that did leave some escape routes open for them to get back out, and I think it was a very humane decision.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/iraq/nirq053.htm

[Rosa Luxemburg]

18. he also said we shouldn't go back to Iraq

he also said on TV that Al Queada DIDN'T do 9/11

however, he seemed to change his tune later when the Bush cabal got to him

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52450-2003Jan27

[opihimoimoi]

20. Certainly it looks the Gen was the Last of the Best....